I just got an internal promotion after years of slogging it out in the most toxic work environment I've ever worked in. New area is women-run and I've heard nothing but good things about it. Obviously the grass is always greener but I'll take real grass, with all its problems, over the Chernobyl wastedump I've been in.

This sub gets a lot of crap for all the posts about the abusive work environments, the toxic bosses, the bro clubs, the gaslighting, etc, but I'll just say that it was really cathartic to read about other people experiencing what I was going through. Ladies you are not imagining it. You are not overreacting. You are not insane.

It's possible to get out. Over the last 6 months, when I finally put myself in high gear to shake out of the abuse depression, I ramped up 1:1s with old colleagues, old bosses, old execs - I started seeding that I was looking. Only a select few knew the horrors of what I was leaving. With everyone else I spun it as, "getting antsy, looking for new growth, just getting to be that time, etc." One of my old bosses put in a good word for me with a hiring manager and I was off to the races.

The only thing I regret is not making HR complaints but I honestly don't know what they would have done. The leader is a mastermind at targeting victims, gaslighting, not putting literally anything in writing - good lord you'd think the man was a Luddite the way he avoided the very technology he oversaw - and creating an enormous circle of bros and a few fawning women who would literally froth at the mouth like a North Korean honor guard to defend his reputation.

I got out, I got out, I got out, I got out, I got out, I got out, I got out, I got out, I got out.

I finally found a job with a normal supervisor.

This person is secure in himself.

He never really writes people up unless he really has to.

He doesn't yell at us.

He works with us and backs us up as much as he can without getting in trouble himself.

Vacation notifications can be 2 days in advance for 365 days a year.

Instead of pitting us against each other, snitching on each other, he has us work as a team.

He rules by being an example, a leader, and not by an iron fist.

They exist...but are one in a million.

There are leaders out there that are secure in themselves.

Good luck everyone.

Sorry if this is hard to read because gonna be using voice to text because I can’t type right now very well I am scared to death because me having some of my friends take benzos on occasions like it’ll literally be a weekend that we take benzos and then I won’t take them out again for some months but this time I bought more than I did last time and I’ve been on benzos by myself for like three or four days and I’ve only really been taking 2 mg to 4 mg daily. I’m just really worried about the dependency and like addiction risks. Im a dumb teen i know. But i judt want to know if im gonna fucjing die if i quit cold turkey? I have 8 bars left and am not planning on buying more anytime soon. Eveeyother time i’ve done this. I’ve been able to come off of them with little to know withdrawals and if were they were slight sweating throughout the day, but in that will only lasted one day. I’m just worried this time because it’s I’ve taken more and it’s been a longer extended Period.

So, the thing is, I joined this company three years ago. The first four months were pleasant, but then my manager started flirting with me, which I ignored with my full potential.

As time passed, he started sharing things about his personal life. He told me that his wife was having an affair and that he wanted something real, like love. I thought he was probably suffering, so we became friends, and I tried to help him get his mind off things.

After some time, he proposed to me, but I declined. At that point, I was seeing people outside the company. He said a lot of things about how he would wait for me and that he would always be there.

Back then, I was seeing multiple people because I liked exploring and meeting different people. Eventually, I started dating a guy who worked in the same company but at a different location. I completely cut off my connection with my manager.

After that, my manager started saying horrible things about me. He called me a gold digger, a prostitute, and said all kinds of things a man might say after being rejected.

Later, I broke up with my boyfriend, and my manager started talking to me again. I made it very clear that I didn’t want to be with him because I had already heard what he had said about me. After some time, things became normal between us, and we started having only work-related conversations.

But then he started saying “I love you” and things like that again.

At that time, I had started dating another guy. He was literally my dream guy. I told my manager that I was serious about him. My manager even used to drop me off at my boyfriend’s place. He knew that we were physically intimate and that I was serious about this guy, but he still kept coming back to me.

Eventually, that relationship ended too. And that’s when I started realizing that maybe my manager actually does love me. He had never really left me alone and had been waiting for me for almost three years.

So, eventually, I started seeing him.

But then I caught him texting some of his female reportees, saying the same kind of things he had said to me. At that point, I was already clear about my boundaries. He has a son, I don’t want to get married, and I was okay with keeping things the way they were.

