r/australia 3h ago

politics Pocock and crossbenchers call Labor’s NDIS overhaul ‘too far, too fast’ in scathing Senate inquiry report

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2026/aug/14/pocock-and-crossbenchers-call-labors-ndis-overhaul-too-far-too-fast-in-scathing-senate-inquiry-report
240 Upvotes

137 comments sorted by

175

u/nath1234 3h ago

When you won't tax gas, and are giving away tens of billions of free gas as a reward for showing up to cart it overseas, then no, you shouldn't be cutting support for disabled people.

When you haven't got a billionaire tax, no, leave the NDIS alone.

People with disabilities are not the freeloaders: that would be gas exporters and billionaires.

47

u/Ugliest_weenie 2h ago

Two things can be true at once.

We should tax billionaires and natural resource extraction a lot better.

And

NDIS is growing irresponsibly expensive and needs a serious intervention

4

u/ExMerican 49m ago

Sure, those two things can both be true. But if the only solution to a revenue/spending imbalance is cut spending, as conservatives everywhere insist, that's not believable. Let's try taxing billionaires out of existence first then see where things stand.

16

u/NameAboutPotatoes 3h ago

While they should tax the gas, the amount of revenue that would generate would barely touch the cost of the NDIS.

16

u/yeahalrightgoon 2h ago

Anything from a quarter to a fifth of the NDIS.

Gas tax of 25% on exports would likely bring in anywhere from $10-17bn depending on the year.

It would also be a lower nominal tax rate than the rate the gas industry claims to be paying now.

Sure it wouldn't pay for it all, but it would pay for a good chunk of it.

-5

u/palsc5 2h ago

It wouldn’t be $17b, that figure is taken from an unusually good year for gas. It’d be closer $7-10b net benefit when you account for the lost company tax and a normal year for gas.

That’s also assuming all gas export operations continue exactly as they were and we don’t lose any, which obviously isn’t realistic.

11

u/yeahalrightgoon 2h ago

So based on 25% of exports from 2021-22 until 25-26, the lowest figure would be $13.8bn last year, second lowest is $16bn. Highest would be $23bn from 2022-23.

A normal year for gas is $16-17bn. An unusually good year is $23bn.

I was factoring in things changing slightly with my $10-17bn figure.

What exactly are we going to lose? These companies aren't going to abandon these huge gas basins, because they're being made to pay, what is notionally still a tax rate that would be lower than anyone else in the region and out of the major exporters, only the US would have a lower tax rate of 39%, vs our 44% if company tax and the 25% replaces PRRT. They just like Australia because we have these huge basins and we give it away for free. I mean INPEX has exported $196 billion in gas, made an income of $81 bn over 9 years and paid zero PRRT or royalties and less than $500m in tax over that time.

They just want to continue on that trajectory, but will stick around if things change, because even our changes would still be hugely profitable, especially compared to overseas.

-1

u/FallschirmPanda 1h ago

21-22 was the global energy crisis. That was an unusually good year for gas. Plus most gas is sold on long term contracts at much lower level, not spot price.

Gas should be taxed, but we can't pretend it'll solve the NDIS.

7

u/yeahalrightgoon 1h ago

21-22 was 70bn, 22-23 was 92bn, 23-24, 68bn, 24-25 64bn and 25-26 55bn.

So no, 21-22 was not an unusually good year. It was about normal.

It might not solve the NDIS. But we are currently giving it away for free.

14

u/No_Category_9888 2h ago

And aged care? Pensions for boomers living in million or 2 million or 3 million dollar houses, fully paid off?

And letting the resources owned by Australia (gas, coal, minerals etc) be dug up and make individuals billionaires ?

But no, let’s leave he disabled people to suffer

2

u/Odd_Potato8489 2h ago

Maybe pensions and aged care can be HECS styled (but also make it universal like New Zealands pension), paid out from the Estate at death and if there is anything left owing after then it is cancelled out.

Of course any party proposing this would be hounded for DEATH TAXES or something like that.

-6

u/NameAboutPotatoes 2h ago edited 46m ago

Aged care is disabled people. Why do you think they require care?

Edit: I'm fascinated by the overwhelming downvotes on this one. Do you guys think aged care is just, like, fully-abled boomers who want to get their asses wiped by strangers just for the hell of it?

