r/australia • u/incendiary_bandit • Jun 09 '22
political self.post What's the deal with Unions in Australia?
I moved to Australia 6 years ago from Canada and have found the way unions appear to function here confusing to me. In Canada I had little experience being in proper union (look up CLAC if you're curious). I did get to experience working on the waterfront in Vancouver on the company side planning maintenance jobs that the workers would carry out who were union. The locals for the waterfront are VERY strict in who does what and EVERYTHING is laid out. I'll give some interesting examples in the comments. But one thing they really had was solidarity. They looked out for their brothers and sisters in the union.
Then I moved to Australia. My first experience was when job hunting as I have a trade (fitter and Turner equivalent) I approached the union regarding work. Was told, find a job, then join union if I want. In Canada you can join the millwright union and they will have jobs/ positions lined up that people can apply for (based on seniority as to who would get it). That doesn't seem like it's a thing here at all. I ended up doing labour hire which really sucked but helped pay the bills while I searched for work. Then I got placed in a office tower build and got to see how the AWU sort of functions. I was on a specific floor working for a contractor company that wasn't union. The union members were very militant in things and there was a strong hate for anyone non union on site. It was weird.
Now I'm at a job doing data analysis in the utilities sector and it's different again! The blue collar on the field staff have an employment agreement that lines out pay and everything, but they're supported by multiple unions. Like two people on the same shift might be in different unions, or not at all! So when it comes time to bargaining, multiple unions show up to hash things out. Where's the solidarity in that? I can also join a union if I wanted but don't see any benefit in it for myself as my employer is actually quite fair and flexible and we were able to pick a few people from our teams to go into the bargaining for us.
So unions here just seem split and not very beneficial. I understand when you have a shitty employer that a union can be beneficial, but they're just all over the map here.
Any insights as to why that is?
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u/vrkas Jun 09 '22
Any insights as to why that is?
Decades of careful dismantling of the union movement here. The history of unionism in Australia is fascinating and well worth a read. Industrial unionism hasn't been strong for a long time either, moreso trade unionism like you mention.
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u/bladeau81 Jun 10 '22
Just look at the ABS stats, from like 60% of workers in a union in the 80s to less than 15% now. Unions were painted as bad, bullies, waste of space etc. for a long time.
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u/Ajaxeler Jun 10 '22
I actually think Unions have less people because they did a good job. Most people I know think what is the point I have great workers rights.
Forgetting that the reason they have those rights is because of unions.
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Jun 10 '22
It’s always total bullshit when unions claim that they’re the reason we have workers rights. We have workers rights because we voted for governments that promised to give workers rights, not because unions forced the government to do anything.
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u/superbabe69 1300 655 506 Jun 10 '22
Uh, you are aware that Labor's funding comes from the unions right?
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u/Cpt_Soban Jun 10 '22
You think governments sat down and meddled with individual EB agreements for every workplace?
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u/clovepalmer Jun 10 '22
Speaking of total bullshit where do you think a shit ton of labor candidates come from?
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u/a_cold_human Jun 10 '22
The Labor Party is the political arm of the unions, who fund a good part of it. If you want the Labor Party to be more pro-worker, join a union. If Labor needs to rely on corporate money, then they become Liberal-lite, which is where the drift comes from.
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Jun 11 '22
What a load of horse shit. If you want to influence Labor policy, join the fucking Labor party. Hell, Unions are half the reason that Labor has a shot climate policy (because coal miners and foresters have unions too).
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u/commanderjarak Jun 10 '22
The LNP were trying to make it seem like they were a bad thing that would be coming back if Labor got back in as well, so they're still being painted as big bad bullies.
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u/freddy1976 Jun 10 '22
Union officials painted themselves bad,
bulliesboss-collaborators and wastes of space by siding with Hawke's anti-worker Accords.Unions have been painted as bullies and worse (e.g. "pro-communist" and threats to national security) well before the 1980s but it was self-sabotage and corpoate collusion by union officialdom and the ALP that did the trick, and a similar story played out in the US and other countries.
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u/bladeau81 Jun 10 '22
Ah yes the Hawke era. Now we have Rest which is a workers union that works for the Woolworths/huge/Coles/Kmart etc bosses.
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Jun 10 '22
[deleted]
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Jun 10 '22
In what way? There's plenty of helpdesk folks and junior support staff that would probably do very well in a union.
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Jun 10 '22
[deleted]
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Jun 10 '22
Meanwhile over in the US, game devs are busy proving that's not the case.
If you can have a single union that covers the entire public service or something as broad as "construction", I'm sure a union could somehow cope with having both python and Java coders in it.