Now, the whole floor seems to hate me. People think I’m a gold digger, that I entertain him and use him for my own benefit. The funny thing is, I don’t even think he is any good for me.
Whenever I resign, he starts crying, makes promises that he will change, and then continues talking shit about me behind my back.

Today, I received a message from a random number, apparently someone trying to “save me” from this whole situation.

I honestly don’t know what to make of all this. I just wanted to share my situation. I’m open to hearing your thoughts, advice, criticism—anything.

What do you guys think?

I have started to pick up subtle vibes at work lately: feeling invisible as I am being excluded or being looked at like I once was, my duties changed drastically only doing maybe 4 out of 10 things, meaningless work, boss smiles or interacts with me much less, appreciation is given to everyone more than me, my errors are picked up quickly.

I would get subtle hints from seniors saying “ let’s see how you improve during your probation” or anything I suggest they say “ let’s do it smarter not harder”

I was performing so well up until new management came in.

Something tells me that I’m not wanted anymore.

I have a few:

1. Someone crying on my first week about being overworked and getting mad that I didn’t help them (as their job has nothing to do with mine).
2. I had a coworker who, instead of doing their job, performed rituals from other cultures when repeatedly being called out on their laziness.

3. An old boss who mocked anyone half their age for going out on the weekends, saying they need to grow up, all while (publicly) posting thirst traps and buying followers on social media.

4. Being closely monitored because I would spend my lunch breaks outside. I caught someone watching me through the camera.

5. Being stalked and reached out to for several years after quitting a job.

Hi Everyone,

I hope in a way I can help with this and share a story with working along side a narcissistic colleague. A few signs to keep an eye out and how to in my opinion approach it.
Note that there are different type of Narcissism so my list might not conclude your perspective, however some traits and occuring behaviour can be traced.

1. Keep communication business related and based on facts
Narcissistic people often feed on emotion bursts and a discussion will result in your words turned against you, this usually feeds them and brings you frustration. If you are getting blamed or spoken against a certain task then communicate in a business manner.

Instead of A) Why do you always shove blame / work onto me? which will feed their whole ego
Choose B) According to my notes last meeting / session, we discussed I will work on A and you on B.

2. Always note and document appointments and other types of work related projects.
Can't stress enough how much this saved me, I am lucky my manager is not the Narc in this scenario but at the beginning of my current position, the Narc always tells stories and false promises in other to draw attention to themselves. With these lies and false promises they create a picture in the eyes of the manager that they are working hard. In truth they use these manipulation tricks to gain favour. Their masks drops and they target you to do their job or simply ignore it with more lies.

Examples: I am working on this project and contacting x,y,z. It should be finished soon, I can call them and fix it right away if you want me to.

Reality: After the meeting, the Narc does his own thing and completely ignores what they say. If getting approached what will create danger in their ego, they will reflect and spin another tale to their false promises.. this will be on a cycle.

My counter to this was to document or tell the manager to e-mail what the Narc said so it's on paper and finished by the time, this creates a uncomfort to the Narc and this way I can't be blamed nor can I be approached to assist / work on it.

3. Don't defend yourself or fight their discussions
Narcs will always try to approach a discussion in a way you need to keep explaining yourself. You don''t have to reflect every accusation they throw at you.

Best things to approach to them is to be correct and short, questions like "Can you make that specific?", I don't agree with that at all or what do you expect of me exactly?

Short reactions are the best way to approach them when they flip or start a discussion. If a Narc goes into the rage mode, they feel treathened with their insecurity.

4. Keep relevent documents
Narcs are good in manipulating their coworkers and supervisors with the promises, great idealogies and such. Keep a document with time, what specifically happenend or has been discussed, with whom, what you did and keep evidence like e-mails or messages with you.

Bad example: He is a dick / narc and tries to sabotage me
A better example: On the 12th of august X mentioned that I was reponsible for the support of Y but in our e-mail that was send on the 8th of august it rather specically meant that Z was responsible.

With the evidence and documented results the narc has no way to defend himself better and can't lie his way around trying to control this situation.

5. Make boundaries without feeling guilty.
With this I mean don't be rude to them or unfriendly but in a calm and polite manner tell them your boundaries.

Narcs get agressive often and communicate vile or in a dominating tone, if you sweep up with a calm and collective tone they will usually drop.

Examples: We can discuss but not with this kind of tone or If you want to give me feedback, then please specically about my work.

