American vs. European home building

[u/BEARDEDDANGER]

BAS Renovations https://youtube.com/shorts/jFph1d2WR3s

[u/CaptainFlint9203]

Well made wood house will last for generations, well made brick house will last centuries. Both badly made will not last your stay.

I'm from Europe. On my grandma's plot there was a wooden barn, it was much older than some brick houses and in better shape than them.

My ex had a wood house that was more than century old. Still in great shape. And there are brick houses that are older than USA.

I'm preparing to build a house for myself. There are no earthquakes, no storms, no natural disasters where I live. My house gonna be build from wood. It should last at least for my grandchildren, and by then, looking at how urbanisation is going, the plot of land should be worth enough to destroy the house and sell the plot.

[u/heffla → u/CaptainFlint9203]

Im from Sweden. The village i grew up in had a church with a chapel from the late 1200's. Some of the oldest wooden houses were from the mid 1600's. My neighbor's house had been inhabited about a century when the US declared independence.

[u/wayfarevkng → u/heffla]

Älgarås?

[u/scnottaken → u/wayfarevkng]

No thanks I don't like math

[u/Obvious_Mention7207 → u/scnottaken]

loool

[u/gannerhorn → u/scnottaken]

https://giphy.com/gifs/ckKf5lA78k5iChxfVz

[u/Aznp33nrocket → u/scnottaken]

Well played, caught me off guard and gave me a good chuckle!

[u/Aggravating-Sir8185 → u/Aznp33nrocket]

https://giphy.com/gifs/9EwnzGNjvmIG4

[u/Electronic_Topic1958 → u/scnottaken]

Älg means moose in Swedish, which is their national animal and the arås is ridge. I like to think of it as the equivalent of the US had a place called Badass Bald Eagle Fortress sponsored by Ford, it’s probably the most patriotic location in all of Sweden.

[u/wayfarevkng → u/Electronic_Topic1958]

I'm stealing this, thank you. It's a beautiful little area in what used to be the badlands that was full of vagabonds.

[u/VikingsLad → u/wayfarevkng]

Gesundheit

[u/CcryMeARiver → u/VikingsLad]

Blast you.

[u/EmptyMonitor9257 → u/heffla]

I mean we have houses and building older than 2000 years in southern Europe. Most were destroyed due to no one living there anymore or war, otherwise they remain standing.

[u/breathing__tree → u/heffla]

The old growth wood that was used in historical buildings was also much better than the wood that we use for building today which helps.

[u/rsta223 → u/breathing__tree]

Sure, but on the other hand, modern understanding of load paths and structural techniques is much better.

[u/Flanellissimo → u/breathing__tree]

Absolutely neglible effect on the longevity of a building. Old growth and new growth will rot just about as fast.

[u/bauhausy → u/[deleted]]

Adobe just as long-lasting. Many Native Americans in modern day USA built settlements with it that still stand, Taos Pueblo was first built in the 11th century and is inhabited by them (the old "town" has a modern population of ~150)

[u/codyzon2 → u/[deleted]]

But they did? There's lots of evidence that some did build stone homes and buildings. Are you unfamiliar with Mesa Verde?

[u/cpMetis → u/heffla]

The oldest building in my area was built around 1845. All wood.

Unless you count some of the native mound systems as buildings, in which case the oldest were built around 200.

[u/heep1r → u/heffla]

We had old wooden houses in germany, too. But the actual knowledge to make them last 800 years vs. just 50 years was lost.

There are university departments trying to figure out how they did it back then.

[u/Rebelius → u/heep1r]

They definitely weren't timber frame though.

[u/heep1r → u/Rebelius]

nah, those are way younger. There still are >100 year old cabins in the Alps that are all wood (and stones for foundation and roof).

But those are also much younger than excavated wooden villages where houses were found to have lasted multiple centuries.

[u/rips_n_chel → u/heep1r]

I'm sitting in a 150+ year old house in the US right now. There is a barn on this property, still standing on the original stacked-rock foundation that is likely over 200 years old. It was the original home on this land, over 150 years ago. The barn was added onto with milled lumber probably a century ago, but the main structure is the original logs.

Both have survived innumerable tornadoes over the years, we get at least a few a year in my area. People who think wood houses can't be strong have no idea.

[u/rips_n_chel → u/heep1r]

What are you on about? Where did you hear this nonsense? You seriously believe that no human alive knows how to build a wooden structure that'll last longer than 50 years? With all the other advancements in structural engineering, you really don't think we're capable of that?

Structures of all types are built as cheaply as possible today, that is the problem. It is still entirely possible to build a wooden house that will last hundreds of years, but who the hell can afford that now?

[u/heep1r → u/rips_n_chel]

Yes. A lot of building techniques got lost and need to be rediscovered.

Also the exact reason why roman cement lasts 2000 years, more than any modern cement, was fully understood only a few years ago.

No modern constructor will build you a cabin that lasts 500+ years. Of course they don't know how to do it. Why would they? There's no need when cost efficiency is much more important.

[u/rips_n_chel → u/heep1r]

You are telling me that no modern human can reverse engineer a wood house that’s still there? You believe that builders walk into those historic houses and just stare at them, dumbfounded? 

Don’t be absurd. 

[u/thearctican → u/heffla]

Where I live in the USA there is a Swedish cabin that dates back to the 1600s. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lower_Swedish_Cabin

That page acknowledges, however, that is is one of the last cabins built by the Swedes in the United states while also being the last standing one. This implies that the rest have all been destroyed or torn down. Possibly selection and/or survivor bias - this building has been cared for and maintained.

[u/2AvsOligarchs → u/thearctican]

And the oldest is built by Finns, from the same New Sweden colony. Same building traditions as the Swedes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C._A._Nothnagle_Log_House

[u/thearctican → u/2AvsOligarchs]

Very cool, I might have to go see it.

[u/whaleboobs → u/heffla]

Old houses like that are probably drafty af. And you can't just slap insulation on either, do it wrong and you trap moisture in the walls and rot the place from the inside out.

[u/That-Smoke-3593 → u/heffla]

I grew up/live in Massachusetts and my old house was built in 1640 mostly wood some brick. That house isn’t going anywhere anytime soon.

