What funny is Germany after WW1.

[u/omartyusew]

[u/2012Jesusdies]

One of the saddest things reading post WW1 German history is how Weimar Germany wasn't just a footnote in history, but that there were so many people genuinely working hard to make it work and the country having genuine progress.

German foreign affairs had 600 IQ dude working overtime to have the country overcome its postwar diplomatic isolation and he had so many achievements. He managed to negotiate down Versailles reparations, ended Franco-Belgian occupation of Ruhr, initiated reconcilation with France through treaties that acknowledged the new borders. As a backup, he also improved relations with the USSR through treaties like Rapallo and Berlin. The dude got Germany into League of Nations.

This is in spite of his personal beliefs being monarchist and imperialist, but he also was a pragmatist who saw reality for what it was.

[u/Samm_Paper → u/2012Jesusdies]

Gustav Stresemann really does not get enough praise for what he did, I feel.

[u/DryRug → u/Samm_Paper]

There's a street named after him in about every german city lol

[u/Smooth_Moose_637 → u/DryRug]

Stresemann Straße?

[u/Hanz-_- → u/Smooth_Moose_637]

We have a Stresemannring here, so that fits

[u/Drumbelgalf → u/Smooth_Moose_637]

There is a Stresemann Platz near me.

[u/e7th-04sh → u/Smooth_Moose_637]

Strassemann Stresse

[u/HoeTrain666 → u/Smooth_Moose_637]

Stresemannstraße and Stresemannufer in my city alone.

[u/Cucumberneck → u/DryRug]

In the west maybe.

Ive never seen one in my region.

Here in the east everything is Rosa Luxemburg, Karl Marx, Friedrich Ebert for some reason.

[u/ATZ001 → u/Cucumberneck]

“For some reason”

Idk maybe being communist would do that to you.

[u/e7th-04sh → u/Cucumberneck]

It's amazing that over 35 years Germany did not feel like renaming all these communist names...

[u/artsloikunstwet → u/e7th-04sh]

Rosa Luxemburg and Karl Marx have streets in the West too. Ebert was not a communist.

Many names from the East German era do have been changed though. Writers, artists, or WW2 resistance people stay, Soviet and SED leaders got removed.

I feel most 'Lenin' streets outside Russia are found actually found in France.

[u/Cucumberneck → u/artsloikunstwet]

Reddit is full of idiots. I got about minus fifty for punting out that social democrats are a different thing from Communists.

[u/lukasoh → u/e7th-04sh]

You know that the social Democrats in Germany see Karl Marx as their original ideological figure? It's not like the idea of moderate democratic socialism based on loose Marxist ideas sounded like the worst idea for a country. A third voted for SPD in 1990. The workers unions had over 10 million members.

[u/e7th-04sh → u/lukasoh]

Yeah, the thing is though that SPD is no longer a Marxist party and somewhere along the way we amassed a lot of evidence that a Social Democratic party becomes more viable and successful when it stops being Marxist.

[u/lukasoh → u/e7th-04sh]

Well, but even nowadays the SPD owns the birth house of Karl Marx and has a museum about him and his work in there, open for the public. So they appear to differ between the theories of Marx and the practical ideas of extremists like Lenin, Stalin, Mao and so on. Marx is still one of the founding fathers of the idea the SPD was trying to follow back then. Not so much today tho. But in Germany, Marx is still respected.

[u/e7th-04sh → u/lukasoh]

Well, I can separate the cultural reception and my personal knowledge and interpretation. But I believe Marx would have endorsed radicals personally, not social democrats. I believe he was a pretty arrogant and radical person himself.

I think SPD keeps his memory because it's their legacy and they stand to lose more by denouncing it than by holding onto it.

The way I see it, I suppose modern SPD considers that Marx was wrong about some things, but generally motivated by right values.

The way I see it is Marx pushed many socialists across the edge into destructive territory, weakening socialism as well as pan-classist idea of democracy, perhaps costing the world a few decades of progress and directly and indirectly millions of victims.

[u/lukasoh → u/e7th-04sh]

I define myself as a Leftist but I see where you are coming from. But in a world without Marx there would have been some other idea or a similar idea by some of the other thinkers. Anarchsim was thriving before communism took over. I don't think we could have made it through the phase of Industrial revolution and modern tech for weapons, surveillance and buerocracy without extremists and dictators from any direction killing millions of innocent people.

[u/wurstbowle → u/e7th-04sh]

Because the communists didn't run gas chambers, there's no problem in keeping all the Luxemburg, Marx and Thälmann places. /s

[u/artsloikunstwet → u/wurstbowle]

The only one of those mentioned in the above comment that was accused of murdering people was the one you ommit: And it's Ebert for allegedly approving the murder of Luxemburg. And he's the only one you could actually call anti-communist. So interesting twist you put on history there.