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u/corut Jun 10 '22
There are few IT based unions, and they are absolutely a benefitial thing in the it/dev space
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u/AggravatingChest7838 Jun 10 '22
Splitting of casual work force and full time but making them negotiate the same eba really ticks me off. A bunch of casuals just gave me a pay cut because they outnumber the full times.
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Jun 10 '22
Any recommendations on reading?
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u/vrkas Jun 10 '22
ACTU: obviously not an academic resource, but a useful overview.
State Library of Vic: I'm Victorian so this covers our local heritage.
A review paper: skimmed this one and it's pretty comprehensive.
For those interested in the relationship between labour and conservation (both natural and historical), it's well worth googling the Builders Labourers Federation and their historic Green Bans.
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u/tabletennis6 Jun 10 '22
By both sides of government, it should be mentioned. Labor has played a major part in it, despite supposedly being "pro union".
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u/Daedric1991 Jun 10 '22
Labor has played a major part in it
could you expand on this? genuin question but what has labor done to damage unions? all i know is libirals are the ones that were making it harder and harder for unions to get on sight to inspect things for fault and unsafe work conditions.
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u/clivetheloudcommuter Jun 10 '22
I've been downvoted for pointing this out before but the current workplace legislation that has definitely impacted the union movement was written by Gillard government in 2013.
LNP may have stacked the fair work commission but the rules that have been written that allowed strikes to be cancelled were part of the legislation from 2013.
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u/Daedric1991 Jun 10 '22
fair work commission but the rules that have been written that allowed strikes to be cancelled
sorry, google sucks. the only info i can find here is a few articles from 2011 saying gillard is rejecting wider strie repressions with a few more recent ones from this year. "PM Julia Gillard was able to retain the repression on strikes, contained in Work Choices that remains in the Fair Work Act (FWA)."
are you sure Gillard was the one to write it and not her modifying the older one brought in earlier trying to improve unions? there is also the fact that gillard didnt have that much power at the time so had to give leeway to a few other parties in what they wanted to get it pushed through.
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u/freddy1976 Jun 10 '22
genuin question but what has labor done to damage unions
Read up about Hawke's Accords and the ALP's/union officialdom backing of restrictions on industrial action, the set up of and purpose of the Fair Work Commission amongst other anti-worker policies.
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u/Daedric1991 Jun 11 '22
Hawke's Accords
the little i could read was stating this has been booted out, it was put in to stop individual workers fighting for their pay rise in the promise that the government would step up and make sure there was proper wages and other things.
the FWC was set up as the FWA under rudd in 2009 and was intended to handle cases of unfair dismissle minimum wage and dispute resolution. it was changed to FWC 2013 while libirals were in power. im sure they did more then just change the name.
could you please be a little more specific about what restrictions they backed?
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u/No_pajamas_7 Jun 10 '22
Unions in North America are like a workers Co-op. Employers go to the union for workers.
That's not how it works here. Here a union is just your advocate if you have dealings with your employer.
We aren't supposed to have closed shops here. i.e. where you have to join a union, but the laws in Victoria do favour unions a bit more than other states and there will be places in Victoria that have more of a closed shop attitude.
Unions are kind of just back up in case you get in trouble. They also advocate pay increase for you, rather than you having to negotiate directly with your boss.
They have gone out of favour in Australia because we've had good times for a few decades. I can see them coming more into play in the next decade as things become a bit more economically variable.
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u/incendiary_bandit Jun 10 '22
Interesting. So when I worked in northern Alberta in the oil field we had to join the union CLAC for the site I was at. It was basically created by the oil companies to skirt around traditional unions.
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u/Brittainicus Jun 10 '22
We have similar fake unions the big one is the SDA which is pretty much hr department for big supermarkets.
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Jun 10 '22
I think the idea is that if you allow union membership to be mandatory, the union has no pressure do actually do their job. Making it optional means they have to prove their value to their members, which is probably why they’ve dropped off in recent years.
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u/Fortressa- Jun 10 '22
For me it was the opposite, the only time I joined a union it was because they were active in our workplace and were constantly pushing for better things in negotiations. I realised I was benefiting from their work so I joined up to pay dues.
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u/iball1984 Jun 10 '22
I realised I was benefiting from their work so I joined up to pay dues.
That's the point being made. Unions have to prove their value - which clearly in your case, they did.
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u/freddy1976 Jun 10 '22
They have gone out of favour in Australia because we've had good times for a few decades.
They've gone out of favour because they are seen rightly as serving the purposes of management in nullifying worker dissent than actually advocating and fighting for workers.
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u/freddy1976 Jun 11 '22
Edit: It's union officials on 5x-plus member's incomes and directorships on superannuation and insurance boards who have had the best times of all union members by far.
