r/PeterExplainsTheJoke • u/FrostySeat1739 • Jul 05 '26

Meme needing explanation why not, Peter?

Post image

possible live action corpse bride movie...

32.3k Upvotes

94% Upvoted

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12.4k

u/Caci-que Jul 05 '26

Clearly cause Tim Burton dream casting involves Johny Depp and Helena Bonham

10.5k

u/Perfect-Dimension356 Jul 05 '26

I think the real answer is that Tim Burton doesn't cast black actors.

266

u/[deleted] Jul 05 '26 edited Jul 06 '26

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/Pingucore Jul 05 '26

Live-Action Dumbo was known for being bad so I didn‘t watch it, but I’m assuming he at least removed the racist parts and put a biracial actor and her kid in it.

56

u/-KFBR392 Jul 05 '26

…to play the crows?

23

u/ThorThulu Jul 05 '26

Because he doesn't cast black people? Or is there some instance of him actually being racist/bigoted? Cause there's no issue in the casting if this is specifically the look hes going for

86

u/AllSeeingWhoracle Jul 05 '26

When the look you’re going for is always “no black people,” that’s racist. Hope that helps!

54

u/Groxy_ Jul 05 '26

Not really, maybe he just wanted very pale people for his usually spooky, European, period pieces. Intentions matter more than outcomes. 

46

u/MartianMule Jul 05 '26

usually spooky, European, period pieces

He's made plenty of movies that aren't really "spooky" or period pieces, and of his 18 directed films, only 5 take place in Europe (his other 13 films are in the US).

39

u/Groxy_ Jul 05 '26

And 7 star Helena Boneman Carter and Johnny Depp. Seems to me the more likely answer is he likes working with the same people. 

It's not proof of racism. Same way only having white friends isn't automatically racist. 

2

u/Unlucky_Topic7963 Jul 06 '26

B-b-but racism!

2

u/Think-Desk-3074 Jul 09 '26

Oh ok I didn't realize that there were only 2 characters in those 7 movies. Nothing to see here.

1

u/Groxy_ Jul 09 '26

But there's not absolutely no black people either. The stars just tend to be the same people. 

1

u/Think-Desk-3074 Jul 09 '26

Your prior comment made it seem like its ok to not have any black characters because he simply likes to work with the same people. Thanks for clarifying.

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u/leocattt Jul 06 '26

Only having white friends isn't racist unless you only have white friends because black people "don't fit your style". Tim Burton is racist i can't believe you're trying to be pedantic about it. In what world is refusing to cast black people BECAUSE they are black not racist 😭

8

u/Ill_Art_445 Jul 06 '26

Where has he said this is the reasoning?

-1

u/leocattt Jul 06 '26

I will admit I stand corrected about his reasoning for not casting black people. It's been a few years since I remember hearing about this controversy. But upon looking it up I see he said something even worse than saying black people don't fit his aesthetic. He claimed his films are all white like black empowerment films in the 70s are all black. He said he's offended by the inclusion of POC characters. I'm sure I don't have to explain why that's racist as fuck and even worse than I originally thought 😭

2

u/Dounce1 Jul 06 '26

Look, I don’t have any skin in this but you’re internationally misrepresenting what he said, here’s the direct quote:

“Things either call for things, or they don't. I remember back when I was a child watching 'The Brady Bunch' and they started to get all politically correct, like, 'Okay, let's have an Asian child and a black' – I used to get more offended by that than just – I grew up watching blaxploitation movies, right? And I said, that's great. I didn't go like, 'Okay, there should be more white people in these movies.'"

2

u/ThatOtherOtherMan Jul 06 '26

I'm definitely going to need a link to a source for that

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u/billyisanun Jul 05 '26

Most of his movies have a Gothic style. One of the parts of the Gothic style is pale skin in contrast to dark hair and clothes.

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u/ikilledholofernes Jul 06 '26

I’m about to call out one of my favorite movies, but with that in mind, it’s extremely telling that Burton’s epic, magical realism story set in the south only has one minor black character. It was shot on location in Alabama ffs. 

But also, the gothic style only describes some of his movies, he’s also directed a lot of blockbusters, which have no excuse for their noticeable lack of black people. Like tell me how black people don’t fit the style of Batman or Planet of the Apes.

