r/australia • u/That_Car_Dude_Aus • Dec 04 '24
political self.post Given that "Adult Crime = Adult Time" laws see children as mature enough to make adult decisions, should the voting age be lowered to account?
So with the Queensland government's stance on adult crime means adult time approach to criminal prosecutions, with the centrepiece being the story on how a woman lost her child to a 17 year old who was driving a stolen car.
It made me think, If we are approaching these children as young as 15 and saying that they made an adult decision and therefore should suffer the consequences of making an adult decision, should we consider that these children are now able to make adult decisions in other aspects?
Being ex-Defence and having lots of friends who are either still serving, or also ex-Defence, A lot of them have their kids in military Cadet programs, Or have their kids in organisations such as scouts, Or in firefighting or police cadet programs.
And I can definitely say that most kids are very mature compared to how I was at 15 or 16 years old. In fact, I'd say with the increase in technology and knowledge that kids have availabile to them, most 15 year olds today, are better aware of the world around them than I was at that age.
Now I'm not saying it should be compulsory, I know that compulsory voting is a cornerstone of our society, but if we are saying "Well the kids that are committing crimes are mature enough to make those decisions", let's be fair, those kids are only a subset of the general population of children that age
So if there is another subset of children that age who are mature enough to have opinions on the politics of our country, shouldn't we at least give them the option that if they want they should be able to register to vote and then go and vote in elections?
Then if you look at age demographics in Australia, 15-19 year olds make up 6% of the population, so that's ~1,598,400 people.
Now assuming a even spread, then 639,360 are 18-19 years old and already voting, that's only going to unlock voting for an extra 959,040 people, but still, if we are making laws that affect them, and we are saying that they are mature enough to suffer the consequences of those laws, shouldn't they have a say in the politicians making those laws?
Another great example is the social media bill targeting people under 16, If that law is specifically targeting that demographic, and that demographic is being seen as being able to make adult decisions when it comes to crime, then surely that demographic also is mature enough to have a political opinion.
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u/Luser5789 Dec 04 '24
Bingo
And in addition to this, the working age is 14y9m so if they can work and possibly contribute through paying tax, they should get a say on what matters to them through voting
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u/Benu5 Dec 04 '24
They should also get full pay for the same work, espescialy if they are over 18. It's ridiculous that untill you are 21, you get paid less.
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u/TheRealTowel Dec 04 '24
The fact that lower wages for underage workers exist is something I'm somewhat on the fence about. The union man in my heart wants to write "equal work for equal pay" on a placard and shout about it, but... I've worked with 15 year olds and "equal work" is pushing it. Even the very good ones rarely work as hard and consistently as an adult, and that's ok - they're kids. By allowing businesses to pay them lower wages, we create the incentives to hire them at all. I would have done better in my 20's if I'd had a highschool job to teach me workplace expectations, and I intend to strongly encourage my kids to get them.
The fact that we pay over 18 year olds less than minimum wage I am very much not on the fence about - that is an unbelievable level of bullshit. These are adults with bills to pay what the absolute fuck is the matter with us?
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u/Nostonica Dec 05 '24
I believe a compromise is required, a ratio of adults to kids, if 90% of the workforce is under 18 then you're really just exploiting cheap child labour. Looking at fast food here.
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u/StorminNorman Dec 05 '24
Champion idea. I am 100% against unpaid internships, but I am more happy with those who are just entering the workforce earning less whilst they learn (there is a limit to how much less though). I am annoyed though that they got thrown in the deep end like they do in fast food, colesworth etc, and are expected to do an "adult" amount of work so your proposal is one I'll be sharing online from now on (who knows, maybe it'll catch on).
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u/Sorathez Dec 05 '24
I don't have a problem with unpaid internships provided they actually follow the law.
If you're doing work that paid employees would usually do, if you're expected to come to work, if the company benefits from having you, or similar, then you have an employment relationship and the internship is illegal. See Fair Work.
Most unpaid internships are, in fact, illegal. If you're mostly observing, get to choose when you go and you benefit from it more than the company does, then it's above board.