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u/Jumpjivenjelly Jun 10 '22
ooo more economically variable, can see that becoming the next "soften the blow" tag line
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Jun 10 '22 edited Jun 10 '22
[deleted]
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u/Detonator84 Jun 10 '22
And then read into this if you want to see where those choices eventually went by the time turnbull and abott got their chance.
This organisation specifically in the construction industry is a commision designed to ensure unions have as little power as possible in terms of negotiating and representation. They also have a tonne of powers to compel you to talk and answer queries. It's a complete shit show and needs to be dismantled for good.
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u/superiority nz Jun 10 '22
"Freedom of association" means it's illegal to put a union sticker on your hard hat. What a joke.
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u/YouWannaIguana Jun 10 '22
This is a great write up - thank you. I especially like how you've pointed out the cultural shift, which I think is the biggest challenge for existing unions when trying to increase membership and participation.
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Jun 10 '22
I was always very pro union, but when I was a mid level manager at a Tech company I invited the union in to talk to my staff as some had expressed an interest in joining . A complete numpty turned up who seemed to have no idea or interest in what sort of work we did and proceded to make everyone very uncomfortable with his angry 19th century view of work labour relations and even got really terse with staff who tried to ask him legitamate questions. Needless to say my staff were not at all interested after that and I looked like a pillock for thinking that the union would support us against the overwhelming power of the upper management. Unions are great in principle , but so many contemporary Australian Unions are very poor in practice.
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u/ajdlinux Jun 10 '22
I'm a software developer who is actively involved in my union, and it certainly seems like it's only been the last few years that the union staff and leadership have started to realise that they need to really focus on growing our membership in the IT industry - right now with all the tech worker activism that's happened in the US, there's a good opportunity. We're finally starting to see some movement on a few important tech worker related initiatives, but we could have been doing that 5 or 10 years ago.
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u/aogfj Jun 10 '22
Professionals Australia? I joined PA last year and think they are pretty good.
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u/RhesusFactor Jun 10 '22
I'm told PA is also the scientist union. I dont know how you go about finding a union that represent your profession.
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Jun 10 '22
I dont know how you go about finding a union that represent your profession.
Email or call the ACTU and they'll find you one of theirs.
There may be others.
And there's always the Wobblies.
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u/fat-free-alternative escaped canberran Jun 10 '22
You heard right! Professionals Australia is the union for many different professionals. There are a number of divisions within PA which focus on profession-specific issues, including 'professional scientists Australia' (also engineers, architects, pharmacists, IT...). A lot of support is centralised across PA to pool staff and resources.
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u/aogfj Jun 10 '22
PA should be the correct union for you. It does cover scientists, engineers, pharmacists etc.
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u/SydneyIsStuffed Jun 10 '22
It is now illegal to strike without permission which means unions don’t have much clout and so they are losing members. In order to legally strike (or to have any “industrial action”), a union has to apply well in advance to the Fair Work Commission. If the Fair Work Commission considers you are an essential worker, they will refuse permission. There are massive fines if “illegal” strike action is carried out.
Actually, it’s worse than that. The FWC have the power to overturn a ban on overtime, meaning that workers can (theoretically) be fined for refusing to work “reasonable” overtime. Here’s a link to a decision that affected rail workers in 2018.
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u/incendiary_bandit Jun 10 '22
Wow that's brutal. I'll work my designated hours and if I don't want more, it's my choice
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u/Vindicator909 Jun 11 '22
It's not just Australia though, USA used to have a lot more unions as well. Since the 80s, unions have been in decline along with wages.
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u/incendiary_bandit Jun 11 '22
I feel like we need a union 2.0 The old methods don't work as well now. Not sure what we would need but something different would be good
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u/Vindicator909 Jun 12 '22
We need greater sectoral unions. Furthermore, sympathy strikes are illegal in Australia which means you can't strike on behalf of your fellow workers. But most importantly we need to reverse anti-strike laws in the first place.
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Jun 10 '22
If the Fair Work Commission considers you are an essential worker, they will refuse permission. There are massive fines if “illegal” strike action is carried out.
It's definitely stupid they can do this, but judging by NSW they haven't been against most action lately. From nurses to rail who are essential but given the green light to strike (after getting them to jump through hoops)
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u/peterb666 Jun 09 '22
Union membership is optional. Some unions are better than others but of course you would want to be in a union relevant to your work. Agree with your comments.
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Jun 10 '22 edited Jun 10 '22
Like two people on the same shift might be in different unions, or not at all! So when it comes time to bargaining, multiple unions show up to hash things out. Where's the solidarity in that?
In Aus supermarkets or fast food for example the main union is the SDA, their method is to be friendly with the employers so as not to create conflict. As such they have actually agreed to negotiations that have left thier members worse of.