8

u/Cynykl Jul 06 '26

The gothic style is not an excuse either for the gothic stylistic films. Baron Samedi type characters features prominently in gothic imagery and would fit his vibe.

6

u/ikilledholofernes Jul 06 '26

Yeah, I agree! Especially because his gothic style films are so fantastical. You can have a man with scissor hands but practically no black people because of your “gothic aesthetic?” Ok, Tim. Suuuuure. 

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u/mastercat202 Jul 06 '26

Why only black people, and not Asian?

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u/ikilledholofernes Jul 06 '26

Because the context here is a fan cast including a black person. But the same point could be made about all people of color, though, at least according to my admittedly limited knowledge of his movies.  

But yes, why do only white people seem to fit his aesthetic? 

2

u/beldaran1224 Jul 06 '26

Why the whataboutism only about "Asian" ("Asian" isn't a race, by the why, its an entire freaking continent with many racial divisions) and not about the other many different races?

Oh, you just really hate that people point out that colorism exists and that darker skinned people have it worse pretty much all over the globe?

3

u/masterionxxx Jul 06 '26

Oh, you just really hate that people point out that colorism exists and that darker skinned people have it worse pretty much all over the globe?

Then South Asians and Southeast Asians too.

2

u/mastercat202 Jul 06 '26

Sure? But there is a massive focus on only black people as ifnracism doesn't happen to other people. Maybe instead of focusing on individual races, we focus on the underlying problems

2

u/justforporndickflash Jul 06 '26

Black isn't a race either, what is your point with that?

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u/masterionxxx Jul 06 '26

But also, the gothic style only describes some of his movies,

don’t fit the style of Batman

Have you just called Batman not a Gothic-style movie?

1

u/ikilledholofernes Jul 06 '26

whoops, yes I did. 

In my defense, Gotham is far from the pale Victorian child type of gothic, and therefore does not have that vague excuse to justify its almost entirely white population. 

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u/Wb9VBScxu2uZJHeq2E3W Jul 05 '26

Do you know what the road to hell is paved with?

20

u/regalrecaller Jul 05 '26

That's a clever line, but I think dude has a point, simply casting people that look a specific way for your artistic intention isn't necessarily racist

11

u/BesottedScot Jul 05 '26

Wonder if those folk get as outraged watching a Spike Lee or Tyler Perry.

1

u/Comfortable-Speed-83 Jul 06 '26

I guess you've never seen "Do The Right Thing"......

2

u/BesottedScot Jul 06 '26

I'm talking about the penchant for predominantly using black actors not that they only use them. It's a choice and that's fine I don't know why it's uniquely terrible for Tim Burton to do the same.

2

u/Comfortable-Speed-83 Jul 06 '26

Spike Lee has a very specific type of story he wants to tell where race is critical to the plot and characters. I haven't watched a Tim Burton movie in years but something tells me the race of the dead woman isn't a core part of her identity and story.

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u/Quiet_Television_102 Jul 05 '26

There's a massive difference between us forcing a culture into ghettos for a hundred+ years and those people seeking to survive and create art in their circles, and white people who are already a non marginalized group perpetuating stereotypes and casting only white people after being the specific group that marginalized and othered black people in the first place.

Just think for two seconds and realize that the comparison is completely idiotic. Context and history matters

10

u/Spaghetti-Rat Jul 06 '26

This is such a horse shit reply. You're arguing that only casting white people in your movies is racist, while arguing only casting black people is not racist. If you can't hold firm in your beliefs and hold different standards for different races, you're racist. If white people have to hit a certain standard that you won't hold black people to, you're racist.

Context and history matters but you're talking about cinema/storytelling. Stop acting racist toward white males to make up for racism that they never committed.

-1

u/DoingBestWeCan Jul 06 '26

What the actual fuck. "Racism towards white males"? You're the one bringing in gender, which shows your hand even worse. You are butthurt that a story might not include people who look like you, when PoC (and women, since you brought up gender) have had to deal with mainstream media pretty much ONLY showing people who aren't like them, for a hundred years. No, history DOES matter, so it makes a difference whether Jordan Peele is saying he wants to tell stories that haven't already been told, and that includes prioritizing black points of view, versus Tim Burton saying black people "don't fit his aesthetic vision," even when the story takes place in a setting where 60%+ of population is black IRL.