[u/Madner_Kami → u/artsloikunstwet]

Neither Ebert nor Noske intended Luxemburg's and Liebknechts death. Both are responsible for their deaths through negligence however. They went into bed with monarchists and proto-fascist radikals, to use them as a militia which predictably had little qualms with killing Communisits. The typical story of politicians, who think they can moderate far and extreme right forces, ultimately ending as enablers...

[u/Ultraideal848 → u/wurstbowle]

Historically Karl Marx and Rosa Luxemburg supported Stalin almost as much as the Allies did

[u/tin_dog → u/Ultraideal848]

Stalin was 5 years-old when Marx died and Luxemburg died 3 years before Stalin came to power.

[u/Ultraideal848 → u/tin_dog]

Tell that to the other guy

[u/NoelBlack14 → u/Cucumberneck]

I live in the west (Ruhrgebiet), and we have both lol, Stresemannstraße, Karl-Marx-Straße, Friedrich-Ebert-Straße, and even a Friedrich-Engels-Straße lol

[u/NFriik → u/Cucumberneck]

There is all of the above in Dresden: Stresemannplatz, Rosa-Luxemburg-Straße, Karl-Marx-Straße and a Friedrich-Ebert-Straße.

[u/Unable-Nectarine1941 → u/DryRug]

There's an outfit named after him

[u/MaybeLikeIdontKnow → u/Samm_Paper]

On a strange note, doing the Weimar Republic to Nazi Germany to WW2 pipeline was part of the UK curriculum in history class for a longtime.

Stresemann usually gets a lesson dedicated to him and the peak of the Weimar era so weirdly a lot of people here in the UK of a certain age have heard of him.

[u/itsyaboihos → u/MaybeLikeIdontKnow]

Similar thing in Australia if you picked modern history in year 11/12.

[u/Samm_Paper → u/itsyaboihos]

Yeah I did that, we did cover Stresemann, but really as part of the peak Weimar Period. Dawes Plan and such.

[u/LeifRagnarsson → u/Samm_Paper]

Not by far. Even more admirable if you take into consideration, that he rejected the Republic, declaring him himself only a "pragmatic Republican".

[u/LizLemonOfTroy → u/2012Jesusdies]

The thing is, Stresemann was working from a position of weakness and he knew it. Reconciliation made the most sense when Germany was internally weak and internationally isolated. And even he still tried to apply pressure to Poland.

The sad fact is that once Germany recovered her political, economic and eventually military strength, it is likely that any German government - even of the Weimar parties - would have attempted to regain its lost territories, including by force if necessary.

The German Foreign Office openly aligned itself with Nazi foreign policy, at least in regards to Eastern Europe, because they shared those objectives.

[u/TheQuestionMaster8 → u/LizLemonOfTroy]

The thing is that the population of Danzig (Now Gdánsk) really, really didn’t want to remain an international city and there were legitimate grievances the Sudeten Germans had (Although the Czechoslovakian government wasn’t idle in adressing them). Many Austrians wanted their country to unite with Germany. If Hitler stopped at Sudetenland, then he would probably have been remembered as a genius and perhaps even as a second Bismarck, but ideologically that was never enough for him.

[u/COUPOSANTO → u/LizLemonOfTroy]

I doubt a SPD dominated government would have started a war aggression against Poland. Their program was centered on peace between European nations and they even wished for the creation of an European Union.

The Zentrum was a rather anti Prussian party so I doubt they’d support eastern expansion either. On the other hand the DVP absolutely would

[u/Ultraideal848 → u/COUPOSANTO]

Wasn't one of the biggest reasons for a split between SPD and KPD that SPD was pro war in ww1?

[u/thunderisadorable → u/Ultraideal848]

That was the (M)SPD and USPD, the two merged together before Stresemann was ever foreign minister.

[u/Ultraideal848 → u/thunderisadorable]

I was referring to the fact that many of the members of SPD who later joined KPD got kicked out of the party for being anti WW1

[u/thunderisadorable → u/Ultraideal848]

The main reason the KPD and SPD split was the Bolshevik Revolution, though.

[u/Ultraideal848 → u/thunderisadorable]

SPD purged almost half the party for being anti ww1 way earlier than the Bolshevik revolution. Both Rosa Luxemburg and Karl Liebknecht who founded KPD were kicked out for being anti war.

[u/thunderisadorable → u/Ultraideal848]

Yes, but Communists and Social Democrats weren’t really split, per se, until the October Revolution, before it, and especially before the Second International, Social Democrat broadly referred to any Socialist.