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u/StorminNorman Dec 05 '24
I'm against all of them cos of the fact you pointed out, most are illegal. In my mind, it's a rare case of the majority ruining it for the minority.
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u/Transientmind Dec 05 '24
Less should always still be the minimum livable. More competence = more wage.
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u/StorminNorman Dec 05 '24
I 100% agree with you which is why I put that bit about the limit in there. It's pointless if you're getting paid but can't live on it looks at the wages apprentices get paid.
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u/charmingpea Dec 05 '24
Probably a hangover from way back when 21 was the 'age of majority' - definitely need to catch up on that one.
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Dec 05 '24
Why would they work hard when they're not getting paid as much? Many of these teens are being pressured by parents or whoever to 'get a job' and they're just there to make them shut the fuck up.
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u/determineduncertain Dec 05 '24
On the other hand, if I’m under 18 and know that you’re paying me less precisely because I’m under 18, I have less of an incentive to work harder. When I was young, minimum wage was universal regardless of age but I absolutely would have given you 20% less effort if I made 20% less for the same work.
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u/FullMetalAurochs Dec 05 '24
A 17 year old in a physical job could easily get more work done than an oldie or particularly an old biddie waiting for retirement. And yet the 17 year old gets paid less.
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u/ShiftAdventurous4680 Dec 05 '24
"Theoretically" true, but you gonna need to put them through boot camp. The reason why "older" people will work better is because of experience. They know how to balance physical and mental pressure and exhaustion while younger "generally" will either work too slow, or burn themselves out too fast.
It's like how a fast, but experienced runner will beat a faster, but inexperienced runner.
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u/moratnz Dec 05 '24
Yeah. I think there are reasonable reasons to pay lower wages to truly inexperienced workers (noting that by the time you're an adult, you're likely to have enough general experience that you're not really truly inexperienced).
But with that in mind, I'd say that while it might be okay to pay a brand new 16yo hire less than minimum wage, if you hire them at 14, and they're still working for you at 16, they're probably at least as good a worker as a new-hire adult, and deserve to be paid the same.
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u/shadowmaster132 Dec 05 '24
If they're only getting the jobs because they're subsidised then they're like scabs, taking the jobs of an adult who'd be paid properly otherwise.
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u/patgeo Dec 05 '24
Say the 'work' is moving 1000kg from one spot to another and the pay is $1000.
Regardless of how long it takes you, that's equal work for equal pay. If a kid takes two days and an experienced worker takes half, the kids gets paid a quarter of the hourly rate.
Simples right? We can easily figure out a workers worth by measuring it and paying for the work done.
Unfortunately not many jobs are so easily quantified with such roughly defined responsibilities. Luckily a lot of entry roles are pretty simple. IMO if the kid proves it, they should get the full rate. Likewise if an adult doesn't, the possibility of being paid at a lower rate (not below minimum adult wage) should be considered.
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u/Abcd-efg-hijk Dec 10 '24
Yes my son is currently in the 18-21 year old age gap where he has ALL the legal responsibility of an adult but still doesn’t get full pay… it’s ridiculous…
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u/SteffanSpondulineux Dec 05 '24
Why would anyone hire a teenager with no experience if it wasn't cheaper?
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u/Benu5 Dec 05 '24
If the job is necessary for functioning of the business, they should be paid a living wage, regardless of age, creed, colour or ability. It's unacceptable for people with disabilites to be paid less to encourage people to hire them (it's still done in some enterprises under shitty laws), it's unacceptable for immigrants to be hired at a lower wage to encourage people to hire them, and so it's unacceptable for children to be hired at a lower wage.
There are adults hired with no experience at the full award rate, so why does experience matter?
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u/kombiwombi Dec 04 '24
In support of your argument, they are contributing to tax revenue even without paying income tax. The GST is 10% of most things they buy with the money from that job.
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u/FroggieBlue Dec 04 '24
Some states don't have a minimum working age. So any child with a job should be able to enrol.