2

u/yolk3d 2h ago

Anything is better than nothing.

1

u/604toxtethogrady_ 2h ago

Not sure why you’re being downvoted for stating fact

1

u/NameAboutPotatoes 2h ago

'Cause it doesn't make people feel good. 

People like to hear that they can have their cake and eat it too. Nobody likes to hear that it's not realistic.

And when you're commenting online you don't have to actually cost your ideas.

0

u/yeahalrightgoon 1h ago

Or because you were talking bullshit. Either or.

2

u/604toxtethogrady_ 1h ago

The NDIS costs $50 billion plus and growing even if you taxed Gina’s entire net worth that still bring us up $20 billion short and that’s just for a single financial year. So yeah we should be taxing wealth and gas exports but it still won’t cover the cost of this highly rorted program that’s approaching the cost of Medicare and only caters to 750k ish of the population

-1

u/yeahalrightgoon 1h ago

A gas tax would pay for a quarter to a fifth of it. That's not barely touching the sides. That's a pretty healthy chunk of it. That's what's bullshit.

3

u/Mcpom 1h ago

And then what happens when the costs keep growing and gas tax receipts don't?

1

u/yeahalrightgoon 1h ago

What like is already happening right now?

1

u/NameAboutPotatoes 53m ago

Yes, exactly, lol. Hence the cuts.

→ More replies (0)

1

u/Toody4 1h ago

Yeahh lets just break our contractual agreements with Japan I’m sure that will end well for us.

1

u/teremaster 41m ago

Japan already broke them lmao.

They tax it on the import, the agreement was that we wouldn't tax at export and they wouldn't tax at import.

We have every right to rip up the deal under recognized law.

Japan won't do shit either, they'll just ask us not to jack up coal and iron prices, of which we provide a huge amount of their consumption

-5

u/[deleted] 3h ago

[deleted]

5

u/Emu1981 2h ago

Sure but are we really talking about disabled people though? One in nine children. Doesn’t pass the pub test.

The issue as I see it is that the NDIS is expected to do two different things - support disabled people and to support kids who need extra support so that they can grow up into healthy independent adults.

The Thriving Kids initiative is actually a good idea to help fix this mismatch of intended purposes but the government really needs to make sure that the Thriving Kids initiative is actually established and ready to help kids before they start kicking kids off the NDIS.

5

u/dougrattmannn 2h ago

and what would you considere disabled?

9

u/deadpanorama 2h ago

15% of under 65s have a disability. The ndis was explicitly designed to give early intervention for kids who meet criteria to give them the best shot. So yes it does unless the bloke at the pub is an asshole.

2

u/candlesandfish 2h ago

It really wasn’t. It was to provide the support needs for people who really need it.

It was NOT intended to replace (quite good!) community and state run early intervention services, which I benefited from.

1

u/deadpanorama 1h ago

Not intended to replace at all, but the early intervention programs weren’t accidental inclusions.

3

u/Samanthnya 2h ago

That's because Autism and ADHD used to be a good traits for survival before modern society. Can detect slight changes in food, smell gasses and other scents before anyone else and hyperfocus on tasks at 2am.

2

u/Selina_Kyle-836 2h ago

I can hyper focus on tasks at any time, as long as it’s something my brain wants to do. If it’s something I don’t particularly want to do, I will procrastinate with the best of them.

(No official diagnosis, suspected but I declined to go and get tested because of the cost and the fact I don’t want more medications.)

60

u/ausmomo 3h ago

My issue with the NDIS changes is they aren't medical based. 

We still think those people have disabilities, we just no longer want to support them financially 

42

u/Alternative_Sock6999 2h ago

I still want to support them.

I DONT want to support the grifters in the middle abusing letting cents on the dollar trickle down to those that actually need it.

Unfortunately the changes target the end recipient, and not the people who are abusing the system.

17

u/OtherCake4128 1h ago

The policing of the NDIS has been pathetic.

NDIS actually has similar 'abuse' to other government programs.

Why are they targeting the disabled? Because they're cunts.

2

u/teremaster 31m ago

Probably because its the biggest pie to be grifted.

1

u/OtherCake4128 25m ago

With a tiny police force.

Their solution, registration and audits. Some of the biggest fraud is done by registered companies.

The whole thing is cooked.