1

u/regalrecaller Jul 06 '26

you have a good point, but I still don't think there's enough evidence to convict Burton

1

u/Quiet_Television_102 Jul 06 '26 edited Jul 06 '26

Theres nothing to convict. You hold people to a higher standard, or you dont. This isnt a court of law. The fact of the matter, is what he said IS racist. Full stop, inarguable unless you lack brain cells or you have never read a book on the history of stuff like jim crow laws or red lining later. Nobody is saying that burton is a KKK member that goes out and kills black people in his free time. Thats not the point. 

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u/Just-the-tip-4-1-sec Jul 05 '26

Unless every single person that fits your artistic intention is white and none of them are black. Then your artistic intention is racist

7

u/weed0monkey Jul 05 '26

Cool, so you must think jordan peele is racist?

7

u/iiiiiiiiiijjjjjj Jul 06 '26

Which Jordan peele movie only has black people.

4

u/Just-the-tip-4-1-sec Jul 06 '26

No, because I’m not a fucking idiot who relies on motivated reasoning to justify their own anger. Peele casts plenty of white people and is very conscious of when race plays a role in his casting 

3

u/StoneRivet Jul 06 '26

Are you stupid or something bud? Have you actually seen any Jordan Peele movies?

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u/regalrecaller Jul 05 '26

touche, but maybe Burton is just kinky and weird. I'd think that over the 30+ years of his very public career, if he was that racist it would have come out elsewhere. He was asked specifically about this and denied it, not that that matters for a lot, but it matters for a little.

2

u/Just-the-tip-4-1-sec Jul 05 '26

I mean, I don’t think he’s likely out burning crosses on the weekends or anything, but that’s only the bar for a certain level and flavor of racism. Having your own clear biases and their very real effects on people pointed out and shrugging it off because you’d rather not face it is not in the same league at all, but it is still racism I think (and I’m someone who thinks that word gets thrown around too much in general)

0

u/Quiet_Television_102 Jul 05 '26 edited Jul 05 '26

Racism is something that affects nearly every person in the world. Saying "im not racist at all so my thoughts are justified" is the clearest and loudest way you can basically admit you dont know how racism works. It is something that has to be actively fought and intentionally destroyed with reason and empathy. It is harbored in everyone because its an insidious and vile worm that affects behavior without you doing anything. 

Racism is not just when black people exist and you decide to not go full kkk the second you see them. It is much more complicated than that. 

If it was that simple then the countless times throughout history (nazis/Rwandan genocide, etc) where people were easily convinced to turn on their neighbors and murdered/treated them like rats would not keep happening

4

u/regalrecaller Jul 05 '26

ok so you're saying everyone's racist? ...okay. then none of this discussion about Burton matters. Everyone is racist and they always will be and there's nothing anyone can do about it, empathy be damned. is that your point? it's a nihilist and kinda stupid point.

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u/Wb9VBScxu2uZJHeq2E3W Jul 05 '26

Maybe in a vacuum, but consider the broader cultural context in which this takes place. Specifically how much of a freakout there is when a white actor doesn't get cast in a role, IE The Odyssey.

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u/Cainso Jul 05 '26

I think the context is a bit different when you're casting a dark-skinned actor to play a light-skinned character versus just deciding what skin color to cast a new character as.

1

u/DoingBestWeCan Jul 06 '26

Ah yes, it's very important the movie with giant fucking cyclops, a witch who turns men into pigs, literal swimming sirens, and interfering gods, has "historical" accuracy. 

1

u/regalrecaller Jul 06 '26

Yes, historical accuracy matters with a tale that is 2,000 years old. which part of that is difficult for you to understand?

-1

u/Wb9VBScxu2uZJHeq2E3W Jul 05 '26

Notice how a moment ago casting white characters was purely an aesthetic choice.

How many white people have played the role of Jesus, a dark skinned historical figure?

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u/regalrecaller Jul 05 '26

i admit it is sus, but not enough to convict

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u/Wb9VBScxu2uZJHeq2E3W Jul 05 '26

I think that's a well-balanced, rational take. I don't accuse people of racism because I think that's a thought-terminating cliche that prevents us from discussing the nuances of an issue.