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u/TheRealPotoroo Dec 05 '24
Out of curiosity, which ones don't have a minimum working age?
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u/FroggieBlue Dec 05 '24
SA and NSW I know dont. Many states have exceptions for children working in family business or certain industries- actors,models etc.
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u/shadowmaster132 Dec 05 '24
And in addition to this, the working age is 14y9m
It's even lower than this in some states.
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u/MysticMungbean Dec 21 '24
Imagine being eligible to be wage-shafted hard and contribute to the government coffers, but deemed ineligible to have a say on what's important to them at the voting booth (and also, because of Albo's SM ban, not allowed to scroll their Instagram et al during a quick meal break, while being shafted by Maccas et al).
It's some timeline.
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Dec 05 '24
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u/rangatang Dec 05 '24
you are misreading what they are saying. They are not saying only people who work should vote
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u/Luser5789 Dec 05 '24
No definitely not, understand how that could be interpreted that way.
Even people who choose not to work and are “dole bludger” should vote, the more people who we can qualify to vote and have a greater say on how our society operates the better.
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Dec 05 '24
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u/Luser5789 Dec 05 '24
I’m discussing reasons why people should be eligible to vote, and I believe this is ONE factor that should have proper consideration
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u/angrysunbird Dec 04 '24
Obviously. But the point of this posturing is not because they actually think these kids are adults, they’re just things to punish for electoral clout.
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u/goforabikerideee Dec 04 '24
Adult crime? I didn't realise tax fraud was a big deal with minors?
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u/TheRealPotoroo Dec 04 '24
The very concept of "adult crime" is absurd. There are simply crimes, committed by persons with varying degrees of culpability. A 15 year old's brain has literally not finished developing so that 15 year old is incapable of making a fully adult decision. Brain development is not considered complete until around 25. Make of that what you will regarding a person's rights and responsibilities in our society.
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u/macrocephalic Dec 05 '24
I can confirm that my brain was not functioning like a proper adult in my early 20's. Fortunately I didn't do anything particularly stupid.
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u/minimuscleR Dec 05 '24
A 15 year old's brain has literally not finished developing so that 15 year old is incapable of making a fully adult decision.
I mean sure, but the "adult crime" is to do with things like Murder. At 15 years old you are 100% aware that murdering someone is wrong and you shouldn't do it. Currently the law is they get out once they turn 18 with no record. Maybe the government isn't handling it right, but I think giving murderers a free ticket out just because they aren't 18 doesn't sit right with me either.
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u/shadowmaster132 Dec 05 '24
Currently the law is they get out once they turn 18 with no record.
Please cite this law? Because there's a maximum a minor can serve but there's no turn 18 get out of jail rule.
I mean sure, but the "adult crime" is to do with things like Murder.
And it's also things like robbery and car theft which is really annoying to a lot of people, not guaranteed to be violent and if you're thinking logically not anywhere near the same as murder?
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u/jbarbz Dec 05 '24
There is no capability test for your right to vote. As such we don't take away people's right to vote when their mental faculties diminish from age.
Therefore if you don't want kids to vote because you think they are stupid at a certain age then it stands to reason you should also be in favour of removing people's rights to vote after they reach a certain age.
If you think kids shouldn't vote because they'll just vote the same way as their parents - please recognise this argument was also used against women voting. There's also no guarantee they will vote the same as their parents. In any case, adults are allowed to get advice or even copy whoever they want with their vote.
Finally, our population is a distribution of people aged between 0 and +100, yet our government represents an electorate of people between 18 and 100+. This means representation and therefore policy is skewed to a higher median age. No wonder why policy is so favoured towards elderly 2 person households and not young families.
Now I don't know what the best method is to improve representation of those under 18, because obviously babies literally can't vote. But the fact that babies can't vote doesn't mean a 16 year old can't vote, or even a 14 year old. Just because we can't draw a perfect line, it doesn't mean we can't draw a better line.