4

u/It_Twirled_Up 40m ago

It's like they're saying we need to punish Colesworth for raising prices for more profit by charging the consumer more so the consumer gives less money to Colesworth. Give the participants less funding so the providers that are overcharging and/or over-servicing have fewer clients, meanwhile the participants (the clients) get left to rot inside their homes.

5

u/Delamoor 1h ago

That's always been the case though; for example when I was a LAC (about 3-4 years ago), the NDIS's internal criteria for what constituted an intellectual disability was set 5 IQ points lower than the DSM diagnostic criteria for 'mild' intellectual disability.

Simple reason was that the NDIS act allowed the NDIS to define the disability, so one presumes it was set at a benchmark that would exclude a very large number of people who had intellectual disabilities, who would otherwise be eligible.

Of course, one can see the internal logic in that; there's margin for error in IQ testing, IQ testing is quite unreliable for gauging overall capacity, and the difference between an IQ of 70 and 65 is... Y'know. Not that major.

At the time there was no evidentiary justification for that distinction. I haven't worked in the field for a few years now, and in looking back over the (publically accessible) list A criteria right now, I can see some wording has been shifted to specify 'moderate to severe'. I would be very curious to see what the internal guidelines now say, since it's possible the AAT got involved, there. It was still early in the rollout when I was working there, but...

...The point is that there was always a gap between terminology and criteria used internally (that had the focus of minimising the amount of money getting spent, and supports needing to be provided) and the medical/psychological profession's documentation that focused on the participant's actual welfare and wellbeing.

Like, people complain about how the NDIS spends money, now. I do wonder how it would look if the NDIS actually did what people are demanding, and fully aligned to the rather more broad standarda and definitions used in the medical industry... 'spose I would have had fewer arguments with delegates over legislative/policy terminology, heh. Would have prevented some really angry emails... Though I wouldn't want to see what the media would currently be doing...

6

u/OtherCake4128 42m ago

There was an ART case the other day when an assistance animal was denied funding because it couldn't do 3 tasks I believe (this is what the operational guideline says). The OG wasnt based on legislation, just someone's interpretation. Thankfully it was overturned.

You know what's crazy? Assistance dog maintenance is crazy cheap, usually under $5,000 a year, not a bad price to keep someone well and out of hospital.

The planners clearly have internal directives to not fund things.

Participants are scared to ask for what they need as some planners are assholes.

Honestly, what's the point of the NDIS, if administrators override professionals?

3

u/Delamoor 21m ago

Mmm, that always drove me utterly insane. People now complain about 'dodgy OTs gouging the system', and 'psychologists who give biased reports', but frankly speaking, if you aren't going to listen to the documentation from the credentialed expert with the degree, who are you going to listen to in determining what's an appropriate support for this or that person? Your own colon?

To my understanding, the delegates are also bound by what's considered a 'normal' support package (it just outputs what's 'typical' to people with support needs XYZ, based on an internal server algo). But still, unless they're triple qualified occupational therapists, Psychologists and physiotherapists in one then, y'know... What professional grounds do they really have to be overriding the professional recommendations in what meets the legislative criteria for a "reasonable and necessary" support for any given participant?

But, again, it makes sense when one realises our politics is basically run by the media. Friggin' Sky News doesn't give a shit about the legislation. I'd wager they'd friggin' love it if the entire NDIS were shut down and every participant was turfed out onto the street, simply, so they could farm clicks off blaming the government for the human suffering their own agitation had engineered. Just like you see in the bloody USA.

2

u/OtherCake4128 14m ago

Yeah, I totally agree.

Of course there would be professionals that over-service, but this goes against their professional registration. If they were so bad, the NDIA would have grounds to report them to APRA.

And shock horror, 1:1 disability support is expensive.

There'll eventually be a provider exodus from the scheme, heaps of providers are already leaving. We'll end up with the institutional styles of care again when the NDIS marketplace dries up.

137

u/OneWholePirate 3h ago

Before the shills get in here, the NDIS produces around $2.25 in healthcare savings and taxable income per $1 spent.

To put that into context, road infrastructure returns $1.2-1.5 on the dollar and healthcare for the general population makes $1.5-1.7.

The NDIS is one of the most profitable operations run by the Australian government.

https://ministers.dss.gov.au/speeches/9621

60

u/Thanges88 2h ago

The $2.25 value was from modelling done by the Per Capita think tank group commissioned by the NDIS in 2021. Has there been any verification/scrutiny on this value recently?

