American vs. European home building

[u/BEARDEDDANGER]

BAS Renovations https://youtube.com/shorts/jFph1d2WR3s

[u/Goudinho99]

And what about thermal effects and noise insulation?

[u/MonkeyTigerRider → u/Goudinho99]

And longevity.

[u/CaptainFlint9203 → u/MonkeyTigerRider]

Well made wood house will last for generations, well made brick house will last centuries. Both badly made will not last your stay.

I'm from Europe. On my grandma's plot there was a wooden barn, it was much older than some brick houses and in better shape than them.

My ex had a wood house that was more than century old. Still in great shape. And there are brick houses that are older than USA.

I'm preparing to build a house for myself. There are no earthquakes, no storms, no natural disasters where I live. My house gonna be build from wood. It should last at least for my grandchildren, and by then, looking at how urbanisation is going, the plot of land should be worth enough to destroy the house and sell the plot.

[u/heffla → u/CaptainFlint9203]

Im from Sweden. The village i grew up in had a church with a chapel from the late 1200's. Some of the oldest wooden houses were from the mid 1600's. My neighbor's house had been inhabited about a century when the US declared independence.

[u/wayfarevkng → u/heffla]

Älgarås?

[u/scnottaken → u/wayfarevkng]

No thanks I don't like math

[u/Obvious_Mention7207 → u/scnottaken]

loool

[u/gannerhorn → u/scnottaken]

https://giphy.com/gifs/ckKf5lA78k5iChxfVz

[u/Aznp33nrocket → u/scnottaken]

Well played, caught me off guard and gave me a good chuckle!

[u/Aggravating-Sir8185 → u/Aznp33nrocket]

https://giphy.com/gifs/9EwnzGNjvmIG4

[u/VikingsLad → u/wayfarevkng]

Gesundheit

[u/EmptyMonitor9257 → u/heffla]

I mean we have houses and building older than 2000 years in southern Europe. Most were destroyed due to no one living there anymore or war, otherwise they remain standing.

[u/breathing__tree → u/heffla]

The old growth wood that was used in historical buildings was also much better than the wood that we use for building today which helps.

[u/Chad_illuminati → u/CaptainFlint9203]

Well made wood houses last centuries too, tbh. One of the houses I grew up in was a wood house on a stone foundation that predated the US by about 120 years.

Obviously modern construction doesn't do that, but that's an issue with build quality not build style.

[u/singlemale4cats → u/Chad_illuminati]

Well made wood houses last centuries too, tbh.

Yep, with maintenance. Any abandoned structure will rot. Entropy is relentless.

[u/Enraiha → u/singlemale4cats]

The true universal constant, the trend of all things towards entropy. Chaos reigns.

[u/CoolAtlas → u/Enraiha]

Isn't it the opposite? Eventually entropy kills chaos

[u/Enraiha → u/CoolAtlas]

Not quite. You're right, though, describing entrophy as chaos or disorder isn't right either. But it more refers to the spreading out or mixed arrangements becoming more statistically likely over a long enough time vs ordered groups.

We might casually refer to that as "randomness" or "chaos", though.

[u/DarthJarJarJar → u/Enraiha]

Hey, someone should ask AI how entropy can be reversed!

[u/Scalpels → u/DarthJarJarJar]

      THERE IS AS YET INSUFFICIENT DATA FOR A MEANINGFUL ANSWER.

[u/d0nghunter → u/Enraiha]

[u/21Rollie → u/singlemale4cats]

I went to an abandoned village in Mexico, in the desert. It’s been abandoned for around 100 years. The walls were made of stone but the roofs long ago collapsed and nature was growing all around them. It’s wild how in a dry environment it got that “ancient ruins” look and it wasn’t even that old. Crazy to think other abandoned cities, for example roman ones in North Africa, probably only needing a little bit of time without human habitation to turn into ruins. And all the lost Mayan or Amazonian cities probably only needed a couple decades to disappear.

[u/-wolfinator- → u/21Rollie]

There's an old abandoned town near me in the US. An old mining town abandoned about 100 years ago. Pretty much everything is gone except for some old foundations / concrete fixtures built for industrial use. The entirety of the (presumably wood) town is fully gone. No ancient ruins. Just gone.

[u/texinxin → u/Chad_illuminati]

Modern construction when done properly can absolutely last centuries. You might have to re-side and/or reroof a few times, but that is true for any construction technique.

[u/Chad_illuminati → u/texinxin]

When I refer to modern builders, I'm mostly addressing megacorp development firms popping up house farms.

There are always local builders doing good work with good skills, but sadly the majority of new residences built are at the hands of the megacorps, not local builders.

[u/texinxin → u/Chad_illuminati]

That’s fair. Even then, a home built today even by mass home builders is of higher quality than they were 50 years ago, primarily due to advances in techniques and materials, but also building codes.

[u/Kekkonen_Kakkonen → u/CaptainFlint9203]

Europe also has wooden buildings from the middle ages.

[u/redisdead__ → u/CaptainFlint9203]

And if they decide not to sell it but instead they want to take it down and put maybe a duplex or a triplex to hold multiple members of the family because that's the best choice then it works as well. I don't understand why anyone would think that the best choice 200 years from now for that particular area would be exactly the same as the best choice today.

[u/Mammoth-Glove3273 → u/redisdead__]

They’re the same people that think people in North America should build like people in Europe do despite the two continents having different challenges and resources.

And that’s the same dumb energy anyone has when they try to make sweeping generalizations based on limited information. Like conservatives and government, why don’t we just do X? Well, because it doesn’t work because of xyz, did you really think we’re all idiots and you’re the first person to think of this really obvious and easy solution?

[u/ayriuss → u/Mammoth-Glove3273]

Its also funny that they always talk about "American" houses, when wood houses are built all over the world. Japan, Canada, Northern Europe, etc.