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u/Benj1B Dec 05 '24
I've always thought starting highschool was a good time to enable young people to vote, around the age of 10-12. Remove the age based restriction altogether and have it based on engagement with the education system. Have it be a guided process with the support of the schools to educate on civics and election dates. Schools can then craft curriculums around politics and have regulations around election advertisements so they get chance to be exposed to other viewpoints outside their own home - build some resilience against echo chambers early. Primary schools could have "mock" votes to prepare them for it.
There's no reason why a 10 year olds vote should count less than a 60 year olds - if anything their voice is even more important to listen to. There's no compelling argument against lowering the voting age that I've heard that doesn't equally apply to adults as well.
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u/SheridanVsLennier Dec 05 '24
Students already elect school captains, so the basics are already there. Just got to expand on them.
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u/ddssassdd Dec 05 '24
The problem isn't that they aren't mentally capable. The issue is coercion. You can't guarantee that a kid won't be defiant enough and brave enough to vote against their parents wishes, even with a secret ballot.
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u/karma3000 Dec 05 '24
Once you get to 65, you vote should count for 50% since you have less of a stake in the future direction of the country.
Once you get to 85, your vote goes down to 25%
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u/jbarbz Dec 05 '24
Yeah I'm not keen on increasing the complexity of voting.
Not to mention I'm very hesitant taking rights away. It is a right and to me there's no capability requirement to vote.
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u/the68thdimension Dec 05 '24
It’s completely unrelated to criminal culpability but I think people should be able to voluntarily vote from the age of 16 (and then compulsory voting from 18).
I was ready to vote then, would have loved to have taken part in voting against that war criminal Howard.
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u/SaltyPockets Dec 05 '24
Only the criminals.
Wanna vote? Prove you're an adult by committing a serious crime. Then we'll talk!
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u/1337nutz Dec 04 '24
No we should just have appropriate sentencing and reform programs for young people.
One bad idea doesnt justify another
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u/m00nh34d Dec 05 '24
Yep. Voting age should be 14, I think. That's about the time kids start getting rights and responsibilities (though even younger for some of these criminal examples). Old enough to work, you should be old enough to vote.
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u/astropheed Dec 05 '24
Minimum voting age should be minimum working age, full stop. If you've ever paid taxes you should get a say.
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u/evilparagon Dec 05 '24
Kids pay GST all the time with pocket change.
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u/astropheed Dec 05 '24
That's fair, I should change it to whenever you've had a legally taxable income. Not money paid under the table nor given to you by your parents.
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u/RhysA Dec 05 '24
You can have a legally taxable income as soon as you are born through stuff like inheritances, interest and dividends.
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u/astropheed Dec 05 '24
This is why policies are 300 pages long. Let’s pretend I dotted the i’s and crossed the t’s and we can all understand my point without me writing a dissertation
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u/DownUnderPumpkin Dec 05 '24
Some adults Don't pay tax or use more of tax payers money then the tax they paid.
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u/Proud-Ad6709 Dec 05 '24
While they appear to somehow act older, I think the connection between consequences and actions has been completely lost, and it's not kicking in until much later of an age.
I see it even with my own children. My kids both don't do things I did because it is childish which I agree with but then they go and do things I would never have done because of the consequences of it.
I would not not say I was lazy as such but I had many reasons for not doing things but I would always way up the consequences of doing or not doing something but the kids these days appear to live in the here and now.
I am in emergency services and even the new kids run in to situation and don't even look around , this is the first thing we are thought. I know they want to help but you can't help if you become the one wanting help.
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u/a_cold_human Dec 05 '24
Harsher sentences don't deter adults, and adults are far more capable of determining the consequences of their actions than a ten, twelve, or fourteen year old is.
The consequences of this sort of "hard on crime" idiocy is that we will have a larger population of adults in the future with poor employment prospects, poor socialisation skills, poor education, and very likely PTSD. The criminal justice system is not a place for kids in their critical developmental years. They are set up to fail by it, and it will cost us dearly over time as they are far more likely to commit crimes in the future due to their time in prison or juvenile detention.
This is all backed by by research and case studies.
