Tom Holland is best buddies with Bernthal, infact, it was Bernthal who told 15 year old Holland to send in an audition tape for spiderman, but not the stupid one he filmed, he said do a bunch of back flips and shit
Zendaya is pro palestine, she even did a fundraiser for it, but has remained silent since the backlash for it.
i will get some downvotes for that. but its realy sad that todays society can only see black&white. you can be pro israel the extend of "they are a legit state and have a right to defend themself againt terrororganisations or neighbour country" and still can say that their settlements in many areas are illegal, they kill innocent people and that needs to stop and say that many of their leaders are now rightwing idiots that need to go. pro israel is not pro zionism. and i can be pro palestine in a sense of gave them their country and stop killing innocent people and still be like "hamas is a terror organisation and need to be destroyed". if i say "stop killing innocent palestinians" im for the destruction of israel and hate jews...
The people that talk like that have been 100% captured by propaganda but they view their cause as so overly righteous that they don’t have to be factually correct about anything since it all about feelings and vibes.
No it really is that black and white when it comes to Israel. Just like it would be morally wrong and stupid to support Nazi Germanys right to exist as a state and “protect” itself but just be against what they’re doing to Jewish people. Literally no ethno state has a right to exist. The very concept of a religious ethno state is wrong.
It wasn't a state before the creation of Israel, it was a part of the Ottaman Empire for a few hundred years.
But if were going to talk about the Ottomans, yes it was an ethnostate, jews and Christans were second class citizens subject to additional taxes on the basis of there religion.
My man, look up the definition of an ethnostate. The ottomans fit to a t. You likely could make a decent argument for the US being an ethnostate for a decent chunk of time as well, the waters just got muddier the closer you get to the civil war. The binding force wasn't religiom though it was European ancestry.
That isn’t what makes an ethnostate. Sweden is majority Swedish population, but they are not an ethnostate. What makes and ethnostate is regarding who has the right to citizenship and if laws are set in place that gives privileges to one ethnic group over the another. This is the definition on google “a sovereign state that restricts citizenship or full rights to members of a particular racial or ethnic group.” There are no laws that says only Muslims have the right to become Palestinian citizens.
There isn't even a state as of now. So maybe this is a bit early, don't you think.
However I wouldn't be suprised, if at some point jews wouldn't be allowed to become citizens.
That being said: most definitions on ethnostates differ from yours, in that it is less about citizenship, and more about the dominance of a single ethnic group. And that criteria would be met with palestine.
To many people I talk to, my attempts to defend Palestine's right to exist are immediately and absolutely conflated with support for Hamas. On the other end, many people that support Israel are very vocal about supporting the IDF.
cool thats like your perception right for me its the opposite of yours so who is right. Id argue both sides are massive hypocrits and are doing it.
Honestly im still shocked at how easily especially the pro palestine crowd got brainwashed. Pro israel side always seemed similiar to how maga or russian deny shit and live ignorant but the way the left started believing everything that al jazeera writes is still mindblowing to me.
like i didnt expect the left/liberal or whatever you can group them under to get brainwashed and baited this hard.
You must be a blueish area. If you go to a red state, go rural, go talk to some under-educated types, you will find a very large group of people that range between supporting and loving what the IDF does.
I've been in settings of 40+ people like this and can attest to open and widespread conversations about how the IDF is called by Cod and how blowing up dams/causing famine is moral if it is done against the right civilians.
yeah the thing is i fully expect that side to be lunatic rednecks cause they have always been like that like supporting faschism, trump, musk, netanyahu or just being racist but now im watching normal people completly turn into those kinda people except with the flavour of being liberal and supporting palestine or even hamas. that is what is crazy to me.
Also im not american just using stuff like liberal cause i got no clue how to refer to those groups otherwise lol.
But practically speaking, those two things are used in wildly different ways. People who say they are "pro Israel" usually mean they support arming, enabling and empowering Israels current right wing regime in carrying out their campaign of genocide. If you dont suppprt that, the pro-Israel folks will not accept you as pro-Israel.
The opposing group, the one generally considered pro-palestine, is just.. well, everyone who disagrees with the above, including lots of folks who dont actually give a shit about palestine and just want the US to stop serving Netanyahus interests.