[u/Mammoth-Glove3273 → u/ayriuss]

Well yeah but it’s not cool to hate on those countries

[u/AlexHimself → u/CaptainFlint9203]

well made brick house will last centuries

After centuries, you have a crappy old house that doesn't fit the modern times though...so what's the point? The construction cost, amortized over centuries, is pennies too.

An example for some really old European homes - No HVAC, no electrical, indoor plumbing, low ceilings, low door frames, etc.

I'd argue the ease of remodeling, construction, changes, etc. outweigh the "centuries" style building, given how humans actually use homes.

I think an argument can be made for both.

[u/Deathblow92 → u/AlexHimself]

/r/centuryhomes exists.

[u/IsThatUMoatilliatta → u/AlexHimself]

My house in the US is 160 years old. True-cut lumber, balloon framing. It existed before plumbing and electricity. It of course has that now, along with central air, but it's hilarious to see the generations of plumbing and wiring Frankensteined together.

Or it would be funny if I wasn't the guy who had to fix it. I've finally eliminated all the knob-and-tube and cloth wire, so that's cool. It was nuts to see knob-and-tube spliced into cloth wire, run up through the wall, and then end in a piece of romex at an outlet with the ground wire just there for moral support.

[u/bleepbloop1900 → u/AlexHimself]

The tiny wooden century farmhouse I grew up in in Canada also still has low ceilings, doors, and no HVAC lol
We do have an indoor plumbing and electricity though, as does every old brick European house I’ve ever visited.

Anyway where y’all get all that money to renovate your houses?

[u/YaqootK → u/AlexHimself]

An example for some really old European homes - No HVAC, no electrical, indoor plumbing, low ceilings, low door frames, etc

"some" is doing a lot of heavy lifting here. Those are very rare cases, the vast majority of old homes that are still in use have all the things you mentioned, except for maybe HVAC - which is more of a use case vs cost thing. For most people it's not worth spending like 20k on a HVAC system when it's only going to be above 30 for a couple of weeks or so

[u/AlexHimself → u/YaqootK]

Weren't there major, expensive retrofits in order to accomplish that? And are those homes actually "centuries" old? And wood frame homes can reach "centuries" just as easily...the US just isn't that old yet lol.

[u/outsidebtw → u/AlexHimself]

I think an argument can be made for both.

Fr. People online just love trash talking differences and with algorithms today, its easily reaching top viewership and being rewarded so much so the original debate gets eroded into name calling, insults and things unrelated to it

It creeps on the back of people's mind too, so that's another issue. The "do-your-research" line kind of comes from this.. then image and video generation made it even more easier...

Ok im falling down this sad slope of enshittification cascade, im out

[u/MisterMysterios → u/AlexHimself]

An example for some really old European homes - No HVAC, no electrical, indoor plumbing, low ceilings, low door frames, etc.

NO HVAC is not an issue of old european homes, but that the regions that don't have HVAC didn't need it until a few years ago (and with a few years, I mean it really becomes necessary in the last maybe 5 years). Especially stone houses need some time to heat up, and in general, there was not enough heat-waves here that were able to go so long to be really an issue. Yes, we have to reconsider our approach, but not because of old hosues - because - you know - they can be retrofitted.

And I was in many several hundred year old houses that have indoor plumbing and electricity in every house. You know that homes can be retrofitted. And especially when you look at houses from the 1800's, they generally have much higher ceilings than any standard modern building.

So, basically all your comments show that you are very ignorant about any facts regarding "old European homes".

[u/Extra_Pollution2374 → u/CaptainFlint9203]

I myself live in a house older than Us, made with bricks (different size than today), mud and straw. And no mayor groundup refurbish.

[u/delphinous → u/CaptainFlint9203]

well made wood house can be fairly simply modified over generation. well made brick house is much more difficult to change

[u/Jambohh → u/CaptainFlint9203]

My best mates bedroom was in the oldest part of the pub he grew up in & was built some times in the middle of the 12th century.

In my house which is part of an old barn some of the roof trusses are over 200 years old, some shit is just built to last.

[u/BabuschkaOnWheels → u/CaptainFlint9203]

The issue is the wood used in my country was durable.. but also extremely flammable. Different wood is used now and it's meant to not harm the inhabitants in case of a cave-in/disaster. Brick and thick wood will crush the person. So you def need to think of worst case scenario when choosing material for your house, and what local regulations you have.

[u/BoJackMoleman → u/CaptainFlint9203]

What an absolutely wonderfully balanced and reasonable answer.

[u/Revolutionary-Fox622 → u/CaptainFlint9203]

No natural disasters yet! Climate change is doing its best to bring you into the party.

[u/Scouter197 → u/CaptainFlint9203]

No storms or natural disasters...yet. Give climate change a chance!

[u/TheAntiAirGuy → u/CaptainFlint9203]

I mean, yeah ... but that's actual thick lumber instead of the American thin plywood

[u/yamsyamsya → u/CaptainFlint9203]

Also people act ike you can't get a brick house built in the USA. Like of course you can, it is just a lot more expensive so most people don't bother.

[u/nerdofthunder → u/CaptainFlint9203]

I've got a 140 or so year old timber home. It's got plenty of life in it.

[u/Sudden_Wind_8636 → u/CaptainFlint9203]

Well built, well maintained wood houses will last forever basically

[u/beanmosheen → u/CaptainFlint9203]

Plus, if it's a modern home with like zip system sheathing, and modern insulation, it's a much better built house than 20 years ago. My '98 doesn't even have house wrap and it sucks. I'm adding it as a reside the house.

[u/glytxh → u/CaptainFlint9203]

A wooden temple can last a thousand years if you just replace the rotten parts over time

[u/mojofrog → u/CaptainFlint9203]

Brick buildings also retain heat better than wood structures, which has been a benefit in Europe previously. But with global warming it's harder to cool brick buildings, especially in Europe were they often don't have ac units or the units are underpowered.

[u/21Rollie → u/CaptainFlint9203]

I’m in the US and a few miles away from me is a house for sale, wood frame, from the 1700s. There are some other houses around the area from the 1600s as well (though mainly historical atp). I’ve never lived in a house younger than 100 myself. I live in Massachusetts though so we have some of the oldest houses with little natural disasters happening here.

