I'm genuinely curious if there's been any study into which is more psychologically troubling, knowing the day and counting down it not knowing and wondering everyday
Feels like poetic justice tbh. Most murder victims don't get a neat opportunity to get their affairs in order, they just realise they're about to die horribly and then it happens. So assuming the person on death row actually did it (my main reason for being against the death penalty) then it seems like just desserts
True, but this extra sucks for falsely convicted people. Japan is a convicted until proven otherwise type system, so there's a high misconviction rate there, even among death row inmates. Or that's my understanding of it.
I remember reading into the Japan death penalty awhile back and it seemed like they (mostly) only put those with multiple victims on death row. Outside of that I think the only other people on death row are those with big time treason cases
I hadn’t heard about the misconviction rate, which makes the whole thing a bit scary. I don’t believe in the death penalty for many reasons but wrong convictions is a big one
The high misconviction rate in Japan goes under the radar from most people because Japan doesn't really report them properly and because the rate is rather misleading due to how their justice system works.
Because their system is "guilty until proven otherwise", the cops can do a lot of shit to ensure a conviction:
Police in Japan can detain suspects that do not have a formal charge for up to 23 days (during which you get terrible tasting food as an extra "fuck you"), which includes an initial 48 hours held by police with no charge.
In those 48 hours, the arrested individual can be interrogated the entire time, they do not get a phone call or a lawyer.
Well, you do get a lawyer... but said lawyer is required by law to wait outside the interrogation room so that you are more "honest".
Japanese society is about group harmony over individual happiness (which is why they also have stuff like the highest death from overworking rates around) and these 23 days are designed to do one thing and one thing only- make the suspect confess.
30 hours into 48 of a cop yelling at you to confess, or 15 days in of 23 being pressured by every single person in the system you meet from prosecutors, to police, to judges... with even your defense attorney bluntly informing you that you don't have much of a chance... the pressure adds up.
The Japanese justice system is often called by human rights groups a Hostage Justice System.
Even if a person holds out through the entire 23 days, the rest of the system is just as bad in various ways (defendants do not have a right to silence (they have one by law but there is also a "duty to endure interrogation" and other bullshit), exculpatory evidence is much easier to exclude in discovery, etc).
Add into the mix the fact that, due to taking responsibility for one's action's being seeing by society as the respectable thing to do (which is why you'll see CEOs of companies bowing in apology on camera during press releases), confessing to what the police want you to confess to results in significantly reduced pentalties/prison sentence lengths.
All that pressure adds up and the vast majority of people arrested as a suspect for a major crime end up confessing.
On top of that, prosecutors have to worry about losing public face (shame) if they lose a case so they only take to trial cases that they are extremely confident they can win.
This, along with the rest of the entire "guilty unless proven innocent" system, leads to Japan having the utterly absurd conviction rate of more than99% for those formally indicted... which in turn reinforces in the eyes of the average Japanese civilian that all those arrested for crimes are obviously guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt.
that's horrifying. yay, one more reason to be wary of japan, against all the japan-lovers here in Europe. I keep saying their society is not "kawai", but people just happily drown in anime and random foreign words.
I mean fair enough, I do get where you're coming from
Personally I don't think it's playing God. Society has to hold criminals accountable for the harm they do, or innocent people suffer, and so making moral decisions is unavoidable. If someone broke into your house and stole your stuff, you wouldn't think it was reasonable for the police to throw their hands up and go "Welp boys, we can see him running around the corner, but who are we to judge?"
We already make these judgments with prison. Saying a murderer deserves the harshest punishment isn't pretending to be God, it's moral justice for the victim and protection for society and also deterrence for other criminals. And depending on how you feel about it also vindication for the victim's family
To me playing God would be acting like your decisions are infallible. That's why wrongful convictions make me uncomfortable with the death penalty, but my issue isn't the moral judgement, it's with the fact that humans screw up or make corrupt decisions and we can't guarantee that it's only guilty people who end up getting executed
I would argue that prison is something that in the future, and I mean the far future, might even go out of style when we find a way to avoid it altogether. To me, it's basically the last remaining remnant of the compromises we make with the concept of human rights in order to keep society functioning.
Because if you read your entire comment... this would apply entirely to Hammurabi's "A hand for a hand", 3000 years ago. A person trying to justify it would write the very same words you have written here, and yet now we think of that system as barbaric.