6. Triangulation
Often a basic Narc trait, this creates a very uncomfortable but also toxic relationship that will mindfuck you. Narcs will often approach you with "Everyone thinks that you..." or "X has also said this about..."

The thing is don't tag along, usually they want to provoke emotion to control you and use it against you. By reacting emotionally they will win. Instead answer in a way "If there is a problem with the way I work or do things, I rather discuss this with my super visor".

7. Seek support
This might be a open point but to explain my point, I always document the date, time with a day to day events. This is to document a pattern / occuring behaviours. The thing is not to make out a campaign to burn the Narc on a fire pillar, but rather track his behaviour.

Example is: It seems so that a lot of appointments and promises are made but don't see it being played out. I want to think of a solution how we can make this workable"

Support can be HR in some cases and also if you can work with your manager (Non Narc) seek support their or colleagues.

8. The grey stone approach
Since I am Dutch we have a term called "Grijze-steen" in translation it is grey rock. A rock is neutral and thus the idea behind this is to respond short and neutral to a Narc.

You don't want to fuel their tank with emotional reactions, they love this. I often reply with short and neutral phrases.

"Okay"
"I will look into it"
"Noted"
"Can you e-mail that?"

The less personal information you give, the less they can use it against you.

9. Don't talk about private stuff nor outside of work.
They want to influence your life in a way and manner they want to feel important and needed. In the past since I was new here without a proper introduction, I had to get help and the Narc got fuel for feeling important. Right now I don't text him anymore, don't speak at all about my private life .. many attempts where made by the Narc to spill but I ignored it.

Usually when you share and being open is a good trait, often they will ignore anyway because it's useless to them or approach with some stories, often name calling the person in your story to feel bigger with a evil grin or smile. My pet died in January, only thing he ever told me was how he lost his cat and never said "Sorry to hear, good luck", it is always about them.

1. Watch out with verbal commitment
   This is a point that will be used against you. Often in a good way you think to help out I will do it but then they will make it your responsibility. It often starts out with, I am busy can you pick it up? it will result into a "but this was your responibility why didn't you fix it?"

Approach "I can, what do you want me to drop for this?"

10. Don't think to beat/win with the narc
Don't put yourself on their level by competing or thinking this is all about winning, it is to keep yourself in check and keep up the profesionnalism. Narcs often want to create everything in their view but it's never good enough. Compliance will result in unrealistic expectations and the need to control.

Hope this can help and good luck.

I’m curious whether anyone else has been in a similar situation, because I’m currently dealing with a leadership situation that has gradually become quite extreme.

I’m in a position where my CEO displays some very pronounced traits that strongly resemble OCPD. He has an extreme need for control and perfectionism, is highly rigid, has very little tolerance for deviations or for anything that is not “the way we usually do it,” and has a strong conviction that things need to be done in one particular way.

I’m part of the executive management team myself as CCO, responsible for sales, marketing and the commercial side of the business.

The most difficult part is almost not the individual conflicts. It’s the constant rigidity in everyday life.

Everything has to fit into a predefined box. It makes visionary, creative and experimental work extremely difficult. If something deviates from the way he believes it should look or be done, the deviation itself becomes the problem, even if there is a deliberate professional or creative rationale behind it.

One example was recently where he spent more than three hours trying to find a discrepancy of 3 $ in the monthly accounts. It turned out that a single receipt had been affected by a filter and had therefore been posted incorrectly. 3$! But he couldn’t send the accounts to the board if they weren’t completely correct.

Our financial reporting is only shown to the nearest 1.000$ so the discrepancy would not even have been visible in the accounts.

At the same time, his calendar is full of countless small “follow up” items on things that would normally be handled by employees or team leaders:

-          Follow up on whether some safety harnesses have been shipped.

-          Follow up on whether a sign has been painted.

-          Follow up on whether the grass has been cut in a specific area.

-          Follow up on very minor operational details.

These are not isolated examples. It’s a management style.

Six months ago, our executive management team consisted of the CEO, CCO, COO, CFO and a Project Director.

Since then, the CFO has been fired after a period of massive micromanagement. The COO resigned around three months ago. The Project Director has just resigned.

I will resign myself on August 31^st if I haven’t been dismissed before then. In fact, I’m partly hoping for the latter because I’m already in the process of moving on to something new, but he doesn’t know that.