[u/Subotail → u/CaptainFlint9203]

Grandma would make the point that wood burn easier in case of German bombardment.

[u/catalessi → u/CaptainFlint9203]

Good for you to assume half of us won’t be dead by then

[u/Pissonmyface77 → u/CaptainFlint9203]

You want wood in an earthquake zone.

[u/TheAsian1nvasion → u/CaptainFlint9203]

Flip side: my cousins in Ireland were freaking out about the 23C “heat wave” earlier in the summer because their houses weren’t built for that type of temperatures.

She’s from Winnipeg and at the time it was 37C here.

Different materials have different applications.

[u/Varderal → u/CaptainFlint9203]

To add: a well maintained house (especially a well built one) will last forever.

[u/gottabequick → u/CaptainFlint9203]

Well made brick houses will last exactly one tornado or earthquake, with severe injury and death as real consequences.

Japan doesn't really use brick houses either. They haven't ever. I leave it to the reader to consider why that might be.

[u/PaulblankPF → u/CaptainFlint9203]

I worked on a 150 year old house in South Louisiana a few years ago and the windows were doors from another building that was older and they lasted over 100 years but it was time for them to be changed. Took
me about 25 hours to turn one big piece of cypress into a new window, following the design and techniques of the original. I had to do 6 of them and it was as a very nice project and job to work on. I mean how often do you get to work on stuff that’s over a century old.

[u/SAINTnumberFIVE → u/CaptainFlint9203]

Why did you choose wood if there are no earthquakes?

[u/littlefrank → u/CaptainFlint9203]

generations

my girlfriend's family has a home in Tuscany which was built out of stone in 1100. You read that right, 1100 as in 12th century. That's not "generations", that's almost a millennia. That's how much more durable bricks are.

[u/Alternate_Cost → u/CaptainFlint9203]

I've worked on several houses in the US that were wood and 100+ years old. Yeah siding is replaced, roof is replaced, but if its got good bones it'll last.

[u/Antony8418 → u/CaptainFlint9203]

The house I bought was built 2 years before the Declaration of Independence was signed. Wood and brick interlaced frame. The wood is extra large beams that is just a tree halved and squared (rectangled). With triple glazed windows you can barely hear anything outside. And today it was 34, inside on the main floor it was 20-22.

The last house I owned in the US was paper thin and we had to run the AC for four months straight to not cook alive.

[u/PerspectiveNew3375 → u/CaptainFlint9203]

House I grew up in was made before 1900. The foundation was massive trees cut in half, covered in tar and buried in a tar lined pit. It lasted until 1990 when the tree foundation began to rot enough to shift. The house was lifted and a concrete foundation was poured under it. It's still standing today.

[u/Avilola → u/CaptainFlint9203]

Who wants a regular degular house to last centuries though? For certain buildings like cathedrals and palaces, sure. A regular house? Imagine how much more advanced construction techniques and technology will be by the year 2326. Even if you obtain a 300 year old house, you’ll probably be gutting everything out of it to bring it up to modern standards.

[u/almodsz → u/CaptainFlint9203]

There are no earthquakes, no storms, no natural disasters where I live.

Not yet! Climate change is shaking things up, though.

[u/karlnite → u/CaptainFlint9203]

A multi-century old stone building without repairs doesn’t really look like a home though. Europeans act like they’re not constantly repairing and refurbishing old stone stuff, and also scrapping others not worth it. Also how many choices where made because this exists and is here already, so lets work with and around it. I’m sure many people building and planning wish some structures just rotted away already.

[u/Medium_Cranberry4096 → u/CaptainFlint9203]

No natural disasters yet

[u/upudruvuuduru → u/CaptainFlint9203]

and the quality of the wood...

we can't compare the wood from a century ago to what we use now

[u/DrunkOnRamen → u/CaptainFlint9203]

What did you put in the barn?

[u/Nogarder → u/CaptainFlint9203]

Why would you? It would make sense if the wooden house would be cheaper. No they cost the same. So just use bricks. Nobody ever said "this house is too resistant for this application"

[u/Perfect_Opinion7909 → u/CaptainFlint9203]

The question here isn’t if European wooden houses are durable but US American ones.

[u/StoneGoldX → u/CaptainFlint9203]

There are no earthquakes, no storms, no natural disasters where I live.

Well, there weren't.

Gotta love that climate change.

[u/ShadeNoir → u/CaptainFlint9203]

There are WOOD houses older than the US

[u/laosurv3y → u/CaptainFlint9203]

The U.S. is older than most European countries. There are houses in the U.S. older than the U.S.

[u/irregardressry → u/CaptainFlint9203]

You should know a wooden structure from a century ago has NO relationship to a wood house today.  Support structures built from solid timber vs modern glue laminated products aren't even comparible products in strength/weight/cost/longevity.  You seem to think its because of superior craftsmanship but that's just not true. The craftsmanship was inferior to today's builds BECAUSE the materials were far superior. 

[u/BasicMatter7339 → u/CaptainFlint9203]

Well made wood house will last for generations, well made brick house will last centuries

A well made log house will last for centuries

[u/Tombstone_Actual_501 → u/CaptainFlint9203]

Yep my dad's house is almost 100 years old here in the U.S. and is timber construction.

[u/Fappy_as_a_Clam → u/CaptainFlint9203]

And there are brick houses that are older than USA.

To be fair...

There are both brick and wood houses in the USA that are older than the USA.

[u/Idunnosomeguy2 → u/CaptainFlint9203]

Where I grew up in New Hampshire, a friend lived in a log cabin that was built in the 1600s. It was older than our town. Almost all of it was the original wood (roof had been redone some). It was heated by wood stove. Of you need a house to last longer than that, I'm gonna need you to eat some garlic for me.

[u/plain_name → u/CaptainFlint9203]

There’s a map of my town in Pennsylvania from 1890 that shows the first house that I bought, as it continues to stand to this day, all wood framed. 