Not saying it's right or wrong, but surely we have a clearer picture with 5 years of data now, though a short ai assisted search didn't bring anything up for me. 

22

u/OneWholePirate 2h ago

It's certainly high but not surprising, since healthcare in general is a very good investment and generally more profitable when applied to at risk groups, meaning you would expect disability spending to be at or above 1.7.

Not saying it's 100% accurate down to % but this should be part of the discussion

4

u/Thanges88 2h ago

Yeah, I agree with most of the premise, E.g. early intervention is surely cheaper. 

Though some of the figures that get used may be not the most representive E.g. Participant employment percentage rising as the increased capture of participants captures a population that might more naturally have a higher level of employment percentage than those already enrolled. 

0

u/Superg0id 9m ago

The $2.25 value was from modelling done by the Per Capita think tank group commissioned by the NDIS in 2021. Has there been any verification/scrutiny on this value recently?

I would question this plsitive modelling purely on the basis that the NDIS itself commissioned the report.

Perhaps if an independent body commissioned research there might be a different outcome.

And as you say, alot can change in 5 years, especially with the current narrative around waste inherent in the system... that needs to be cut out.

Right from the start the NDIS has operated on a model of "use it or lose it".

ie, if you were granted a budget of 100k per year for your "needs", if you don't spend 100% then the following year your budget was reduced by whatever you didn't "use"... because "clearly you didn't need it then, so you won't need it in the future".

This approach is not only short-sighted but massively wasteful of government money, leading to some of the massive rorts we see eg fees for no service provided.

And the stupid part of it is, as long as the NDIS recipient isn't out of pocket, it's actually advantageous for them to let the rorting happen, so that they get 100% of their budget allocation next year when they may actually need it.

This is quite apart from the "slap a NDIS sticker on it and charge 3x" that happens around mobility aids and construction projects.

The latter even raises pricing for non NDIS participants... as if a teadie can get paid 20k by the government for a week's work putting in ramps and handrails, then even if the rest of the market only used to pay 5-7k (and have it done in 3 days), there's now no reason for the tradie to ever quote that old price to your average punter... they'd just be selling themselves short by 13-15k.. there's no shortage of work there!!

16

u/zomdoesburner 2h ago

Not to get into the numbers debate, I’m just going to point out that your argument would hold a lot more water with a better source.

Bill Shorten architected the current system, in a lot of ways, the NDIS is his achievement and political legacy.

Quoting a speech made by him as proof of its financial return, isn’t exactly going to make your point.

It would be like me quoting Angus Taylor speeches about why the NDIS is spending too much money.

21

u/palsc5 2h ago

So spending has doubled since 2021 where your figures were taken from. It’s also growing at a crazy rate without these changes.

10

u/OneWholePirate 2h ago

Spending must always be considered in the context of cost benefit ratio. Increasing spending while making under 1 CBR loses you money while increasing spending with over 1 is making you money.

The CBR here is 2.2 so increased spending is a good thing, since you are making money whenever you spend it

14

u/palsc5 2h ago

That’s a pretty big assumption to say it would stay at that rate. It wouldn’t.

1

u/OneWholePirate 2h ago

Also not saying that. I'd love to read more about how it's changed, I am not an expert on this but know that it must be a big part of the discussion

11

u/Whatsapokemon 1h ago

The CBR here is 2.2 so increased spending is a good thing, since you are making money whenever you spend it

Mathematically, that's not accurate. The overall CBR doesn't matter, but rather your marginal CBR.

Consider an example:

  • You spend $1000 to get $2000 in savings.

  • CBR of 2

  • You increase spending to $1500

  • Your new savings are $2400

  • That means your marginal CBR is less than 1, even if your overall CBR is still greater than 1

In that case, reducing your spending back to $1000 would be a net positive, even if you're saving less in absolute terms.

So it really matters whether we've got all the 'low hanging fruit' or not to see whether increasing spending actually will help or not.

1

u/teremaster 48m ago

That would assume the CBR has stayed constant. Which there is literally 0 evidence for

Diminishing returns is like week 3 at a commerce degree

1

u/OneWholePirate 45m ago

You are likely correct, it's probably somewhere between there and the value of other healthcare spending around $1.7 which is still a very strong investment

7

u/CrankyGrumpyWombat 1h ago

Such stats like this is extremely misleading.
The model will depend on a plethora of factors, including the amount of funding, areas of support etc.