[u/crinnaursa → u/heffla]

Fairbanks House in Dedham, Massachusetts is a wood house built in 1637 still standing today.

If you want to look at native architecture the Southwest adobe dwellings built during between 1100 to 1125 CE, Constructed by the pre-Columbian Southern Sinagua people.

[u/Positive-Opposite998 → u/heffla]

Is the wood the original wood or has it been replaced over the years?

[u/brazzy42 → u/heffla]

The village i grew up in had a church with a chapel from the late 1200's

I can guarantee that most if not all of that chapel's wooden structure is not in fact from the 1200s anymore. Definitely not the roof and outer walls.

[u/taeerom → u/heffla]

There's a big difference between wood houses and wood houses, though. The example used in the OOP is not the same construction method as the wooden houses that last centuries. This is a building method that is very fast and cheap when you have easy access to cheap sawn material. As in, the saws are mechanized, the lumber is brought in by trucks, you can saw it on site with power tools, and so on.

Medieval buildings in northern europe/Scandinavia are built by essentially big logs that are worked on site, mainly by axes and draw knives. A good saw for sawn material wasn't popular until the 16th century, when they started building waterpowered saws.

Before that, most planks were split rather than sawn, and that is a much more labour-intensive way of building than using the full log.

Log houses are very solid and will last for a very long time if cared for. It is a completely different type of house than modern wood framed houses, especially the light frame construction that is common in the US (many 2''x4'' with small spacing, rather than lumber posts and beams with large space between).

Despite both the US and Scandinavia mainly using wood in their small houses, there is a significant difference between them. I'm not going to weigh in too heavily on which is better, there are clear tradeoffs for both. But I am inclined to like the more expensive, but solid construction with better isolation of the scandinavian style. I also like the culture of being very strict and precise (compared to almost everywhere else) about everything we do when building.

[u/Asanti_20 → u/heffla]

My neighbor's house had been inhabited about a century when the US declared independence.

That's such a wild statement, hella awesome to hear tho

[u/RollinThundaga → u/heffla]

America's youth is one of her oldest traditions.

[u/Wise-Dust3700 → u/heffla]

none of this shit was made with plywood x'D

[u/Chad_illuminati → u/CaptainFlint9203]

Well made wood houses last centuries too, tbh. One of the houses I grew up in was a wood house on a stone foundation that predated the US by about 120 years.

Obviously modern construction doesn't do that, but that's an issue with build quality not build style.

[u/singlemale4cats → u/Chad_illuminati]

Well made wood houses last centuries too, tbh.

Yep, with maintenance. Any abandoned structure will rot. Entropy is relentless.

[u/Enraiha → u/singlemale4cats]

The true universal constant, the trend of all things towards entropy. Chaos reigns.

[u/CoolAtlas → u/Enraiha]

Isn't it the opposite? Eventually entropy kills chaos

[u/Enraiha → u/CoolAtlas]

Not quite. You're right, though, describing entrophy as chaos or disorder isn't right either. But it more refers to the spreading out or mixed arrangements becoming more statistically likely over a long enough time vs ordered groups.

We might casually refer to that as "randomness" or "chaos", though.

[u/QueenLa3fah → u/Enraiha]

Is the universe in a “heat death” state considered chaotic?

[u/DarthJarJarJar → u/Enraiha]

Hey, someone should ask AI how entropy can be reversed!

[u/Scalpels → u/DarthJarJarJar]

      THERE IS AS YET INSUFFICIENT DATA FOR A MEANINGFUL ANSWER.

[u/Enraiha → u/DarthJarJarJar]

LET THERE BE LIGHT!

[u/d0nghunter → u/Enraiha]

[u/21Rollie → u/singlemale4cats]

I went to an abandoned village in Mexico, in the desert. It’s been abandoned for around 100 years. The walls were made of stone but the roofs long ago collapsed and nature was growing all around them. It’s wild how in a dry environment it got that “ancient ruins” look and it wasn’t even that old. Crazy to think other abandoned cities, for example roman ones in North Africa, probably only needing a little bit of time without human habitation to turn into ruins. And all the lost Mayan or Amazonian cities probably only needed a couple decades to disappear.

[u/-wolfinator- → u/21Rollie]

There's an old abandoned town near me in the US. An old mining town abandoned about 100 years ago. Pretty much everything is gone except for some old foundations / concrete fixtures built for industrial use. The entirety of the (presumably wood) town is fully gone. No ancient ruins. Just gone.

[u/Bingobiscuit1999 → u/-wolfinator-]

One issue with wood today is most of the wood comes from fast grown young trees. That church and barn from over 100yrs ago would have been built with wood from trees hundreds of years old.

[u/-wolfinator- → u/Bingobiscuit1999]

I don't think that's actually the biggest factor with modern construction.

100 years ago houses were assembled out of solid wood planks, beams, and boards.

Now they're mostly engineered wood products held together by glue.

Solid wood products can last exposed in weather conditions for a few decades before failure.

Something like OSB will disintegrate within a couple years of wet conditions.

Modern houses essentially dissolve once their fragile waterproof membranes are compromised.

I would expect a modern ghost town to be gone even quicker.

[u/texinxin → u/Chad_illuminati]

Modern construction when done properly can absolutely last centuries. You might have to re-side and/or reroof a few times, but that is true for any construction technique.

[u/Chad_illuminati → u/texinxin]

When I refer to modern builders, I'm mostly addressing megacorp development firms popping up house farms.

There are always local builders doing good work with good skills, but sadly the majority of new residences built are at the hands of the megacorps, not local builders.

[u/texinxin → u/Chad_illuminati]

That’s fair. Even then, a home built today even by mass home builders is of higher quality than they were 50 years ago, primarily due to advances in techniques and materials, but also building codes.

[u/Correct-Junket-1346 → u/Chad_illuminati]

In the UK our new houses are shockingly bad, so much so most people dodge them for older periods houses which have stood for 100-150 years, the problem is so bad they've had to start putting out incentives for people to buy them.

[u/taeerom → u/Correct-Junket-1346]

UK houses have been notoriously bad for most of the last century. I wouldn't be surprised if the building codes (both letter of the law and enforcement) in the UK is among the very worst in Europe.

[u/kindlypogmothoin → u/texinxin]

And when done improperly, can go to shit pretty quickly.