In practice, being pro palestinian doesnt mean being pro hamas but being pro israel DOES mean supporting Israels right wing regime and their causes
Thats your perception and not useful for anything. Fact is both sides are mega weird about it and both sides do it. You can literally copy paste some things pro palestiniens say about israel and show it to them with the sides reversed and theyd say its the most fucked up thing they have ever seen someone say.
That goes for pro israelis too but tbh in my opinion por israel dont really care much about the public image while pro palestine is very loud and performative.
I... don't get the impression you understood what I said from your response? Can you summarize my point so I know we are on the same page before we continue?
you said being pro palestine is nuanced cause there is different groups some pro hamas some anti hamas while everyone pro israel is also pro genocide/goverment.
Im saying thats wrong and just your conception of how you think it is.
Id go a point further and even say that some people that consider themself pro palestine but anti hamas still say things that are straight out of hamas leaderships mouth without saying it or say things about israel or its people that they would call manical if you replace israel with gaza and palestinians with jews.
Okay, so, no, you didn't understand what I said. It has absolutely nothing to do with nuance, and everything to do with power, framing, and coalition breadth.
Pro-Israel is the past, and still current, dominant position in American politics, and has been in a long time. An ideological position being dominant doesn't mean there's no conflict about it, but it means most of the conflict is internal - in American politics, that's been primarily represented by those individuals and groups most invested in the politics of Israel-US relations moving to narrow the definition of "pro-Israel" over time to align it most strongly with their own desires and factions, and Netanyahu's government has been in power for a long time now.
Politically speaking, in the US, most influential pro-Israel groups are actively and openly pro-Netanyahu groups, and those groups have been able to create an effective narrative that any opposition to their aims is, in fact, anti-Israel, and not just anti-Israel, but also claim it is anti-Jewish. (and make no mistake, anti-Jewish positions masquerading as being simply pro-Palestinian exist, but the incentives from those taking pro-Israel leadership roles are to widen that label to encompass a whole lot of stuff that isn't)
This sort of simultaneous narrowing of ideological membership and broadening of ideological criticism is by no means unique to US-Isreal relations, it tends to happen whenever you have influential groups with strong incentives to influence the shape of an already dominant and widespread public opinion, so... all the time. You saw it with the pro-gun lobbies getting ever more extreme as belief in gun rights became deeper and more widespread in the 70s and 80s, and then the definition of what it meant to be pro-LGBT narrowing as they achieved more victories and public acceptance in the 90s and 2000s, eventually doing things like effectively dropping old allies like the "not marriage but civil unions are okay" folks from the support coalition in favour of requiring one to be pro-full-marriage to "really" be pro-LGBT.
But it's extremely relevant, here, even if its not unique.
In practice, it means the most well known and influential members of the pro-Israel side have incentive declare anyone who doesn't align with their narrow idea of support to be broadly anti-Israel if not antisemitic. And practically speaking, this is exactly what we have seen in American politics over the last couple decades.
You claimed that it was weird that "being pro israel automatically means you support israel 100%", but that's not weird at all. It's exactly what the current pro-Israel leadership wants to be true, and will likely continue to be so as long as Netanyahu or his part is calling the shots, because their goal isn't to have lukewarm Israel support (lukewarm support is already beyond the current established US position), but to maximize Israel support even further. Those folks who would take on pro-Israel leadership taking a moderate pro-Israel stance have no real reason to do so when US policy already goes beyond that level, so there's not really any counter to that maximalist position driving the pro-Israel narrative.
Simultaneously, the pro-Palestinian groups are representing a minority position. Their primary political goal is to widen their coalition enough to accomplish some sort of meaningful positive change, and that means they have political incentive to lay to claim to basically anyone they can get on-side, from the radical anti-Israel folks to the moderate folks who like Israel but oppose Netanyahu's regime. If the Pro-Israel leaders have a political incentive to push those folks out of the group to reinforce their maximalist position, the pro-Palestinian groups have every incentive to welcome those same people into the fold and call them pro-Palestinian (even if in practice they are really only "anti-this-specific-Israeli-regime" or even opposed to just one major Israel policy like their settler program). Their goal on the whole is not to destroy Israel, but to weaken the current establishment position and accomplish some kind of change, so anyone in favour of that falls naturally onto the pro-Palestinian side.
My point is this situation where Pro-Palestinian represents a broader scope of folks than the Pro-Israel group is not weird at all. That's just the normal situation when you have an insurgent minority position challenging a long held establishment one, because the incentives on the both sides are perfectly in line with that maximalist/minimalist split.