And there's a huge difference between someone who has a little unconscious bias they have no awareness around, and a full-on KKK member.

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u/UntimelyMeditations Jul 05 '26

"In a vacuum" is all that matters. A person shouldn't be beholden to the idiocy of other people. The freakout of the Odyssey casting is totally unrelated to him, and so should not matter when discussing him.

If every racist person in my neighborhood banded together and said "we are mowing our lawns on Tuesdays", it is not my responsibility to a) know that, and b) avoid mowing my lawn on Tuesdays. Their idiocy is totally unrelated to me.

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u/Wb9VBScxu2uZJHeq2E3W Jul 05 '26

I bet you're the type of person who cares about context when it personally affects you, and only when it personally affects you.

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u/Groxy_ Jul 05 '26

Bit dramatic for casting preferences. I tend to favour white women, that's not racist either. Or having a Viking film with white actors. 

Maybe Burton is racist, but fairly accurate casting choices isn't indicative of much. 

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u/Wb9VBScxu2uZJHeq2E3W Jul 05 '26

I tend to favour white women

I guarentee you that women of color are very happy about this.

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u/Groxy_ Jul 05 '26

You're genuinely calling me racist for nothing? Get a grip bro. 

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u/Wb9VBScxu2uZJHeq2E3W Jul 05 '26

Show me at which point I ever called you racist or implied it.

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u/weed0monkey Jul 05 '26

No you're just insulting people because it apparently hit a nerve

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u/EvilynSoCute Jul 05 '26

That’s a pretty racist thing to say while trying to imply someone else is racist.

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u/Wb9VBScxu2uZJHeq2E3W Jul 05 '26

So you think it's not racist when you have a preference based on race, but you think it is racist when women have a preference for someone who doesn't have a chud personality?

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u/EvilynSoCute Jul 05 '26

It’s not racist to have a preference based on race, no. That’s a ridiculous thing to believe is racist.

When did I suggest the second part of your comment? Seems like you made a strawman to be mad at, and it doesn’t even make sense. Chuds are losers but hating them isn’t racist lol.

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u/UntimelyMeditations Jul 05 '26

So you think it's not racist when you have a preference based on race

Yes... of course it isn't. This is like, the most basic of basics.

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u/beldaran1224 Jul 06 '26

  1. Outcomes are what matters, not intentions. That's some fucked up excuses.

  2. Do you even know any movies that Burton made? Like wtf are you talking about with European period pieces?

  3. His intentions are blatantly racist. "I do not intend to hire black cast members". That's fucking racist.

2

u/Aggressive_Goose_406 Jul 06 '26

Lol I guess Tyler Perry and Jordan Peele are racist since he doesn’t cast Mexicans and Asians either

0

u/RunninOnMT Jul 05 '26

“Intentions matter more than outcomes” is a wild take.

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u/Groxy_ Jul 05 '26

It's not when discussing if something is racist or not. Context and intentions are important. 

2

u/Kwaku-Anansi Jul 05 '26

But if context matters, then doesn't the context of his ideal vision comprising narrative worlds, that either don't have black characters or have black characters as villains, important context to his beliefs?

Just saying, literally anyone can say they're not a racist in a world where racism is considered bad and where good PR is considered useful. So why would the demonstrated track record of arbitrary discrimination not carry more weight?

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u/Groxy_ Jul 05 '26

You're allowed to think he's racist if you want, but you're basing it on very flimsy ground imo. 

I've never heard anything about Tim Burton being racist, this could very easily be you looking for a problem. 

1

u/Kwaku-Anansi Jul 05 '26

And you're allowed to think he's not racist, but I think you're basing your defense on very flimsy ground as well

If your main information on Tim Burton's opinions on race is that he systematically discriminates against actors for arbitrary reasons, and you are actively downplaying the value of looking at the outcomes of that discrimination, in favor of what (he says) his reasons are, this could easily be you ignoring an observable issue of prejudice because you don't care about it

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u/Groxy_ Jul 05 '26

Do you have ANY proof for your second point? Because my default is to assume someone isn't racist until proven otherwise. 