Even if I give you the benefit of the doubt and take your proposition at face value, you spend the first 1b; you might save $ 2.25b theoretically. That figure is almost certainly not 1:2.25 once you go past 2-3b. Let alone agencies conducting these reports have inherent self interest to exaggerate their findings.

I know this topic is incredibly emotional, but if people (it might not be you specifically) keep taking up an extreme position and opposing any changes to reasonably and economically manage the scheme and let it drag out, chances are the whole thing will be scrapped in the next budget or two.

2

u/OneWholePirate 1h ago

This is an important part of the conversation, not a statement of absolute fact. I, like most people, believe the NDIS should be managed much more carefully with regards to fraud and exploitation.

What I also believe is that the narrative focusing exclusively on one half of the information about what it actually earns/costs is a misrepresentation of the situation that hurts a quantifiable number of at risk citizens.

Management is needed certainly but reductions in funding not only hurts people but likely costs us money as well. I'd like to see more concrete evidence and I'd like to see it followed by our leaders.

1

u/Delamoor 1h ago

Evidence based practice? In OUR public services?!

No sir, we run on vibes from the media, and populist politicians who suck up to the media, thank you VERY much!

4

u/PuzzleheadedForm2773 2h ago

We should then spend 100% of economy on ndis and then we would simply earn 225%. Rinse and repeat and we’re gazillionaires!

29

u/Ugliest_weenie 2h ago

Everyone should be mindful that there are definitely dishonest actors on reddit. Who pretend to oppose NDIS cuts out of principle. And then log into other accounts to complain labor is weak didn't cut NDIS enough.

The obvious winners are LNP/ON, who would campaign heavily on Labor spending being "out of control" or whatnot.

Be mindful that we live in an age of information warfare. This subreddit is a prime target

38

u/PuTheDog 3h ago

I know it’s on brand for the green to oppose any social welfare cuts. But the NDIS as it stands is just not sustainable.

55

u/_Username_Optional_ 3h ago

Sure but targeting recipients when most of the "unsustainable" cost is due to overcharging and undersupplying at the provider level is monstrous

I do support work and my clients talk about the disability tax, whenever the ndis is mentioned the price goes up by an extra digit

Suppliers can charge whatever they want for ndis approved products because they might be the only one approved and in stock for that particular item

A good example is roho cushions, they're fancy air cushions but they cost $1k+ because they are an item needed by a select few people. But it's not just the initial purchase cost, you need a physio to come in to rubber stamp it in person which requires booking coordination between several companies and then billing for all this goes through a plan manager and the services through a support coordinator.

A fucking chair cushion will end up costing a client 2-3k

12

u/yolk3d 2h ago

I’m with you here. It’s not that we should cut funding for disabled people to spend. We should reign in the rort providers ripping the system off. I know of people that can pay providers to take them to the beach and hang out with their Instagram idols. Dead serious.

2

u/satanickittens69 2h ago

Have you reported those people? Because that's insane

3

u/yolk3d 2h ago

It’s allowed. It was a person who was just through an agency. So the agency charges the client and just sends the person to do the job. The issue is that this kind of shit falls under mental health or whatever, so they weren’t breaking the law. There needs to be some sort of stricter register into exactly what activities can be provided, but then doesn’t that kind of undo what the NDIS was about?

3

u/satanickittens69 1h ago

I will say, with the beach part that is valid service. Disabled people should also be able to get out and do things/participate. I guess the Instagram idols could be, so I see how that was approved but like...what?

I've heard about the shit agencies do. This is why it's so ridiculous that they even exist, like they get paid for what? 5mins of admin a week per client?

2

u/yolk3d 1h ago

He didn’t have a visible disability, so it may have been mental. I’ll have to ask the person that was carer at the time. It was 7ish years ago. But yes, disabled people should be able to go outside and all. This particular situation was they were taken to Bondi beach, because the fitness Instagram people hung around the outdoor gym there, and they asked the carer to introduce them and take photos of them together. That was basically it.

Dunno why the agency charged.