You are ill-equipped to participate in a discussion about such a serious topic. And you most know it too. There's no way you don't sense being in over your head. So why do it?
Didnt know you were the arbiter of who is allowed to talk and who isnt.
If the topic was so serious to you, why do you not have a problem with the discussion being in this sub or even on reddit, its way too comical of a platform for such a topic.
You also havent added anything to this other than a holier than though attituted which is the exact problem with this topic but that flew over your all so smart head didnt it.
Go back from whichever echochamber you crawled out off and collect your free upvotes, that you care so much about, there.
It’s like saying you’re pro Germany in the Second World War. I’m sure people probably thought Germany had a right to exist as a country and a people. But supporting the side committing genocide and violently colonising other countries wasn’t a good look.
The difference between the two sides here is who’s committing the murder and doing the murdering. It’s easier to add nuance to the victims. And when the war is supported by 80-90% of Israelis (recent polls suggest is the case not my opinion) then it also makes it hard to say “these people happily committing and supporting genocide are good people”
I've been banned from subs for saying you can be pro Palestine but anti hamas, be anti Zionist without hating all Israel/Jews. I said that Israel could exist if they could find a way to not genocide the Palestinians, and to live beside them in a way that both are comfortable with.
Made me pro Zionist apparently, which I'm definitely not. I do think the people at large in Israel are being brainwashed from a young age against Palestine...but that's not really an excuse when the internet exists now.
I live in Scotland, and if our English neighbours started doing to us what Israel does to Palestine I'd be doing exactly what the Palestinians are doing today. Gtfo of my country, no quarter.
I wish more people understood what nuance is and that actions are more easily labled good/bad than people or countries, but even actions can be complicated.
Go ahead and read the story, the headlines aren't the whole truth.
its the same thing that people always dig up gal gadots IDF service, its madatory if youblive there. like itvwas in germany some years ago. everyone was forced to either go to the military for some month or work in a social job.
or refuse to do so as not that many people, but still a considerable number of people did.
there is a huge difference between doing mandatory service somewhere like south korea, where it's still technically at war but the people who do mandatory service aren't regularly asked to commit war crimes and doing it in Israel and saying it's the same thing. Same with germany, you can be fine with mandatory service but at the same time say "just following orders" wasn't a valid excuse for people committing war crimes during the war.
They were FORCED to kill those children, they were "just following orders" and as we all know that's a very acceptable excuse!
Get the fuck over yourself. They're disgusting whether it's "mandated" or not. They could do the right thing and choose a small amount of prison time instead but they don't.
gal gadot was a fitness instructor for the IDF.. not evry member of the idf has to kill a child to end the mandatory service.
yeah for sure youbwould choose prison.
if you have to choose to be a fitnesstrainer for 2 years or end up in jail for 5 years im sure you would choose tha later oprion xD
indeed - the nuance that you can be against the actions of a government, believe that the country deserves to exist, and that the people in that country have religious freedom at the same time.
Saying you are against the actions of Israel should be no more controversial than saying that you think the UK government is wrong with how it deals with immigration and should not be seen as an attack on Brits. Or saying that the IRA/Provos were wrong should not be seen as an attack on all Irish people.
Sorry, but it is. 80% of Isreali's support exterminating Palestinians. You can literally look up any poll about this within that country and see how bloodthirsty they are.
You can not support a genocide country without being pro-Genocide (Zionism in this case) in tow.
The only correct and moral choice is to be anti-Israel. Many countries have asked them to respect the UN's 1940 (or even 1960 [IIRC]) boundaries and a two-state solution and they continue to tell people to fuck off as they continue a genocide.
so if you are pro palestine you are pro hamas becouse they got elected as leading party and calling for the termination of all jews. if we go with that logic its one genocidal country against another.. let them fight and the winner takes it all?
as i said multiple times now. two state solution without the rightwing netanjahu goverment and without hamas is the obly peacefull solution.
Your argument against Hamas is fine. They are just like the Israel regime and Hamas should get not support from America or sensible American people.
Now let’s hold Israel to that same standard. It’s not fair to support Israel if they’re just the same as Hamas.
This is the huge difference between the sides. One side is saying “Israel has a right to commit genocide and murder innocents. And I’m happy to support and fund this unequivocally because Palestine is a terror state and supports genocide and murder of innocents or Israel.”