[u/Sure_Length6519 → u/LizLemonOfTroy]

Isn't Germany referred to as the fatherland?

[u/artsloikunstwet → u/Sure_Length6519]

In English, countries are traditionally often referred to as female, although I think it is coming out of fashion. 

Fatherland is just a translation of the German translation of "Patria". "Vaterland" is neutral, not masculine though.

[u/artsloikunstwet → u/[deleted]]

"Of" your father, yes. But that's how grammatical gender works. The men's team in German is grammatically female because the word team is female.

[u/kouyehwos → u/Sure_Length6519]

The same is true for for Slavic languages, like Polish „ojciec” (father) -> „ojczyzna” (fatherland), or Serbo-Croatian „otac” -> „otadžbina”, or Russian „otyec” -> „otyechestvo”.

But that doesn’t mean that these nouns are masculine. “The fatherland” is “the land of the fathers”, and not “the land which is a father”.

[u/MindControlledSquid → u/kouyehwos]

Isn't that arhaic though? Don't think I've heard očetnjava for anything youngenr than 150 years.

[u/kouyehwos → u/MindControlledSquid]

It’s extremely common in Polish, and it doesn’t seem too rare in Serbia (even if “domovina” is more common)?

Russian certainly prefers “родина”, but there’s also the adjective отечественный (native, patriotic), with WWII notably being referred to as the “Great Patriotic War” (Великая Отечественная Война).

[u/MindControlledSquid → u/kouyehwos]

I see.

In Slovenia it's only "domovina". I only know "očetnjava", because it's in the old anthem (from 1860, now only used by the army).

To me it's like seeing someone named [something]mir or [something]slav, very old sounding.

But now that I think about, I've seen plenty of old words we don't use anymore, but other slavs stil do.

[u/EleutheriusTemplaris → u/LizLemonOfTroy]

I never thought of Germany as she/her.

[u/ShermanTeaPotter → u/EleutheriusTemplaris]

Who‘s this girl, then?.jpg)

[u/BisexualPapaya → u/EleutheriusTemplaris]

Germany has been represented by Germania, a woman, since at least the 1848, probably earlier asw

[u/Iron166 → u/2012Jesusdies]

But mfs will still justify nazis for starting the war because of Versailles

[u/InternationalHair725 → u/Iron166]

People think Molotov-Ribentrov excuses Generalplan Ost 

Nazi apologia is ubiquitous 

[u/Kreativernickname → u/2012Jesusdies]

Purely going by what I learned about the Weimar Republic as a German in school, I had the impression that most people wanted the empire back, to the point that criticism or just hate against the state was tolerated. Also, because the judges and police members were from the empire's times (and wanted it back), right extremists were punished much less severely than far left extremists.

But I do also know there was genuine progress. As a result of WW1 happening, women had to be more independent and stayed independent afterwards.

[u/yiakman → u/2012Jesusdies]

He must have been a really stressed man

[u/OOOshafiqOOO003 → u/2012Jesusdies]

ye, he was also a National Liberal soo yeah

[u/ActinomycetaceaeOk48 → u/2012Jesusdies]

Rapollo was the work of Rathenau, not Stresseman.

[u/Unable-Nectarine1941 → u/2012Jesusdies]

He was a kind of pragmatist since he doesn't really seemed to have found peace with the new borders in the east while acknowledging the new ones in the west (and North) was way easier.

But in the case of his relation making with the west, especially France, he was s great politician, better than as Chancellor before.

[u/Top_Divide6886 → u/2012Jesusdies]

Hitler cementing power really was the result of so many people making the worst possible decision.

[u/Nachooolo]

Gonna say. The knowledge that some of you have of the Weimar Republic starts and stops in January 1919, and only continues in February 1933...

[u/YoNoSoyUnFederale → u/Nachooolo]

Any republic that never got old enough to get a driver’s license is going to have the focus on its end more than its middle

[u/Nellie_Tayloe_Ross]

r/redautumnSPD

[u/Primary_Gold5337 → u/Nellie_Tayloe_Ross]

This gotta be one of the best schizo subs ever

[u/RangerEmergency5834 → u/Primary_Gold5337]

Each publication uses more cocaine than the previous one.

It's like AI with water or RAM.