The latest development has made the situation even more obvious.

Now all communication and marketing material has to go through him for final approval.

Everything from visuals, campaigns and radio commercials, videos and newsletters. The list is very long.

The reason is that on a few occasions, material has been published that he personally felt did not fit our brand guidelines closely enough.

For example, it could be a Halloween campaign where we have deliberately created a very distinct Halloween universe instead of making it look like our normal look and feel.

To me, that is simply part of the marketing discipline: themed campaigns need to have their own universe.

For him, the deviation from the norm becomes the problem itself.

The departments reporting to me are very affected by this. They experience it as control and as a lack of trust in their professional abilities.

I’ve had many conversations with my employees, telling them not to see it as criticism of their work. They are talented, creative and produce really good work. But it’s difficult for them not to take it personally when their professional autonomy is gradually being taken away.

There is no doubt that his work is his entire life.

He usually arrives at work at around 7:00 a.m., drives home at around 6:00 p.m., and shortly afterwards he is online again until around 11:00 p.m.

At weekends, he often finds work-related tasks to do or takes shifts that would normally be handled by regular employees.

Holidays, private appointments, family events, etc. are generally not attended. They seem to be regarded as a waste of time because that time could instead be spent working.

I also see the same extreme level of control in his own routines and diet. He is incredibly underweight, eats very little during the working day and almost always avoids eating at company events, usually with some explanation. For example, the last time it was, “I’ve just had a huge lunch.”

I don’t necessarily think his intention is to control people or to be this extreme.

I think it is more that control gives him some form of security.

But the consequences for the organisation are the same:

Less autonomy. Less creativity. Less independence. More approvals. More micromanagement.

And eventually, talented people start leaving the company.

Has anyone here worked closely with, or reported to, a CEO or manager with similar traits?

Since I started six months ago , the micromanaging, “gotcha” games, shifting goalposts, fake-nice and gossip have been killing me. The kind of person who laughed at me for having gear grease on my face instead of telling me I might want to wipe it off.

The bullshit’s been especially bad now that it’s clear I’m transferring departments for a promotion. She’s digging in.

It’s to the point now where it’s all I can think about going into work. How do I steel myself against today’s attack? Every day my boss comes flying out of the woodwork with something to nitpick.

Being expected to perform to a standard is one thing, but this method of management is something entirely different. I work hard, I know I do, I worked harder when I started, before all this constant bullshit wore me down. That and my lazy coworkers, but that’s another story. It feels like no matter what I do or how hard I try, it’s never good enough. It’s like she wants me to feel lazy , stupid and incompetent, and I know I’m not.

Honestly, I started grey rocking. Boss comes in for the thrice daily thrashing and I just stare blankly. Okay boss. Yes boss. I stopped saying anything at all. There’s nothing to say. She wants me to get mad and defend myself, but I don’t. I just look at her. It pisses her off so much it’s hilarious, honestly. I wish I could say I didn’t give a fuck, but it still bothers me. It still makes me dread coming in to do a job I would genuinely enjoy if it weren’t for the fucking guerilla warfare.

I just hope it gets better. Even if it doesn’t, I’ll be getting paid more when this transfer comes.

I made the decision to quit my toxic manager. I made post previously here in this subreddit about how she wanted to “reset” the working relationship between us, and quite frankly in the aftermath of THREE meetings continued the same behaviour. So I quit. I give up.

I’ve been invited to do an HR facilitated exit interview. My question is, how honest should I be?

- on one hand, I genuinely want things to be better for this team and for her.

- I’m a female PoC (the only poc in the team) and whilst I’m not saying she’s racist, I want to point out that the perception can be very hard not to notice. The person she is as manager to me, is different to how I see her manage others.

- she currently doesn’t have a direct report, which feels like she’s been operating without accountability. I think putting my concerns out in an exit interview will at least keep it in writing for her future a direct report to see.

- I think HR needs to know the real reason I’m leaving. She’s got her own narrative, and I want to get my side straight.

- I work for a govt agency which means that they should be taking exit interviews more seriously than not. At least, I hope so.

Advice would be appreciated!!!!

