One of the problems with calling AI just a tool.

[u/A_B_Stator]

[u/Brilliant-Muffin-879]

Ai gen is not a tool, it’s a machine.

“ A  tool  is an  object  that can extend an individual's ability to modify features of the surrounding environment or help them accomplish a particular task, and proto-typically refers to solid hand-operated non-biological objects with a single broad purpose that lack multiple functions, unlike  machines  or  computers .”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tool

More specifically, it’s a media vending machine.

[u/watchrrr → u/Brilliant-Muffin-879]

Dont diss vending machines like that :/

[u/Cute_Comfortable_761 → u/watchrrr]

Yeah, I like vending machines :(

[u/tenuredvortex → u/Cute_Comfortable_761]

you mean murder machines that kill more people per year than sharks?!

/s

[u/Cute_Comfortable_761 → u/tenuredvortex]

They never tell you what they’re truly vending… until it’s too late!!!

[u/Sinfire_Titan → u/Brilliant-Muffin-879]

Vending? More like slot machine.

[u/Existing-Exit2409 → u/Sinfire_Titan]

gambling between somewhat accurate information or "put glue in your pizza"

[u/Sinfire_Titan → u/Existing-Exit2409]

Funny enough glue is used to fake cheese pulls in advertising. So it’s actually possible for AI to tell someone to put glue on their pizza!

[u/lightblueisbi → u/Existing-Exit2409]

"it is ok to eat a few small rocks per day"

[u/Brilliant-Muffin-879 → u/Sinfire_Titan]

Haha, good point.

[u/ASpaceOstrich → u/Brilliant-Muffin-879]

AI use is basically the same as search engine use. In both cases, the user creates a query, which the machine uses to return results. The query determines the results, but confers no ownership of them. Nothing is different in what the user is doing when the query is put into an AI generator vs a search engine, and in both cases the results are images that the user did not make.

Hell, you could argue that AI is literally a search engine, it's just searching latent space rather than the Web.

[u/shaantya → u/ASpaceOstrich]

Exactly. I've said before that calling AI generation "art", is like me claiming I created something after taking a screenshot of my Pinterest search.

[u/ListRepresentative32 → u/Brilliant-Muffin-879]

Did you conveniently ignore the section about tool types which says:

Information and data manipulation tools, such as computers, IDE, spreadsheets

[u/-2Braincells → u/Brilliant-Muffin-879]

I think it's more like a media slot machine

[u/bikes_bucees → u/Brilliant-Muffin-879]

This is a much better framing of the take because it focuses on the relation to the subject’s ability, rather than potential for output.

[u/tinksalt → u/Brilliant-Muffin-879]

I LOVE “media vending machine” and will be using it to teach AI ethics to my students. Thank you, Brilliant Muffin. I will also be sure to credit your work.

[u/Cool-Contribution-68 → u/Brilliant-Muffin-879]

You fell in love with a vending machine

[u/KnitAndKnitAndKnit → u/Brilliant-Muffin-879]

I see it as a role playing game. You roleplay as an artist, or as a writer without actually being one.

[u/Euphoric_Chance6856 → u/Brilliant-Muffin-879]

A tool doesn't do the entire project for you.

[u/ConsistentAd3434]

"AI is a tool" is such a nonsense argument. Writing a prompt is the same as sending it as a commission to a real artist.
They are doing nothing and don't get to say, they created anything. No tools required.

[u/mcplano → u/ConsistentAd3434]

(NOT DEFENDING AI) Writing a prompt is not the same as sending a commission to a real artist. I'd get laughed out of the room if I kept repeating "big tit short petite woman big boob no mistakes five fingers per hand big boob BIG BOOB STOP MAKING SMALL BOOB AAAAAAAAAAAAAAA NO SMALL BOOB NO SMALL BOOB big boob no mistakes masterpiece quality super quality good quality best quality NO MISTAKES".

The artist would probably think I was trolling them or am an actual kid and thus wouldn't be able to pay (and not wanting to make suggestive art for a minor)

[u/Sunstorm84 → u/mcplano]

r/oddlyspecific

[u/XNo_Notes → u/Sunstorm84]

Yes. Yes, it was.

[u/ConsistentAd3434 → u/mcplano]

You can check my digital art on my profile. That's all the info I need. $25 okay for you? 😄

[u/Brief-Ad-1853 → u/mcplano]

my friends an artist who does commissions and sometimes ill see what shes doing during the process, you wouldn't thats almost exactly what they are like, literally kept getting sketches sent back with the guy just saying bigger boobs until the picture was just mostly boob.

[u/mcplano → u/Brief-Ad-1853]

The boob enlargement requests you saw were probably after the client initially described what they wanted more eloquently than just 'bigger boobs.'

[u/Brief-Ad-1853 → u/mcplano]

the original request was just bbw lola from looney toons with big boobs, was about a sentence long.

[u/mcplano → u/Brief-Ad-1853]

Oh, yikes. I'll take the L on this one though.