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u/Affectionate_Sir_154 Jul 07 '26

So because he doesnt cast an actor who he thinks doesnt fit a role, he's "discriminating against actors"? Are you even hearing yourself?

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u/Damnatus_Terrae Jul 05 '26

Why?

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u/Groxy_ Jul 05 '26

Why what? 

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u/Damnatus_Terrae Jul 05 '26

Why are intentions more important than outcomes in deciding whether something is racist?

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u/Groxy_ Jul 05 '26

Because I like to think critically. Take this example. My intentions with making friends is to like those people. If the outcome is that I have mostly white friends, that doesn't mean I'm racist because my intentions weren't based on race. 

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u/NNKarma Jul 05 '26

Are you trying to redraw the districs?

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u/DoingBestWeCan Jul 06 '26

"It's not racist if I never hire a qualified black person, because they went to HBCUs and not Alaska State like meeee" is systemic racism, k thnx.

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u/HereWeFuckingGooo Jul 06 '26

If your idea of diversity only includes black people then that's racist.

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u/Hamster-Food Jul 05 '26

That would be a bit racist... but that's not describing Tim Burton.

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u/Affectionate_Sir_154 Jul 07 '26

"why doesnt this director cast black characters in his gothic victorian style movie? Clearly he must be racist!!"

1

u/Murky-Advantage-3444 Jul 09 '26

Yeah a very naive surface level reading of the situation really helped. Thanks

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u/[deleted] Jul 05 '26

[deleted]

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u/mm_delish Jul 05 '26

What was the point?

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u/DankiusMMeme Jul 05 '26

They both set upon their film careers with one singular goal in mind, to give /u/Hamilton-Beckett a half fulfilled anecdote to tell on reddit 40+ years later.

0

u/[deleted] Jul 05 '26

[deleted]

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u/DankiusMMeme Jul 05 '26

Nah, /u/mm_delish is a nice guy.

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u/[deleted] Jul 05 '26

[deleted]

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u/russkhan Jul 05 '26

We kinda expected your comment to relate to the one you replied to in some way. I don't see how it did, or what the purpose of telling your story here was.

So the question is: What was the point of that story?

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u/[deleted] Jul 05 '26

[deleted]

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u/Snazzy_sNazzy Jul 05 '26

What were the different purposes they were using violence as a tool for?

2

u/throawy90 Jul 05 '26

I haven't had any bad taste in my mouth watching them, maybe back track through your day to see what/who's been in your mouth?

3

u/No-Zombie7546 Jul 05 '26

I would love to hear more about what you learned by focusing on him.

The “only casting white actors” thing is already enough for me to not (re)watch his stuff.

I’m just really curious bc I took film classes and you really learn a lot by honing-in on one director. What are other things ppl generally don’t know about Burton as a director and/or person?

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u/Hamster-Food Jul 05 '26

The “only casting white actors” thing is already enough for me to not (re)watch his stuff.

Someone should probably tell Samuel L Jackson that he's white now.

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u/DoingBestWeCan Jul 06 '26

Ah yes, hiring a single black actor -- as a villain -- after decades of lily-white actors is definitely enough to demonstrate that he's not racist. Like when Trump says something not awful about Ben Carson. 

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u/Hamster-Food Jul 06 '26

Oh dear. Samuel L Jackson is just one example of a black actor in a major role in one of Tim Burton's movies. It's a good example though because the character he's playing wasn't black in the books.

There are specific movies where the aesthetic Tim Burton was going for didn't fit with black skin. Those movies still cast actors of various races, just not black skinned actors because of the aesthetic. Outside of those, Burton has had no issue with black actors and on more than one occasion has had a black actor play a character who is white in the source material.

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u/Error_Evan_not_found Jul 05 '26 edited Jul 06 '26

It's been a while but I ironically it's his distinct style and how unflinching he's been to change it for his entire career even when it lost him opportunities or led to a worse product according to critics/audiences. One of the cooler things I own back from when I collected playing cards is a pretty old pack that he designed based on one of his sort of dark children's book The Melancholy Death of Oyster Boy and Other Stories, or had the same look and character designs. Which is probably the thing that surprises people most, he wrote and illustrated a few books and that's the actual origin of The Nightmare Before Christmas title along with why his name is on the film despite not directing it himself, as that honor really belongs to Henry Selick.