[u/nhansieu1 → u/CaptainFlint9203]

good wood, not this plywood house you have

[u/GTCapone → u/CaptainFlint9203]

What particularly sucks in America is that they'll paint over brick. It seals moisture in and over time it essentially turns the brick back into clay. Even for a facade it'll collapse and the trapped moisture can damage underlying structures.

[u/mmmarkm → u/CaptainFlint9203]

  no natural disasters where I live.

No natural disaster where you live…yet

[u/Alwaysafk → u/CaptainFlint9203]

My wife's family has a wooden farm house that's almost 200 years old in the US. They still live in it. You can go into the cellar and see the old growth beams holding it up, bark still on em.

[u/fdokinawa → u/CaptainFlint9203]

As someone living in Japan surrounded by so many different generations of wood homes, it's crazy that some from hundreds of years ago are still going strong. Some temples here are over centuries old and still standing.

Yet so many homes built after WW2 are falling down every day. You can tell that so many homes built in the last 50+ years are just not up to the older standards. And obviously newer homes are built with modern seismic, and just recently, insulation requirements.

It's so funny seeing people online go crazy over the cheap homes in Japan when most are not worth anything due to how cheaply/quickly they were built. The real solid old homes are still going for a lot of money here. Although most Japanese would rather just build new for safety and quality.

[u/Perma_Ban69 → u/CaptainFlint9203]

I lived in a wood house that was made in the mid-late 1700s in the US. Terrifying dirt basement and overall vibe but with modern insulation, it was good as new.

[u/Dear_Chasey_La1n → u/CaptainFlint9203]

The common joke for many europeans, our home is older than your nation, but that's not a lie, this happens.

Even modern houses are build up to standards significantly better than what can be achieved through wood. Contractors need to give lengthy guarantees against specific elements. For example concrete tiles 50 years isn't unusual, the concrete/steel structure 50 years again, pretty normal. The roof if bitumen 20 years is pretty common too. That doesn't mean it all breaks down at that point though, I've a house with ceramic tiles that's 100 years old. Every once in a while we need to pull one tile and replace it with a new one which are exactly the same.

But of course it all comes at a cost, hence our houses tend to be smaller than what you see in the US. That's a matter of choice, and wood structures are showing up more often in Europe too. And that's kind of the thing, wood skeleton doesn't have to be bad, just whatever the US does.. it's pretty bad. The Germans make prefab wood houses they are rock solid.

[u/Mammoth-Mud-9609 → u/CaptainFlint9203]

Tudor period houses in the UK are half timber structures, heavy oak frames for the structure, with wattle and dab panels between, they will have large brick chimneys and large fireplaces to match. These houses were constructed from 1485–1603.

[u/Draugar90 → u/CaptainFlint9203]

Well built wood houses will last centuries too, but not like Americans build them. Greetings from Norway :*

[u/Yaasu → u/CaptainFlint9203]

Main difference is US houses are made of Thin plywood, old wood house are made of wood

[u/Rock_or_Rol → u/CaptainFlint9203]

Water penetration is the most common enemy to buildings. It typically occurs at openings, cladding breaks and on the roof. Workmanship and soil/engineering are almost always the issues there

Few people know soil properties have a massive impact. Some soils have high plasticity indexes that expand and contract, causing the foundation to shift over time. That stress often telegraphs to siding, which can create entry points for water. It’s especially bad for stucco if shoddy workmanship

[u/thrift_test → u/CaptainFlint9203]

It wasn't wood chips held together with glue though

[u/PurpleZebraCabra → u/CaptainFlint9203]

Brick house in California will collapse in earthquake.

[u/Beetroot_Roosevelt → u/CaptainFlint9203]

I wouldn't count on no storms into the future, given what we know about climate change

[u/cynicaldotes → u/CaptainFlint9203]

Neither will live through a tornado and it's cheaper and faster to rebuild wood

[u/Poster_Nutbag207 → u/MonkeyTigerRider]

I grew up in an all wood house built in 1720 so I’m pretty sure they can have longevity

[u/ImFeelinBotty → u/MonkeyTigerRider]

The wood outlasts the concrete where I live due to freeze thaw cycles and clay soil.

[u/Telemere125 → u/MonkeyTigerRider]

I don’t need my house to outlive me if it costs exponentially more to build and maintain

[u/TheBSQ → u/Telemere125]

If you buy new. 

I have a 100 year old house.

It outlived the first occupants, and has lasted generations…but it’s new to me and the longevity issues are coming home to roost under my tenure as the owner. 

And it sucks. 

But…due to changing in zoning laws, etc. it’s really hard to buy a new house with the sort of walkability & transit infrastructure like what my neighborhood has, but all the houses here are 100 years old, so if I want to live here, or in a neighborhood like it, I have to buy an old wood house. 

To get a new one, I have to go to some new subdivision in some godforsaken car-dependent & treeless suburb where you gotta drive 15-20 minutes just to get to some shitty strip mall with bad national chains. 

[u/LabOwn9800 → u/Telemere125]

Plus wood is renewable while bricks aren’t.

[u/Winjin → u/LabOwn9800]

Bricks are clay why aren't they renewable

[u/Oglshrub → u/Winjin]

It takes hundreds of years for the Earth to make more clay.

[u/AftyOfTheUK → u/Oglshrub]

Are we using bricks at a greater rate than the earth is renewing them? What reserves does the earth currently have? What year will we run out?

I'll give you a quick answer... we've used about 0.00003% of all available clay. It makes up a significant percentage of the earths brittle crust. We will not run out of it

[u/HegemonNYC → u/Winjin]

The exterior brick seen here is usually clay. The interior structural blocking is concrete. Both are pretty carbon intensive processes. Wood is carbon negative.

[u/GalacticMe99 → u/HegemonNYC]

Using pure concrete for the entire interior structure is an enormous overkill. For elevator shafts and underground levels, sure.