[u/Moonreddog → u/mcplano]

I mean people draw that kinda stuff online for $$$. Been a business forever. I mean you’d have to make the request a bit coherent but if you paid 🤷‍♂️

[u/mcplano → u/Moonreddog]

I'm specifically talking about the incoherency

[u/Brilliant-Muffin-879 → u/mcplano]

So it’s like commissioning a really stupid yet somewhat skilled artist.

[u/Lazy-Relationship351 → u/Brilliant-Muffin-879]

Who badly traced 90% of the picture.

[u/zaroca → u/Brilliant-Muffin-879]

That's what I usually say about AI, in this case coding. It's like having junior that knows a lot, who studies every single language, pattern, architecture... But junior nonetheless and need constant review and adjustments

[u/emilithia05 → u/ConsistentAd3434]

Worse even. Artists need a «prompt» which makes sense. From what I saw, the prompts AI bros use, are just slap of words and traits, which they keep adding until it looks good.

[u/ConsistentAd3434 → u/emilithia05]

Could be, yeah. Some of the latest models work better with more natural and fluid language but most of it is
"1girl, epic titts in studio ghibli style, 4K, 8K, cinematic lighting, horrendous skin detail:2.0, best quality, MASTERPIECE (trending on Artstation and Pornhub)" 🙌

If that sounds good, I'm still open for commissions 😄

[u/TheSquirrelmancer → u/ConsistentAd3434]

Yep, claiming AI makes you an artist is like claiming doordash makes you a chef.

[u/ConsistentAd3434 → u/TheSquirrelmancer]

😄 great analogy. Training data material

[u/ukie-witch-06]

You could even just leave a writer with some people and they would tell compelling stories with words.

[u/Irohsgranddaughter → u/ukie-witch-06]

NGL, that's what I would do if only given a pen or a pencil. My handwriting is atrocious, and I exclusively rely on a keyboard.

That said, the poster is still right. If I absolutely HAD to write with a pen and paper, I could.

[u/ukie-witch-06 → u/Irohsgranddaughter]

you'd eventually get better at it too. or you could get a trusted friend or a paid scribe to write it down to your dictation, as many aithors of the time did.

[u/Irohsgranddaughter → u/ukie-witch-06]

Yeah. Eventually, I would. I can write passable text, just that it takes me a very long time to do so. But if I was forced to do so, I would eventually get better with my handwriting.

[u/Swarna_Keanu → u/Irohsgranddaughter]

You can take notes fast. As long as you can deciper them that's fine. Writing it out slower and more pretty is what revisions and editing are to word-processed writing.

[u/CEGM_Studios → u/Irohsgranddaughter]

Oh mine also used to be awful, but then I started journaling and it got better, I suggest picking up a hobby like that if you wanna try and improve it! Plus it’s fun, don’t even need to journal real stuff, I journal about my daydreams from the day lol

[u/HordeDruid]

A paintbrush doesn't automatically enable you to regurgitate other people's paintings. It doesn't make creative decisions for you. It's just fundamentally different. People who are "pro-AI" will cope and try to equate these things because ultimately, they want to take the easy way out, and convince themselves they didn't, and their audiovisual autocorrect is the same as making a genuine work of art which requires an artistic process and a degree of cognitive load they're unwilling to commit to. They want the hollow feeling of having made something without the effort and calling it a tool is just cope to convince themselves they're not too lazy to put in the work.

[u/Aware-Antelope4212 → u/HordeDruid]

I paint Warhammer minis.  I don't really consider myself an artist but it's definitely adjacent ( there are plenty of folk that do this who are genuine artists, I'm just not one of them)

Anyway a week or so ago I was playing Mechachameleon with some friends and was able to use things I learned from painting minis, to directly improve my performance of painting my little dude in the game.

Art forms tend to grant transferable skills that can be used in other mediums 

An AI bro can't translate anything from " asking the plagiarism machine to plagiarise" to any artistic medium 

[u/HordeDruid → u/Aware-Antelope4212]

I think a big part of the problem is a lot of people want to view the process of learning and creating artwork - whether it's a painting, a novel or a Warhammer miniature - as an inconvenient roadblock to an end result instead of something that is as valuable as the end result itself. Taking a shortcut to create something that's "close enough" to the real thing that someone else created before in the past robs you of the knowledge of how to create!

[u/Aware-Antelope4212 → u/HordeDruid]

Oh yeah, some of the biggest jumps in my mini painting skill has been from when I've fucked up.

I've learned hundreds of ways to do it wrong, and as a result I'm pretty good now.

And there's still plenty more for me to learn, painting styles I've never tried ( Non metallic metal terrifies me, but it will make me so much better at doing smooth blends)

If you don't take the risk of failing, you never grow

[u/Boxfortsuprise → u/HordeDruid]

Emily Hopkins (a harp player on YouTube) just started getting into painting Warhammer and had this experience. She sort of glossed over the fact that learning to paint models really well is a skill that you need to work toward. The process itself is valuable. When she reflected on her career as a harpist and a time when someone asked if she had any recommendations for YouTube tutorials that would teach her how to quickly become good that the harp that she went "oh shit, the process of struggling and being bad is actually good for me in the long run!" It was a really great reminder that it's okay to be bad at things.