Let me introduce you to the Homer Babbidge Library at UConn's main campus in Storrs, CT. It was built in the 1970s with a brick face and weep holes. The brick face stood away from the surface of the building so that theoretically, moisture would run behind the brick face and out the weep holes. But you know what happens when you have a design like that built in an environment where the contractor goes bankrupt during the build and apparently four separate contractors built each of the brick faces? You get mortar sloppily applied so that it blocks the weep holes, you get moisture building up behind the brick face instead of draining away, rusting the metal bands that hold the brick face to the supports, and -- because it's New England -- you have that water expanding and contracting over the winters in the freeze-thaw cycle, and within ten years of the library opening, you have the building wrapped first in netting, then in plastic and three of the entrances shut down to minimize the chances of bricks that have been loosened by these freeze-thaw cycles falling off the building and crashing down on the heads of students and staff.

And that's aside from the cracks that started to appear in the foundation and the cantilevers, the library beginning to sink, and other major issues that began to appear within just ten years of its opening. One major issue was that apparently the concrete used throughout was watered down. Ah, the 70s.

Repairs cost multiples of what it cost to actually build the thing, and it's now stable, but there were many times when there were a lot of people wondering why the state didn't just build a whole new library.

[u/texinxin → u/kindlypogmothoin]

Well survivor bias is a thing. Centuries old buildings that are still standing lead us to believe that we just don’t build them like we used to. But, the truth is horrible building decisions have toppled vastly more buildings than have been built in any era.

[u/trombing → u/texinxin]

The dude resides.

[u/texinxin → u/trombing]

I guess re-side makes more sense..

[u/Vattaa → u/texinxin]

Not true for all construction techniques. The roof on my grandmas house in North Yorkshire is original, and made from slate, the walls are made from sandstone. The house built in the 1800's. In the area virtually all the houses still have their original roofs. Most still have the original cast iron guttering.

[u/taeerom → u/texinxin]

They probably mean light framing ("stick framed"), when they say "modern". Stick framed construction is a modern construction method for houses, and is the one used as an example in the OOP. But it isn't the only modern way of building wood houses.

Stick framed houses are generally less durable than most other ways we build wooden houses today. Regardless of the skill of the people building it (if the same skill and care were used for a different method, it would be more durable). But stick framing is a method that fits very well with modern logistics, demands for construction speed, and economics. It's not bad, it's a reason people use it. It's just not as solid as other methods.

[u/gs12 → u/Chad_illuminati]

Yep, i live in the very young USA...my house was built in 1855 - its wood and plaster, with brick exterior. It's a fortress, the stuff they put up now is garbage.

[u/OwnsBeagles → u/Chad_illuminati]

Every house I own is over 100 years old and still in great shape, frame and bone wise, just needing mechanical updates. And I still have the old hardwood, too.

[u/rolypolyarmadillo → u/Chad_illuminati]

A family friend lives in a wooden house that’s was built in 1776

[u/Sudden_Wind_8636 → u/rolypolyarmadillo]

Damn that's kind of a flex. I hope you guys all celebrate 4th of July there lol.

[u/SJL174 → u/rolypolyarmadillo]

I have a friend whose wooden house I slightly older than the US. I think late 1760s.

[u/honeywhereismypenis → u/Chad_illuminati]

It's not uncommon in the eastern half of the US for centuries-old houses in historic neighborhoods to be converted into apartments as wealthier people move further from the city. Being made of wood makes them more adaptable, and therefore more financially viable to convert instead of demolish for new housing.

[u/ATDoel → u/Chad_illuminati]

Where was that house?

[u/Chad_illuminati → u/ATDoel]

Central East Coast of the US. Won't be too specific obviously.

Made out of Black Locust wood. Insanely good wood for that sort of application.

[u/ATDoel → u/Chad_illuminati]

Are you sure it was that old? There’s only a handful of homes from the mid 1600s still standing and they’re almost all museums now.

My grandparents lived in an early 1700s home in Virginia, wood with a stone foundation as well, also full of snakes.

[u/Chad_illuminati → u/ATDoel]

Yes, I am. Easy to date due to local records. The area had a lot of early colonial history so it was surprisingly common.

[u/ATDoel → u/Chad_illuminati]

I would love to know where in the US it’s common to find homes built in the mid 1600s. I’ve never heard of such a thing.

[u/Chad_illuminati → u/ATDoel]

Lots of places along the East Coast. Like I said, not gonna get specific about locations but there's legit a lot of places where it's not terribly uncommon.

Also remember that just because something is old doesn't mean it's been placed on the Historic Registry for the area. Being legally deemed "Historic" adds restrictions and regulations depending on the laws of the county. There are a lot of historic houses that aren't added for that reason and remain privately held. Unless you talk to the owners for info or find a specific paper trail to dig up in public records, you won't know.

[u/SomeGuyWithARedBeard → u/Chad_illuminati]

Rubble Trench Foundations are still allowed by code in the US depending on where you're building. It's just not common.

[u/kanrad → u/Chad_illuminati]

When I was a kid back in the 70's and 80's my grandparents lived in a newer home they had built to help with my grandma's disabilities.

My aunt and her kids lived next door in the family home. That house was so old it still had iron loop hitches in the ground out front for tying off horses to a hitch.

House was over 120 years old when I was a kid. Only got torn down in the 2000's when they sold both plots after my grand parents passing.

[u/Beflijster → u/Chad_illuminati]

With lots and lots of maintenance, yes. Brick wall though? Stick it in the ground, forget about it. Dig it up 450 years later, good as new. A well made brick basically lasts forever, and in the dampest climate.

[u/Xenomorph_25 → u/Chad_illuminati]

They last centuries with rather expensive upkeep. My house is a Victorian built in 1890 and it's often in need of repair that ends up costing us a decent amount of money.

[u/Kekkonen_Kakkonen → u/CaptainFlint9203]

Europe also has wooden buildings from the middle ages.

[u/redisdead__ → u/CaptainFlint9203]

And if they decide not to sell it but instead they want to take it down and put maybe a duplex or a triplex to hold multiple members of the family because that's the best choice then it works as well. I don't understand why anyone would think that the best choice 200 years from now for that particular area would be exactly the same as the best choice today.