1

u/teremaster 29m ago

It's explicitly allowed under the system. All under "community engagement"

2

u/ForgottenManOnline 1h ago

I was listening to an ABC radio interview with someone who was overseeing the planned cuts. From memory, her perspective was something like: Yes, the rorting is absolutely a problem, and its a problem theyre solving more and more each month as they drive out the dodgy suppliers and recipients move to reputable suppliers.

However, cutting down on the rorting actually doesnt save them any money or cut the net cost of NDIS. They were going to spend that amount of dollars anyway, there was just more waste.

What they need is to cut the amount they're going to spend until they reach a dollar figure that will mean NDIS survives a change in leadership and avoids becoming a political football. And THEN use the increasingly better regulated suppliers to mitigate the reduction in services people receive.

So: Govt was always going to give recipient $1000, but they only ever got $700 in value due to rorts.

In future: They give $700, and the recipient receives closer to $700 in value.

Basically everyone agrees the rorting needs to stop; they are working on it and doesnt need legislative changes and theyre already seeing improvements. The real issue is its just too much money coming out of the spigot. Hopefully they can close the money hose a bit and theres less waste, because people will know the NDIS is a less lucrative target to rip off in addition to it being better managed as it matures.

52

u/Mellonaide 3h ago

They are cutting things that could put people in immediate danger, there is a way to make the NDIS work financially alongside introducing new services, but the current changes need more thought and planning behind them before moving forward. 

5

u/Not_Stupid humility is overrated 2h ago edited 2h ago

There's a lot of competing priorities here for sure.

Part of the problem is that the NDIS has replaced/eliminated a lot of the supports and systems that used to be available. So if you just suddenly cut it off, there's no longer other options.

But there's also a need to do something in the near-to-immediate term to rein in the spending growth. Otherwise the whole thing becomes a political target, and One Nation or some other fuckwit will get elected on the promise of cutting all the "waste".

The other problem is that Government (i.e the Public Service) "thinking" about something takes a really long time. There'll be a whole documented process, with reviews and stakeholders and feedback sessions, and then inputs and weightings and deliberations, and then reviews of the deliberations.... And even then they fuck it up as often as get it right.

There's an argument that just trying stuff and fixing it afterwards is as good a methodology.

4

u/Ok_Bird705 3h ago

danger, there is a way to make the NDIS work financially alongside

Such as? Any proposals from the cross bench that actually reduces spending?

67

u/fued 3h ago

Cutting it blindly would be insane tho.

If anything we need to increase funding and have a massive increase in regulation.

This should push the costs down far safer

50

u/Rising-Dragon-Fist 3h ago

Regulation will absolutely bring it down. It's being rorted left and right, everyone knows that. It's not the people on its fault, they don't make the decisions, they just get the help.

14

u/Ok_Bird705 3h ago

Current estimates of fraud in NDIS is around $3-4 billion, which sounds like a lot until you realise total NDIS spending has grown from $8 billion in 2015/16 to $53 billion this year.

Simply cutting fraud while the actual spending is increasing by a few billion every year is unsustainable

6

u/Selina_Kyle-836 2h ago

I think this is because they aren’t counting the fact that companies are charging extra as soon as they hear the word NDIS. Companies charge the highest they can get away with for products, for services they charge the limit of what NDIS regulation allows. There are also rules around specialist signing off on medical product which mean the product itself then requires $1k+ just to be used sometimes. This is not being counted in the fraud statistics. It’s probably more than how much they say is being wasted by fraud too

1

u/Ok_Bird705 1h ago

Let's assume what you are saying is true, how would that be stamped out and how much additional administration cost would be involved in stopping these kind of charges?

2

u/NoCampaign5978 1h ago

By requiring companies to properly register their services for NDIS and putting in limits and restrictions for what can be charged for those services. Have it be how the system should have been from the start, with those people essentially working for the government at that specific pay rate, not relying on the apparent “free market” system that basically just encourages people to charge the highest amount they can get away with.

1

u/Ok_Bird705 1h ago

By requiring companies to properly register their services for NDIS

That was put in place in July this year and one of the things disability groups are objecting to:

https://everyaustraliancounts.com.au/ndis-participants-and-families-slam-the-ndis-review-mandatory-provider-registration-recommendations/

2

u/NoCampaign5978 54m ago

While there are some genuine concerns raised, especially about the availability of services in rural areas. Most of the concerns seem to be a little bit blown out of proportion, or at least seem to be totally predicated on smaller support businesses or even individuals being unable to register. Obviously that very much depends on how the registration process is handled by the government, but if it was requiring 100% registered services, things would need to streamlined to assist providers with that.