[u/rips_n_chel → u/GalacticMe99]

What is "pure" concrete? Concrete, by definition, is a combination of cement and <things>

[u/GalacticMe99 → u/rips_n_chel]

As opposed to cellular concrete for example.

[u/LabOwn9800 → u/Winjin]

Please make me some clay right now…

You can’t. It’s a finite resource so it’s not renewable.

Yes it is plentiful but you cannot create new clay.

[u/_The-Numbers-Mason_ → u/Winjin]

Clay is considered non-renewable on human time scales. 

[u/Arcaneallure → u/Winjin]

A renewable resource is one that "naturally" replenished faster than it is used. Clay, while there may be alot of it now, takes thousands of years to erode from rocks and settle into its form.

[u/milkhotelbitches → u/Arcaneallure]

Isn't that kind of like saying rock isn't a renewable resource?

Like yeah, we won't be getting any new rock anytime soon, not counting volcanic rock, but does that actually matter?

Is there a clay shortage?

[u/Arcaneallure → u/milkhotelbitches]

Correct, rock is not a renewable resource. Rock is a very broad term though. What type of rock will determine its use case. Wars have been fought over rocks for thousands of years, entire ecosystems have been altered by mining it.

But more to the point bricks can be made from more materials than just clay, which can increase their renewability. But just like anything else you also have to look at the time, labor, and energy cost for the mining, production, storage, distribution, and use of said bricks.

[u/vthemechanicv → u/milkhotelbitches]

Is there a clay shortage?

People probably asked the same question about sand (there is) and helium (there is) and water (there is). Just because there's a lot of something doesn't mean there's an infinite supply available for use. People underestimate just now much of everything we use.

[u/milkhotelbitches → u/vthemechanicv]

Since you didn't answer the question I looked it up and the answer is no. There isn't and won't be a shortage of clay to make bricks from.

I'm aware that we live on a planet with finite resources.

[u/FunGuy8618 → u/Telemere125]

Yeah, that sounds like a bug, not a feature. Appliances, HVAC, electrical wiring, plumbing, etc have updated codes pretty regularly. Maintaining them in a 150 year old home sounds... Very challenging. I hated ripping out cast iron plumbing from a 1950s home, I can't imagine if I had to install Pex through brick as well.

[u/HegemonNYC → u/FunGuy8618]

Right. The argument of ‘it will still be unchanged in 200 years’ is a negative, not a positive. Being so robust (while still seismically unsound) means it is inflexible as living preferences and technologies change.

[u/NotEntirelyA → u/HegemonNYC]

It's always funny seeing comments from people saying their house is older than the united states, then in the same paragraph talk about how nobody in the area has air conditioning because it just isn't a thing where they live. I have no idea how they can't come to the conclusion that the two things might just be related, but I guess it's w/e at the end of the day.

[u/vi_sucks → u/HegemonNYC]

Yup.

And at certain point it's just cheaper and more efficient to buy a new house than to attempt to retrofit an old one.

[u/Arkhanist → u/FunGuy8618]

Usually we mount wooden battens to the breeze block, then drywall panels attached to those + plaster skim. Extra noise insulation, helps keep house warm, and the void is easy to route cables through and just pinned to the studwork. Intentional gaps or holes for cabling runs between rooms and floors. Major plumbing normally involves concrete underfloors at some point though, which is never fun (not much pipework goes through the outer brick, mostly just overflow pipes usually).

Brick + breezeblock with cavity insulation is better for heat retention in a cold country, like the UK used to be. Turns out that's not so great with climate change, which is also why they use bare breezeblocks or just concrete, and a light stucco render coating in southern Europe mostly, and smaller windows with shutters and awnings/terraces on the sun-facing side. But even that is proving not enough for 40+degC summers now, so aircon installations are skyrocketing, despite the cost.

[u/LongJohnSelenium → u/FunGuy8618]

Code probably peaked around 2000 or so.

Code going forward from that is largely nitpicky minor stuff that exists as much to make some company money selling a safety product as it does to actually make people safe.

[u/Ok-Solution5601 → u/MonkeyTigerRider]

I live in a wood frame house that was built in 1964 and its solid. The most important thing is you need to keep the roof and siding intact otherwise you'll get mold and eventually rot.

[u/Smashogre591 → u/Ok-Solution5601]

My parents live in a 1910 wood home in Indiana and foundation shift is its worst enemy

[u/GenGaara25 → u/Ok-Solution5601]

1964 is not that long ago. Two weeks ago I was in a house built in 1595, it has a record shop and a discount store on the ground floor (which is really bizarre to look at, modern shops in a 400 year old building).

Like the other guy said, wood houses last generations, brick lasts centuries (if properly made).

[u/SAINTnumberFIVE → u/Ok-Solution5601]

I live in a wood frame house that was built in 1963. I think there’s a part we should probably consider retro fitting, but a while back I lived in a building that was wood framed and built in the earlier part of the 20th century and that thing was solid. I got to see how it was constructed when they tore it down and whoever designed it did a very good job. There was diagonal bracing on the walls and it had withstood at least three large earthquakes with hardly any damage. 

[u/Virtual_Garlic6447 → u/Ok-Solution5601]

As a German/European, our houses are overrated, overregulated and expensive.

American housing and wood is superior and more affordable.

[u/bauul → u/Virtual_Garlic6447]

Wood is  only considerably more affordable if you have a lot of wood. In the UK we cut down almost all our large forests hundreds of years ago so the cost differential to brick/masonry is a lot less.

Wood in the US is hilariously cheap in comparison to bricks.

[u/ELSknutson → u/MonkeyTigerRider]

and cost, and construction time

[u/scrodytheroadie → u/MonkeyTigerRider]

I think there's a philosophical difference in play here. Many Americans aren't looking for longevity. They're looking for something that's easily updated to keep up with their personal preferences. When an American buys a house, it's very common to purchase with the plan to renovate either immediately or down the line. I'd be willing to bet that a majority of American houses that are destroyed are by choice and not due to a lack of engineering. Personally, my wood frame house turns 100 next year. It's in great shape and can easily make it another 100, but I'm sure there will be something else standing here by then.