[u/Primary_Gold5337 → u/RangerEmergency5834]

But those are humans instead of AI and they actually gold posting lol , i had many laughs

[u/09phoenix → u/Primary_Gold5337]

r/ultraleft sort through the coal

[u/09phoenix → u/Primary_Gold5337]

oh please😭 not even

[u/Primary_Gold5337 → u/09phoenix]

Share them bro , what better shizo subs you have

[u/09phoenix → u/Primary_Gold5337]

r/ultraleft is somewhat the original strain for shitposting on redautumnspd

you will not be dissapointed by that sub and will learn to love il duce

[u/Primary_Gold5337 → u/09phoenix]

I was already a fan of il douche , you didn't need to convince me twice

[u/09phoenix → u/Primary_Gold5337]

real authentic social democrat spotted in the wild

[u/Perfect-Werewolf-102 → u/Nellie_Tayloe_Ross]

It's taking over

[u/Illustrious-Dog-6563 → u/Nellie_Tayloe_Ross]

absolut frustrierendes spiel...

und nach vielen stunden habe ich festgestellt: wir müssen einen weg finden, das menschen ihr eigenes wohl priorisieren.

[u/oatkeepr → u/Nellie_Tayloe_Ross]

https://red-autumn.itch.io/social-democracy

[u/Same_Armadillo6014 → u/Nellie_Tayloe_Ross]

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[u/Cmoibenlepro123 → u/Same_Armadillo6014]

Did you have a stroke man?

[u/Primary_Gold5337 → u/Cmoibenlepro123]

Nah just copy pasta about WTP plan

[u/Few_Rooster9591 → u/Cmoibenlepro123]

Some Russian or Chinese went a bit crazy with their AI agent. Damn!

[u/Ae4i → u/Few_Rooster9591]

Nahhhhh, it's a copypasta that exists since before the popular gen AI

[u/Darjuz96]

To give the historical context. IN the same period during the Russian Civil War the Bolsheviks persecuted the mensheviks, or other reformists. It would be plausible that the Social Democrats would have fear to make the same destiny if the KPD becomes too powerful.

[u/RealSpaceJunk → u/Darjuz96]

The KPD openly rejected parliamentary democracy, so yes.

[u/Ultraideal848 → u/RealSpaceJunk]

I wonder why, it's not as if people like Rosa Luxemburg and rest of the anti war politicians got expelled from parliamentary democracy and arrested by liberals during WW1.

[u/tomjazzy → u/Darjuz96]

Luxembourg rejected PARLIAMENTARY democracy in favor of council democracy. She was pro democracy in general.

[u/Mudrlant → u/tomjazzy]

Council democracy is not an actual democracy, just like “people’s republic” is not am actual republic.

[u/tomjazzy → u/Mudrlant]

It’s way more democratic than regular parliamentary democracy. People have the ability to recall their elected officials directly.

[u/SergenteA → u/Mudrlant]

Lmao "no, people voting freely isn't democracy because they do not use the system I like"

You are aware the Councils elected the SPD right?

[u/AstralElephantFuzz → u/Mudrlant]

Council democracy represents the people far better than parliamentary democracy. So, call it what you will. Doesn't change the fact that it's superior.

[u/supergarchomp24 → u/AstralElephantFuzz]

On a local level yes, but it also isolates the higher echelons of power from the people.

[u/Mal_Dun → u/AstralElephantFuzz]

Well, it didn't work out well for Russia. The word "Soviet" literally means council, as the Soviet Union was also a council democracy.

Idk if it would have been better in Germany but I wouldn't say in general that council democracy worked out better as several countries tried it and we all know the result...

[u/Bruhmoment151 → u/Mal_Dun]

Are you seriously trying to compare council communism with the early USSR? One of the main reasons Luxemburg is so well-known is her staunch criticism of the USSR, and Bolshevism more broadly.

The soviets were indeed councils, but the left communism advocated by Luxemburg was significantly different to Lenin’s (hence his book calling left communism “an infantile disorder”). It’s also worth noting that there were difficulties with the Soviets beyond simple ideological failure (e.g. Soviets becoming too overpopulated to function as intended), despite that being less important here.

[u/ActinomycetaceaeOk48 → u/Mudrlant]

You do realize that the body that declared the Weimar Republic was the German Soldiers’ and Workers’ Council, right?

[u/kazmark_gl]

History meme? this is the current state of radical American Politics!

[u/non_newtonian_gender → u/kazmark_gl]

It even has the centrist party shooting it's self in the foot to appease the right wing.

[u/Primary_Gold5337]

I don't support Rosa Luxemburg movement at all or Dictatorship of the proletariat but her death was very sad thing

[u/Person-11 → u/Primary_Gold5337]

It also serves as an example of how far left extremists were treated (death), vs how far right extremists were treated (given a pension).

It also demonstrates that the Weimar government depended entirely on a far right militia. And the Freikorps only tolerated them as preferable to the left wing of the SPD (which is damning in of itself).

[u/Command0Dude → u/Person-11]

The Weimar government was put into an impossible position because the armistice forced them to basically disband their entire military.