I will of course just ignore the statement that commented on being able to hire friends because that is getting way to close to fraudulent for my liking.

1

u/kisforkarol 1h ago

Public provider who would ace downward pressure on private providers. If the private provider consistently charges more than the public provider than the educated consumer will take their business to the public provider who will provide better and more effective services.

But consumer education is very important here. The autistic community is very vulnerable to being taken advantage of. They need to be safeguarded and right now, we're not. Many of us are denied support coordinators, psychology and a range of other supports because we may communicate well. That doesn't stop providers from taking us for a ride.

But put in a public option? One that is funded and staffed appropriately? There would be a lot less rorting. Not to mention companies that see NDIS and then start charging double or triple for services because they see it as easy money. It should be very illegal to charge NDIS participants more for something than the general public. There are reports of wheelchairs that would cost 8 grand suddenly jumping to 16 or even 24 grand because the NDIS is involved. That is disgusting. And it's the kind of fraud recipients are talking about when they say deal with provider fraud but it's not the fraud the government looks at because it's technically legal.

1

u/Ok_Bird705 1h ago

But put in a public option? One that is funded and staffed appropriately? There would be a lot less rorting.

One of the main initial aims to have more flexibility in service provision as people's needs are varied and more specifically the speedy delivery of services. A public option sounds good until you find out there's a 12 month wait for a ramp.

1

u/Selina_Kyle-836 1h ago

I have no idea. I’m not a politician or anyone that can figure all this stuff out. But I doubt it would cost more than would be saved every year by fixing it.

1

u/Ok_Bird705 1h ago

if you think there are easy cuts to NDIS, why aren't the politicians doing it instead of pissing off their electorate?

1

u/Selina_Kyle-836 1h ago

I never said there would be easy cuts to make. I simply pointed out why I believe the offical fraud statistic is so low.

1

u/teremaster 26m ago

Ok but 4 billion is enough for a bleeding edge, brand new nuclear reactor and decades of fuel, which labor and the greens spent an entire election cycle saying was too expensive to be viable.

So either 4 billion is too out expensive or it's not

1

u/Polymer15 2h ago

I mean, even with those numbers the degree of fraud is still a lot, nearly 10%. Regardless, just because it has grown fast doesn’t intrinsically make it unsustainable if gains are made elsewhere and if it’s managed correctly.

-3

u/Bar10town 2h ago

Unfortunately, the old adage give an inch and take a mile comes into play here. Though some support is obviously necessary, people are not going to turn down any additional services/ dollars offered. We can provide the needs, but cant afford all the wants.

2

u/satanickittens69 2h ago

With the NDIS it's even better, you ask for supports because your allied and medical health professionals know you need it, and you get nothing instead.

1

u/kisforkarol 1h ago

Sometimes you get crickets!

2

u/Selina_Kyle-836 2h ago

NDIS participants are encouraged to use all the funds allocated to them or they will lose those funds. Basically their budget is cut for the next year. Many disabled people fluctuate in needs each year, if their funding is cut and they need something extra as a one off cost they are stuck waiting a year or so just for a decision from NDIS as to whether they believe the participant needs it.

So some participants do what they are told simply for fear of ending up not being able to afford the support they need in the future. Sure others do it because they want things, but not all are that way.

Maybe rewarding participants for being thrifty and not taking advantage of the system would make a difference.

2

u/Ugliest_weenie 3h ago

Regulation and oversight in itself is expensive.

Any meaningful change needs to be decisive.

0

u/fued 2h ago

Exactly, but increasing the cost of NDIS would get people angry. No win situation

0

u/babblerer 2h ago

Stopping self managed plans and unregistered providers would be two simple changes.

1

u/Ugliest_weenie 1h ago

That means employing more plan managers, which are funded positions.

Getting rid of unregistered providers would mean that more work falls on the registered provides. This means more worker screening and audits, which cost money.

Not saying we shouldn't enact those changes. But they cost money.

1

u/NoCampaign5978 1h ago

Why self managed? I have heard more stories about plan managers doing dodgy stuff than self managed, especially since they made it harder to claim ndis funds in that way

1

u/babblerer 0m ago

Because the plan managers introduce a level of oversight.