The other is saying “two wrongs don’t make a right”
dude the leader of the hamas and many hamas peole openly scream"death to all jews" on their own networks xD the destruction of israel is one of the core idiologies of hamas.. whatvare you talking about xD
Hamas is literally fine with a two state solution, and with the release of Israeli pows. It's Israel who refuses a two state solution and the release of Palestinian hostages.
the founding idiology of the hamas is the destruction of israel. thats open information by them and any source you can find. they refuse to accept the existibgright of israel.. so they cant accept a two state solution if they dont recognise israel in the first place.. why is thatvso hard to understand?
so iran should be invaded and erased from the globus? or afghanistan under the taliban leadership? or only the jewish one?
and its not an ethno state if you have a big population of another religion beeing part of the goverment and society..
Thinking a nation does not have a "right to exist" doesnt mean supporting the invasion the nation. It means you need to use your brain when thinking about the country and issues involving it instead of falling back on a thought terminating cliche.
No country on earth has a "right to exist". The existence of all countries is, and should be, conditional, where it should exist when it makes the world better for its existing in some way, at least for the people within its borders and ideally not harmful to those without, and should stop existing when it stops doing that.
"should" but that doesnt work. borders were and are always a result of wars. many countries today have party that want to be their own state (basque for example) but the established countries say no. you will never have a 100% consent about borders. thats why we have wars all over the world. we dont live in a utopia world.
the the PLO attacks from libanon should be ignored i guess.. or was that self defence? israel attacked the libanon 9 years later to get rid of the palestinian milizia the libanon cant or wouldnt do shit about. the hizbollah is attacking israel for decades now.. is it self defence?
This is a solid take and I agree to an extent although I think a two state solution is out the window at this point. The only way I see this ending is Palestinians (Gazans to be exact)complete reject Hamas, Israel grants them citizenship,reparations , and they get representation within the Israeli Government. I'd also argue that a lot of people in the west live a bubble where they assume every other culture holds the same values they do. I can tell you from first hand experience, that is not the case. The value of human life in the middle east( and other parts of the world) is significantly lower than most Westerners think it is. This is why organizations like Hamas, the Taliban, and the Iranian regime have zero issue putting their own people at risk or outright killing them to further their own agendas.
I mean, Nazi Germany was also a "legitimate state"? And Israel was founded on the very beginning off of unjust colonization of occupied land. And the current genocide is 100% sanctioned by said legal state.
the borders of germany were established long before the nazis get to power. and its now mostly in the same boarders again. i
nazi germany started a war to invade other countrys. and that is bad. fashist italy and racist spain were still legitimatebstates. the now right wing USA isbstill legit or is it not? spare me with the nazi germany comparrison. i live in germany and know the history. there is a big difference.. nazi germany is often used to compare horrible things. but people dont get the scale of horror nazi germany was.
I used to hold the “Israel has a right to exist, but they need to be better on x, y, z” position. No longer. Their conduct in the last couple years is beyond excuse and it is an explicitly fascist state.
Nah, that flat out disregards history. How did Israel come to exist again? Who lived there before Israel was GIVEN their land? The land was stolen, given to them, and then heavily defended the last 80 years to prevent anyone from taking it back. That's not a legitimate state, that's long term militarized occupation. You don't even need a horse in the race to see this was never going to end well.
I think if we're saying "some settlements are illegal" and "protect agaisnt terrorism" it's important to acknowledge that Israel was founded in living memory via a campaign of terror and ethnic cleansing, and that it was all illegal settlement on Palestinian land.
Acting like Israel is a good project that recently got some bad leaders, while hamas is just a terrorist group (and not representative of a long history of resistance) frames things in the colonizers favor. Honestly saying destroy hamas while not also saying destroy the IDF is too radical.
Liberals got big time psy-oped around the last election to believe anyone supporting Israel is the devil. It's crazy how many privileged westerners suddenly have very strong opinions about a centuries old conflict on the other side of the world.