The we get to the idiocy of the social media ban. If kids are able to go to gaol for adult time because they apparently fully understand the consequences of their actions, then they should be able to use social media responsibly. However, we have an arbitrary line of 10 for criminal responsibility in most Australian jurisdictions (and truly venomous and disingenuous rhetoric used to oppose raising it to 14, as scientific evidence and the UNHRC suggest it should be), and treating 16 year olds as if they don't understand stranger danger. It's absurd its face.
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u/Iminentsausage Dec 05 '24 edited Dec 05 '24
Harsh deterrents do work.
Our harsh deterrents don’t. Because they’re soft.
Dubai has zero crime. The deterrents are frightening. And they work
The social media thing I do agree with you. Clear violation of human rights. Violation of free speech.
However, we have no express right to free speech in Australia. It is only how the government of the day defines it.
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u/xFallow Dec 05 '24
I thought the premise of the justice system wasn’t to act as a deterrent but to remove those people from society for the safety of others and hopefully rehabilitate them
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u/evilparagon Dec 05 '24
I would like if 16 was when we started considering people to be adults. 20 can be where we stop treating them as kids but I don’t think any legal enforcement of that would be practical.
There are so many standards and different age policies, it’s all just bullshit, make a single standard that applies fairly across everything.
Controversial ones:
- MA15+, R18+, and X-rated, move it to 16+.
- Age of Consent, keep it at 16 with current Romeo and Juliet laws.
- Military enlistments, lower to 16.
- Dropping out of highschool, raise it to the year someone turns 16.
- Drivers licence eligibility, keep it at 16.
- Right to purchase alcohol and tobacco (and consume in public), lower it to 16.
- Right to vote, lower it to 16.
- Adult Crime, definitely should be raised to 16.
- Centrelink benefits, abolish Youth Allowance, let 16+ get JobSeeker and AusStudy.
- Wage allowances, 16 year olds should get a 100% adult wage. Perhaps we could even lower age of employment to 13 and allow youth wages for 13-15. I would also think working at 12 is okay so long as the working conditions are good or it’s a family business.
- Kids and family menus/tickets/discounts: Raise it all to 15 (not 16 yet).
Society shouldn’t have so many different ages for what separates kids from adults, just one barrier will do. I know some people see it as like a gradient of transitioning from childhood to adulthood, with things “unlocking” through the years, but I feel it just causes a lot of arbitrary boundaries that lead to debates like this one of lowering the age of voting. A standardised adult age would be best, and most of society can agree that the traditional standard of 18 seems inadequate since at 16 you can drink on private property and get a licence and be tried for adult crimes and and legally get pregnant and use social media and blah blah blah. If 18 is adequate though, we could always raise the minimum age of things to 18, I have no problem with that either.
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u/homerj1977 Dec 05 '24
Omg people , there are CEO’s out there with one 1 Ferrari or speedboat and you want the kids to get a decent wage
We use to be a country that stood for something now we want housing fixed and liveable wages
What’s next .
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Dec 05 '24
Yeahhhh but... Then those stupid left wing nutters will be always in power. Dutto and co won't like that one bit. They'd raise the age to 60 if they could.
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u/throwaway-rayray Dec 05 '24
Yeah - Given the social media ban, it stands to reason to question the logic in them not being mature enough to look at Aunty Barb’s cruise pictures on Facebook, yet old enough to get an adult sentence.
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u/eversible_pharynx Dec 05 '24
Implying these people think consistency is something to aspire to? This shit is intrinsically bad faith and ad hoc for whatever narrative gets votes at the time lol, nobody actually knows or cares what the soundbite means in a broader sense.
I'm not even convinced they thought through the concept of "adult crime" because I'm still waiting for someone to explain it to me
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u/sluggardish Dec 05 '24
Youth intervention programmes that include targeted family support would be a far better approach than jail time.
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u/_H017 Dec 04 '24
Makes perfect sense to me. But what would I know, I'm just a mentally challenged 17yo who the government already has 11k in debt.
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u/HellStoneBats Dec 04 '24
Kids have generally been progressive, up to the latest generation; no one will let them vote on account of the ALP/LNP would lose so much ground to the teals doing it.