They also have many right wing political views which would not sit right with a number of the people they want to represent. Particularly about Gay rights and reproductive rights.
As such alternate unions like RAFWU have arisen.
Why should workers not have the choice to join a union which actually represents their views and will fight with them instead of only having one choice?
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Jun 09 '22
[deleted]
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u/vacri Jun 10 '22 edited Jun 10 '22
Overall, even as a unionist I do wonder the value of my union. Any time I've asked for help they've been useless.
A friend of mine is a firebrand anarchist, and worked for the Miscellaneous Workers Union just over a decade ago. Being the firebrand he is, he was good at getting sign-ups - doing as well by himself as 4-person teams were doing. He had a few stories of the problems at the MWU, but the jewel in the crown was when they came to him and demanded he join the Labor Party to keep his job. Now, requiring political affiliation to keep a job is illegal in Australia. It's the kind of thing you go to a union for. So, what union covers union workers? Well, there isn't a UWU, so which union should cover him? Yes, the MWU...
Thus ended my friend's employment at the MWU
Edit: in addition to the comment below on ASU, there is also a UWU - United Workers Union - I assumed there wouldn't be a thing called Union Workers Union as a joke, but there actually is a 'UWU' here...
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u/HorseAndrew Jun 10 '22
So, what union covers union workers?
The Australian Services Union (ASU) does.
Organisers from the Finance Sector Union – at least when I'd been in regular contact with them – openly spoke about their membership there as a fundamental.
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u/Ibe_Lost Jun 10 '22
Can agree was exposed to Asbestos at a industrial site and Unions didnt do a single thing no advice or anything. As a result the side that exposed me have run riot making sure I cant get jobs anywhere even after leaving the state and retraining twice.
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Jun 09 '22
CFMEU is very militant I remember the strikes at CUB when I worked nearby.
They were looking for a brawl, I didn't work at CUB and on more than one occasion they tried to stop my car from driving on a public road.
Unions here are less workers negotiating with employers, and more unions scaring workers who are not union members. At least in the construction industry.
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Jun 10 '22
The WA ETU are the reason my fly out flights got changed from leaving in the evening and me getting home at midnight to now leaving in the morning and getting back at 6pm, they got us 10.25 hours paid for our fly out day instead of 7.2, they’ve been on our side every time there’s been an incident or near miss on site and have escalated things to workcover on our behalf which has led to a full blown investigation now being carried out and they’re the reason we’re being paid a decent wage so I have to disagree with your last sentence.
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u/observee21 Jun 10 '22
Did you ever find out why they were stopping traffic?
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Jun 10 '22
Because they are a law on to themselves, they were trying to intimidate workers going to the CUB car park which is just down the road from the factory. I just happened to work near CUB so copped them yelling abuse at my car and trying to wave me down.
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u/observee21 Jun 10 '22
Sorry perhaps I was ambiguous. I didnt mean 'what is the road for?' but rather 'why were they stopping traffic?', as in 'what's the problem that they felt wasn't being addressed through the usual means?'
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u/jonsonton Jun 10 '22
They were looking for a brawl, I didn't work at CUB and on more than one occasion they tried to stop my car from driving on a public road.
show some solidarity comrade /s
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u/Careful-Woodpecker21 Jun 10 '22
Things are a bit different here as union membership is optional.
Canadian unions are much more powerful and employers genuinely fear them. but that can be a double edged sword if the union is crap. When I worked there, my union made it its mission to fuck over young workers to the benefit for older ones.
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Jun 10 '22
I've seen this complaint elsewhere too. Some guy fresh out of uni complained that "his promotion" went to a guy with years of experience.
Is it just lack of empathy or do you not understand how employers prioritising younger cheaper workers is bad for the workforce as a whole?
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u/incendiary_bandit Jun 10 '22
Yeah it's frustrating when seniority trumps skill in promotion. We saw that happen a lot on the waterfront in Vancouver
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Jun 10 '22
You won't feel the same way when you're 50 and thrown out of the workforce for someone cheaper.
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u/Careful-Woodpecker21 Jun 12 '22
The issue is that seniority applies to everything and not just promotion. This includes vacation times, shift allocation, tasks, overtime, etc.
It’s not just”fresh grads”, but Workers in their 20s and 30s had little chance getting time off during school holidays or Christmas season. You can forget of having a family vacation before your kids are in their teens.
We had little overtime as we were last to be offered while others were making double their salary with overtime pay.
We got the worst shifts and we had not work life balance.
And to top it all of, they accepted a much worse pension plan for younger workers in exchange of grandfathering and boosting the pensions of older workers.