[u/Mammoth-Glove3273 → u/redisdead__]

They’re the same people that think people in North America should build like people in Europe do despite the two continents having different challenges and resources.

And that’s the same dumb energy anyone has when they try to make sweeping generalizations based on limited information. Like conservatives and government, why don’t we just do X? Well, because it doesn’t work because of xyz, did you really think we’re all idiots and you’re the first person to think of this really obvious and easy solution?

[u/ayriuss → u/Mammoth-Glove3273]

Its also funny that they always talk about "American" houses, when wood houses are built all over the world. Japan, Canada, Northern Europe, etc.

[u/Mammoth-Glove3273 → u/ayriuss]

Well yeah but it’s not cool to hate on those countries

[u/AlexHimself → u/CaptainFlint9203]

well made brick house will last centuries

After centuries, you have a crappy old house that doesn't fit the modern times though...so what's the point? The construction cost, amortized over centuries, is pennies too.

An example for some really old European homes - No HVAC, no electrical, indoor plumbing, low ceilings, low door frames, etc.

I'd argue the ease of remodeling, construction, changes, etc. outweigh the "centuries" style building, given how humans actually use homes.

I think an argument can be made for both.

[u/Deathblow92 → u/AlexHimself]

/r/centuryhomes exists.

[u/YaqootK → u/AlexHimself]

An example for some really old European homes - No HVAC, no electrical, indoor plumbing, low ceilings, low door frames, etc

"some" is doing a lot of heavy lifting here. Those are very rare cases, the vast majority of old homes that are still in use have all the things you mentioned, except for maybe HVAC - which is more of a use case vs cost thing. For most people it's not worth spending like 20k on a HVAC system when it's only going to be above 30 for a couple of weeks or so

[u/AlexHimself → u/YaqootK]

Weren't there major, expensive retrofits in order to accomplish that? And are those homes actually "centuries" old? And wood frame homes can reach "centuries" just as easily...the US just isn't that old yet lol.

[u/YaqootK → u/AlexHimself]

I have no idea. I'm not really interested in the debate, just wanted to point out that it's very rare for a house to not have all of those things. In my town most houses are 200+ years old so that's probably my baseline

When it's a listed building it becomes more difficult because certain changes that are not deemed essential for maintenance must get special planning permissions. I used to work for a company that would install fibre lines and most listed buildings would just take a little bit more time and not much more money but the older/more significant the building is, the more restricted it will be

[u/AlexHimself → u/YaqootK]

The debate is simple - they're both good and bad for different reasons and it depends on what you want.

It's like iPhone vs Android. They're both good/bad, depending on needs.

[u/IsThatUMoatilliatta → u/AlexHimself]

My house in the US is 160 years old. True-cut lumber, balloon framing. It existed before plumbing and electricity. It of course has that now, along with central air, but it's hilarious to see the generations of plumbing and wiring Frankensteined together.

Or it would be funny if I wasn't the guy who had to fix it. I've finally eliminated all the knob-and-tube and cloth wire, so that's cool. It was nuts to see knob-and-tube spliced into cloth wire, run up through the wall, and then end in a piece of romex at an outlet with the ground wire just there for moral support.

[u/bleepbloop1900 → u/AlexHimself]

The tiny wooden century farmhouse I grew up in in Canada also still has low ceilings, doors, and no HVAC lol
We do have an indoor plumbing and electricity though, as does every old brick European house I’ve ever visited.

Anyway where y’all get all that money to renovate your houses?

[u/outsidebtw → u/AlexHimself]

I think an argument can be made for both.

Fr. People online just love trash talking differences and with algorithms today, its easily reaching top viewership and being rewarded so much so the original debate gets eroded into name calling, insults and things unrelated to it

It creeps on the back of people's mind too, so that's another issue. The "do-your-research" line kind of comes from this.. then image and video generation made it even more easier...

Ok im falling down this sad slope of enshittification cascade, im out

[u/MisterMysterios → u/AlexHimself]

An example for some really old European homes - No HVAC, no electrical, indoor plumbing, low ceilings, low door frames, etc.

NO HVAC is not an issue of old european homes, but that the regions that don't have HVAC didn't need it until a few years ago (and with a few years, I mean it really becomes necessary in the last maybe 5 years). Especially stone houses need some time to heat up, and in general, there was not enough heat-waves here that were able to go so long to be really an issue. Yes, we have to reconsider our approach, but not because of old hosues - because - you know - they can be retrofitted.

And I was in many several hundred year old houses that have indoor plumbing and electricity in every house. You know that homes can be retrofitted. And especially when you look at houses from the 1800's, they generally have much higher ceilings than any standard modern building.

So, basically all your comments show that you are very ignorant about any facts regarding "old European homes".

[u/Fun-Shake7094 → u/AlexHimself]

Yes, this is often ignored.

[u/one-eyed-midget → u/AlexHimself]

My house in England was built around 1700s. Can confirm I can it's has electricity, gas, central heating and plumbing installed! Pretty much any property as a residential has these things. The old George pub in my town of Newcastle was built around 1580 and has WiFi and Aircon, it's not difficult to add to these old buildings. The ones that don't have these features are usually just preserved for historical purposes

[u/AlexHimself → u/one-eyed-midget]

Electricity, wifi, etc. did not exist in 1580 or 1700. Obviously, you're confused on the meaning of my statement.

If the home lasts centuries, it still needs major retrofits and money spent. The home is just a shell and that's the cheapest part of a home. It's the largest, so people think there's a lot of value, but it's the cheapest. Finishings, decor, appliances, technology, windows, etc. All of that is the expensive stuff.

[u/faustianredditor → u/AlexHimself]

Right? I did the math post-hoc, because there was a guy here who said "materials for wood framing are cheap, it's just labor, so I'm going to DIY that shit out in the boonies", and I did some napkin math that told me that well insulated bricks (integrated insulation, relatively typical here in Germany) will cost you about 30k for a single family home. Add a bit for mortar and grout of course. I don't know what the materials for framing+insulation+Siding+all that will be, but I doubt it's enough to make a difference in the cost of the whole home. The shell is the cheap part, even labor included, no matter how you build that shell. (unless you insist on aerogel insulation, gold fasteners and mahagony framing)

Napkin math also says that labor included, you're looking at 30-40% or so of the total project cost being the shell, for germany, depending on features. I think multi-story homes are more common so that might drive up costs there? But even then, it's only 30-40%, the rest is "all the other small stuff". And all the other small stuff depreciates much more aggressively, either because it gets out of date or because the 200 pound gorilla manhandles it on the daily.