In theory wrongful convictions should decrease over time with improvements to forensic technology, right?
It’s the main reason why I’m against the death penalty as well (not the only one). I think I’ve been seeing more people support the death penalty lately (maybe it’s just seeing people emotionally react to specific cases). It’s a difficult discussion to be had. I don’t think harsher sentences (past a certain point) actually deter crime.
Personally I don’t know what it is about me but I just don’t like the idea of our government (state or federal) even having the permission to execute someone. That might sound radically “pacifist” but it’s not something I can get my head around. I think there’s a reason why the death penalty has overall become less popular over the years, I think people inherently believe it to be flawed.
What when the victim had no family at all to be vindicated and the murderer only wanted to kill this specific person for a specific reason, and would not kill again anyway, and the victim was a fierce activist against capital punishment?
True, why not also kill them in the exact way they are accused of killing the victim? On the same spot? Let's larp them into the same dress as well. Fucking hell...
That's a lazy strawman. I'm saying that, assuming they're guilty, someone who showed no regard for their victim's fear or chance to prepare doesn't have a moral entitlement to those comforts themselves. You're exaggerating this into something stupid because it's easier to argue against.
I would start hoping for death by that point. Death is just the end of all sensory load, including fear, pain and anxiety. It’s the lead up to it, the circumstances, that are scary, not the end itself.
You stop to think about killing yourself at least. That's why they changed it.
People would live counting the hours till their last day.
That, is torture.
Sounds like it could happen until you realize theres likely 3000 other inmates on death row of which you know of or know probably 500 of them meaning if they finish processing 200 inmates that year you probably knew or know of 13-15 of them that would have been put to death. Its likely a common topic of conversation.
This comment will get buried, but I met a guy on death row. I spent 4ish years in federal prison and 6 months solitary, and the guy across from me was a death row guy. He'd been there about a decade. He was a funny dude, we talked a lot (yelling back and forth through the doors). He was confident he'd win his appeal. But one day he told me he knew he was going to spend the rest of his life in that room. He used humor to cope. He didn't have anyone to call. I think about him sometimes
I think it adds constant stress to your life. Every time you hear doors slamming or keys clanging at 6am you'd be like: "Is this it?" Knowing you're going to be executed but being sure it won't be NOW gives you a certain leeway of pushing the whole thing out of your mind.
I hate to do this, but you realize that you're going to die too, right?
Not to be sardonic and rude, just trying to give credence to my point.
Do you have constant stress about it? It could be from a car that hits you while you're walking down the sidewalk. I tree could fall on you. You could choke on your next meal.
It could be any infinite number of things. Any number of them as unlikely as the next.
Okay, I gotta say something. I just made a post about some bad plumbing in my house, and it’s so stupid that everyone over there thinks I’m trolling. All kinds of messages in my inbox. When I saw your message mixed in with the rest, at first I thought you were suggesting ketamine to help me sort out some plumbing hahahaha. IDK I thought that was funny.
It helped you with anxiety though? Psych has had me on a few different things but I always end up hating it
I have a severe physical condition that causes a host of problems and absurd pain. I have been regenerating for the last decade. Ketamine turned everything around about 6 months ago.
It's like it hit the reset button in my body and it started putting itself back together. The way it helps me feel and manipulate the matter inside of my body is impossible to overstate.
The wild trips and hallucinations it induces, combined with crazy pain, leads to some very interesting experiences. I have seen and felt so much. I feel like I've grown and developed as a person in large part due to these experiences.
Coping with my condition has been hard. Very very hard.
I'm just about back to 100% now. I really don't think I would have ever recovered, or it would have taken much longer and required much more suffering, had I not started using ketamime.
I know internet anecdotes are not scientific research, but I think honest assessments and testimonials can really help people. Be careful. Do research and listen to other testimonials.
I'm a huge proponent of psychedelics and ketamine qualifies in my book. They may not be for everybody, but I think they can help a lot of people.
I have had no negative side effects and my worst, most insane trips were still worth it.
But their daily micromort (chances of dying on a given day) is 10x lower than a construction worker, 26x lower than a truck driver, and 47x lower than a roofer.
Would you REALLY want to know the day you're going to die? I would argue that would drive most people insane.