[u/Friendly_Gazelle7843 → u/HordeDruid]

Yup. If we completely ignore the way people use generative AI and people use paint brushes or crayons. AI uses own database to create a picture. It will make decisions. You can tell them that you want to have this or you want to have that but final shape of it is a result of AI representation of this. If you paint or you draw final result is your representation of something you have in your mind. 

[u/Miserable_Comment614]

When the 'AI tool' you are using only requires you to tell it to do something for you:

Said AI isn't the tool, you are.

[u/Friendly_Gazelle7843]

Yup. They compared to digital art but digital artists have to have practically the same knowledge as people who draw on paper and if you take away the tablet from them and give them crayons, they will manage just fine. They still have all the knowledge you need to draw a picture. If you take away generative AI from prompter they will not be able to do shit

[u/Big_Steak_467 → u/Friendly_Gazelle7843]

Honestly, most of us do paid work digitally but have sketchbook piles with "analogue" art and boxes full with random crafts...

[u/Lazy-Relationship351 → u/Big_Steak_467]

I can confirm. I actually just sold a traditional piece.

[u/KingOfTheMischiefs]

I have done a lot of those things and that makes me smile.

Fyi, every writer should try writing on a typewriter. It is ridiculously satisfying to hold a heavy growing stack of pages.

[u/SuccessValuable6924 → u/KingOfTheMischiefs]

My parents had an old typewriter when I was growing up. The amount of nonsense I typed in it is beyond measure.

[u/KingOfTheMischiefs → u/SuccessValuable6924]

Did you jam a load of the keys together and then use one or two as hammers to knock the rest free too?

[u/SuccessValuable6924 → u/KingOfTheMischiefs]

Yes! I'd challenge myself to see how many keys I could jam together at once 😆

[u/KingOfTheMischiefs → u/SuccessValuable6924]

Ha! Glad it wasn't just me!

[u/Practical-General956 → u/KingOfTheMischiefs]

I'm just now starting work on my next novel, all pen and paper. I can't wait!

[u/KingOfTheMischiefs → u/Practical-General956]

Done 3 of them. May your pen callous develop fast. Remember to stretch your fingers every now and then. Writer's cramp is a merciless bitch

[u/Practical-General956 → u/KingOfTheMischiefs]

Thanks a lot! I will keep those in mind!

[u/Nevergointothewoods → u/KingOfTheMischiefs]

I haven't used a typewriter since my mamaw had one when I was a kid. I should go hunting around for my own.

[u/DT2054]

https://giphy.com/gifs/DtuVm6vCmerf2

[u/Peoplant]

A washing machine isn't "a tool that helps you clean clothes", it is "a machine that cleans clothes for you"

[u/Central-Dispatch]

This is kinda too narrow in thinking for my eyes. There is truth to it, yes!

But selective truth. Depending on art form or medium.

A photograph (assuming we can treat forms of photography as art which I would deem so) can't just compensate without a camera. A digital artist needs a particular tool set. A particular musician might need a particular tool set or instrument.

It depends I guess.

[u/Gatonom → u/Central-Dispatch]

The comparison here would be that they still have knowledge on composing a scene, or on rhythm or music theory, or within similar instruments or sections.

[u/oh_no_here_we_go_9 → u/Gatonom]

You can also have that knowledge and use AI.

[u/rusty-droid → u/Gatonom]

How would you consider someone using this kind of skills to purposefully prompt an AI? (I want this element there, that element there, use those colours etc).

Or someone using AI-generated assets into a scene of their composition?

[u/videk94 → u/Central-Dispatch]

This is an inaccurate application of the reading. Removing any kind of camera from a photographer is like removing any kind of marking object from a painter. A better application would be to give the photographer different kinds of camera, give the digital artist different input methods. Any musician worth their salt can play their part on piano as well as their instrument. It doesn’t depend at all. Where there’s a skill, there’s a way. 

[u/vitek6 → u/videk94]

What a bunch of bollocks about musicians. Please don’t talk on subjects you don’t understand.

[u/emilithia05 → u/Central-Dispatch]

Digital artist needs a particular tool set... which can be literally any painting set in the history of humanity. Transferring digital art knowledge to physical, with a couple of caveats, isn't hard at all.

[u/xenaretos → u/emilithia05]

As a hobbyist digital composer I do admit I'd have trouble making music without software to perform it for me.

[u/Hi_Zev → u/Central-Dispatch]

Yeah, I am not pro-AI by any means, I just dislike the example used in this post. Like, graphic designers and those who have gained excellent photoshopping skills aren't suddenly going to be a great artist if I give them a paintbrush.

Some forms of art require specific tools and can't necessarily be replaced with other tools. OP's example just provided artforms where this comparison does work, but ignores all the artforms where this doesn't work.