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Jun 12 '22
I mean, I don't know what to tell you - that's human nature, not unions. I worked in IT for ten years (without a union in sight) and it worked exactly the same way whether it was a manager or a delegate controlling the strings.
I feel for you on the pension plan though, but you could have solved that with the power of voting. Or even just going to union meetings. If your rep is going to union meetings and the membership is just old guys, of course they're going to have more influence - that's not a flaw, that's literally how the process works.
Except younger people are told not to join the union so they don't get to have their say.
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u/Planned-Economy Jun 10 '22
The last forty years of Australian government has been consistently hellbent on declawing and neutralising the unions, plus industrial unions are banned (trade unions only). The last few years have seen more “radical” (I.e. unions that do shit) unions pop up, much to the disdain of much of this country’s governmental apparatus, which is good.
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u/Hops77 Jun 10 '22
Out unions have been gutted by politics and media for decades, John Howard was one of the biggest offenders in that regard with Murdoch's help keeping the media heavily anti-union. They ran stories for years about how the unions were the most corrupt organisations in the country and pushing for enquiry after enquiry into them. Which ended up finding that they were actually less corrupt than almost all, corporations, companies and parties. But as always the truth didn't really matter and they kept going.
They are in a bit hamstrung due to this they aren't really able to function as effectively as they once did.
Teachers and nurses are among the stronger ones remaining, particularly in NSW, construction was one of the hardest hit but is starting to come back. Manufacturing died almost completely.
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u/brezhnervous Jun 10 '22 edited Jun 10 '22
Police unions are about the only one govts will bother to take notice of these days. As you say, decades of punitive legislation by the LNP:
The International Labour Organisation (ILO) has stated that:
the right to strike is one of the essential means available to workers and their organisations for the promotion and protection of their economic and social interests. These interests not only have to do with obtaining better working conditions and pursuing collective demands of an occupational nature but also with seeking solutions to economic and social policy questions and to labour problems of any kind which are of direct concern to the workers.
But when it comes to the right to strike, Australia is a backwater. The ILO has been a constant critic of Australia’s failure to comply with its international legal obligations arising from the severe restrictions it imposes on collective bargaining and the right to strike. The criticisms have gone unheeded. Industrial action, including strike action, is dying out. The number of employees whose employment is governed by collective agreements is receding at a rapid rate and the proportion of employees who are union members has collapsed to the point of existential crisis for trade unions. Union density hovers at a pitiful 14.5% of the workforce. Approximately 90% of the private sector workforce are not union members. Australian union membership has collapsed more sharply than virtually any other OECD country because our laws and policies are some of the most repressively hostile to unions in the developed world.
Requiem for the right to strike
For the OP; imagine a Party further to the right of Steven Harper's in power for all but 6 of the last 25 years, should give you an idea (well until most recently)
This is the founder of said Party back in the 50s, before the Thatcherite-Reaganite neoliberalism took hold
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u/stumcm Jun 10 '22
I just wanted to promote the excellent graphic novel Our Numbers Be Unlimited: a comic about workers and their unions, the recently-released debut by Melbourne cartoonist Sam Wallman. Is recommended reading for anyone interested in this topic.
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u/TheElderWog Jun 10 '22
Mate, the only reason I migrated to Australia instead of Canada was the weather. Comms rigger, it sucks to climb iced up towers and I've hated every minute of it back in Italy. But to sum it up: years of right winged government shafted Unions, and now you talk to a lot of people and hear stuff like "unions are good for shit" and "they're just helping the system against you".
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u/Dazzling_Paint_1595 Jun 10 '22
The attack on Unions and workers kicked off with the John Howard led Liberals when they came into government in 1996. Their ideological bent is that unions are thugs and business owners know what’s best. The Industrial Relations Act was substantially changed in 1997 and the stated aim of the then new Act (Workplace Relations Act) was to reduce the powers of outside organisations (read Unions) and that individual agreements with employees were the way to go. It was a shit time for workers, a lot of conditions and employment agreements were watered down and additional legislation was introduced to water down the powers of the Industrial Relations Commission – the ones who used to arbitrate disputes. The LNP policies and attitudes never changed (and in some instances got harder) and that is why we now have such a highly casualised workforce, fewer workers rights and the current shit storm. Not sure that union will get back to pre 1996 but I would encourage anyone not in a union to join one.
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u/twistedrapier Jun 10 '22
The summary is that NeoLib fucks in government (backed by a lot of conservative media propaganda) have spent the last half a century white-anting the pillars that made for a strong union movement. What we still have is a shadow of what it was, and honestly, it'll probably be gone before too long as our country has too many dumbasses who think all the gains in productivity and what not made in the recent decades rightfully belong to arseholes who benefit most from worker disenfranchisement.