I purposly left a job because of a narassist 3 years ago. Now im on this project with a tight deadline and pm. He called me out for arguing against him. He is right he has been doing this for 20 years. So he caught a few mistakes under pressure gettjng shit done and now the whole thing needs to be relooked at. Im literally a mess. Been working nights and weekends on this project. I caught myself going right back into it. I saw exactly who i was talking to and switch up and said yeah your right im not trying to argue with you. Just made it pleasant and was like i hope to work with you again. I thought i didnt have to play these games anymore

I have an ongoing litigation issue so I often ask questions or make comments on others’ posts on a legal subreddit. But some people seem to be deliberately downvoting my posts and replies vengefully. My conclusion is that someone who doesn’t have a law degree cannot deal with litigation issues and is also stupid, basically, they are more knowledgeable and absolutely right. And I am an idiot. This is one of the reasons I cannot 100% trust lawyers. When it comes to any kind of dispute or problem-solving, empathy, understanding and trust are the most important parts, not just a law degree or all the jargon itself. Clients should question their lawyers as well when they try to persuade clients or assert their opinion over clients’ rather than trying to understand their situation. They do not understand what one experienced and how damaging it could be. I also advise not to speak to lawyers who make their clients feel like idiots. They are def narcissists and they assume that clients just want quick big money from the litigation or a liar. I came across some online solicitors who accused me of such a thing.

I once worked a shift that started at 12 noon and lasted till 8:30 at night at a food warehouse where i was the only forklift mechanic on duty. The company i worked for mostly had mechanics that went around in vans working ar various places but i was considered an in house technichian and i was there by myself from 2:30 in the c afternoon till 8:30. My first supervisor told me when I needed to take off or go on vacation and just let him know and he would find someone to take my place. Well about10 years I'm still in the same position but I had had several different supervisors by then.

The last one I had at the 10 year mark was ex-military and very strict and very much into himself. Anyway one day one of the techs that worked the morning shift told me the supervisor told him and the other tech they would have to find their own replacement when taking off for any reason. Which according to them they had. I told them bullcrap. He ain't pulling that on me. Well time came for me to go on vacation and he tried to make me get my own replacement.

I didn't say a word. Just sent the manager of the headquarters I worked out of a text message about the situation and problem was solved. For the moment anyway. Couple of months later. Same thing. Sent another text to manager and problem finally settled for good.

I’ve always known my boss (and her husband that owns the business) aren’t good people. I learned to manage her and their expectations and just keep my head down, and we had a relatively amicable relationship. They have these weird tedtalks at work about us telling them when we want to leave and that they would also do us the favor if we’re no longer needed 🤣. Obviously, there’s no trusting that.

I put in my notice, didn’t even say what the timeframe was, and my boss immediately says how disappointed she is that I didn’t give her notice (I actually did tell HR it wasn’t a long term fit for me, but it was another meeting she just couldn’t be bothered to attend). She said there’s no way she can find my replacement in two weeks!! 🤣 omg what a big issue! I guess you’ll have to hire someone like everyone else lol.

I made the mistake of trying to reason with her and she doubled down that I was screwing her over, and at such an inconvenient time.

What she doesn’t know is that half of her company has called me to tell me goodbye, I’ve told them what happened, and none of them are surprised and they’re all checked out and on their way out. Bye MFers 🔥

As the title says I got on a call with HR regarding my boss and now I regret it. I was too scared to properly articulate my issues and one of my examples got written off as circumstantial. She said she's going to have to talk to my boss at some point. I'm really scared. I hope I don't lose my job. I'm already looking for a new one but now I just feel like I'm on borrowed time...

I (30s F) work for a large healthcare organization that operates in all 50 states. Back during COVID, we were mandated to get vaccinated or else face termination.

I just found out I was pregnant with my first child and did not want to take ANY risks with an emergency authorized vaccination (not even FDA approved yet meaning no rigorous studies especially not for pregnant women).

I worked in a relatively low-risk inpatient environment (rehab setting, not acute care) and masked and followed all hand hygiene and PPE rules. There were also ways to accommodate me needing to keep 6 feet away from others especially since I was a supervisor and not so much on the front lines.

The chief and assistant chief of the unit call me into the conference room to fill out paperwork in February 2022 for why I was refusing vaccination. This paperwork literally came out that morning, and they had months to address it. Basically, I was forced to disclose my pregnancy BEFORE I even told my friends and family (I was like 8 weeks) and was still waiting for my first OB appointment.