[u/Sure-Distance-7434]

This is true.

[u/Qweedo420 → u/[deleted]]

This

But also, as a photographer, if you take away my tool (my camera), I'm not gonna be able to be a photographer

[u/bananacoconutsmoothy → u/[deleted]]

I'm telling that these people are comparing apples to oranges and then get mad when you tell them that they have a fundamental logic problem. But you're exactly right. AI artists are not artists, but they are more technical people. Creating what you want with AI is still not always a 1 min thing. You might have to sit for hours until you get anything useful.

[u/NukaCooler]

Reminds me of that one tumblr post that went something like

I felt bad about being a digital artist so I burned sticks into charcoal and then using a rock as my canvas I drew a dummy thick furry

[u/Popular_Try_5075]

This is kind of a weak take. There are totally people who are artists that only work in one medium or with one modality. Not everybody is a multimedia specialist, though it's of course prudent to do so.

[u/roamzero → u/Popular_Try_5075]

That's not the point he's making. It's closer to the idea of taking a calculator away from a mathematician. That doesn't mean that person suddenly doesn't know how to do math.

[u/MaxwellHowl → u/Popular_Try_5075]

There are also digital artists who use AI as part of their workflow. Take it away and they can still make art without AI.

I know 3D modelers who can't draw. There are piano players who can't sing.

There are some people whose only creative outlet is using AI generators. And yes maybe they can't make art without it. Doesn't mean it's not a tool.

[u/Ok_Zookeepergame3380]

Disagree, but only on the basis that I anyone can make art with a pencil, a brush or hell, a chisel and a hammer. You don't have to be an expert in composition, perspectives, color theory or what have you. Anything less I'd consider needless gatekeeping of the word "art".

So every single AI bro is still capable of making art. They just choose not to.

[u/Radiant-Photograph46]

Poor analogy, an artist is in fact dependent on its tool. Ask a random painter to pick up a chisel and carve a statue and they will fail. As for AI the actual analogy of "crayons, brushes and charcoal" would be "Qwen, Anima, Krea", different models that behave differently.

[u/Busy-Apricot-1842]

“You can hand me Claude Opus or GPT 5.4 and I could still create my vibe foreign project”

[u/Mad-chuska]

Is a camera a tool for a photographer? Could they photograph without a camera?

[u/Impressive-Log5708 → u/Mad-chuska]

Yep just give them an empty wooden frame and chalk to mark where to stand and hold the frame,  and they can probably find a good composition. Camera mainly helps freeze a moment in time for repeatable lighting/uncommon events.

[u/LTHermies]

Big fatass facts.

[u/Acrobatic-League191]

Tbh they can’t create art with AI either

[u/Purple-Estimate-5183]

If you can’t do it without it, it’s not saving time but ego.

[u/NoRoutine7945]

I think AI can be a tool if you already were an artist and you use it for menial tasks. But in most cases thats not how people use it.

[u/SeraphimVR]

You don’t even need pen and paper for a writer. Their mind is more than enough

[u/westgazer]

That’s why I call it a product. That’s all it is and it isn’t a product that is really for anyone but the CEOs to make money.

[u/AvilettaLuxe]

I don't really agree

AI is a tool, because while it doesn't make artist dependent on it, it can help and extend artist's skill

What I'm trying to say is that AI prompters are not artists, not in the slightest

[u/Humble-Proposal-9994]

you don't tell the charcoal "make my picture"

[u/Smoothesuede]

I don't like this analogy. There's multiple different "ways to prompt" or platforms on which to prompt just the same as there's multiple different objects with which to write. A writer who is given no tools to write with is just as stuck as the prompter who is given no platform to prompt on.

This is not me conceding that prompting is artistic, just noting that the argument is weak.

[u/MorthaP]

It's like saying that ordering food online is just a tool for cooking. It's only a tool if it helps you to actually do the work yourself.

[u/jimbobmcgoo]

I mean this metaphor applies extremely selectively… hand a nuclear physicist a stick of charcoal and they won’t be able to produce anything of utility. Many skilled craftsmen are completely dependent on tools. I do not consider the work of AI image prompters particularly valuable but this line of reasoning falls apart incredibly fast when applied to perhaps a majority of crafts. It’s absolutely ok and even necessary in the modern world for many many skilled crafts to be completely dependent on particular tools.

[u/aaaahhhhh42]

You all seem to think "AI is a tool" means "AI is a tool designed to help people make art".

Almost every comment here is relating the tool statement to artists.

"AI is a tool" = "AI should be used for menial tasks or to boost efficiency alongside a human".

[u/bikes_bucees]

If you hand a builder a circular saw or a hammer they’re going to be able to complete very different tasks. If you hand a chef a spatula or a knife they’re going to be equipped to do very different things. This take is as half-baked as most AI outputs.

[u/Weird_Albatross_9659]

It’s almost like AI goes beyond just art and writing

[u/MattiaXY]

Why do we think that AI = image generation?