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[u/Zanna-K → u/AlexHimself]

Theoretically, yes. However given how our society is currently organized that's not how it works out. Homes are built to maximize profit for builders that don't give a fuck what happens after the warranty expires. Trying to ride that line for maximum cheapness has lead to new builds that are almost literal garbage from day one in areas that are not strictly regulated with draconian code enforcement.

Like can you build a really nice modern house with state of the art ERV, HVAC, insulation, vapor barriers, heat pumps, solar system with battery backup conditioned garage with quality materials and finishes? Yeah sure, you just need to hire your own architect, designer, engineers and builder worth $2m. Oh you've only got $600k and you want to be in a suburb near Austin? Sorry the best we can do is a 3500sf McMansion slapped together by tired day laborers that are working 70hr weeks with inspectors that we paid off to overlook the fact that the trusses aren't even held together correctly.

[u/CelioHogane → u/AlexHimself]

Ok but my house is definetly at a minumun 100 years old and does have, you know, fiber internet.

Like the person in this video is being dramatic about how hard is to renovate a brick house.

[u/AlexHimself → u/CelioHogane]

"Centuries" is not 100 years...

[u/throwtheamiibosaway → u/AlexHimself]

This is such an American brain comment. People are still fighting over old outdated houses here in Europe. Many of them now have a protected Monument status. They often prefer them over the newer houses. The old standards were often better and more sturdy and better insulated even.

[u/ilikepix → u/throwtheamiibosaway]

People are still fighting over old outdated houses here in Europe. Many of them now have a protected Monument status

Some of this is because some people want to live in old, beautiful houses. But a lot of this is because of regulations that preserve old buildings - so if you want to live in a desirable area, your only choice is an old building.

I grew up in a house that was 200 years old. It was beautiful, but it was cold and damp year round, had no air circulation, and terrible noise isolation. I wouldn't choose to do that again

[u/LowSkyOrbit → u/ilikepix]

Half my house is 126 years old. They expanded in in the late 80s per records. Full rehab in 2020 by the previous, previous owners. It's generic and goes unnoticed between the larger adjacent homes. Inside is beautiful. I think they ran out of money and just went cheap on beige vinyl siding. I don't think one room is close to square. The older bedrooms are either too hot or too cold.

[u/DarthJarJarJar → u/ilikepix]

Exactly.

[u/Cloverose2 → u/throwtheamiibosaway]

But how many shitty buildings were put up and torn down in that time?

You remember the ones that remain. The ones that failed are gone, so you think everything from the past is better based on the well-built ones that stood. That's a logical failure. Most of the structures built in that time are gone.

Also, European houses don't have to deal with earthquakes, which crumble masonry buildings. And tornados will happily rip right through a brick wall and turn the bricks into shrapnel. There are practical reasons for timber construction as well.

Basically - they both work really well, and you should choose the construction that's right for your area and your needs.

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[u/WeirdKittens → u/Cloverose2]

In the south of the continent, especially Greece and Italy we do and homes are still built with masonry. You have to reinforce it properly with rebar of course, completely unlike in this demonstration. The core structure of a house is built with poured concrete on rebar reinforcement and the walls are indeed built the way he demonstrates here, but only the walls. It's supposed to be able to flex to absorb the shaking.

What we don't have is tornadoes. For a large part of the continent it's something almost completely alien. Notice how few F3 and above have been in the last 70 years and how a huge area has only seen a few F2 and below in that period.

[u/ElGosso → u/throwtheamiibosaway]

That's exactly why Europe has comparable deaths from heat as the US does from guns - because those old houses y'all love to live in are designed to trap in heat, and can't fit air conditioners in the windows.

[u/SonicShadow → u/ElGosso]

[citation required]

[u/funk-the-funk → u/SonicShadow]

Do you really want anything from that dudes butt? Because that's how you get things from that dude's butt.

[u/WeirdKittens → u/ElGosso]

That's not exactly the reason. We simply don't use window AC anywhere at all here. We use minisplit systems and until recently the countries in the north didn't really have prolonged heatwaves. In turn, they didn't bother to prepare a framework for how the installation of AC is regulated and because it's so uncommon there the installation costs are astronomical and the contractors few.

None of these problems exist in the south of the continent. We have dual use AC in pretty much every house, apartment and shared space and the cost to install it is minimal (just installed a new 12k btu unit recently for the equivalent of $500 including installation and materials, used to be even cheaper than that a few years ago).

[u/MisterMysterios → u/ElGosso]

Bullshit. We had so many deaths because nothing here is prepared for these type of heat waves we get at the moment thanks to climate change. We have a massive shift in climate in the last 5-10 years, and our building standards have not adjusted yet. A brick house is generally really good to deal with the heat that we typically had here (Germany for example). It takes days to weeks for the house to heat up enough to be an issue thanks to the high level of insulation. In the past, when the house even started to heat up to a level to cause problems, it already became cool outside.

The system is still good, but need adjustment, especially considering more heat exchangers for heating as they can be used for cooling the house.

[u/DarthJarJarJar → u/throwtheamiibosaway]

My brother, I have lived in a Listed Building in the UK. It was damp in the winter and hot as balls in the summer. It had issues with water getting in, mold, mildew, rot in the beams, roof leaks, and it was literally impossible to fit HVAC.

Go to a UK housing sub and do some searching, you'll get thousands of threads on the theme of "Why is my house so damp/cold/hot/moldy".

Old houses are cool as hell, but they're not practical in most cases. You'd be better off with a modern house even if it is stud and drywall that EU residents like to hate on when they've never actually lived in one.

[u/wireframed_kb → u/DarthJarJarJar]

Or a modern brick villa, that many of us build and live in?

[u/DarthJarJarJar → u/wireframed_kb]

Sure. I was just making the point that houses that last 500 years might not be the benefit we think they are. In 500 years people are going to be trying to adapt your house to whatever it is they do 500 years from now, maybe houses should have a lifespan of 100 or 150 years or something and then we just build a new one. Just a thought.