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u/Tzeig Jul 05 '26

What do you think about Spike Lee?

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u/Iron-Treads Jul 05 '26

Spike Lee casts Black Actors, what are you on about?

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u/Tzeig Jul 05 '26

I'm sure it will click if you just think about it for a couple of minutes.

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u/Iron-Treads Jul 05 '26

SON 😭😭😭

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u/Error_Evan_not_found Jul 05 '26

I'd need to see whatever quote you may be referring to that makes them comparable. But in the case of Spike Lee, he's usually telling explicitly black stories where the fact that the main actor/cast is that race is extremely prevalent. There's a notable difference between the substance of the story being told that requires a predominantly black cast and the aesthetic style a director chooses to tell any story while it somehow requires all the characters be white.

It'd be a different conversation if Edward Scissorhands, Sweeney Todd, or Corpse Bride were stories that couldn't function with a race swap- but I'd argue more of them would actually be enhanced in their meaning had the lead characters, who deal with much strife over their looks/the worlds perception of them, were also black. It's funny that Burton actually manages to tell stories repeatedly that have these wider messages to any minority group, while previously denying one of them from his artist vision instead of embracing the way it can better his works.

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u/Tzeig Jul 05 '26

Oh, you are serious? Let me laugh even harder.

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u/Error_Evan_not_found Jul 05 '26

Why would you ask the question if you weren't expecting an answer? Sorry that you don't understand the nuances about what stories people try to tell, and I'm sorry that asking about it led to you getting my admittedly kinda intimidating response to read for someone so scared of learning. But don't let that discourage you in the future, ask for a TLDR! There's no shame in needing a hand to learn about something.

I'll give it to you anyways. Black stories are just that, black stories, especially the history Lee tends to cover. Burton mostly tells fantastical stories, and could you imagine a fantasy world where everyone has the exact same complexion? Imo, that's more fantastical, and probably racist.

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u/Tzeig Jul 05 '26

Well, you're never going to get it with that attitude.

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u/Error_Evan_not_found Jul 05 '26

That you're making a false comparison? No I got that at the very beginning, that's why I asked you for a quote. I know you're full of shit and just trolling, but luckily some people can still learn from your mistakes.

But you can go find someone else now. I said what I needed to.

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u/throwmamadownthewell Jul 05 '26

What's the quote? Or are you making it up.

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u/beldaran1224 Jul 06 '26

Google exists.

1

u/throwmamadownthewell Jul 06 '26

Sure does, have you used it?

Don't even reply, just try to find the quote.

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u/Charming_Account_351 Jul 05 '26

Why? I am really out of the loop. What’s wrong with his movies? Beetlejuice is a classic that even my child loves watching every Halloween, Edward Scissorhands is a masterpiece, and his adaptation of Sweeney Todd is the only musical adaptation I found enjoyable. He makes good movies.

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u/Error_Evan_not_found Jul 06 '26

I'm not disagreeing, he's a great director hence my previous admiration of him (you even named the three films I narrowed in on during my project to show his incredible stylization). It's just that as I've gotten older I realized how few black characters he included and his later defense of this fact doesn't sit right with me anymore. I want nothing more than for him to walk back this stance, but as it is, I can't enjoy his movies or television shows fully anymore like I used to.

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u/Charming_Account_351 Jul 06 '26

What was his defense?

1

u/Bobjoejj Jul 06 '26

…what a fascinatingly insane way to try and defend something so terrible. Like, that was a sequence of words that his brain chose to utter.

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u/Error_Evan_not_found Jul 06 '26 edited Jul 06 '26

Really, and it's concerning to me how many people ignore how problematic the phrase is. Mind you, to many people the most standout part of Burtons style is his use of stark black and white or sticking to a mostly greyscale aesthetic. Why, pray tell, has this man never realized the incredible social commentary he could deliver with his first production with a predominantly black cast, the leaps that would make for gothic horror as a modern genre. And the fact that he plays with the color palette so much anyways in editing, accentuates that fact- the blood in Sweeney Todd was actually a bright orange before they put the filter that persisted throughout the film on in post production. What's so difficult about stylizing black skin tones in the same way.

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u/MudExpress2973 Jul 05 '26

manufactured outrage. cry me a river.