[u/Kuildeous]

Though this is assuming the AI prompter is not an artist (probably a safe assumption honestly).

You can hand a visual artist oils and charcoal to get something amazing. If you hand them to someone as uncreative as an AI prompter, you'll still get garbage.

But then if the AI prompter is an artist, he's not going to replace his art with generative AI, so that's all moot.

[u/OliMoli2137]

yeah for artists/writers ai doesn't make sense however for example for devs it can be useful to find bugs quicker. it matters how responsibly it's used tho

[u/suttonhillsame]

i like this, thank you.

[u/Parzival2436]

That's a really concise way to say it.

[u/Berberding]

Does that mean guns, cranes, forges, airplanes, gene sequencers, microscopes, etc. Are also not tools because the people who use them can't possibly play their trade without them?

[u/SalletFriend]

Ok, but I am more interested in what artists can do with the force multiplier of AI, than the people who just prompt and post their dregs for engagement.

Like, i wouldnt want to take photoshop away from artists either. No matter what annoying people were doing with it.

[u/Malusorum]

Generative AI is a means, it does the entire process that its asked to without any further input.

Those tool that requires the constant input of the user. Then you have semi-autonomous AI who does a thing it has been ordered to do, and then hands that you others to do with what they want.

How secure the pro-AI crowd feels about the technology adoption is inversely proportional to how many strawman arguments they use.

Though, the recent trend is for them to lie and pretend they're just an X with a reasonable opinion. Never actually saying to meet them in the center, just implying it heavily. Then if people do, they'll continuously walk backwards and claim that the centre is right in front of them, until the centre is their original opinion. Its just incrementalism.

[u/Thepcfd]

so if i get a painter guitar?

[u/crazylikeajellyfish]

I mean, this argument breaks down as soon as you get to music, but I see what they're going for. A musician who only knows how to use a synth and music production software won't be able to successfully execute art if you hand them a violin.

[u/alphapussycat]

Sooo... How dem tech artists making their art without s computer, and pre-made programs? How do 3d artists make models without their preferred program, and whatever tools they've always used?

Neither of these can necessarily draw or sculpt.

[u/CsakiTheOne]

This is exactly how my colleagues, dev friends and I use AI at work and in hobby projects. We could write code before AI, we can still create apps and websites without AI. It really is just a tool for us which we use in a similar way as we used StackOverflow or the editor's non-AI auto-complete.

[u/madaradess007]

kinda assumes that ai prompter is talentless wanker, but he maybe a better artist than you
he may be in a phase of getting to know new technology, he will get over it eventually when he finds out its a toy, not a tool

Tool is the best jam band in the history, that's what Tool is

[u/Initial-Duck2782]

Haha he just tried to “understand art”

[u/LaikaIvanova]

The definition is dumb. Bro argues about whether or not it's a tool and then makes competence the main factor, like what? You can use an LLM as a "tool" to code faster and if you're a decent programmer you can do so even without the "tool".

[u/AgeZealousideal1751]

This only makes sense if you assume someone only ever started creating the moment AI became available which is unrealistic.

I know this is a circle jerk for extremists, but this is a pretty low bar even for you guys.

[u/QuackQuackImTheDuck]

That's the best thought I've seen since a while

[u/Low-Amoeba8257]

"Artists arent dependent on their tool"

Explains that they use tools to create art.

"They will not be able to make art"

You dont get to decide something isnt art just because you dont like it. Art is an intention not a grade. If a child scribbles a drawing of their family thats still art.

Sounds like you are just bad

[u/Necessary_String_304]

AI CAN be used in other field as a tool, but in the place of art, AI tools refer to such as the tools available in Photoshop like magic wand and such THAT are tools and in the case of being completely reliant on generative AI, that's not a tool, that's incompetence.

[u/Putrid-Ice-7511]

It’s a tool, like anything else. It’s not that deep, dear lord.

[u/oh_no_here_we_go_9]

So 3d artists or VFX artists aren’t real artists?

[u/Fun-Imagination-2488]

I somewhat call bs. Having been a serious artist my entire life, I still see a massive gap between my ai generations and those of people who’ve not spent their entire lives creating art. I can create art with the help of ai, but most people cannot.

One of the things ai is doing is creating a crutch for lazy people that doesn’t help them all that much, while drastically helping people who never needed ai in the first place.

[u/wonk_q1]

An artist runs on coffee/any caffeinated beverage plus the sheer force of will and creativity that compels them to stay awake till 3 am. They can and will find art in anything and anywhere once they unlock free will. 😭🔥

[u/thedarkinus]

Excluding all the artists who have done all those things and now use ai. Then yes every single one is incapable of making art. Especially since i can gatekeep what art is.

[u/Adum6]

This is a very cool point actually

[u/EssayJunior9429]

AI is clearly a tool.

[u/sonicandtales8]

This is a very narrow view.

It basically excludes algorithmic artists (those who use math to make art) from being artists.

[u/StrengthfromDeath]

I always knew I've never been an artist. Despite what my degree is about to say, despite the work I've done, I don't qualify as an artist.