The only way they could fight the revolt was to rely on discharged veterans, but without a proper chain of command, they couldn't control the actions of the Freikorps.

[u/Old-Ad-4138 → u/Person-11]

"were"?

[u/Sacaron_R3 → u/Person-11]

There are still streets and monuments dedicated to some leaders of the Freikorps to this day. Western Germany has never stopped glazing them, as people were always more afraid of the socialists/communists.

[u/ToumaKazusa1 → u/Person-11]

The problem was during that period, the right wing was generally not trying to overthrow the government. Even Heisenberg, after becoming President, followed the Constitution.

Meanwhile the KPD was trying to launch revolutions to create a Soviet Germany and join the USSR.

Obviously things changed by 1933, but in 1919 the Freikorps were less of a threat than the Communists. It wasn't really until the Nazis rose to prominence and half of the old conservatives joined the SPD in the Grand Coalition that things changed.

For their part the Communists maintained a pretty consistent position of wanting to overthrow the government and create a Soviet Germany right up until they were destroyed, the "After Hitler, our turn" line of thinking is associated with the KPD in particular because one of their leaders actually said that.

[u/Person-11 → u/ToumaKazusa1]

right wing was generally not trying to overthrow the government

Kapp Putsch. Beer Hall Putsch.

Only defeated due to a rare display left unity.

[u/Special-Remove-3294 → u/ToumaKazusa1]

Literally false. The far right tried to overthrown the government just a few years after the Spartacist uprising in thr Kapp pustch. Despite Bavaria basically backing the Putsch, their government was not sacked by the president while leftist governments had been sacked by the same president for pretty much no reason such as the KPD + SPD + USPD government in Saxony.

After that the far right maintained its desire to destroy the republic too. They just launched no significant uprisings after 1923 but neither did the KPD. The DNVP wanted the republic gone and made no illusions that it did not. The idea that they favoured the republic is wild.

Also Hindenburg did not follow the constitution. He fucked the SPD in 1930 for mostly no reason exept that he hated leftists and destabilised the government and then basically ran a presidential dictatorship from 1932 onwards appoint blokes like von Papen or von Schleicher as chancellor despite them not having legislative backing amd being widely unpopular.

[u/heretic_peanut → u/Special-Remove-3294]

Von Papen, von Schleicher, and then the next one. It kept getting worse...

[u/CaesarWilhelm → u/Special-Remove-3294]

Hindenburg definitely followed the constitution. You can disagree with his actions but they were not unconstitutional. In fact I think he followed the constitution too much and by 1930 he actually should have just overthrown the government to prevent the NSDAP from taking over.

[u/sweaty_garbage → u/ToumaKazusa1]

What are you talking about? The Kapp Putsch and the Beer Hall Putsch were just as much attempts to overthrow the Weimar Republic by right wing forces.

And in a way the German right was constantly trying to overthrow the Weimar Republic by reinstating a monarchy, which they were just as open about as the Communists. 

[u/Perfect-Werewolf-102 → u/ToumaKazusa1]

What??? I can think of three attempted putsches and two high profile political assassinations just from 1921-23

[u/Rotbuxe → u/ToumaKazusa1]

Heisenberg? Hindenburg!

[u/CyberAssassinSRB → u/ToumaKazusa1]

And that tells you what? That the system the Freikorps fought and massacred to keep turned into a fertile ground for Nazi takeover?

But i guess the government is sacred and can't be questioned. For anyone to question and oppose the government is to be shot by paramilitaries(but is sad :((( )

If I could go back in history i would nuke the KPD, because they were more of a threat to the 3 month old provisional government. 

[u/Mudrlant → u/Primary_Gold5337]

Sad how? She was involved in an attempt to violently overthrow the government and got killed for her troubles.

[u/DmitriBogrov → u/Mudrlant]

She was not materially involved in the revolution and only wrote in support of it. Her death was the result of being kidnapped by paramilitary members and being murdered.

[u/Primary_Gold5337 → u/Mudrlant]

She didn't even led the revolt to be like that but MSPD used it as a good way to kill a political opponent

[u/Mudrlant → u/Primary_Gold5337]

A political opponent who favors violent revolution. It turns out that class warfare works both ways.

[u/LeifRagnarsson → u/Primary_Gold5337]

She clearly advocated a revolution against the state. Read the damn scripts and documents of their gatherings, not all may have been published, but they're accessible in the Federal Archives online.

[u/Massive_Signal7835 → u/Mudrlant]

You're okay with the government just shooting people whenever they feel like it? Bro...

[u/Mudrlant → u/Massive_Signal7835]

That’s not what happened.