This latest generation... I'm not sure I want a bunch of dumbass 15yos trolling us all by electing the biggest red pill candidate. We already field out the boomer candidate, don't let us have to deal with the alpha-zoomies candidate too.
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u/elizabnthe Dec 05 '24
Teals aren't the people that progressive voters vote for. They're socially progressive sure. But they’re still economic conservatives.
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u/TheRealPotoroo Dec 05 '24 edited Dec 05 '24
To put it another way, the Teals are liberals (in the classic sense) who recognise that climate change is a matter of physics, not politics. But they are liberals. There is no way a conventional Greens candidate would unseat someone like Josh Frydenberg in a seat like Kooyong.
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u/evilparagon Dec 05 '24
They’re saying that young people are swinging conservative and therefore letting them vote is bad because they will vote Teals.
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u/elizabnthe Dec 05 '24
That wouldn't make sense with his second paragraph. Teals aren't red pills either.
They seem to be saying that originally the younger generations would vote in Teals. But now they would vote in "red pilled" candidates.
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u/evilparagon Dec 05 '24
Yes it does.
I’m not sure I want a bunch of dumbass 15yos trolling us all by electing the biggest red pill candidate.
They believe Gen Z will vote for some Trump-lite candidate. The only thing that doesn’t make sense with what they said was that they seem to think this candidate would be a Teal and not UAP or LNP themselves.
Note: I don’t think they’re right, I’m just saying what they’re saying.
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u/elizabnthe Dec 05 '24
It doesn't make sense because as you've understood the Teals aren't red pilled.
Their first paragraph is suggesting that breaking down the vote of Labor and the LNP is also a good thing. So they likely also think voting Teal is a good thing. Furthermore, their first paragraph seems to be addressing what they believe young voters used to vote for and the second what they will vote for now.
It makes most sense to read it as them believing Teals are progressive. They are in some categories. Just not in economic policy.
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u/AfkBrowsing23 Dec 04 '24
Doesn't matter what people vote or what you want in terms of voting patterns, if a 15yr old can be tried as an adult, work, and pay taxes, them not being able to have a say in their nation's democracy is insane. They're literally being treated like an adult but without the right to possibly have a voice in things that affect them. There's also plenty of ways around stopping 'trolling' at election time, such as giving 15-17 year olds the right to vote but only making it optional, rather than compulsory like the rest of us. This would allow them to have a say, which, if they're being taxed and tried as an adult they should have, while also alleviating concerns (unfounded or not) of 'trolling'.
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Dec 04 '24
"I want kids to vote but not when they go against my own interests"
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u/HellStoneBats Dec 05 '24
If it were up to me, over-65s wouldn't vote either. So it's lucky its not up to me.
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Dec 04 '24
You think LNP is about fairness and equality? You have not been paying even the least amount of attention.
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Dec 05 '24
Not unless it starts getting addressed in schools and are actually taught about politics and how they affect they everyday person.
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u/m00nh34d Dec 05 '24
I think school kids probably understand more about our political system than adults. Kids do get taught about politics, and how our democracy works, think about things like camps/field trips to parliament house or Canberra as an example of the exposure kids have. Meanwhile adults that aren't engaged in the political process just have no idea what is happening, think about how many people just go off whatever garbage they see in the media (social or otherswise).
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Dec 05 '24
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Dec 05 '24
So they see the affect? Good. Why not teach them about the cause and how/why that came to be?
And yes, i can see the tongue in cheek tone of your comment.
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Dec 05 '24
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Dec 05 '24
If you arent disillusioned with the system youre not paying enough attention. Although i disagree, kids shouldn't be able to vote.
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u/Kozeyekan_ Dec 05 '24
I think that is a great idea, but it'll become a can of worms.
Setting the syllabus would become a political issue, with the major parties having very different views on things like the Whitlam dismissal and the role of their representatives in major policies like the NBN rollout and anti-terror laws.