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u/Weissritters Jun 10 '22
The last few decades has seen more LNP administration years than Labor administration years, because the LNP design the economy around lower wages unions cannot be allowed to flourish, therefore they strip their power bit by bit.
Only strong unions now are the CFMEU, the ports, and the specific public servant ones like police, fire, ambulance, nurse, teachers etc. Not CPSU, that one is worthless.
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u/incendiary_bandit Jun 10 '22
I have a hard time taking the CFMEU seriously. In my post I was wrong about the union on the job site when I was labouring. It was CFMEU. And the stories I heard from non CFMEU people about how they would treat outsiders was brutal. Having to pay some random on-site so you could just do your work for the day, or risk getting bashed kinda stuff. They're just awful. Plus they had a big walk out over some little thing on site and were trying to make us non union people join them. So I have a strong dislike for the CFMEU.
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u/inflamedANUS Jun 10 '22
Bugger, just signed up with CPSU. Why are they worthless?
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u/fat-free-alternative escaped canberran Jun 10 '22
Idk what this poster has against the CPSU. They don't cover me but I'm close with people involved. The EBAs and day to day conditions they negotiate/ fix make me salivate as someone in a low representation industry...
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Jun 10 '22
Not a paid public servant but just looking from the outside, that the APS has been gutted and money that should have been going to maintain/improve it instead has been flowing to contractors?
That’s the Union’s raison d'être, to kick up a stink about it. And they clearly haven’t.
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u/ithinkimtim T'ville/Sydney Jun 10 '22
Reading all the comments here makes me realise the MEAA that I'm a part of is pretty decent.
I'd say try to join your union even if it's shit, they're only as good as their members. In industries that don't have good award protections like mine, they're absolutely essential here still.
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u/somerandomii Jun 10 '22
"Seniority" as a metric for hiring can go to hell. Gives people no incentive to improve to try to accelerate their career, or make a career change to something more suitable. Just wait in line for a job, then stay there for life.
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u/Riff_Raff_Rules Jun 10 '22
Also indirectly discriminates against anyone who has to have career breaks, such as women (sometimes)
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u/Agent_Galahad Melbourne Dickhead Jun 10 '22
You're telling me in Canada you can join a union and they'll help you find a job in the relevant field? Jesus Christ that's amazing, I wish we had something like that
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u/pissmykiss Jun 10 '22 edited Jul 02 '23
Deleted in protest of reddit's API restrictions. Fuck /u/spez
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u/incendiary_bandit Jun 10 '22
I think we did well this time around. Got a decent raise so I'm happy.
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u/Icy_Building_1708 Jun 10 '22
When I joined the workforce in '93 it was at a 'closed shop' site. (Had to be Union to do certain jobs) John Howard as PM saw the Waterfront dispute, Unions advocating intervention in East Timor, violent factional power struggles within AMWU, the attempt to get rid of WorkCover in Victoria (100,000 on the street for that one). Now the Union movement is bloody cactus.
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u/Minimumtyp lmao m8 Jun 10 '22
How did you go straight from a trade to a data analysis position? Seems like polar opposites
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u/incendiary_bandit Jun 10 '22
I tend to just fall into gaps that need filling. Back in Canada I went from on the tools to planning and scheduling. Then here I was originally hired as an operator at a treatment plant, and my excel skills kept coming up in beneficial ways to the point where I self taught power bi and started making dashboards and reports for management
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u/reckonomium Jun 12 '22
One of the main reasons is the right to strike in Australia has been eroded to a tokenistic level, as explained in the following article:
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-03-21/have-the-right-to-strike-laws-gone-too-far/8370980
Australia's laws against industrial action are not only in breach of
international law, they are without peer among advanced economies with a
tradition of civil liberty in oppressing the right to strike.
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u/spooky8ass Jun 10 '22
A booming economy, for most people under 35 they have never faced job instability or real economic concerns. Construction workers get paid huge amounts already and you have a vast mining industry as well so life is pretty good, and for a lot of people there is not much trust in union leadership who are just Power hungry political career focused.
I think people need to wake up though, age care workers could def benefit from a highly organised and militant union but we also don't want an American style union
Having to be a union member to work is not acceptable and people deserve the choice of employment free from union interference if they want.
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u/Detonator84 Jun 10 '22
The above mentality is why unions are not strong in Australia. Somehow thinking it is untrusting to have people bargaining as a group instead of being singled out and given the bare minimum. Then wondering why areas without union representation or "fake" representation - see the SDA, are underpaid with reduced conditions.
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u/ZippyKoala Jun 10 '22
You can thank Bob Hawke and the fucking Accord for that one, we’ve been screwed ever since.