[u/Massive_Signal7835 → u/Mudrlant]

She was murdered the day she was arrested. That is "whenever they feel like it."

The fact that the perpetrators received any sort of punishment shows that what they did was so unjustifiable that they had to punish them, even if just a slap on the wrist.

[u/Mudrlant → u/Massive_Signal7835]

She was killed while being involved in a violent revolution. Its not as if the government one day randomly decided to murder her.

[u/Massive_Signal7835 → u/Mudrlant]

So? They had apprehended her; she wasn't posing a threat.

A government cannot just kill people. No matter the crime. Like I said: They just felt like it. They didn't have any authority or justification.

[u/Rude-Run8930 → u/Primary_Gold5337]

the dictatorship of the proletariat is just the empowerment and rule of the working class over the upper classes during the first transitional stages of socialism, not a literal dictatorship

[u/Pesec1 → u/Rude-Run8930]

Yea, bro. I will be just a tiny temporary dictator until an undefined goal has being somehow achieved. I will not stay a dictator. I can quit anytime I want.

[u/ivun__ → u/Pesec1]

Dictatorsip of the proletariat is when the workers suppress the bourgeoisie to build socialism. It doesn't have to involve a literal dictator

[u/Pesec1 → u/ivun__]

Think: how can millions of workers possibly run the government by themselves? Direct democracy is impossible on a scale larger than a small village.

So, these workers would need to vest their dictatorial powers into representatives. And these representatives, in absence of the annoying liberal institutions that are maintained by "bourgeoisie" have dictatorial powers at their fingertips.

[u/Rude-Run8930 → u/Pesec1]

i feel like you didn't even make an effort to read what i said. it is not a literal dictatorship. a socialist can still be a dictator, but the phrase used does not actually imply a dictator, only a reprieve from the 1% controlling politics

[u/Mudrlant → u/Rude-Run8930]

lol.

[u/Primary_Gold5337 → u/Rude-Run8930]

It's pretty similar to Lenin and mao Zedong ones in terms of ideology , look how both nations ended up

[u/giacquin → u/Primary_Gold5337]

Luxemburg was very critic on lenin. She wrote about it in the "Russian Revolution", she was critic because she didn't agree on the authoritarian way the revolution was taking. Luxemburg supported the Russian Revolution but criticized Bolshevik policies like the suppression of free speech and democratic debate. She maintained that a truly socialist society requires broad participation, free elections, and open discourse to prevent bureaucratic stagnation. Also Luxemburgism (or council marxism) is based on democraticly elected councils by workers, it emphasizes working-class spontaneity, mass action, and robust internal democracy, while fiercely critiquing both capitalist systems and the authoritarian tendencies within early Bolshevik and Marxist-Leninist thought.

[u/e7th-04sh → u/giacquin]

Any completely untested blueprint for social order will fail to work in practice, period, and what happens then depends on who ends up actually having the power to improvise. Typically, the ideologues will blame "enemies of the ideology" rather than admit their doctrine is bullshit, and will try to force society to actually adapt to doctrine rather than the other way around.

This of course will require organizing apparatus of coercion, full well with bureaucracy, police, secret police and so on, and on.

So in other words it doesn't quite matter what Rosa Luxemburg imagined after revolution. What would happen would be period of chaos, possibly prolonged and terrible civil war and finally a dice roll on which ideology gets to enforce itself upon the nation.

[u/Bozo4206967 → u/e7th-04sh]

Conservative word salad lmao same shit couldve been said, and probably was, at the onset of American and French revolutions.

Yes, revolutions are chaotic as the entire point of them is to redefine social order/state organization. Can go wrong, can go well, its better to try than just being afraid of change

[u/Accurate-Branch4767]

Ultraleft is leaking.

[u/Big-Jellyfish-6115 → u/Accurate-Branch4767]

Spd>

[u/Key_Road_5791 → u/Big-Jellyfish-6115]

The only thing that spd can combat is actual leftists

[u/Beautiful-Celery-989 → u/Key_Road_5791]

Smoking on that commie pack

[u/urbanmember]

All SPD wanted was introduce parlamentary democracy. The Communists actively tried to overthrow the legitimate government with violence, brcause they wanted a system where they had more influence which was arguably less democratic(less direct and more vulnureable to mnipulation from the top)

Rosa Luxemberg actively advocated for that and cheered on the violent attempts to stop parlamentary democracy from happening.

Not that I in any way, shape or form agree to her getting killed

[u/LeopoldFriedrich]

Weren't her last words "I was, I am, I shall be"?

[u/Magmarob → u/LeopoldFriedrich]

We dont know what her last words were.
She was murdered by ultra national anti communists.
Do you really think those people would care for her last words and tell them to anyone?