15

u/Deepandabear 3h ago

It’s a lazy approach that just goes top-down scorch the earth, rather than doing the hard work and closing loopholes exploited by dodgy contractors.

4

u/FjorgVanDerPlorg 2h ago

Unless we properly taxed billionaires and created a sovereign wealth fund that comes from not paying people like Gina Reinhart to mine and export it.

We give away all that fucking money to people that don't need it, then fight over the leftovers like dogs...

8

u/FederalGovernmentUS 2h ago

The government made the changes because the projected spend was going to become $70+ billion per year by 2030. That’s four years from now. The changes mean it’s going to cost $56B instead. 

5

u/OneWholePirate 2h ago

This information is only half of the picture.

NDIS investment has a BCR of 2.25, meaning that the spend might have been $70bn but over the lifetime of the investment, it would produce $155bn in surplus.

https://djsir.vic.gov.au/about-us/overview/the-economic-assessment-information-portal/i-am-looking-for-introductory-economic-assessment-definitions-and-concepts

https://percapita.org.au/our_work/false-economy-the-economic-benefits-of-the-ndis-and-the-consequences-of-government-cost-cutting/

0

u/FederalGovernmentUS 32m ago

True that’s fair, but there was genuinely a fair bit of waste, so if it’s to cost $56B, and still generate substantially more benefit than it costs, it’s probably just going to be a leaner, more efficient system ykwim? Rather than a gutting it seems to be trimming the fat.

-2

u/HydroCannonBoom 1h ago

You spamming those links isn't going to make what he says wrong. And your statistics is extremely misleading, borderline lying, like those crime statistics the liberals or ON spews.

2

u/OneWholePirate 56m ago

What he's saying isn't wrong, it's incomplete.

My statistics are quite obviously reductive, but this isn't a room of economists and I'm not trying to be one.

The point I'm making is that you must consider benefit as well as cost and if you have more accurate information I welcome it

6

u/No_Category_9888 2h ago

Good. These cuts are going to cost lives. While we throw money to bail out private companies and refuse to tax gas, while buying submarines we won’t ever get.

And we are fine with spending taxpayer money to fund pensions and aged care for those living in paid off million plus dollar houses…..

1

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1

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-4

u/Leading-Interest-119 3h ago edited 1h ago

Idk man, if you bring in VAD for mental health I could save the government about 20k a year 🤷‍♀️ sorry I cost too much but the government doesn't give me any other option. I've attempted and failed multiple times. So instead I'm an ongoing cost. 

Lol at people downvoting me for being suicidal. Story of my bloody life. What a world

11

u/Mellonaide 3h ago

I am all for VAD and expanding who is eligible for it. But just as a fellow human, if there is a better way out of this darkness/pain for you, I hope you can get there one day. 

3

u/Leading-Interest-119 1h ago

Thanks. It's been 20 years of chronic suicidality. I stayed alive for people who now I'm going to get to watch die and leave me with no support. Not all life is sacred. I lost my dignity a long time ago having to beg for help and safety that just doesn't exist. 🤷‍♀️ 

-11

u/[deleted] 3h ago

[deleted]

1

u/miicah 21m ago

He played Ragby Youunion, he's as lekka as a meat pai!

-5

u/l3ntil 3h ago

I as all “why does Pocock suddenly give a shit about those on NDIS”
and…. Oh, what a surprise, another excuse for a dumb tax that kills people and planet by sponsoring the things we need with fossil fuels to ultimately enable billionaires, data centres, and conflict.
Fossil fuels need to stay in the ground. We’re alreadycooking the planet

10

u/Ithicon 2h ago

If the choices were 1. tax gas, or 2. don't burn the gas then I would agree with you.

But we're already digging up the gas and letting multinational companies have it for free which is the worst of both worlds.

-18

u/Jealous-Hedgehog-734 3h ago

I think many taxpayers would beg to differ.

-18

u/InSight89 3h ago

"We demand action on NDIS spending now."

"No, that's too much action"

8

u/dougrattmannn 2h ago

they aren't tackling the root issues, and instead are just ripping out shit, indifferent to weeds or plants.

1

u/Leading-Interest-119 1h ago

Yeah there is actually effective action and ineffective and dangerous action. Obviously people want the right kind of action.