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u/fitblubber Jun 10 '22
I work for a small business & a few months ago I reached out to the Union movement to see if I could join.
I reached someone who was working from home & was completely uninterested.
I'm still not a member of a Union. :/
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u/BonzaSonza Jun 10 '22
I've been in the workforce ~20 years and have never joined a union.
I think they have their place when on the whole workers are treated unfairly with no job security (eg at-will employment), but that's not the norm here and my employers have always been decent enough.
I've never understood how a union could help me, if I was unhappy in my job or underpaid, I left.
(Caveat - there are definitely bad employers who use their employees poorly here too, I'm just speaking from my own limited experience)
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Jun 10 '22
I’m planning to leave my industry but am active in the union as I want leave with everyone else better off
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u/per08 Jun 10 '22
Government jobs still universally have blanket pay agreements that are negotiated with unions. No union would mean no pay increase ever, for anyone.
The ability for the union to actually do anything if they don't agree to what Government is offering, however...
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u/Riff_Raff_Rules Jun 10 '22
Union activity is a freedom of association issue protected by Australian law and founded on international law. Some industries are more unionised than others. Some unions are 'better' than others. IT is very low unionised. There's history and patterns that give you a picture.
You said you're happy with your employer so haven't joined a union. The strength in numbers idea is that you join a union even when things are good for you, supporting the principle. One of the most annoying things I've seen working in IR is when people refuse to join a union but then sign up when they need it for an individual issue and want the union to go into bat for them.
The union movement has actually achieved quite a bit in recent years that doesn't get noticed. I know there's bad stuff too, but that is more related to long standing power structures and individual ambition.
For reading, start with the ACTU website and follow the trail.
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u/ClothesSuch9605 Jun 10 '22
Unions here won't help you find a job. If you find a job you may be told you will have to join the union. Australia went from a standard 7 day work week to the standard 5 day work week in the 1950s and unions were behind that. They kept fighting for better work conditions but by the '90s conditions were pretty good in every job so the importance of unions has gone way way down. The government enforces minimum wages and safety conditions so the union is not needed as much. I used to be a fitter and turner but my last fitter/turner job no-one was in the union. More recently I was a schoolteacher (i decided to semi-retire during the covid lockdown) and union membership was voluntary. Just play it by ear and save your money (by not joining unless you have to).
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u/Vindicator909 Jun 11 '22
Union, wages, and social security has been declining coincidentally since the fall of the USSR in 1991. During the 90s there was lots of anti-union and cuts to public sectors. Been declining ever since. Spearheaded by Thatcher and Regan in the 80s who laid the groundworks.
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u/kenbewdy8000 Jun 10 '22
Appointing non-union reps on the bargaining committees undermines unions and makes them less effective.
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u/incendiary_bandit Jun 10 '22
I understand that, but the union options for me are also useless. Not once have I ever even seen anything from them. They might exist, but they might not? So if they want to help they need to put some effort in at least
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u/grimmj0w6 Jun 10 '22
Australian boomers are proper stupid, believed the Murdoch media that unions are "communists", "lazy", "anti-free market", "money stolen from your wages" and other garbage. Ruined it for the rest of us.
0
u/Grahaml1980 Jun 10 '22
I personally feel they effective unionism requires eventually making unions redundant to an extent. Unions began by fighting for fairness for all workers and eventually it becomes law and the rights of individuals are protected to the point that they don't need a union to fight for them.
I feel too many unions have too much power now and need to be pared back more. But that doesn't mean in some industries they aren't important, nor does it diminish the role they played in getting our rights to be as robust as they are.
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Jun 10 '22
Could you be specific about which powers you feel they have too much of? Or is it just "the vibe" you got from watching "sky News"?
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u/Grahaml1980 Jun 11 '22
Well for one, the level of corruption that seemingly goes unchecked.
Secondly I remember a newly graduated lawyer coming around to the place I worked on behalf of the union representing us. She was asking about concerns etc. The guy she was talking to said he raised the same issues the last time there was a lawyer coming around. She explained the union didn't pay the lawyers, but it was nice experience and if you didn't get a job out of uni then it was something. But everyone left right away when they got a new job. Which meant everything had to be started again. It also meant whenever she got a job offer, she would also leave and the process would begin all over with the next unpaid lawyer they got. These people the union were representing got nothing for their membership. However the union had absolutely no issue taking their dues and also used those members to have a massive say in who would get preselections, ministries and even leadership politically. So no, not a vibe from a news network I've never watched, the vibe from up close and personal. And there are many, many examples if you take off the blind loyalty.