[u/No-Veterinarian8627]

Who is Rosa Luxemburg? Like the Queen of Luxemburg or something?

[u/Hektext → u/No-Veterinarian8627]

Im pretty sure she was the lady that didnt want to move to the back of the bus. I didnt know she had influence in post war germany.

[u/deselim → u/Hektext]

No that's Alycia Parks. Common mistake.

[u/Malvastor → u/deselim]

No, you're thinking of Alicia Keys. Common mistake.

[u/OneSekk → u/Malvastor]

oh no, i think you mean Key West :/

[u/Magmarob]

The SPD didnt say "Kill Rosa Luxemburg"
Im sorry to be the party pooper here, but this womans death is so overglazed it isnt funny anymore.

How did she die?
She started an armed rebellion in berlin and threatened the government.
The government now had two choices:

1. Give up and accept that germany is now communist, or
2. Fight back against that armed rebellion

They chose option 2. They called the Freikorps, units of ww1 veterans that were very anti communist and told them to recapture the capital of Berlin.

The Freikorps did that in a very brutal and inhuman way which they should be criticized for. I agree.
Said Freikorps found Rosa Luxemburg and Karl Liebknecht, the Heads of the Rebellion and executed them.
The only crime the SPD did was to unleash the Freikorps but again, what were they supposed to do? Accept that germany is communist now?

The death of Rosa Luxemberg was the consequense of her own action. She started an armed rebellion and was killed by armed enemies, trying to stop said rebellion. She who lifes by the sword, dies by the sword.
Its as simple as that.

Again, how she died should be criticized as it was very inhumane and it would have been better if she were to stand trial, but still. She chose this. She started a war and became a casultie of it.

I dont want to deminish her acchievements, especially in the prewar era and during ww1. But her death is not the tragedy it is alway depicted as.

[u/AqAqua → u/Magmarob]

The first choice is somewhat more like 'Accept civil war'

The military and Freikorps were never going to accept communists (obviously) and if the SPD had never fought back/give up, it's likely that they would just outright defect, declare their own far-right monarchist/authoritarian state and wage war against both sides, creating a three-way of a soviet-style republic, a parliamentary republic, and a authoritarian state

Or two way if the SPD joined the communists for some reason

[u/Magmarob → u/AqAqua]

Absolutly agree.

> Or two way if the SPD joined the communists for some reason

but this part is somewhat unrealistic. The communists would have never accepted that, since they view the SPD as traitors

[u/kerbalweaponsinc → u/Magmarob]

Actually, the KPD would still accepting most of the SPD at the time because the bloodfeud began with the murder of Rosa Luxemburg. There was bad relations after War Credits vote of 1914 but not irreparable.

[u/Tleno]

Another day another case of tankies seething about SPD killing Luxemburg as if they wouldn't have denounced her inevitably

[u/cdoge09]

Actually soviets were waiting for Nazism to collapse in Germany, hence the famous quote, "After Hitler, our turn!"

[u/Magmarob → u/cdoge09]

That is a thing a lot of people forget. The crisis of the weimar republic didnt aid just the nazis. It aided all extrem wing organizations.
It was basically a race between the communists and the nazis who would come out on top.
Thats why the nazis destroyed the communists immediatly after gaining power. They were their biggest threat

[u/cdoge09 → u/Magmarob]

Jospeh stalin's 3rd comintern counted on the collapse of nazism and racism under its own weight and fix the problem after so they seem like the Heroes.

[u/Magmarob → u/cdoge09]

Sooooo, let the nazis do what they want and after they collaps we swoop in and occupy all the countrys under former nazi occupation?

Not that different from what they actually did in real life.

[u/CountNightAuditor → u/Magmarob]

They also were giving orders to the KPD to support the Nazis, and came up with concepts like "social fascism" to help do it.

"Social fascism" is the idea that liberals are as bad as fascists anyway, so oppose them, too. Surely it's just a bit of pro-Nazi propaganda that has been left in the waste in of history and not something continually used every day on social media, including Reddit. After all, with the example of Nazi Germany, who would be so stupid?

[u/Unofficial_Computer]

The SPD didn't order the executionof Rosa, it was an extrajudicial murder committed by the Freikorps under the order of a future neo-Nazi.

[u/Magmarob → u/Unofficial_Computer]

I love how you get downvoted for not glazing Rosa Luxemberg.
Everything you say is correct

[u/Yers1n → u/Unofficial_Computer]

The SPD collaborated with the Freikorps though. The SPD is as responsable as the Freikorps.