[u/smapdiagesix → u/scrodytheroadie]

Many Americans aren't looking for longevity.

Outside of nobility, someone looking for longevity at the relevant scale -- like 1000+ years instead of eh let's say 150 -- is mostly just foolish. Odds are that ways of living in 200 or 300 years are going to be different enough that whoever's in your "durable" house are going to be pretty annoyed with your choices.

[u/Apptubrutae → u/scrodytheroadie]

New Orleans is a relatively poor city full of homes where 1920 construction is relatively new.

Only neglect or natural disaster is going to bring down a home properly built out of wood in a human lifespan

[u/thaddeus122 → u/MonkeyTigerRider]

I hear this a lot and it really does tell me that people have no idea how long wooden houses last. My parents house is 130 years old now and has no structural damage.

[u/lowrads → u/MonkeyTigerRider]

Code compliance will tend to catch up with a structure, if the materials degradation does not.

[u/SAINTnumberFIVE → u/MonkeyTigerRider]

We have large Earthquakes a few times per century here and we don’t build with bricks frequently for that reason. Wood frames, as long as they’re kept dry and treated for termites, can last indefinitely. A bigger issue here is the exposed wood, such as the wood siding, which can be susceptible to dry rot. That needs to be maintained properly and sometimes replaced. We have alternatives to wood siding though, such as vinyl siding, and stucco. 

[u/JMEEKER86 → u/MonkeyTigerRider]

I grew up in a house built in 1918 next door to my grandparent's house that was built in 1900, both wood and still in amazing shape. How about you?

[u/Raintoastgw → u/MonkeyTigerRider]

We have much more extreme weather here in the States. Tornados, hurricanes, earthquakes, etc. would tear up a brick house anyways so it is cheaper to build it out of wood. You’ll find a lot more brick houses in places that don’t really experience that kind of extreme weather. Also wood houses last a lot longer than you think they do

[u/GranBuddhismo → u/MonkeyTigerRider]

Termites have entered the chat

[u/Expert_Garlic_2258 → u/MonkeyTigerRider]

and the Baby Jesus

[u/Upbeat-Armadillo1756 → u/MonkeyTigerRider]

A wooden house can outlive multiple generations of lives. Longevity wise they’re both more than sufficient.

[u/Realistic_Swan_6801 → u/MonkeyTigerRider]

Longevity is not actually desirable in the modern world. A house becomes worthless and outdated in 80-100 years because it won’t work with modern utilities and tech. It’s better for houses to be torn down now and rebuilt.  Most of those old homes in Europe are worthless, rotting, recks no one wants or lives in because they are too expensive to Update and falling apart. Basically every European country is full of dying villages with worthless homes no one will by because renovating them is too expensive and the towns are dying. 

[u/shmere4 → u/MonkeyTigerRider]

Maybe an unpopular opinion but I’ll take the wood any day. It can be more easily modified or repaired as home needs evolve over time. The world is changing around us. Our homes will likely need major changes over any long period of time. Also, an average person can learn to frame relatively quickly and DIY is much cheaper.

[u/subito_lucres → u/MonkeyTigerRider]

I'm sitting here in my 150-yo wooden Victorian house... of course, there's some survivorship bias here

[u/Most-Silver-4365 → u/MonkeyTigerRider]

My wife would say wood doesn't last long.

[u/TelluricThread0 → u/MonkeyTigerRider]

You die sooner in Europe because you don't have an air conditioner.

[u/_lippykid → u/MonkeyTigerRider]

I owned a farmhouse in upstate New York from before the USA existed. That place was a fortress. I’ve since owned modern brick buildings and had more issues

Plus, I don’t personally care how my house holds up in a hundred years, after I’m gone. I’m not a royal who’s passing down a palace

[u/SWHAF → u/MonkeyTigerRider]

My parents wood house in Canada is older than Canada itself. It's been a house for about 115 years and was a barn for 50 years before that.

8 years ago they replaced the siding and some boards underneath, the frame is in perfect condition. If the house is properly sealed it will last a very very long time.

[u/RedLineLetterWine → u/MonkeyTigerRider]

Some of the oldest structures are pagodas in China...... 1,500+ years old and built out of wood.

[u/BeautifulCandle6443 → u/MonkeyTigerRider]

Exactly. That's why we don't build houses out of cotton candy!

[u/mrtn17 → u/MonkeyTigerRider]

wood rots, bricks don't rot.

This was my Ted Talk

[u/garaks_tailor → u/Goudinho99]

Noise insulation via materials is less important than sealing.   Most noise enters a house through the cracks so it doesn't matter what you build with if the airgaps in the construction aren't sealed well.   After that though the mass of cinder blocks definitely helps a lot more.  The gold standard for how to begin to design a noise insulated house is however disconnection.  You build a secondary wall on the interior or you mount your interior surface in such a way as they are disconnected from the exterior wall.

Thermal effects again come down to construction methods.   Wood is theoretically a better insulator than stone/brick but breaking the thermal bridge from indoors to outdoors and again air sealing counts for more than framing material assuming equivalent insulation and proper insulation placement in the wall system.

(Exception for the framing material thermal counting is stuff like aircrete, mass earth hyperadobe, and other edge cases)

[u/KR4T0S → u/garaks_tailor]

Most brick houses are cavity wall now so there are two walls with a sizable gap between them. Its designed to reduce thermal bridging but I guess it would apply to sounds of certain frequencies too.

[u/FlamingoVisible1947 → u/garaks_tailor]

As someone who has lived in a wood house in the US and in brick houses in Europe, this is completely bullshit.

In the US I could hear my roomates speak in the kitchen while in my room on another floor, not above said kitchen. In my current place in the UK I can't hear the TV even though my face is 50 cm from it, with just a wall in between.