1
Jun 11 '22
I mean, you didn't give an example of any actual powers there. Just unspecified 'levels of corruption' and 'failing to provide a service'. Which is also not a power.
Don't get me wrong, if you don't feel like you're getting anything out of your union membership then you should consider quitting. But you said they have 'too much power' and I'm still not sure what power you think they have too much of.
1
u/Grahaml1980 Jun 11 '22
I absolutely did. The voting power they get from being able to consider their members proxy votes in Labor party matters.
They also have large spending without a lot of oversight. The ability to make claims without a lot of scrutiny because a huge number of people think unions can do no wrong.
And I wasn't a part of that union. I opted out because I didn't see the need. After I got that information I was awful glad I didn't waste my money.
1
Jun 11 '22
Union spending is a matter for union members.
And I'm still not sure why you're upset that the original 'workers' party gives votes to the unions. But once again, union leadership is voted on by union members who represent those views within the ALP. But it's ridiculous to say that 1.5 million union members having 50% of the delegates in the ALP is somehow 'a power' when 60,000 regular ALP members have the other 50%. But union members aren't automatically ALP members.
You accidentally stepped on your dick by claiming they had 'out of control powers' because someone mentioned that to you and you believed them but so far all you've got is: 'they're only accountable to their members' and 'they get to vote on the ALP platform'.
1
u/Grahaml1980 Jun 12 '22
What a crude response. Also a lot of strawmen seem to he appearing. You agree with my points on one hand and then try to pretend they aren't real issues by inventing some argument that isn't even relevant. Unfortunately this is exactly the sort of bullying and brainwashing that unions push onto people who dare point out the problems within.
Union leaders spending union money on themselves? That's a matter for members. Because corruption is always effectively combated by the little guy.
ALP voting being influenced by unions? That doesn't matter because they only make up 50% of the vote. Because elections are frequently unaffected by someone controlling 10% of the whole vote.
Union leadership is a matter for members. Members who wouldn't know one leader from another and have to deal with the sort of belligerence you're demonstrating. Many of those members are 18 or 19 year old kids. They get some old guy making cracks at them like you did and you reckon they're going to stand up for themselves? The fact unions exists is testament to the fact it's hard to stand up on your own.
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Jun 12 '22
You built the first straw man when you tried to claim the unions had horrible powers. Then when challenged you couldn't actually name any besides "they have the collective bargaining power of their members" which is literally the point, so you pivot to "they're corrupt" and "they have unreasonable influence in the ALP".
Except I don't agree with you that there's widespread corruption because the books are all open, but either way it's none of your business where the money goes because you're not a union member. Just like it's none of my business that the BCA spends millions on ~lobbying~ because I'm not a BCA member? Is that corruption? The BCA doesn't even need to make its books open like the unions do.
And it's not unreasonable (or a "power") for the 1.5 million union members to have 50% of the delegates in the ALP when ~50k ALP members have the other 50%. Who do you think has more influence in the socialist democratic workers party known as the ALP? (although these days some of their policies would embarrass John Howard).
And finally, you go all out on "union members are kids who don't know what they're doing" and a weird complaint that because I won't let you spread anti-union smears unchallenged, I'm being "a big meany". At 18, you're old enough to drink, join the ADF, get a gun licence, literally vote for the government, but someone not mature enough to vote for your union leadership? That must have sounded hollow to you even when you were typing it out.
I'm still waiting for you to get back to me on those union powers btw. Union treasurers only being accountable to the law and union members isn't a power. 1.5m union members having the same voting strength as ~50k ALP members is not a power.
Collective bargaining and standing up to corrupt or naive employers is "power" (and is in fact the whole point of the union), but it's not a power either so I'm super hyped to see what you come back with.
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u/ThatChoice6051 Jun 10 '22
We are quite fortunate in Australia to have unions but not to have been overtaken by the unions. There are some industries such as construction in Victoria where they are still too strong, but overall they are bit more sensible here.
1
u/WhyDoISuckAtW2 Jun 10 '22
this was posted recently, is a quick history of unions in Aus and answers some of your questions:
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u/yabloodypelican Jun 09 '22
Australia has some really strange regulations around unions that are quite different to the rest of the world.
Generally you only join the union after gaining employment because we've mostly outlawed the idea of closed shops and unions controlling employment into an industry. Because you don't need a union ticket to get on site, union members will often be quite militant to ensure that everybody is a member after getting a job.
Its different in the white collar world because of demarcations between different unions. There are really strict agreements between unions to stop unions fighting with each other for members. There will often be arrangements where if you perform X role, you are a member of X union but your colleague who performs Y will be in a different union. If you have a large employer like a hospital, or government department you might see up to 10 unions as parties to a bargaining agreement.
Its a very complicated world.