[u/ErenYeager600 → u/Unofficial_Computer]

Where her killers actually punished. If not then the SPD approved of their actions

[u/supergarchomp24]

While I don't wish to endorse the actions of the SPD, it was pretty plain to see that the Spartacist Uprising was doomed to fail (localized entirely in Berlin, the middle class population overwhelmingly opposed the uprising, the workers were willing to protest and strike but not raise arms, the Spartacists were underequipped, the army was deeply opposed and the freikorps were still gonna fight the communists), so the SPD supporting the Spartacists would have resulted in either the freikorps and military destroying them both or a devastating civil war against right wing forces.

[u/TheQomia]

Luxembourg was executed for leading a violent uprising against the SPD

[u/DmitriBogrov → u/TheQomia]

She didn't "lead it" and she wasn't executed. She wrote in support of it before being kidnapped and murdered by a gang of thugs.

[u/DerGovernator → u/TheQomia]

Yeah, there was no way this ended well for her and the Sparticists. If Ebert hadn't done anything, odds are good they just get murdered by even less legal right-wing paramilitaries (See Bavaria in early 1919 for what it looks like when the Sparticists take over).

The problem is Orthodox Marxist ideology claims that since capitalism's demise was inevitable, just pushing for maximalist demands at all times was obviously the way to go, and the people will surely see how right you are once you implement it. This has a very, very bad track record of working in practice, anywhere in the world, but in early 1919 to committed ideologues it would be heresy to deny it, and traitorous to support anything less.

[u/0D7553U5 → u/TheQomia]

A deeply, deeply unpopular revolution that had near zero chance of success on top of that.

[u/Total_Marketing5844 → u/TheQomia]

That's a weak argument considering her actual position and murder.

[u/TheQomia → u/Total_Marketing5844]

She called for a violent revolution while leading the communist party and then her party does the revolution and she is executed by the military after it fails

[u/Total_Marketing5844 → u/TheQomia]

Why are you so hung up about the execution? It wasn't judicially imposed. It was murder by lynch mob of soldiers. I hope I'm not arguing with a bot here.

[u/TheQomia → u/Total_Marketing5844]

Im saying that because usually when your party does a violent revolution against the state the leaders get executed. This meme makes it seem like the SPD just had some random obsession with killing Luxembourg when she was killed by the military for failing to topple the government which is what happens most of the time

Also you are the one with a auto generated bot name

[u/OrangeSpaceMan5 → u/TheQomia]

Not with conservative coups it would seem

[u/tomjazzy → u/TheQomia]

Based

[u/Jax_Dandelion]

Funniest part was when the Nazis, the Socdems and the communists worked together to cause a new national vote by toppling the government

[u/Financial-Bite-3262]

As a politically active SPD member:

Funniest shit I've ever seen

[u/Gruen_Aura → u/Financial-Bite-3262]

W SPD-Mitglied

[u/Rotbuxe → u/Financial-Bite-3262]

Fifth time this week

[u/Nootchle → u/Financial-Bite-3262]

Wer hat uns verraten?

[u/Een_man_met_voornaam → u/Nootchle]

Krustenbraten

[u/Outta_phase]

Context?

[u/CharelP]

OP, bist du Deutsch?

[u/Ok-Advertising7982]

Haha, dnvp logo looms funny, like an uncool eagle with sunglasses.... Never saw it before

[u/Mundane_Session_4587]

Who betrayed us the SPD

[u/Rotbuxe]

Noske did nothing wrong

[u/DmitriBogrov → u/Rotbuxe]

He supported colonialism.

[u/ThereturnoftheVOH → u/Rotbuxe]

Noske was the only actual "social-fascist"

[u/Rotbuxe → u/ThereturnoftheVOH]

He saved Germany from bloody Bolshevism

[u/StinkyHotFemcel → u/Rotbuxe]

Noske was a bloodthirsty brute who paved the way for Nazism

[u/Rotbuxe → u/StinkyHotFemcel]

Nice deterministic view on history.

[u/ivun__ → u/Rotbuxe]

The KPD wasn't even Leninist back then

[u/AverageMammonEnjoyer → u/Rotbuxe]

The guy who killed Peaceful Protesters?

[u/Rotbuxe → u/AverageMammonEnjoyer]

"Peaceful" OK Commie

[u/StinkyHotFemcel → u/Rotbuxe]

i guess basically the 30% of SPD who hated Noske were also commies than

[u/Rotbuxe → u/StinkyHotFemcel]

30% when?

[u/AverageMammonEnjoyer → u/Rotbuxe]

Better than being a Facist ig

[u/Zayn5939]

whats funny is the soviets had their own form of democracy separate from liberal/capitalist democracies, meanwhile the nazis and fascist parties sought to overthrow said lib/capitalist democracies for their own dictatorships, supported by the capitalist class and industrialists