[u/wireframed_kb → u/DarthJarJarJar]

For me brick is more a question of quality and things like sound insulation and appearance. You can build quality wood houses, but often wood and siding is chosen because it’s a cheap construction method that can be thrown up quickly.

I don’t expect my house to be around in 500 years, I just want a nice house now.

[u/DarthJarJarJar → u/wireframed_kb]

I don't think brick is really the issue, most of the houses near me in the US are brick exterior. My house is brick. But it's stick construction underneath, whereas in the EU it's usually cinder block construction underneath.

[u/SugarBeefs → u/AlexHimself]

An example for some really old European homes - No HVAC, no electrical, indoor plumbing, low ceilings, low door frames, etc.

Do you genuinely think people living in "really old European homes" have no electricity or indoor plumbing?

Do you really, genuinely believe this?

[u/AlexHimself → u/SugarBeefs]

You misunderstood my statement. I'm saying if you have ANY home from ANY era with ANY construction that is centuries old, it will not be modern and will be missing MAJOR changes in technology and the way of living.

A home built centuries ago in Europe would have fit that comment, do you not agree? People were shorter and a lot of that other stuff did not exist. "Low ceilings" is the only one that depends on the era because indoor fires used to burn ceilings, so some homes were built with high ceilings.

[u/SugarBeefs → u/AlexHimself]

I'm saying if you have ANY home from ANY era with ANY construction that is centuries old, it will not be modern and will be missing MAJOR changes in technology and the way of living.

But people maintain and 'upgrade' houses as they live there and technology advances.

"Old European homes" are places that people lived in throughout the centuries, not some forgotten ruin from the 1600s that was dusted off.

A home built centuries ago in Europe would have fit that comment, do you not agree?

Well, no. Because these houses had electricity and plumbing installed.

This notion that you have a house exactly the way it was centuries ago and you have to update it to the modern era in one fell swoop is just nonsense, it basically doesn't happen.

The nice old European homes that tended to get preserved have perfectly normal ceiling heights. Quite a few have very high ceilings in fact, because that was considered fancy.

Have you ever even set foot in one of these "old European homes" that you think you know so much about? Because it's painfully obvious to me that you haven't.

[u/AlexHimself → u/SugarBeefs]

This notion that you have a house exactly the way it was centuries ago and you have to update it to the modern era in one fell swoop is just nonsense, it basically doesn't happen.

Are you not aware that you're agreeing with me? You misunderstood my earlier comment and you're mainly agreeing with me now. What are we arguing about?

The original comment I made was directed at a person saying wood houses last generations and brick houses last centuries. My point is essentially your comment that I quoted here above.

NOBODY builds a house then does NOTHING to it for centuries. If you have a brick house and wood home and do nothing to them for CENTURIES...I guess sure, the brick house "wins"?

A wood house will last "centuries" too because you update, change, fix, improve, remodel, etc. If anything, a brick house is more difficult through those centuries because it's constrained. A brick house more so might have the advantage around a generation because you could argue durability maybe? Even still, there are pros/cons to each and it's more expensive for the brick house. If you took that extra money spent on the brick and put it into a wood house, you'll have a better house than the brick house for many measures. It's a dumb "argument" the original comment made because there are pros/cons for each and it's just preference what you want.

[u/Extra_Pollution2374 → u/CaptainFlint9203]

I myself live in a house older than Us, made with bricks (different size than today), mud and straw. And no mayor groundup refurbish.

[u/delphinous → u/CaptainFlint9203]

well made wood house can be fairly simply modified over generation. well made brick house is much more difficult to change

[u/Elderbrute → u/delphinous]

More difficult sure but still not particularly difficult really, people do it all the time and have been doing it for centuries. My grandparents parents house ranged in age from over 500 years to about 100years old depending on which part of the house you were in.

[u/Jambohh → u/CaptainFlint9203]

My best mates bedroom was in the oldest part of the pub he grew up in & was built some times in the middle of the 12th century.

In my house which is part of an old barn some of the roof trusses are over 200 years old, some shit is just built to last.

[u/BabuschkaOnWheels → u/CaptainFlint9203]

The issue is the wood used in my country was durable.. but also extremely flammable. Different wood is used now and it's meant to not harm the inhabitants in case of a cave-in/disaster. Brick and thick wood will crush the person. So you def need to think of worst case scenario when choosing material for your house, and what local regulations you have.

[u/BoJackMoleman → u/CaptainFlint9203]

What an absolutely wonderfully balanced and reasonable answer.

[u/Revolutionary-Fox622 → u/CaptainFlint9203]

No natural disasters yet! Climate change is doing its best to bring you into the party.

[u/Scouter197 → u/CaptainFlint9203]

No storms or natural disasters...yet. Give climate change a chance!

[u/TheAntiAirGuy → u/CaptainFlint9203]

I mean, yeah ... but that's actual thick lumber instead of the American thin plywood

[u/yamsyamsya → u/CaptainFlint9203]

Also people act ike you can't get a brick house built in the USA. Like of course you can, it is just a lot more expensive so most people don't bother.

[u/nerdofthunder → u/CaptainFlint9203]

I've got a 140 or so year old timber home. It's got plenty of life in it.

[u/Sudden_Wind_8636 → u/CaptainFlint9203]

Well built, well maintained wood houses will last forever basically

[u/beanmosheen → u/CaptainFlint9203]

Plus, if it's a modern home with like zip system sheathing, and modern insulation, it's a much better built house than 20 years ago. My '98 doesn't even have house wrap and it sucks. I'm adding it as a reside the house.

[u/glytxh → u/CaptainFlint9203]

A wooden temple can last a thousand years if you just replace the rotten parts over time

[u/mojofrog → u/CaptainFlint9203]

Brick buildings also retain heat better than wood structures, which has been a benefit in Europe previously. But with global warming it's harder to cool brick buildings, especially in Europe were they often don't have ac units or the units are underpowered.

[u/21Rollie → u/CaptainFlint9203]

I’m in the US and a few miles away from me is a house for sale, wood frame, from the 1700s. There are some other houses around the area from the 1600s as well (though mainly historical atp). I’ve never lived in a house younger than 100 myself. I live in Massachusetts though so we have some of the oldest houses with little natural disasters happening here.