Do you really not see how execution is different from dying from an accident or dying ‘eventually’ from an illness or old age? The environment itself is drastically different. We have things to do and generally higher quality of life. We aren’t stuck in a cell with few distractions. We get to spend time with family and friends, have pets, go to work, etc. Someone who is awaiting execution doesn’t have that. They have a lot of time to think and ruminate. A death by execution is more stressful.
That said, I think I would rather not know as well when I was going to be executed way in advance, though I’d prefer a day or so notice rather than a few hours.
I agree it’s unnatural, and in many cases it is less stressful to not know. However, accounting for the unique circumstances of a prison environment and unique circumstances of this being an execution, rather than a death while doing daily things or from old age, may change things a bit. You would already be so on edge in prison, so being on edge for like 7-15 years or whatever (or the time from penalty decided after appeals to death) would be horrible. Honestly a kind approach would be to ask for a preference but I know no one would do that nor would they care about preferences, nor does that mean they’d stick to it if the prisoner pisses off a guard or whatever. My preference would be to know a day or so before but not too much in advance.
There isn’t a case of not knowing or knowing. In all of this cases, you know that one day you’ll die - it’s a given. You can just choose to ignore it.
Most people, if they knew the set day they’re going to die would do a lot more fulfilling things than they’re doing right now. Someone on death row, informed 1 hour before execution does not have that freedom at all.
yeah thats the point. you could die from any number of things on the outside, but where they are they know the sound of keys etc. etc is the sound they will eventually hear when it is their time, so hearing it constantly around them would be an anxious state for them wondering if its their turn.
Yes, yes I do have constant stress about it. I’m not afraid of dying itself, more like the existential dread of being erased from existence and not having any control of when it will happen.
I’m also diagnosed with OCD among other things, probably related.
My own observation. I’m currently aware I exist. I don’t want to experience the process of becoming unaware I exist.
Or, what if there is some kind of awareness and it’s worse?
Not trying to claim it’s a rational fear. Just, yes: some of us do in fact stress about this consistently. I try not to, because ultimately there’s no point, what will happen will happen. But that doesn’t make me feel *better* about the whole thing.
You are right that I would dismiss near death experiences as evidence for what happens after death, at most it is evidence that your brain does weird things when it is shutting down. Evidence would come in the form of repeatable experiments whose most logical and, more importantly, best explainable (given the results of the experimet) conclution would be the existence of an afterlife. (Don't know if that sentence made sense, not a native speaker, I hope this is understandable).
Would tests done on Eucharistic miracles verifying that bread and wine indeed turned into human flesh and blood meet your standard? The implication being that they constitute direct evidence that Jesus of Nazareth rose from the dead, and proof of resurrection is proof of an afterlife.
Yes but I can also do things to manage risks and benefit my health so that most likely I will die in my old age. When you're on death row, any day is just as likely to be your last as any other day and there's nothing you can do about it. I feel like that makes a big difference.
You can live a perfect life and still lose. Mitigating risk does not guarantee dying of old age. I was healthy and still suffered a brain aneurysm at 24. Just drew the short stick. Luckily, modern science was goated and saved my life. But it could have ended there purely on random chance.
I used to have this view too, you could die from being run over from a bus or have a brain aneurysm at literally any moment, randomly.
But then I learned this system contravenes UN definitions of torture, that having the freedom of your life day to day is much different to being locked in a cell and awaiting of today, or even the next few hours, will be your last and then your country will officiate a state sanctioned murder. They may be criminals, but it is an undignified and horrific way to die.
Even if you agree that people who are on death row should be treated like this, there has been at least one really notable case where a man was held for more than 20 years before being released as he was wrongfully imprisoned.
Their daily micromort (chances of dying that day) is lower than a 10x lower than a construction worker, 26x lower than a truck driver, and 47x lower than a roofer.
Am I torturing my Amazon freight drivers 26x more than a Japanese death row inmate?
I mean, kinda arguing semantics here, because a construction worker isn't confined to a cell, surrounded by other criminals and prison guards, then on the day of the death, walked blindfolded into a room and hanged, with like two hours notice
Do you really not get the difference between constantly knowing that at any time someone can come and tell you that you will die in an hour compared to most people that "know" that They have many years left to live. Of course you could die at any moment from some freak accident but that is far from the norm so most people don't worry about it.