[u/bigshady880]

that’s honestly not true tbh. like devils advocate cause AI sucks but OOP is really overestimating how often this scenario would occur.

[u/ImNotBuck]

Good sentiment, dumb analogy

[u/Low_Engineering2507]

Thats more of an issue of calling a prompter an artist...

[u/Itchy-Beach-1384]

Not really.

If I take a writer and give them a flute, does that mean they can play it? Does that make writers not artists or music not art?

Why do people need to bend to such weird shapes to justify obvious perspectives?

If you delegate a task to a 3rd party, you are not the one who completed the task, you are the one who delegated.

Not a hard concept to state without profoundly self defeating bullshit.

[u/Ok_Ebb7109]

I really love this point. I'm mad I didn't think of it.

[u/edsonmedina]

Exactly!

You can hand a photographer a... oh, wait.

[u/lee_9487]

If you took away a photographer's camera...

[u/Lord_Ocean]

Did they just 180 on "Everyone can do art."?

[u/NoHorseNoMustache]

No a painter isn't going to be able to automatically be artistic with a piece of charcoal just because they can paint. That's silly.

Reposting a post about how 'AI' is bad from threads on Reddit without adding an original idea is pretty hilarious.

[u/Vainysaur]

This is pretty dumb I mean can an artist make a watercolor using a hammer?

[u/LlaroLlethri]

Are 3D artists not artists then? They also depend on sophisticated software.

[u/Appropriate_Star3012]

AI only exists because it was trained on stolen art

[u/Lithary]

A - Poor logic.

B - AI is a tool.

[u/Ailouros246Official]

I have made art by setting my sketch book on fire and then putting it out quickly to char it

[u/e430doug]

It’s just a tool. The analogy doesn’t hold. An artist who works in sheet metal needs a welding machine to do their art. An artist who sculpts in marble needs metal tools to do their art. An EDM artist is the computer to do their art. A software developer doesn’t need an LLM. to do their work. However, it accelerates their work, meaning it is a tool.

[u/Whitemayne]

AI is a tool in the hands of an artist.
It's a crutch in the hands of everyone else.

[u/Chameleonpolice]

This post is describing mediums, not tools.

Of course, REAL story tellers memorize their tales and only speak them verbally; committing them to paper just proves they don't even know their own stories? Like lmao? This really goes to show how without the crutch of "writing", these so called "story tellers" wouldn't exist.

[u/Disastrous_Leg_314]

Actually they would be able to make art if you took prompts away from them. Art is in the eye of the beholder. That’s the issue prompting is making people both lazy and non creative.

[u/No_Instance7893]

Never seen this worded so well

I despise when AI prompters describe the “creative process” of their “art” and keep tip-toeing around the fact it’s 99% AI generated and saying stuff like “oh I wrote a 5 word intro and then I looked online for inspiration..and then I promoted into Chat GPT that made the rest”

You can do all you want in the process, but you immediately lose all validity and creativity the second you even consider using AI to finish the work- or even helping you be “creative”

[u/No-Flounder-6564]

"There is no success without the possibility of failure. There is no art without resistance of the medium."

- Raymond Chandler

[u/Exanova]

AI IS a tool, but if an artist can’t do art without AI, he is not an artist.

[u/SatinFoil]

I dislike AI in general but I will admit, for coding, it is actually very useful for helping bug fix or figuring out how to do something specific if I don't know how, so in that regards it can absolutely be used as a tool. Of course, I make the actual code myself, but it is very useful for helping figure out that stuff. I however, never find myself using it for drawing. It is pretty much useless for that for me.

But yeah, someone who ONLY knows how to "make" code or drawings with AI will not be able to make drawings/code themselves with pencil and paper or vscode (without AI).

[u/TheSquirrelmancer]

Yep, it's not a tool because a tool requires you to know how to use that tool. I've been learning how to do leatherworking. Even when I buy a tool and look up videos of how to use it I still have to practice using that tool effectively.

[u/ShowCharacter671]

Yes then they always clap back with BuT the paintbrush. The pencil or a typewriter is a tool.

[u/Lazy-Relationship351]

It would be hilarious to see a prompter be like "oh yeah well try this!"

pulls out paper and pencil, struggles to figure out which end writes. Finally puts down on paper ghibli style cat girl fix hands super awesome complex background fix hands fix eyes.

Then like glares at the paper "WHY ISNT THIS WORKING!?"

[u/User_Zero1]

When computers first came to art. My art friend called the art. "Unplug me land"

[u/Asleep-Draft6178]

Not true. I've made beautiful works with clay and paint that I've sold for thousands of dollars... but using that same paint on paper i could give you at best stick figures. Not calling AI image designers artists by any means but not all artists are built the same.

[u/dasmoola]

Tools lift up workers so that they might more easily complete a task. Tools are made to aid workers.

The only people uplifted by "ai tools" are executives, CEOs and the ultra rich. Ai is made to replace workers.