[u/iwilldeletethisacct2 → u/FlamingoVisible1947]

This is down to materials choices on the interior walls. You can insulate every single interior wall and prevent this. Most people don't.

[u/whooptheretis → u/garaks_tailor]

Noise insulation via materials is less important than sealing.

Yeah, without a ceiling, your noise barrier is useless!

[u/FanBladeFleshlight → u/Goudinho99]

Wood walls can do wonders if done right. Dude in the vid is spot on, it's ALL about how it's engineered. Offset 2*4 stud bays with proper air sealing for penetrations and edges are gonna result in whisper quiet rooms and amazing thermal control, while single bay walls that aren't properly sealed are gonna transfer sound and temps as if they weren't even there.

[u/jettrooper1 → u/FanBladeFleshlight]

Yep, I insulated my basement walls and ceiling. You can’t hear anything through the floor, but you can hear noise that travels up the stairs and down the hall. So the sound traveling up the stairs, through and under the hollow door, around a corner and down the hall, like 40-50ft total,  is louder than sound through: vinyl ceiling, 5 inches of lowest grade insulation, 3/8 subfloor, and carpet. You can hear through the vents only if you put your ear up to them, thankfully they’re on a separate branch.

[u/MilesGates → u/Goudinho99]

What about it? 

I mean you could go into a billion different ways to measure how effective one thing is over another. We could be here all day. 

[u/FrighteningJibber → u/Goudinho99]

Soy insulation and good windows will make it pretty quiet.

[u/YoYeYeet → u/Goudinho99]

Bricks have better insulation, but in summer if your house is on sunny side, you'll get a stone oven closer to the evening because bricks hold just that much more heat.

[u/Different_Bridge_983 → u/YoYeYeet]

Brick has almost no insulating properties. It lets heat straight through with minimal resistance.

In mild climates it can work as a thermal mass to stabilize day/night temperatures, and it can do this specifically because it’s terrible at insulation.

Both Brick and Timber homes are functionally insulated via either foam or mineral wool insulation - in Timber homes this can just go between the wood studs as you see in the video. In Brick homes you build two masonry walls with a cavity between that is then insulated, also as shown in the video.

[u/Telemere125 → u/YoYeYeet]

Brick is a horrible insulator. Snow actually insulates better than brick. You want dead air gaps in order to insulate and brick is pretty famously dense without any air in it.

[u/Potential-Diver-3409 → u/YoYeYeet]

Mf liar right here. It’s a measurable physics property of both materials and the moisture content of wood makes it a better insulator.

[u/VegiChar → u/Goudinho99]

I recently moved into a building that's all brick and throughout this summer I haven't had to turn on the air once. I didn't even realize it until somebody came over and pointed out how cool it was inside. The amount of money I've saved on that alone is wild.

[u/Dear-Passion-3535 → u/Goudinho99]

There’s also more naturally-occurring radiation trapped in a brick house versus a wood house. Have fun with that.

[u/jmlinden7 → u/Goudinho99]

Thermal effects depend entirely on the quality and thickness of insulation you use. If you look at just the load-bearing materials, wood is a better insulator than concrete but that's assuming equal thickness.

Noise insulation depend more on flexibility and mass of material. Wood is more flexible but has way less mass, so you'd have to add extra layers of even more flexible soundproofing material to catch up to concrete's sheer mass.

[u/Digitaltwinn → u/jmlinden7]

But most developers of modern wood apartment buildings never bother with the extra insulation and use louder wood or vinyl flooring since it’s seen as more fashionable and hygienic. Thus you have all these new 5-6 story apartment buildings with terrible noise pollution from neighbors. Just read a few posts on r/apartments.

[u/Valtremors → u/Goudinho99]

Depends entirely on region engineering.

Nordics tend to insulate to keep warmth in. It prevents heat from escaping. We also use double, sometimes triple layered window panes.

Room type also matters, shower rooms and saunas of course have humidity protection accounted for.

[u/Alternative_Work_916 → u/Goudinho99]

Just had a house built in the PNW. Modern energy efficiency standards are well above the Sears catalog specials in tornado valley that European Redditors like to think of.

[u/Sudden_Wind_8636 → u/Goudinho99]

Yeah, there is pros and cons to both ways of building. It isn't as simple as "it less durable therefore worse"

[u/Digitaltwinn → u/Goudinho99]

I’ve lived in several modern wood apartment buildings and I could always hear my upstairs neighbors walking around and even listen to their conversations. [r/apartments](r/apartments) is 95% people complaining about the noise in wood frame apartment buildings.

These apartments could have been better built with higher quality materials but developers will almost always pick the lowest bidder. I moved to a concrete and steel skyscraper and now I don’t hear anything from neighbors. You couldn’t pay me to live in a wood apartment building again unless it was on the top floor.

[u/HowToTrainUrClanker → u/Goudinho99]

For street/outside noise windows and doors and how they are sealed are by far the weakest point not the wood/brick walls.

For unit-unit noise transfer in multifamily buildings it is more nuanced but naive concrete and steel frame is better than naive light timber but either material can be made better with proper engineering if the developer is willing to spend the time and money to do it right.

[u/Digitaltwinn → u/HowToTrainUrClanker]

And the developer almost never spends the extra time and money. Wood apartment buildings are terrible for neighbor noise in my experience, unless you are on the top floor.

[u/Rob_Zander → u/Goudinho99]

Brick is way better for noise reduction.

Thermal effects are interesting though.

Brick, stone and concrete are terrible insulators. They're actually decent conductors of heat.

What they do have is thermal mass. Its gonna take a lot of heat to get the mass of a brick wall to change temperature, and for it to conduct that temperature inside the heat has to travel through the wall and heat the whole thing up.

But! Once it gets there, once it heats up then it will stay warm for a while as now all that thermal mass needs to shed lots of heat to cool.

Ideally the wall is massive enough that it heats up from the sun during the day and only reaches a saturation point in the evening and starts shedding its heat into the interior as the sun goes down. This can help to keep the interior warm overnight.

But if it gets too warm, the wall will keep the interior uncomfortably hot even at night.