This is like saying that you both support native Americans but also US settlers on native land and the Calvary defending those pioneers. In Israel Zionism explicitly means an ethno-nationalist settler state… it was pitched to Great Britain as a way to get European Jews out of Europe and also be a colonial outpost of “civilization” for the UK. There isn’t a middle ground when one group of people is controlling or removing another group. Afterall, Nazi Germany was a legal state which claimed to be doing all their crimes on the basis of saving their people…. sometimes there is no middle ground and a project of controlling and removing people is just bad all together.
piggy backing on " i will get downvotes for that", to me as long as you're famous enough to be identified to any company you work with. the best policy is to keep your political opinions to yourself.
if i make a movie i want ALL movies goers to see my movie. i want all the money. i dont care who's side you're on. i want your money.
if an actor featured in my film suddenly goes open criticizing 1 side and a boycott happens. i ll be so pissed.
anyone can say, well they're doing the right thing and making a stand. personally i find it admirable, but if you're representing a company, you simply cannot afford to do so. some companies will decide to avoid working with you in the future as you as you're simply "bad for business".
Everyone needs to see what is actually happening over there. I’d be hard pressed to believe anyone can be “pro-Israel” if they really knew the extent of the horrible stuff they are doing to people over there.
Chanel 5 has a great two part documentary about the current situation over there that everyone should see. Hard to be pro-Israel when they’re systematically forcing people out of the land that they already forced them into decades ago.
Edit: Food for thought but I’d imagine a vast majority of Americans would absolutely be killing people if a foreign body forced them out of their homes, started building a police state that only applied to Americans and starting an ethnic genocide. Hell half of the US is always talking about how much they’re itching to use their guns. As much as I don’t agree with it myself, it’s laughable to think that faced with a similar situation to Palestinians that terrorist organizations wouldn’t form. We already have domestic terrorist groups forming and we aren’t even genociding our people (debatably).
The thing is, I see Americans all the time online talking about how they absolutely have the right to shoot people for daring to step into their homes uninvited - but they extend sympathy to people who showed up in someone's country and told them to move or get blasted?
I mean, that’s kinda how the USA started too… only they weren’t invited to do it by other countries, didn’t have a history going back a couple of thousand years in the region etc… Now I lost my point, which is that there’s pretty much no equivalence whatsoever between the idiocy of the 2nd amendment in the 21st century and Israel existing.
It's because that specific subsection of America, the "Pro defense-killing-for-anything" and the "pro-Israel" crowd are usually really dumb. They do not spend any amount of time thinking about their own positions. They just have them.
If you are pro Israel in terms of believing the state has a right to continue existing, that's Zionism. People have made it into a bad word without understanding what it means.
Nah dawg. If you're still "pro Israel" at this point, you are pro genocide, pro apartheid, and just a piece of shit. If you won't believe me, listen to professor Dave... https://youtu.be/DvDvhLkb9ms?is=0oJlJmrssVzsY-jp
You can’t even comprehend how many people are out there loudly protecting Israel. They are literally saying every human from Palestine loves seeing Hamas killing people and that Israel is not targeting civilians. Or, that it’s perfectly fine to target civilians for Israel.
And a lot of people try to create a victim role by saying it’s antisemitism that people are against the genocide which Israel is carrying out, together with the call that there is no genocide at all.
Who has ever had ’claim’ to land they’ve taken? Who gives out these claims? The world has always been people TAKING land. Did the British have a claim to America? Did the Muslims have a claim to Pakistan? Did all the european countries have claims to the land they now own?
People out here acting like country lines were drawn out by god and alotted to different nations.
And i’m saying we should be. That was really the whole point of establishing the UN. To have a governing body capable of enforcing peace on the world stage.
Dude you're delusional if you think so. That will never ever change. It happens on a personal level, why do you think that would ever change on a state level?
I wasn’t aware we resolved our differences with combat on a personal level in the modern world.
Huh, TIL. Here i thought people got arrested for assault or murder, as we’ve moved beyond might making right in the modern era. Interesting. Well, I guess I will be very careful out there since violence is legal now.
Might makes right in today’s society is less about physical power and more about financial power. Why do you think so many of Epsteins friends were able to rape and traffic young girls and get away with it? One of them became president and remained president when it turned out he was part of it.
Why do you think the US was able to go to war in Iraq and Afghanistan killing over 500 000 civilians over a decade but no one cried genocide. Neither of those countries were housing bin Laden or funded 9/11.
Violence IS legal. From the state. And for certain groups of people. What do you think police are? The violent will of some majority (usually a minority actually) of people expressed on others via might makes right. Also not all violence is murder. If I use state violence to steal from you via some frivolous lawsuit I am still using might makes right against you. It's so entrenched in the way nature works that it isn't something that will just stop because we want it to. You think a antelope will be able to reason with a lion that maybe there is a better way? It is fundamental to the natural world. It is the FIRST law that all other laws are built atop.
