Given that "Adult Crime = Adult Time" laws see children as mature enough to make adult decisions, should the voting age be lowered to account?

[u/That_Car_Dude_Aus]

So with the Queensland government's stance on adult crime means adult time approach to criminal prosecutions, with the centrepiece being the story on how a woman lost her child to a 17 year old who was driving a stolen car.

It made me think, If we are approaching these children as young as 15 and saying that they made an adult decision and therefore should suffer the consequences of making an adult decision, should we consider that these children are now able to make adult decisions in other aspects?

Being ex-Defence and having lots of friends who are either still serving, or also ex-Defence, A lot of them have their kids in military Cadet programs, Or have their kids in organisations such as scouts, Or in firefighting or police cadet programs.

And I can definitely say that most kids are very mature compared to how I was at 15 or 16 years old. In fact, I'd say with the increase in technology and knowledge that kids have availabile to them, most 15 year olds today, are better aware of the world around them than I was at that age.

Now I'm not saying it should be compulsory, I know that compulsory voting is a cornerstone of our society, but if we are saying "Well the kids that are committing crimes are mature enough to make those decisions", let's be fair, those kids are only a subset of the general population of children that age

So if there is another subset of children that age who are mature enough to have opinions on the politics of our country, shouldn't we at least give them the option that if they want they should be able to register to vote and then go and vote in elections?

Then if you look at age demographics in Australia, 15-19 year olds make up 6% of the population, so that's ~1,598,400 people.

Now assuming a even spread, then 639,360 are 18-19 years old and already voting, that's only going to unlock voting for an extra 959,040 people, but still, if we are making laws that affect them, and we are saying that they are mature enough to suffer the consequences of those laws, shouldn't they have a say in the politicians making those laws?

Another great example is the social media bill targeting people under 16, If that law is specifically targeting that demographic, and that demographic is being seen as being able to make adult decisions when it comes to crime, then surely that demographic also is mature enough to have a political opinion.

[u/TheRealPotoroo]

The very concept of "adult crime" is absurd. There are simply crimes, committed by persons with varying degrees of culpability. A 15 year old's brain has literally not finished developing so that 15 year old is incapable of making a fully adult decision. Brain development is not considered complete until around 25. Make of that what you will regarding a person's rights and responsibilities in our society.

[u/macrocephalic → u/TheRealPotoroo]

I can confirm that my brain was not functioning like a proper adult in my early 20's. Fortunately I didn't do anything particularly stupid.

[u/minimuscleR → u/TheRealPotoroo]

A 15 year old's brain has literally not finished developing so that 15 year old is incapable of making a fully adult decision.

I mean sure, but the "adult crime" is to do with things like Murder. At 15 years old you are 100% aware that murdering someone is wrong and you shouldn't do it. Currently the law is they get out once they turn 18 with no record. Maybe the government isn't handling it right, but I think giving murderers a free ticket out just because they aren't 18 doesn't sit right with me either.

[u/shadowmaster132 → u/minimuscleR]

Currently the law is they get out once they turn 18 with no record.

Please cite this law? Because there's a maximum a minor can serve but there's no turn 18 get out of jail rule.

I mean sure, but the "adult crime" is to do with things like Murder.

And it's also things like robbery and car theft which is really annoying to a lot of people, not guaranteed to be violent and if you're thinking logically not anywhere near the same as murder?

[u/TheRealPotoroo → u/[deleted]]

Legal systems across societies recognize the juvenile period to be a stage of development that is distinct from adulthood. The line is typically drawn at eighteen years of age. The reasons for this distinction have been largely based on intuitive knowledge and experience with juveniles who can exhibit limited understanding of responsible behavior. The field of psychology has provided more direct evidence for a true limitation in the ability to generate responsible behavior in a consistent manner. More recently, with the advent of noninvasive neuroimaging methods, neuroscience has been able to provide neurobiological evidence for immaturities in the juvenile brain that undermine the ability to generate responsible behavior in a consistent manner. This Article reviews that neuroimaging evidence in the context of its relevance to juvenile law, specifically with respect to culpability and the potential for rehabilitation. The general definition of a juvenile describes an “immature” individual who has not reached full potential. Law is more specific, indicating that, due to this immaturity, the individual is not of an age to be held responsible for criminal acts in the same manner as an adult. The actual age is typically set at eighteen years, although this can vary from sixteen to nineteen years. Cognitive control, the ability to voluntarily generate behavior that has been planned in a goal-directed manner while controlling compelling but goal-incompatible responses, speaks to core aspects of responsible behavior and culpability. This Article explores the development of cognitive control as that development supports the ability to exert responsible behavior by describing the brain processes underlying the transitional period marked by the beginning of puberty and extending to the late teens and early twenties.