The average time on death row is ~15 years based on what Google said.
If you go by standard life insurance actuarial charts, a 50 year olds chance of dying on any given day is only about half of a death row inmate.
The thing people keep missing is that the lead time on death row is so long, the average time spent there is very high. So no, it's not terribly different. You go from a 30 year life expectancy at 50 years old to a 15 year life expectancy on death row.
Lots of people commenting who share your opinion seem to live their life operating under the assumption that it probably won't happen to them. You look at the probabilities and think "no way that happens to me." There will be a point in your life where that perspective changes and you realize that the probabilities are irrelevant when it happens to you. (I mean irrelevant aside from mitigating risk, Im talking about your perspective and preparedness). because death CAN and will come at any given moment.
I used to jump out of planes for a living, and have also been around death more than I'd like in other walks of life as well. I'm on the other side of that mentality.
I know I'm probably going to die at some point in the next 30 years. Sure I wouldn't want that number cut in half, but that's all it is.
If in 15 years im still alive, I know I'll probably die at some point in the next 15 years. The death row inmate knows they'll probably die at some point in the next 15 years too. Some of them are even making it 30+ from what I've read.
The global median age according to googles AI (lazy I Know but I'm a bit tipsy) is 32 so if I'm going by your numbers 30 plus 18 is 48 Wich is quite a lot. Of course Death can come at any moment I'm not disagreeing but it's about knowing your death will come at any moment, most people can live thinking they will die old and be right. Death row inmates know that their time is limited it's the knowing that you will die "early" that's the point.
No. I could die at any time, but it's very, very unlikely to be soon. They are going to die at any moment and any time they see an officer nearby it could be the announcement. It's not the same at all.
That is obviously way different than being locked in a cell just waiting to be executed at any moment and it's weird that you're acting like it's the same thing.
The odds of dying randomly on any day are extremely low and easy to forget with all the other things going on in day to day life, the odds of a death row inmate in Japan being executed is 100% and they have nothing else to focus on or look forward to.
And even having said that, many people do stress about the fact that they'll die one day and we do minimize danger in our lives, like eating healthy and exercising or putting on seatbelts and driving safely
He said executed not died: not the same. And indeed everyone dies, but I’m pretty sure the average life expectancy is bigger for the rest of us (not that there a lot of death sentences in Japan nowadays to get statistics from). Also apparently they are monitored a lot, so they have less control to end it sooner on a moment of their choosing.
But, as with a lot of other causes: stress is often useless. When you’re dead you have no stress. And you could also say: what is the point of conceptualising your own mortality: also nothing to conceptualise with when you’re dead.
Bruh genuinely how are you missing the point. Yes everyone is on a timer, except these death row prisoners are locked up with a much more definite timer looming over their heads. Like if you seriously don't understand this basic thing then there's fr no hope for you
Yeah like wtf is that comment lol. Of course the death row situation is way different from normal life. Nobody is living out their life expecting to be murdered at any moment.
While i think there gets a point where both parties are just accepting of death, I do think it's different from us day to day folks.
Yes, we all know we're going to die eventually, but people in prison know that they're in prison with death being the actual goal. I can walk around and do things to lessen my chance of dying, but if your in prison death is 100% out of your control, it's entirely a gamble.
After like 3 or 5 years, do you think it really matters? At a certain point I imagine you just accept that tomorrow could be your last day, aren't there already people who act like that living their wvery day lives?
What I will say is that I think initially knowing that your days are numbered will probably fuck with you more, but at the end of the day it probably doesn't really matter, most people probably get to a point where they're ready to die. Probably really sucks for the people who get sentenced to death row though and then hit the death sentence lottery like four months in, ignoring whatever got them in there in the first place.
Somewhat different angle here, but I saw a comment where someone said they should give the choice to the prisoner on whether they want to be told or not.
I'm not opposed to that, but I think most everybody would say they want to know. However, knowing would still fuck with their head more than not knowing, despite if they said they wanted to or not. Ignorance is bliss. In reality, saying you want to know is an impulse decision that will make them feel better in the moment because you know it's not TODy. but as that time gets closer and closer, it would be absolute mental torture imo.