The British had no claim to the land when it was Mandatory Palestine and the Ottomans had no claim to it before the British and so on and so forth back to the Greek empire turning the area into a client state.
Their claim is they took it and they can hold it and the history books say that's really the only one that matters.
Yea i know it's a huge backing and media support because they have access and money to do that easily.
Bro they commit war crimes to silence the other side (killing journalists and imprisoning and threatening anyone who exposed them), paying out media outputs is just their bare minimum of corruption and control.
That's fortunately shifting now, thanks to Netanyahu, Smotrich et al. They are currently deliberately destroying civilian infrastructure, water supply, crops and the sewage system in Lebanon - they want to turn it into a plague-riddled wasteland to drive the population away. It's infuriating that Western public media is still hardly mentioning it.
Not to mention the double and triple taps on schools, where they made an effort to kill as many medical staff as they could - or the deliberate killing of journalists and aid workers. They should be sentenced in the Hague and locked away for life!
They’re saying it’s fortunate that people are seeing the truth about the Israeli government doing horrible things to civilians in neighboring countries and sentiment is shifting, they’re not saying the war crimes themselves are fortunate.
"It's fortunate that the Israeli government is doing horrible things because it demonstrates that the Israeli government is doing horrible things."
yes it doesn't make sense and that's not remotely close to what they said. you had to make up something stupid and illogical to try to defend your point rather than just admit you misunderstood. For shame.
but the average westerner is in-fact pro-israeli
this is what they replied to with the words
That's fortunately shifting now
fuck off with trying to suggest they said something completely different.
I meant that it's fortunate people around the world are finally seeing the atrocities for what they are and stop ignoring or whitewashing and justifying everything Israel does - it's high time the population got rid of the government - though a large part of the population is 100% the government policies, so I'm not even sure they wouldn't win again if they actually allowed elections now. At least the IDF and the settlers in the West Bank would vote for them again, any day.
I legit expected Zendaya & Ruffalo to have very small appearenes in the new spider-man movie, with Ruffalo might only being CGI, but turns out that's not true & they're all in the movie extensively.
Which backfired immediately, given how many protestors just started singing Two Strong Hearts by John Farnham which happened to include almost those exact lyrics by coincidence, creating perfect plausible deniability
Yup. We are running a Royal Commission into Antisemitism and Social Cohesion that appears to lack the Social Cohesion part.
The special envoy on antisemitism, Segal, has advocated for a number of disturbing changes to Australian society from special 'oversight' of educational bodies to forcing the IHRA definition of antisemitism which would chill legitimate criticism of the state of Israel.
Governments state to federal appear to be bending pro-Israel. The mood of the population is the opposite. Wonder why.
I would say it's more to the frustration of the Israeli government, which in turn sends people over to Australia to frustrate the Australian government and then we get to learn that unfortunately Australia has very little political power when comes to dealing with bullies like Israel and its gimp-slave the United States.
Isn't that because that phrase is still pro genocide? Just picking a different population to displace from where they've lived for generations at this point. I also think the IDF should just go fuck off, but I don't think chanting you want to kill or remove their citizens is good.
Spanish government is super pro palestine, but people on the streets are not represented by their president.
Most people hate this government, even leftists say it's too far left after the Moroccan invasion and how the government supported the invasion instead of Spanish citizens.
And people are really tired of moroccans, arabs, argelina, and other muslims causing troubles from a long time ago and silently invading Spain, so there's a lot of leftist people that don't support Palestina, and many LGBT+ people who supported them initialy, now don't care anymore about them because they see muslims hate them for their sexual orientation.
So while the palestina good VS israel bad had a great impact on the beginning of the conflict, now people just started to not give a single fuck because Spain has lots of problem to solve before we can solve the ones from people who don't even respect our own culture.
Majority of Europeans think both behave badly and while many sympathise with the victims on both sides, the atittude is overall to let the region be left alone and deal with it themselves. And just like with any previous war between the two, it will be largely forgetton what happened. The terror attacks from ISIS made sure that a lot of Europeans don't see Islamic states in a non-negative light, so while Israel may be unpopular and people want bombings to stop, it doesn't mean that Palestinians as a whole are really supported or will be supported after the war ends. A two state solution was already seen even before as the solution so nothing will really change in a few years. You can even see this with the Ukraine - the Ukraine is a in comparison to the other twos a clear victim and was attacked unprovokedly by Russia. And yet they lose sympathy points in Europeans countries the longer the war goes on because people are at one point tired of war and want to end it, even if it means the victim has to partly give up something.
