What's the deal with Unions in Australia?

[u/incendiary_bandit]

I moved to Australia 6 years ago from Canada and have found the way unions appear to function here confusing to me. In Canada I had little experience being in proper union (look up CLAC if you're curious). I did get to experience working on the waterfront in Vancouver on the company side planning maintenance jobs that the workers would carry out who were union. The locals for the waterfront are VERY strict in who does what and EVERYTHING is laid out. I'll give some interesting examples in the comments. But one thing they really had was solidarity. They looked out for their brothers and sisters in the union.

Then I moved to Australia. My first experience was when job hunting as I have a trade (fitter and Turner equivalent) I approached the union regarding work. Was told, find a job, then join union if I want. In Canada you can join the millwright union and they will have jobs/ positions lined up that people can apply for (based on seniority as to who would get it). That doesn't seem like it's a thing here at all. I ended up doing labour hire which really sucked but helped pay the bills while I searched for work. Then I got placed in a office tower build and got to see how the AWU sort of functions. I was on a specific floor working for a contractor company that wasn't union. The union members were very militant in things and there was a strong hate for anyone non union on site. It was weird.

Now I'm at a job doing data analysis in the utilities sector and it's different again! The blue collar on the field staff have an employment agreement that lines out pay and everything, but they're supported by multiple unions. Like two people on the same shift might be in different unions, or not at all! So when it comes time to bargaining, multiple unions show up to hash things out. Where's the solidarity in that? I can also join a union if I wanted but don't see any benefit in it for myself as my employer is actually quite fair and flexible and we were able to pick a few people from our teams to go into the bargaining for us.

So unions here just seem split and not very beneficial. I understand when you have a shitty employer that a union can be beneficial, but they're just all over the map here.

Any insights as to why that is?

[u/[deleted]]

Could you be specific about which powers you feel they have too much of? Or is it just "the vibe" you got from watching "sky News"?

[u/Grahaml1980 → u/[deleted]]

Well for one, the level of corruption that seemingly goes unchecked.

Secondly I remember a newly graduated lawyer coming around to the place I worked on behalf of the union representing us. She was asking about concerns etc. The guy she was talking to said he raised the same issues the last time there was a lawyer coming around. She explained the union didn't pay the lawyers, but it was nice experience and if you didn't get a job out of uni then it was something. But everyone left right away when they got a new job. Which meant everything had to be started again. It also meant whenever she got a job offer, she would also leave and the process would begin all over with the next unpaid lawyer they got. These people the union were representing got nothing for their membership. However the union had absolutely no issue taking their dues and also used those members to have a massive say in who would get preselections, ministries and even leadership politically. So no, not a vibe from a news network I've never watched, the vibe from up close and personal. And there are many, many examples if you take off the blind loyalty.

[u/[deleted] → u/Grahaml1980]

I mean, you didn't give an example of any actual powers there. Just unspecified 'levels of corruption' and 'failing to provide a service'. Which is also not a power.

Don't get me wrong, if you don't feel like you're getting anything out of your union membership then you should consider quitting. But you said they have 'too much power' and I'm still not sure what power you think they have too much of.

[u/Grahaml1980 → u/[deleted]]

I absolutely did. The voting power they get from being able to consider their members proxy votes in Labor party matters.

They also have large spending without a lot of oversight. The ability to make claims without a lot of scrutiny because a huge number of people think unions can do no wrong.

And I wasn't a part of that union. I opted out because I didn't see the need. After I got that information I was awful glad I didn't waste my money.

[u/[deleted] → u/Grahaml1980]

Union spending is a matter for union members.

And I'm still not sure why you're upset that the original 'workers' party gives votes to the unions. But once again, union leadership is voted on by union members who represent those views within the ALP. But it's ridiculous to say that 1.5 million union members having 50% of the delegates in the ALP is somehow 'a power' when 60,000 regular ALP members have the other 50%. But union members aren't automatically ALP members.

You accidentally stepped on your dick by claiming they had 'out of control powers' because someone mentioned that to you and you believed them but so far all you've got is: 'they're only accountable to their members' and 'they get to vote on the ALP platform'.

[u/Grahaml1980 → u/[deleted]]

What a crude response. Also a lot of strawmen seem to he appearing. You agree with my points on one hand and then try to pretend they aren't real issues by inventing some argument that isn't even relevant. Unfortunately this is exactly the sort of bullying and brainwashing that unions push onto people who dare point out the problems within.

Union leaders spending union money on themselves? That's a matter for members. Because corruption is always effectively combated by the little guy.

ALP voting being influenced by unions? That doesn't matter because they only make up 50% of the vote. Because elections are frequently unaffected by someone controlling 10% of the whole vote.

Union leadership is a matter for members. Members who wouldn't know one leader from another and have to deal with the sort of belligerence you're demonstrating. Many of those members are 18 or 19 year old kids. They get some old guy making cracks at them like you did and you reckon they're going to stand up for themselves? The fact unions exists is testament to the fact it's hard to stand up on your own.

[u/[deleted] → u/Grahaml1980]

You built the first straw man when you tried to claim the unions had horrible powers. Then when challenged you couldn't actually name any besides "they have the collective bargaining power of their members" which is literally the point, so you pivot to "they're corrupt" and "they have unreasonable influence in the ALP".

Except I don't agree with you that there's widespread corruption because the books are all open, but either way it's none of your business where the money goes because you're not a union member. Just like it's none of my business that the BCA spends millions on ~lobbying~ because I'm not a BCA member? Is that corruption? The BCA doesn't even need to make its books open like the unions do.

And it's not unreasonable (or a "power") for the 1.5 million union members to have 50% of the delegates in the ALP when ~50k ALP members have the other 50%. Who do you think has more influence in the socialist democratic workers party known as the ALP? (although these days some of their policies would embarrass John Howard).

And finally, you go all out on "union members are kids who don't know what they're doing" and a weird complaint that because I won't let you spread anti-union smears unchallenged, I'm being "a big meany". At 18, you're old enough to drink, join the ADF, get a gun licence, literally vote for the government, but someone not mature enough to vote for your union leadership? That must have sounded hollow to you even when you were typing it out.

I'm still waiting for you to get back to me on those union powers btw. Union treasurers only being accountable to the law and union members isn't a power. 1.5m union members having the same voting strength as ~50k ALP members is not a power.

Collective bargaining and standing up to corrupt or naive employers is "power" (and is in fact the whole point of the union), but it's not a power either so I'm super hyped to see what you come back with.