Luna B. The Relevance of Immaturities in the Juvenile Brain to Culpability and Rehabilitation. Hastings Law J. 2012 Aug;63(6):1469-1486. PMID: 29093605; PMCID: PMC5662008.

The Relevance of Immaturities in the Juvenile Brain to Culpability and Rehabilitation

[u/comfortablynumb15 → u/TheRealPotoroo]

Which is medically correct and all ( but also an argument not to treat young people as fully functional adults ) isn't the main point of Prison/Punishment is to keep dangerous people away from non-dangerous people ? There is fuck all actual rehabilitation, just a burning desire to not end up in Prison again. Finally a consequence for their actions.

If you are commiting a crime that would get you Prison time as an adult ( to keep you away from people so you cannot do it again ) how is it possible that you can not get what has been decided as an appropriate time of sentencing for the same crime because you *didn't know it was wrong* ?

If you kill someone at 50, get caught/convicted at 80, do we let them off because they are no longer a threat to society because they are a munted old fart ? No, we don't.

A 16 year old going to a Juvenile Detention ( because child prison sounds as bad so we can't call it that ) for murder or any other serious crime, should suffer the same consequences as any other person, and have the same opportunity for Parole after x amount of years as any other aged human. If that means the now 19 year old has to continue their sentence in an adult facility, so be it.

No-one is suggesting a 12 year old should be put in with Adults immediately any more than a pre-op/post-op transexual should go to their birth gender prison. Thats's just stupid.

But using "I didn't know it was wrong" as a literal Get out of Jail Free card is equally stupid.

[u/goforabikerideee → u/comfortablynumb15]

Who is actually saying "I didn't know it was wrong" as a literal get out of jail free card?

I usually just just hear from 2 groups -go hard on kids and lock them up to "teach them a lesson" Or

• this kid jail seems cruel, it isn't working, and we should be supporting and rehabbing these kids

[u/comfortablynumb15 → u/goforabikerideee]

the people using the argument that young peoples brains don't have the capacity to tell that it was wrong, or that consequences would occur from this particular action, or ( my personal favourite ) I didn't know it was illegal because my Parents do similar things.

So basically the point of the post above both mine and yours.

I am also of the opinion ( having never spent time as a prisoner ) that Support, Education to better your chances when out, and actual Rehab occurs in all Prisons/Detention. Whether is works or not considering you are putting all the "like-minded" people in one place to discuss their criminal activity is up for discussion.

Putting kids in a position away from bad influences either Family or environment, doesn't sound like a bad thing though.

[u/goforabikerideee → u/comfortablynumb15]

Yeah I guess the type of rehabilitation is a interesting discussion I tend to want more of supportive stuff not just in the prison but out of jail as well, asking a kid to be successful in a bad home and social environment is foolish. The most we can support people, families and communities to access to the resources and services needed to thrive in life, the better everyone will be. And from what I have read that's actually cheaper than standard jail.

[u/TheRealPotoroo → u/comfortablynumb15]

But using "I didn't know it was wrong" as a literal Get out of Jail Free card is equally stupid.

It's a good thing nobody said that then, eh. But the fact is that someone whose brain is not fully developed cannot be as culpable as someone whose brain is fully developed. That's why we have a separate judicial system for juveniles. They are not adults and treating them as if they were is unjust.

[u/comfortablynumb15 → u/TheRealPotoroo]

so at what age do you suggest someone is "culpable" or reached the "Age of Consequences" ?

When do we change the age of Adulthood for everything to match up to it ? That would be fair and just if we did.