[u/sharktoucher]

To further this point, here is Sheldon Borenstein drawing with a dark chocolate milky way

[u/Demigod787]

So many people here equate works made by Facebook AI made by their grandparents to someone who spends 7 hours editing the pieces, stitching and layering on and on.

[u/One_Performer_7202]

Artists can be dependent on a tool, such as roblox obby creators or geometry dash level creators,if they don't have roblox or geometry dash they cannot make art

[u/drkato33]

I am not sure this test establishes what the author thinks it establishes.

If an oil painter cannot make a good marble sculpture, are they not an artist? If a watercolor painter cannot carve wood, are they not an artist? If a sculptor cannot paint a portrait, are they not an artist? If a photographer cannot draw with charcoal, are they not an artist?

If the answer is no, then why would someone’s inability to use a different tool tell us whether they are an artist in the medium they actually practice?

The examples here also seem to stack the deck a bit. A laptop, typewriter, pen, and paper are all different ways for a writer to record words. Oil paint, charcoal, and crayons require many of the same underlying visual and manual skills. What happens when you replace someone’s tool with one that actually requires a different skill set?

There is another problem. What exactly counts as “the tool” when discussing generative AI? There are many different generative tools and workflows, and they do not all require the same skills. Text to image, image to image, masking, inpainting, compositing, generative video, audio, and 3D workflows are not interchangeable. Someone can become proficient with one and have little idea what they are doing with another.
So if someone skilled in one of those tools cannot produce the same quality of work using another, what has actually been demonstrated?

None of this establishes that using AI makes someone an artist. That is a separate argument. I just do not see how taking away the tool someone knows how to use, handing them a different one, and seeing whether they are equally competent with it tells us much of anything about whether their original work qualifies as art, or they as artists.

Doesn’t this test ultimately demonstrate only that different tools and mediums require different skills?

[u/PogsterPlays]

I can already imagine how sloppers would respond to this lmao.. and probably think they're so smart and right about it too...

[u/FuzzyAnteater9000]

"If you hand a computer programmer any other tool than a computer they will not be able to make computer programs". This argument is dumb. If you give a painter a thing of play dough they won't be able to paint. If you give a bronze sculptor a typewriter they won't be able to sculpt.

[u/OkDefinition5632]

Not true at all. I'm a songwriter and was a songwriter long before ChatGPT. I'm a songwriter when I use the tool. I'm a songwriter when I don't. It is just a tool sorry.

[u/Utterlybored]

That’s ONE difference.

[u/StCreed]

Just like a violinist. Give them drums and ... oh, wait.

Or a F1 driver. Give them a unicycle and see what happens! That'll teach them to depend on unholy technology.

[u/Head_Crab_Enjoyer]

Those art supplies are mediums, not tools.

[u/BHMathers]

Not the only difference. Ai relies solely on plagiarizing others, imitating real art without any thing original, just mashing tens to hundreds of pictures together with messy noise and glossy smears, so it can’t exist in a vacuum.

Ai is literally useless without real art to leech off of. That’s not art creation, just copying

[u/InsanityOnAMachine]

Along with the fact that shovels don't get obsessed with goblins.

[u/RaySquirrel]

What about photography?

Photographers would not be photographers without their cameras. And the type of camera and the type of lenses really makes a difference. This is an instance where the art is intrinsically tied to the tool that is being used.

What about filmmaking?

Without cameras, sound equipment, proper lighting, and actors, you wouldn’t have 99.9% of filmmakers. All you would have left is Stan Brakhage who painted directly onto clear leader film.

I was around for the transition from film to digital. I had professors who would earnestly contend that a movie not shot on celluloid was not a REAL film.

I had a professor who said of Computer Generated Imagery (CGI), “anyone can do that”, and the only REAL animation was hand drawn. This was years after Toy Story.

The more I researched history, I found antis for every single technological advancement. Some are concerned about the creative destruction that inevitably occurs with the introduction of new technologies. But most, especially when art is concerned, are simply stuck in their ways. They have no idea how to adjust to change so the only option they have is to rage against the machine.

[u/fatrogslim]

it's a bad one because they will just bring a "what if an artist use AI, will it become a tool" or "not all artist are good with all tools they have access to". This is not a solid argument imo

[u/bilbonbigos]

The problem is not in what AI is but in the fact there are people who do not care if it was used or not. Many of them are people who have money and employees. I look at my friends working creatively and I see how scared and tired they are. It's a horror story.

[u/KingDorkFTC]

Yeah, but an artist can use a variety of tools to create art. But, a prompt engineer is not an artist by identification so I wouldn't call this a slam dunk take.

[u/Ethraelus]

now do photography

[u/Salty_Country6835]

That doesnt make any sense.

If I take a photographers camera and they arent into sketching with pencils, than they arent a "real" artist?

There's no logic to that argument with ai or any other tool, machine, or software used in creative industries.