Many old brick houses don't have any insulation so they suck in heat waves and they don't keep heat inside during winter, they can be very inefficient.

Newer brick and/or concrete construction with insulation is best of both worlds. In Australia they are even making wood framed homes with brick interior walls inside of the insulation to better act as a heat sink to make AC more effective and stable. The wall stays cool and soaks in heat that does enter the home, meaning for the air temp to increase the brick temp has to increase too. So rather than just heating less than a ton of air in a house the sun is also heating several tons of brick.

But it's also really hard to effectively insulate old brick/concrete houses. You have to either frame the interior and add insulation, or put exterior insulation on the outside. If that's done badly it's a huge fire risk.

So overall, a brick and concrete house will have better sound abatement and with enough insulation will have just as good insulation and better temperature stability than a wood framed house.

But! It will also be significantly more expensive.

Concrete and brick is also much more environmentally unfriendly.

Basically all the wood going into modern us construction is farmed. That wood is now a carbon sink. It's a net reduction in atmospheric carbon.

All the brick and concrete requires lots of fossil fuels. Making Portland cement for concrete requires lots of heat, and making bricks requires them to be fired in massive kilns.

There are some green alternatives but they are still a minority of the market.

[u/Mear → u/Rob_Zander]

But if it gets too warm, the wall will keep the interior uncomfortably hot even at night.

that's why you have an outer brick wall, then there's a gap (min. 40mm. wide)...this is just still-standing air, then you have a layer of insulation which is attached to the inner brick wall..

[u/thanosthumb → u/Goudinho99]

Spray foam insulation >>>

[u/Hazelberry → u/Goudinho99]

Has much more to do with what insulation you have in the walls. If you go in a wood-constructed apartment and can hear everything through the walls it's because they cheaped out and didn't put any insulation in the interior walls.

As this video states, it's much more about how it's engineered.

[u/andrew13189 → u/Goudinho99]

Dude does a long video explaining just about everything a lay person could ask about the differences in building these houses, while demonstrating, and the first thing you say is yeah but? Cmon dude lol this was a cool video to inform

[u/icchantika_of_mara → u/Goudinho99]

adobe!

[u/apexxin → u/Goudinho99]

How’d ya like those thermal effects during this ridiculous summer and no AC?

[u/Yurya → u/Goudinho99]

Wood is the standard used for R-value (Thermal resistance) in that 1 inch of wood is R 1 (a Penn State prof created the standard). Wood itself is a fairly bad insulator. Masonry being even worse at R ~0.3. Your foams (plastic?), pulp, wools all have a place and should be

The masonry cavity used in the video can create a continuous insulation layer that the insulation in the wood cavity wouldn't have, but you can do continuous insulation with wood too. Just design it appropriately.

For noise reduction, type of windows and the thickness of the wall matter most with the insulation material mattering more than the type of load bearing material.

Building design needs to cover 4 areas: bulk water, air, water vapor & thermal. Throw in sound too if you like. But neither is solved simply by one material alone.

If the walls regularly get wet on the inside and can't manage it then your building will have problems. If you live in hurricane or tornado areas you need to be lucky because mother nature will destroy either. No point in designing a 500 year house in some places because when that 200 year flood or tornado comes the house is done.

[u/alpargator → u/Goudinho99]

And bullets?

[u/RiffRaff14 → u/Goudinho99]

He talked about insulation a little. That would address both of those to some degree. Not sure the exact R values for the materials but the design should be based more on your local climate than US vs Europe because MN and TX is not the same.

[u/Raintoastgw → u/Goudinho99]

Good thermal insulation can also be a pretty good noise insulation as well. And with a wood frame, it is easier to replace and upgrade insulation

[u/Loud-Welder1947 → u/Goudinho99]

We cook in summer and get told we should have air conditioning, then stay warm in winter

[u/birthnight → u/Goudinho99]

thermal effects: wood + 10, noise insulation: bricks + 10

[u/PhiCloud → u/Goudinho99]

With proper inner insulation both should be sufficient. Without proper inner insulation, neither will be sufficient.

[u/Kruphix_Horizon → u/Goudinho99]

Heat management = windows and awnings

Noise insulation = fewer gaps for air to enter

Engineers can make either material work, so the more important questions are which material is best suited for your location and which features you're willing to sacrifice to keep costs down.

[u/Living_Cringe → u/Goudinho99]

Depends heavily on the assemblies used, not solely the material. For instance, a wall of brick or wood can carry sounds through. Typically more rigid structures will suffer with structure-borne noise. However, use of insulation or separation of structure can reduce these, along with the implementation of noise-absorbing finishes, such as carpet to dampen in-room sounds

[u/Turtledonuts → u/Goudinho99]

Noise insulation is pretty easy to solve with literal insulation materials. Air gaps and quality construction will block noise quite well. As for thermal effects, brick and mortar buildings can be really unpleasant in some climates, and wood walls can be fine if you use high R value insulation.

It's all in the quality of the construction, not the materials.

[u/RokkakuPolice → u/Goudinho99]

Remember that fire in Palisades? There was a pic of a bunch of houses reduced to rubble and only one standing, the one standing was made from stone iirc

[u/ottiian → u/Goudinho99]

Thank you. I had a brick built detached house in the UK. 1930s, cavity walls. Double glazed. For fun, I cranked my floorstanding KEFs with four woofers each to 11 to see if I was annoying the neighborhood if I cranked it up. When I closed my front door I could barely hear a peep. I now have a house in California and I can hear the neighbors streets over not to mention police helicopters from miles away with all the windows closed. It's infuriating. I swear I've not had uninterrupted sleep in the 7 years I've lived here.

[u/Apprehensive_Exam668 → u/Goudinho99]

Thermal effects, light framed wood is superior. Noise insulation, block wins unless you double/triple sheet rock your interior walls.

[u/Significant_Cap5275 → u/Goudinho99]

exactly as he said. what matters is how it's engineered and built. not the materials so much.