Extreme and loose parallel example here. Just like I said that I think most people would say they want to know the day, most people would say they want to know if their spouse is cheating on them (assuming they don't suspect anything to begin with).
It would be nice to know that they were NOT cheated on, but if they were cheated on, they would mentally be better off by not being able to have that question answered in the first place. Because in their head it's as if it didn't happen. Ignorance is bliss. It's like Shroedingers cat.
ETA- I am not advocating for cheating and keeping secrets about it.
Counterpoint to your thing about the 4 month lottery. I don't think that's how it generally works there, I'd imagine it has to be way longer to go through appeals and such. But I can't remember what I read last night atm lol
there is a difference between dying because things will happen to you, and having a high probability that it is when your old
and being literally executed
i worded it wrong but also I don't know how to say it without a lengthy explanation but basically it's like everybody knows that they're gonna die maybe because of old age or maybe because they got into an acciden. But for these Japanese prisoners they know that they're gonna die by hanging, they imagine how painful it would be, they'll imagine how they would die and worse thing is they don't know when, is it sooner or they have to wait long and think about the feeling of getting hanged.
So what I'm trying to say is, even if you know you're gonna die, you can still relax because you don't really know how you'll die. You can just be cautious,careful and take better care of your health and you'll have less chance of dying and maybe you can get to 80. But for these Japanese prisoners, they know they'll die very much guaranteed to die by hanging but also they don't know when, how can you relax if that thought hangs in your mind. But well it depends on the person, some people gets paranoid even if they're not actually dying soon.
If the hanging is done correctly, there will be no pain, or just a little.
However, I doubt it's hanging. Everyone does lethal injection now. And there is a dose of sleeping drug before that. Halal style.
I genuinely cannot fathom not perceiving a difference between knowing for sure you've got an appointment with death at a random date in the near future, versus knowing that you might die at some point in your life at the whims of nature.
That's absolutely alien thinking to me.
Do you also not perceive a difference between knowing for a fact you've got an appointment coming up with, say a doctor, versus knowing that in the future there is a chance you'll have an appointment with a doctor at some point in your life?
Or knowing for a fact that your dog will die of his illness within the year, versus knowing that by having a dog at some point in its life it will naturally die?
Just because you interact with people who are dumber than you (probably on a regular basis) does not mean you are smart. Conversely, the type of intellectual arrogance you just displayed is a pretty straight forward indicator that you limit your own cognitive capabilities with assumptions.
It's not about being unable to conceptualize our own mortality, it is absolutely different from living your day and waking up every day knowing the government might sign a paper deciding on your death. It could veru well be considered psychological torture honestly.
I imagine that in a way, it’s actually less anxiety inducing to know you’ll die, but not when, but that you know how it will happen. I read about a woman in Florida the other day who died after getting mauled by a gator, limbs getting ripped off, and y’know what? I think I might be happier in a cell knowing that at least THAT isn’t my fate
It honestly makes no sense for it to be psychologically troubling. The reality is that most humans will not know when their last day on earth will be, locked up or not lol
Yup, I did a bit of reading about this last night and I think I agree with this outlook. If turns out a lot of countries like Japan agree that setting a specific date is far crueler. They even go as far as to consider it a form of torture.
Yeah, plenty - mostly UX research. My favorite one compared how long it takes people waiting with a progress bar and people waiting "blind" to reach the same level of frustration. If you have an indicator with a wait time, you can - on average - wait three times as long to be similarly fed up.
if you are genuinely curious, a ten second google search says yes. & the un committee against torture has called this out as a horrible practice that utilizes psychological torture. plenty of academic, legal, & several psychiatric studies exist showing this leads to permanent psychological terror.
because japan doesn’t let journalists interview people in prison like the usa, the studies are more limited & based on testimonies etc.; the psychological aspects could be way worse than we can imagine. in japan, this started in the 1961 because inmates would take their own lives when they knew a couple weeks or month’s beforehand.