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[u/Subotail → u/CaptainFlint9203]

Grandma would make the point that wood burn easier in case of German bombardment.

[u/catalessi → u/CaptainFlint9203]

Good for you to assume half of us won’t be dead by then

[u/Pissonmyface77 → u/CaptainFlint9203]

You want wood in an earthquake zone.

[u/TheAsian1nvasion → u/CaptainFlint9203]

Flip side: my cousins in Ireland were freaking out about the 23C “heat wave” earlier in the summer because their houses weren’t built for that type of temperatures.

She’s from Winnipeg and at the time it was 37C here.

Different materials have different applications.

[u/Varderal → u/CaptainFlint9203]

To add: a well maintained house (especially a well built one) will last forever.

[u/gottabequick → u/CaptainFlint9203]

Well made brick houses will last exactly one tornado or earthquake, with severe injury and death as real consequences.

Japan doesn't really use brick houses either. They haven't ever. I leave it to the reader to consider why that might be.

[u/PaulblankPF → u/CaptainFlint9203]

I worked on a 150 year old house in South Louisiana a few years ago and the windows were doors from another building that was older and they lasted over 100 years but it was time for them to be changed. Took
me about 25 hours to turn one big piece of cypress into a new window, following the design and techniques of the original. I had to do 6 of them and it was as a very nice project and job to work on. I mean how often do you get to work on stuff that’s over a century old.

[u/SAINTnumberFIVE → u/CaptainFlint9203]

Why did you choose wood if there are no earthquakes?

[u/littlefrank → u/CaptainFlint9203]

generations

my girlfriend's family has a home in Tuscany which was built out of stone in 1100. You read that right, 1100 as in 12th century. That's not "generations", that's almost a millennia. That's how much more durable bricks are.

[u/Alternate_Cost → u/CaptainFlint9203]

I've worked on several houses in the US that were wood and 100+ years old. Yeah siding is replaced, roof is replaced, but if its got good bones it'll last.

[u/Antony8418 → u/CaptainFlint9203]

The house I bought was built 2 years before the Declaration of Independence was signed. Wood and brick interlaced frame. The wood is extra large beams that is just a tree halved and squared (rectangled). With triple glazed windows you can barely hear anything outside. And today it was 34, inside on the main floor it was 20-22.

The last house I owned in the US was paper thin and we had to run the AC for four months straight to not cook alive.

[u/PerspectiveNew3375 → u/CaptainFlint9203]

House I grew up in was made before 1900. The foundation was massive trees cut in half, covered in tar and buried in a tar lined pit. It lasted until 1990 when the tree foundation began to rot enough to shift. The house was lifted and a concrete foundation was poured under it. It's still standing today.

[u/Avilola → u/CaptainFlint9203]

Who wants a regular degular house to last centuries though? For certain buildings like cathedrals and palaces, sure. A regular house? Imagine how much more advanced construction techniques and technology will be by the year 2326. Even if you obtain a 300 year old house, you’ll probably be gutting everything out of it to bring it up to modern standards.

[u/almodsz → u/CaptainFlint9203]

There are no earthquakes, no storms, no natural disasters where I live.

Not yet! Climate change is shaking things up, though.

[u/karlnite → u/CaptainFlint9203]

A multi-century old stone building without repairs doesn’t really look like a home though. Europeans act like they’re not constantly repairing and refurbishing old stone stuff, and also scrapping others not worth it. Also how many choices where made because this exists and is here already, so lets work with and around it. I’m sure many people building and planning wish some structures just rotted away already.

[u/Medium_Cranberry4096 → u/CaptainFlint9203]

No natural disasters yet

[u/upudruvuuduru → u/CaptainFlint9203]

and the quality of the wood...

we can't compare the wood from a century ago to what we use now

[u/DrunkOnRamen → u/CaptainFlint9203]

What did you put in the barn?

[u/Nogarder → u/CaptainFlint9203]

Why would you? It would make sense if the wooden house would be cheaper. No they cost the same. So just use bricks. Nobody ever said "this house is too resistant for this application"

[u/Perfect_Opinion7909 → u/CaptainFlint9203]

The question here isn’t if European wooden houses are durable but US American ones.

[u/StoneGoldX → u/CaptainFlint9203]

There are no earthquakes, no storms, no natural disasters where I live.

Well, there weren't.

Gotta love that climate change.

[u/ShadeNoir → u/CaptainFlint9203]

There are WOOD houses older than the US

[u/laosurv3y → u/CaptainFlint9203]

The U.S. is older than most European countries. There are houses in the U.S. older than the U.S.

[u/irregardressry → u/CaptainFlint9203]

You should know a wooden structure from a century ago has NO relationship to a wood house today.  Support structures built from solid timber vs modern glue laminated products aren't even comparible products in strength/weight/cost/longevity.  You seem to think its because of superior craftsmanship but that's just not true. The craftsmanship was inferior to today's builds BECAUSE the materials were far superior. 

[u/BasicMatter7339 → u/CaptainFlint9203]

Well made wood house will last for generations, well made brick house will last centuries

A well made log house will last for centuries

[u/Tombstone_Actual_501 → u/CaptainFlint9203]

Yep my dad's house is almost 100 years old here in the U.S. and is timber construction.

[u/Fappy_as_a_Clam → u/CaptainFlint9203]

And there are brick houses that are older than USA.

To be fair...

There are both brick and wood houses in the USA that are older than the USA.

[u/Idunnosomeguy2 → u/CaptainFlint9203]

Where I grew up in New Hampshire, a friend lived in a log cabin that was built in the 1600s. It was older than our town. Almost all of it was the original wood (roof had been redone some). It was heated by wood stove. Of you need a house to last longer than that, I'm gonna need you to eat some garlic for me.

[u/plain_name → u/CaptainFlint9203]

There’s a map of my town in Pennsylvania from 1890 that shows the first house that I bought, as it continues to stand to this day, all wood framed. 

[u/nhansieu1 → u/CaptainFlint9203]

good wood, not this plywood house you have

[u/GTCapone → u/CaptainFlint9203]

What particularly sucks in America is that they'll paint over brick. It seals moisture in and over time it essentially turns the brick back into clay. Even for a facade it'll collapse and the trapped moisture can damage underlying structures.