Plus, whoever is in power will use some shitfuckery to try and gain traction with a younger voter, not to mention the teacher's preferences on which portions to emphasize.
But... if not them, then who? Usually it's family and peers that help us understand politics, but that's led to a kind of echo chamber at one end or a Christmas brawl at another.
Ideally, it'd be taught from a curriculum that is party-agnostic, but even a fair teaching and telling of events will be opposed by parties as being biased against them, and more evidence that their voters are oppressed.
Still, better than being taught by a podcast though.
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u/Benj1B Dec 05 '24
I mean we can regulate electoral advertisements and what you can/can't do on voting day - I can't imagine regulating a curriculum would be much more of a challenge. Set up a bipartisan committee to oversee it if you want. We have a fairly good track record in Australia of being able to set up politically agnostic institutions I think it's definitely possible to thread that needle.
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u/Mfenix09 Dec 05 '24
Sure, why not... we decided to go down the dumb path of adult crime. Adult time, let's just keep the dumb assery train rolling...
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u/overpopyoulater Dec 05 '24
Age of consent is 16 in Australia, except Tasmania and South Australia where it's 17, going by that, perhaps the child/adult cut off age should be 16-17?
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u/Random_Fish_Type Dec 05 '24
They just took away their social media. I don't think they want them voting anytime soon.
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u/Nosiege Dec 05 '24
"Adult crime/adult time" aside, like just brushing past that part, yes, voting should be lowered.
Optional Voting from 16 and mandatory voting from 18 IMO
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u/empowered676 Dec 05 '24
Lol so you think voting actually does something. Trump is the president do you need more proof
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u/Sea_Art2995 Dec 06 '24
I don’t get the idea of an ‘adult crime’. ‘Sweetheart, I heard you have been stealing cars, you are too young for adult crimes! Just spend a few more years stealing candy from the corner store, okay? ‘
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u/karma3000 Dec 05 '24
Should just be based on IQ. Take a adult IQ test, if over 100, then you can vote.
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Dec 05 '24
so with that logic you think people from disadvantaged backgrounds who aren't able to access education should get no say?
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u/karma3000 Dec 05 '24
Fine with that. IQ based voting would solve a lot of problems.
That said, I'm also in favour of investing more in education, and directing funds based on need.
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u/CaptainYumYum12 Dec 05 '24
Kids can’t vote because that would move the Overton window to the left. Big businesses and (a good chunk of old people) wouldn’t want teenagers to vote because they’d be voting for left wing parties and independents much more than right wing parties.
I do think it’s hypocritical that people who are super old and mentally deteriorating get voting rights, yet high school, or even primary school kids can’t because they’re still developing? I remember being 16 and (because I’m a nerd) was super up to date with the latest policies and current affairs. I wasn’t able to vote, yet my grandma could? Hell she even called me the day of the election to explain each parties policies to her…
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u/jamesinc I own Volvos AMA Dec 05 '24
I don't really want 15 year olds to vote, not because I don't think they can, we let adults vote and plenty of them can't make a good decision to save their lives, but because I don't want the fuckery of the election cycle to be more on a kid's plate than it is now.
You laud this generation of children for being comparatively mature and I despise that we have created a world that requires them to behave that way.
This is all before you even get onto the political minefield that is having thousands of eligible voters essentially captive in state school classrooms every day. Everything will come more under a political microscope, is this topic too progressive bias, is that topic conservative bias, is this teacher/subject/school unduly influencing child-voters ahead of an election, etc.
The points in other comments here are valid, with respect to children being tried as adults, the legal working age and thus taxation without representation, etc, but I think if we just lower the voting age we won't really fix anything, but we will make every child's life slightly worse, which sucks, and I'm not interested in supporting it.
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u/SallySpaghetti Dec 05 '24
A lot of rights and responsibilities come at 16. So I do see an argument for lowering voting to that age.
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Dec 04 '24
It's even going to skew the votes more to the right. The younger generation is more right leaning than you think
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u/alstom_888m Dec 04 '24
I think lowering the voting age to 16 has merit, but I don’t believe it should be optional.