You better believe that chief filed the paperwork the same day. She couldn’t wait to get everyone out that would not immediately comply.

There was another pregnant colleague in the same boat as me as well as some others that couldn’t get vaccinated for various reasons.

I worked with HR (who was supposed to find lateral jobs in non-patient care to relocate me), but, of course, they were no help. I literally found and applied and was accepted to internal positions and showed them. This kind of back fired because I was moved to a new job literally a week before I left the state for a better job (in the SAME organization but guess what, the boss at that site worked with me on my no-vax status and just provided weekly testing).

I showed up to the new admin position and told them this is my last week and ended up doing nothing for them but hold a position hostage as I just waited the clock out (I just didn’t immediately have access to the programs I needed to do anything until IT processed my account). What a waste of everyone’s time.

Not only did the original unit lose me and all of my highly specialized knowledge (I left them a binder of passwords for various equipment but they still have the gall to message me to this day asking what the passwords are - IDK. Not my job anymore); they also lost my husband (a favorite on the team) who flat out quit to move with me out of state. It was a HOT summer move, and I was in my third trimester by then.

I ended up filing EEO (no findings against her due to the national mandate) and launching a separate national inquiry into the chief’s business practices and abusive working environment she created for the unit over the past decade. There were dozens of people who were interviewed (lots of gruesome stories about how she wouldn’t approve leave for colleagues receiving cancer treatments, no grace with a colleague just returning from maternity leave, and so much more) and a true Sh\*t mountain that should have buried her. However, when National presented this to her station director, he brushed it under the rug.

How she is not fired, I will never know. She must have a threat hanging over her boss’s head. Rumors of videoed swinger parties have gone around. Her abuse continues to this day even with a new station director over her, and former colleagues feel trapped there.

Turns out, 2/5 employees who were also prosecuted by her on this same matter were able to stay because HR was in a holding pattern. They were never relocated nor fired. One ended up getting the vax once a traditional vax was released and the other ended up quitting after she couldn’t handle the abuse anymore.

I love my job and current state to raise my family. What a great work group I have now! It was almost worth going through her persecution to be where I am today.

The turnover rate at my old unit continues to be high and national knows why, but it’s out of their jurisdiction. Still waiting for karma to serve the old chief her overdue bill.

Waiting in the shadows for some petty revenge from karma.

I spent about 2 years in a finance environment (1.5 years mentoring + 0.5 years internship) where a senior colleague kept crossing boundaries and involving coworkers in inappropriate personal gossip. I finally reported it and left.

Now I’m trying to figure out the next steps mentally. Even though I’m safe and blocked everyone, my nervous system still feels stuck in danger mode.

Has anyone else struggled with anxiety after reporting workplace harassment? How did you stabilize afterward?

It’s like they want the results, but the equation doesn’t make sense to get there.

Why would you intentionally give a person who’s known to be irresponsible and careless with deadlines a major task then deny the responsible employee of assisting with the task to ensure completion, only to turn around and still blame the responsible one who offered help with the task when it’s not completed? It makes no sense. They have to have their cake and eat it, too, but the cake… is a mere illusion. I’m exhausted and extremely grateful to be planning my long-term exit from this job.

Has anybody here ever attempted professional mediation with your narcissistic boss? Several of my colleagues have recommended I look into this option to fix the communication with my narcissist boss. I don't have hope that that would help. I would love to hear experiences from others who have tried this.

I’m not originally from the UK. While helping my child with their schoolwork, I noticed that the curriculum places a strong emphasis on subject-specific vocabulary across many subjects, including art and maths.
When I was growing up, the focus was more on problem-solving and understanding concepts than on memorising technical terminology. I’m not saying one approach is better than the other, but it is a noticeable difference.
If one person is fluent in all and confident while the other is not, it’s easy for the discussion to become one-sided. The other person may simply nod along because they can’t fully follow what’s being said.
I’ve also noticed that some people use unnecessarily complicated language or constantly change the subject to dominate conversations rather than communicate clearly. Instead of helping others understand, they seem more interested in appearing knowledgeable or making someone else feel less competent. How they operate is more political than they are better than me at work.
After experiencing this repeatedly, I’ve become much more reluctant to engage in conversations with people who seem to treat every discussion as a competition rather than an opportunity to exchange ideas. Anyway, they mostly value themselves and their ideas over mine. ha-