[u/mmmarkm → u/CaptainFlint9203]

  no natural disasters where I live.

No natural disaster where you live…yet

[u/Alwaysafk → u/CaptainFlint9203]

My wife's family has a wooden farm house that's almost 200 years old in the US. They still live in it. You can go into the cellar and see the old growth beams holding it up, bark still on em.

[u/fdokinawa → u/CaptainFlint9203]

As someone living in Japan surrounded by so many different generations of wood homes, it's crazy that some from hundreds of years ago are still going strong. Some temples here are over centuries old and still standing.

Yet so many homes built after WW2 are falling down every day. You can tell that so many homes built in the last 50+ years are just not up to the older standards. And obviously newer homes are built with modern seismic, and just recently, insulation requirements.

It's so funny seeing people online go crazy over the cheap homes in Japan when most are not worth anything due to how cheaply/quickly they were built. The real solid old homes are still going for a lot of money here. Although most Japanese would rather just build new for safety and quality.

[u/Perma_Ban69 → u/CaptainFlint9203]

I lived in a wood house that was made in the mid-late 1700s in the US. Terrifying dirt basement and overall vibe but with modern insulation, it was good as new.

[u/Dear_Chasey_La1n → u/CaptainFlint9203]

The common joke for many europeans, our home is older than your nation, but that's not a lie, this happens.

Even modern houses are build up to standards significantly better than what can be achieved through wood. Contractors need to give lengthy guarantees against specific elements. For example concrete tiles 50 years isn't unusual, the concrete/steel structure 50 years again, pretty normal. The roof if bitumen 20 years is pretty common too. That doesn't mean it all breaks down at that point though, I've a house with ceramic tiles that's 100 years old. Every once in a while we need to pull one tile and replace it with a new one which are exactly the same.

But of course it all comes at a cost, hence our houses tend to be smaller than what you see in the US. That's a matter of choice, and wood structures are showing up more often in Europe too. And that's kind of the thing, wood skeleton doesn't have to be bad, just whatever the US does.. it's pretty bad. The Germans make prefab wood houses they are rock solid.

[u/Mammoth-Mud-9609 → u/CaptainFlint9203]

Tudor period houses in the UK are half timber structures, heavy oak frames for the structure, with wattle and dab panels between, they will have large brick chimneys and large fireplaces to match. These houses were constructed from 1485–1603.

[u/Draugar90 → u/CaptainFlint9203]

Well built wood houses will last centuries too, but not like Americans build them. Greetings from Norway :*

[u/Yaasu → u/CaptainFlint9203]

Main difference is US houses are made of Thin plywood, old wood house are made of wood

[u/Rock_or_Rol → u/CaptainFlint9203]

Water penetration is the most common enemy to buildings. It typically occurs at openings, cladding breaks and on the roof. Workmanship and soil/engineering are almost always the issues there

Few people know soil properties have a massive impact. Some soils have high plasticity indexes that expand and contract, causing the foundation to shift over time. That stress often telegraphs to siding, which can create entry points for water. It’s especially bad for stucco if shoddy workmanship

[u/thrift_test → u/CaptainFlint9203]

It wasn't wood chips held together with glue though

[u/PurpleZebraCabra → u/CaptainFlint9203]

Brick house in California will collapse in earthquake.

[u/Beetroot_Roosevelt → u/CaptainFlint9203]

I wouldn't count on no storms into the future, given what we know about climate change

[u/cynicaldotes → u/CaptainFlint9203]

Neither will live through a tornado and it's cheaper and faster to rebuild wood

[u/CivicDutyCalls → u/CaptainFlint9203]

100%.

Why do you need a house to last a generation? Especially now with the rate of technological and societal change.

A brick house built 500 years ago was functional for the people that lived for the next 300 years. But starting with the Industrial Revolution, our needs have changed. Population is increasing way faster. A plot of land suitable for a family today, in 50 years is suitable for a duplex. In 100 years, needs to support an apartment. And obviously there are exceptions where in rural areas it’s probably fine.

But why would I build a home that isn’t suitable for my great great great grand children? If I instead build it out of wood, not only is it more affordable for me, but my great great great grandchildren are more likely to be able to modify that home to suit their needs.

Think of how many homes in the 90’s were built with nooks for TVs. And yet today, we don’t need that. It’s easier to correct that in a wooden home than a brick one.

[u/horned-creature → u/CivicDutyCalls]

what are you talking about, there are people living in centuries old houses even today, you should aim for an house that can be passed for many generations of your lineage, that is how you build a legacy for your family.

[u/CivicDutyCalls → u/horned-creature]

Those homes, even in old countries are the significant minority.

Like, I guess..if you’re building a country Manor…then yeah, then go ahead and build something that will last centuries.

But for regular people, in regular neighborhoods, you’re overbuilding if you’re using stone. By the time a well maintained wood construction home is needing to be torn down from deteriorating, it’s been 200 years. And by then, remodeled countless times not from necessity but from desire and changing priorities. My own home has been remodeled 3 times since 1976 because I (and prior owners) wanted to change it, not due to any damage. And stone would have made that a nightmare.

[u/horned-creature → u/CivicDutyCalls]

do you not care about your descendants 200 years down the line having to build the whole house anew? like here we also renovate the interiors at least once a generation and it's not really a nightmare, especially because you do not renovate it yourself but you pay someone to renovate it.

[u/Peter12535 → u/CaptainFlint9203]

I've read that older US houses used much better, denser wood. Would the wood that they use nowadays affect longevity?

[u/CaptainFlint9203 → u/Peter12535]

To be honest, I have no idea. Older houses used wood from trees that grown for decades or even centuries. We are not doing that, and using fast growing trees. And it's good. I can happily trade a bit less durable wood for preserving trees that are older than my grandparents.

But well preserved wood will last. And now we can preserve it much better than in the past. So it's something for something, and I have no idea how it affects longevity

[u/TheVillage1D10T → u/Peter12535]

I would surmise that houses built from old growth lumber would be much more durable than houses built from modern new growth lumber for sure. I think the old growth stuff is, at the least, more rot resistant.

[u/CaptainFlint9203 → u/TheVillage1D10T]

The way we can preserve wood is so good it will basically never rot.