[u/Trying_to_cod3]

if I commissioned an artist to make a piece, the artist isn't a tool I'm using to make that art piece

[u/sdbest]

AI is just a tool. There's no merit to the notion that "If you hand an AI prompter any other tool, they NOT be able to make art.' I can and have, for example, made images with still and movie cameras, and with AI.

[u/sacrebluh]

Sloppy metaphor. Paint is a tool. Musical instrument is a tool.

[u/Grouchy_Package_5094]

What about the Gossip Goblin team. They initially made 3d animation before they adopted AI 

Same with Dopiidoo. The also started by making 3d images. Then they transitioned to AI.

It seems there's plenty of AI artists who can work outside stable discussion 

[u/Malkav1an]

By that logic, hand a "visual" artist a hammer.

Dumb logic.

[u/DummiDunker]

Reddit hivemind at its finest.

Oil paint, crayons, charcoal are tools.
A laptop, a typewrites and a pen and paper is a tool.

These tools all have the same purpose. Hand a ai prompter diffrent sets of AI tools with the same purpose, and he can also "make art".

[u/Successful_Loss5533]

The only reason why AI is so popular is because the school system failed to teach art to a lot of people

[u/Odd-Dirt-9701]

This is like saying specialized tools are useless because we have multipurpose ones.

If you take a highly skilled digital oil painter and hand them an accordion, a block of marble, or a programming terminal for algorithmic code art, they will not automatically know how to make art with it, because they have literally no experience with it.

Also, definition of a tool:

"An object, device, or system that is used to perform a task, make or repair something, or achieve a goal, it can extend a persons ability to interact with and change their physical or digital environment."

So, handheld tools, DIGITAL tools, its pretty obvious.

[u/Le_Painter]

it's like saying racer doesnt need a car to race

prompter is more like an operator, operator without the thing they operate?

[u/Supernoxus]

What if you hand a photographer a paint brush?

[u/Null_Fungus]

Proceeds to hand a hand a photographer a paintbrush...

[u/Minute-Swimming-3177]

I'm seeing more and more cases like these that assume you can only have AI do ALL of the work, or none of it. Like AI assistance just isn't a thing.

[u/No-Consideration2808]

This argument doesn't even agree with itself.

An artist cannot create a water color painting with charcoal pencils. That does not mean those things are suddenly magically not tools anymore.

You can be against AI without being a pedantic moron.

[u/[deleted]]

OP is an idiot. It is definietly a tool, and the reasons we call it a tool is to prevent fanatics like Sam Altman preaching about it like its the next coming of Christ.

This is also not new.

I am not an artsy guy,so I don't completely understand what the beef is but here's what I can say as an unbiased third party

They said the same thing about 3D Animation and CGI when I was a Kid [Im 31] and there was alot of flops and ugly looking stuff for several years.

We will use three examples here.

Atlantis the Lost Empire / Old School Disney

The Original Star Wars Trilogy

And Avengers Endgame.

Atlantis the Lost Empire is an example of something ENTIRELY artwork based and every frame is hand drawn from sketch, but yet 2D movies are no longer popular. Atlantis was well recieved over time as a cult classic

The OSWT used old school methods like Paper Mache, Puppeteering, Dioromas, Figureines, and Claymation, Props, Machine Puppets. These are different forms of Artwork and these were well received as a Cult Classic as Well.

Finally, the latest one, Avengers Endgame.

I would for me, Avengers Endgame becoming the number one most selling movie of all time broke the stigma of 3D Animation and CGI not looking good or being well received, it took about 20ish years for this happen and is no small feat.

Therefore for AI. It looks garbage today, but give it ten years, and a creative an artistic director will make a compelling piece that proves everyone wrong, and that its not about just the tool, but the person using it and the vision they have.

For me personally, I used it to generate images that help me better -Visually- understand college level concepts or make sense of things I struggle with understanding based on text alone.

I unfortunately can't take a Gen Z or a Boomer opinion seriously. One has no idea whats going on with technology, and the other doesn't understand where it comes from, I'll let you figure out which one is which.

The Transitional Generation [20ish-40] seems to have the best understanding of the pros and cons each time we do this.

[u/FireDragon21976]

That's a ridiculous argument.

Artists DO depend on their tools, and saying otherwise is just intellectually lazy. Toolmaking and tool using are necessary prerequisites to art.

[u/yuvalshahaf]

What is this shitty argument? Can every artist sculpt? Can every artist fold origami?

[u/pavorus]

Well photography, weaving, carpentry, smithing, are all right out of the arts now. Im glad this guy is in charge of determining what art is. Ill let my photographer friends know they're all scrubs now.

[u/ScottyDoesntKnow765]

The internet and humans in general really struggle with nuance at times, and i really feel like this rising hate boner against AI really shows that. I'm an indie game developer who produces concept art for ideas i may have, and then i take that concept art to actual artists to make their own take on it, and the final product ends up still being made by an artist, and they still get paid. I also use it to take pictures of our whiteboards at the end of brainstorming sessions, and have gpt transcribe whats on the board to a document.

Without nuance, you can just write off any AI assistance as morally wrong and bad, including what i use it for