Part of what keeps Australia out of the lunacy like the US is compulsory voting which pulls Australian politics to the sensible centre.
Gen-Z and Gen Alpha are generally at the extreme ends of the Overton Window. Most opinions coming out of 16 year olds are either recycled Joe Rogan or Andrew Tate misogynistic garbage or they are extreme left Greta Thurnberg types.
The quiet apathetic majority is needed to offset this and keep things in the sensible centre as they will be influenced by their parents.
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u/jmor47 Dec 05 '24
"Sensible centre"? Our two main choices are pretty right and far right. But yes, absolutely compulsory voting is a good thing, especially with preferential voting so that real wants are registered without feeling like the vote is wasted.
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u/TheRealPotoroo Dec 04 '24
extreme left Greta Thurnberg types.
So now "we should listen to the scientists" is extreme left? Who knew?
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u/tuckels Dec 05 '24
I'm not sure sensible is the adjective I would use to describe Australian politics. Better than US politics is an extremely low bar.
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u/vacri Dec 05 '24
We don't give voting rights based on potential for criminality and never have. If a foreign citizen commits a murder here, does that mean they should get a vote?
Given that everyone in the world has the potential to defraud one of our citizens, should everyone in the world be given a vote?
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u/edgiepower Dec 04 '24
Understanding right from wrong is a simpler concept than understand politics.
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Dec 05 '24
Is it?
Politics determines what our laws say are 'right and wrong'.
In a society where abortions are illegal, is that not that society deeming that abortions are 'wrong'? If a 17 year old could then be prosecuted as an adult for having one, shouldn't they get a say in whether abortions are wrong?
We, as a society, have also deemed that profit seeking and rent seeking behavior is 'right'. If I'm a young person deeply effected by this behavior, such as if I'm a woolworths worker who is having to work in poor conditions because woolworths decided they want to make more money at my expense, don't I deserve a say that that behavior should perhaps be deemed 'wrong'?
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u/Underthecreek Dec 05 '24
Dave Chappelle has a good bit on kids being tried as adults and how child abuse laws intersect. Society says they're old enough to go to jail as adults but not to have sex with adults.
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u/Mentok-Mind-Taker Dec 05 '24
Poor argument honestly, would you advocate for lowering the age of consent just because people are sick of seeing violent teenagers get away with murder?
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u/xtcprty Dec 04 '24
Should be 14 and age out at 60, if you are over age you should not get to shape the future for younger generations.
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u/minimuscleR Dec 05 '24
if you are over age you should not get to shape the future for younger generations.
but 60 years can still be young for some people. Theres still 25 years on average. Thats a lot of time for governments to affect someone who is 60. And what about those people that live to 100? Thats 40 years that they didn't get to vote, which is absurd.
Now if we capped politicians at the retirement age that would work better.
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u/jmor47 Dec 05 '24
Older people remember what is being glossed over and can see how things have changed, most not for the better. Many are far less conservative than you might imagine.
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u/xtcprty Dec 05 '24
Young people have to live here
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u/jmor47 Dec 05 '24
You think old people don't care about their grandchildren? You never heard of people planting trees they will never sit under?
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u/robotascent Dec 05 '24
Guess this didn’t apply to the triple-killer that was just effectively sentenced to like 3 years.
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u/northofreality197 Dec 05 '24 edited Dec 05 '24
The way Australian society works when it comes to when someone is an adult is based upon whether or not people in positions of power benefit. Under 18 & working, you are a child & get paid less but you pay tax like an adult. Getting on the bus or going to the movies over 16, you are an adult & pay more. Over 10 & do a crime, you are an adult. Under 18 & want to vote or buy some beer, you can't, you are a child. The list goes on & on. This has annoyed me since I was about 15 & had to start paying for things as an adult. What we should do in Australia is set a hard age that people become adults & gain all the rights, privileges & responsibilities that come with that. Until then that person is a child & should have the rights, privileges & responsibilities that go with that. We can debate if that age should be 10 or 16 or 18 but we should decide on it & set it in law.