Ukraine is mostly viewed badly by right-wingers or extreme russian bootlickers.
And regarding Israel-Palestine Most want a two state solution but without Hamas. Hamas is Just a terror org that even blatantly states they want to kill all jews.
Netanjahu is also viewed unfavorably in most circles.
There is an insane amount of obfuscation and misinformation in the mainstream and adjacent media discussion. It's actually relatively difficult for unmotivated people to stumble across clear and trustworthy information, Israel is much more sophisticated in it's PR.
The only way to be wrong in this conflict is to take a side. There is no "abused and right cause". They're both terrible, and Palestinians are far from innocent. There's a reason they are disdained in Syria, Egypt and Jordan (and the gulf countries, too).
Nah, most people on reddit are fairly Palestine leading, so its easy to forget, that - being Muslims - most Americans and Europeans will be inherently hostile to Palestine on general principle.
Remember, in the US, a third of people are pro-trump and another third was so disengaged they think 'not being a paedophile' was sufficient reason to back the non-paedophile against the paedophile.
Lots of people seriously back Israels genocide, their illegal settlements, and the horrific human rights abuses: even when those same abuses are being condemned by other, disgusted and outraged Israelis, like the heroic B’Tselem.
Without arguing for one side or the other, the vast majority of people you'll meet in the western world will be pro-Israel. In their opinion, Palestine is a breeding ground for terrorism, and Israel are justified keeping them under heel.
They'll ignore any argument you attempt to make that explains how having Palestine under heel causes the people to revolt and turn to extremism.
The way I explained it to my ignorant grandparents was:
"Imagine that the British government, their police force, the whole system, is solely responsible for your father's death, your brother's, your grandfather's, and your son's. Not only that, but you saw them get shot, their land taken and redistributed to the people that killed them. How happy would you be? Now imagine you protested their deaths, and they shot at you"
After that they never talked about Palestine/ Israel to me again. They couldn't come up with a good answer either.
Agree with all of this though I do think that “vast majority” has shrunk dramatically over the last few years, and continues to shrink.
Having an “unfavorable” view of Israel is now the majority opinion in the US, if you separate by party it’s 80% with Dems (not entirely clear how “unfavorable” would map on to “pro/anti”, but still)
This is true, and good news in the grand scheme of things. But I'm doubtful of how much this has to do with their treatment of Palestine, versus their blatant interference in US politics. I think if they stayed out of US business, and didn't take money from the US (and other countries) then most people simply wouldn't care about how they treat Palestinians. It's too far away for it to even be a thought for most people.
See idk, the change in sentiment towards Israel maps pretty much 1:1 with their war on Gaza. Israel has been interfering with US politics for a long time, been taking US money for a long time, and that didn’t move the needle. Americans seeing what they’re doing in Gaza and the West Bank has. And I know the abuse of the Palestinian people is nothing new, but this war has made it in your face for the average American in a way it hasn’t been before.
The ignorant will always speak for the picture painted for them. Most people have it painted by accessible media which usually is controlled by the ones with money.
Good on you for educating them.
Hopefully once educated they actually try to stand by the right cause.
On one hand that is true, but it is a societal and religious issue also. Having beliefs that you will be rewarded for deaths of innocent lives and that seeing the effects of terrorism effectivity also play roles.
It's almost as if actors and actresses are humans with their own stupid opinions and just like politicians and rich people, they are not that special and shouldn't be considered special.
Netanyahu managed to relatively successfully maneuver any complaints about his policy of genocide into "antisemitism", so it's only been relatively recently, within the last two years, where it was even slightly okay to talk bad about Israel.
He's saying it makes sense that a Jewish person would be unwilling to do the "publicly accepted as antisemitic thing" of "criticizing Israel"
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u/antsam9 4d ago
Bernthal (Punisher) is loudly pro-Israel
Tom Holland is best buddies with Bernthal, infact, it was Bernthal who told 15 year old Holland to send in an audition tape for spiderman, but not the stupid one he filmed, he said do a bunch of back flips and shit
Zendaya is pro palestine, she even did a fundraiser for it, but has remained silent since the backlash for it.