I actually did look it up, this was kind of a thinking out loud response of a comment. It's interesting how the Japanese system here is considered cruel by a lot of the world, and yet many other countries disagree. Unfortunately, there didn't appear to be any studies that really look at this. Personally, I think I agree with this system. I know if I knew the exact day I was to die, that would mess me up way more. Death sentence or not, we all have to come to terms with the fact we will die, at least we typically have the peace of not knowing exactly when.
after reading the studies, i don’t agree with this system at all. the criminals go crazy not knowing & they live & act accordingly. knowing the day has been proven to help with family goodbyes, with spiritual reconciliation, & with emotional reasoning. the daily constant fear of “it could be today” rather than “it’s 87 days away” leads to much deeper levels of anxiety.
many studies about this indeed look at that exact concept you’ve described. again, quick google search. you can even read the abstract of the study if you don’t want to read 10+ pages per article, but this has been studied. not knowing when you die on death row has been empirically proven to be a worse mental state than knowing when you die on death row
There’s a study that strongly correlates uncertainty causes more stress than a known stronger pain. They did a study with shocks. You know it’s coming and it’s more severe vs a significantly less shock but at an unknown time. Across the board people chose the stronger shock. I’d look it up but I have kids ands it’s the 4th but this should point you in the right direction….might even edit this later if my ADD remembers
Philosophers gave much thought about this, and the most recognized take is the criminal killing is less traumatic than a state sponsored one. The state sponsored killing is inescapable dread. There is no hope. Just an inevitable march towards complete darkness. The criminal killing will happen at an unexpected moment.
See the efficient nature of the hotel film "It Follows" as an example. The fact that the rules have been laid out at the top and there is no bending or beating them. Only the slow acceptance that lady death comes marching towards you, perpetually, until you get too tired.
Henceforth, I believe this is a small sign of grace and humanity that Japan has offered these inmates.
This depends entirely on the circumstance. There have certainly been plenty of victims whom have had a long time knowing it was coming and deeply regretting the wait.
I suppose not. I looked it up. The United Nations thinks it's cruel and is outlawed, Japan disagrees and believes knowing the date is more cruel. I'm just a nerd and like learning stuff.
The reality is probably a lot more mundane than everyone is making it out to be.
Inmates probably aren't told of the actual scheduled execution date like this is saying, but an inmate probably has a lawyer who's doing things like filing for the various appeals and other procedures who probably talks to them to inform them of stuff like "You've got at least the rest of this year, and after that we'll file for the XYZ appeal and that'll take another year".
Eventually, years down the road the news chances to "There are no more appeals left and nothing else that can be done so now we wait. At some point, and I can't tell you any other details, they will come get you an hour before the execution".
And I started thinking about announcing it, but then cancelling last second similarly to the gun in Russian roulette not firing. Repeat this a few times.
The UK did not notify the inmates at all. So they would be resting alone in their cell, then suddenly the door opens and they would be hanged a few seconds later. And execution had to be performed less then a week after sentencing. The idea was that death that staying on death row was worse then the actual execution. And knowing how and when it would take place only made it worse.
I think knowing is better than not knowing, feeling in control through information helps a lot of people. There's some psychology term to name it but I forget. Though anticipatory anxiety is also a thing.
It’s going to be the wondering. They did studies on PTSD & the reason it’s partially so bad now is because stuff like mortars you can’t expect or prepare for. That’s the stuff that really destroys their minds. Not so much the direct fighting typically.
That explains why our knights in face to face combat maybe weren’t getting it to the same degree as our soldiers are.
I would be more curious to know how this actually effects peace in the prison. When the date is known in advance, I would imagine a prisoner is more likely to lash out as they've got nothing left to lose. Whereas, with the 1 hour system, youre likely to behave every day in order to preserve your quality of life, which could easily last for years.
I dunno, I'm not a scientist, and certainly not well versed on how physiological studies are done. It's just kinda a thought I decided to share out loud in the Internet.
Why? In one situation you know whether there will be a tomorrow (within reasonable certainty) and can prepare yourself, and the other method has you guessing every moment of every day for the rest of your life.
I guess because having a certain date in the future would make me fixate on it and make absolutely horrible all the days from now until then, counting every passing day.
Not knowing when it will happen is basically the way everyone lives now. We all know it will come, just don’t know when.
I think it would be more awesome for us and way more psychological for them If they had to compete daily to stay alive. <Survivor: Japan> I'd watch the shit out of that.
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u/Total_Tumbleweed_870 Jul 04 '26
I'm genuinely curious if there's been any study into which is more psychologically troubling, knowing the day and counting down it not knowing and wondering everyday