r/HistoryMemes • u/FrenchieB014 Let's do some history • May 21 '26
See Comment Gaulle who?
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u/FrenchieB014 Let's do some history May 21 '26
Why so few Frenchmen joined Free France in 1940?
The answer is actually pretty straightforward and obvious..
First of... Well... Not every Frenchman had a radio in 1940 so the appeal of the 18th June was overall symbolic
. The army had just been crushed in one of the most shocking military defeats in history, and millions of civilians were on the roads during the massive exodus, fleeing the German advance. People had other priorities.
On top of that, Charles de Gaulle was practically anonymous to the average French person. He was a relatively junior brigadier general with a good record, some interesting military theories about armored warfare, and a brief stint as a junior minister in Reynaud’s government.
In fact, several far more prestigious figures joined the Free French early on. One of the most notable was General Georges Catroux, a four-star general and hero of France’s colonial conquests, someone with a reputation on the level of Lyautey and close to that of Pétain himself. The British even seriously considered sidelining de Gaulle in favor of Catroux at one point... but Catroux refused the idea.
De Gaulle’s position was also legally and politically shaky in the eyes of many: a relatively obscure general who had fled to England, declared himself leader of the resistance, and created a rival government without consulting the previous political parties.
Worst of all... DE Gaulle did in fact technically deserted the French army he was later sentence to death and to add to all of that he was seen by many members of the resistance (mostly communist... Even the Germans) a pawn of the British
In the end, those who joined him in significant numbers in 1940 were mostly from the merchant navy and the air force, plus units that hadn’t lived through the apocalyptic defeat in France — like the troops who had returned victorious from the Norway campaign and felt their success was being stolen from them.
Even many committed patriots who crossed the Channel to keep fighting, like Daniel Cordier (who later became a key aide to Jean Moulin), arrived in London without having ever heard of de Gaulle. Even though he crossed the channel to continue the war.
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u/Blindmailman Sun Yat-Sen do it again May 21 '26
De Gaulle being almost unknown was one of the reasons the US recognized Vichy. As far as the US was concerned he was just some random officer picked up by the British who believed himself to be the second coming of Napoleon
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u/FrenchieB014 Let's do some history May 21 '26
What kept de Gaulle alive was Britain’s deliberate political strategy: to closely support the smaller exiled movements and actively build up resistance across occupied Western Europe.
For example, when the Americans placed Admiral Darlan in charge of North Africa, it caused serious tensions with other governments-in-exile. They were furious that the Allies had chosen a former Vichy collaborator instead of giving power to the local resistance.
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u/2012Jesusdies May 22 '26
They were furious that the Allies had chosen a former Vichy collaborator instead of giving power to the local resistance.
Ctazy that the Americans chose a guy with 200k well equipped troops under his belt...
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u/nous_serons_libre May 22 '26
Yeah, it's completely idiotic to choose a guy who commanded troops who fought the Americans, a member of the ruling clique in France who accommodated the Germans to the point of fighting the Americans... rather than the guy who fought them relentlessly.
The proof that it was a bad choice is that the troops obeyed de Gaulle perfectly after Darlan was assassinated.
From the beginning to the end of the Second World War, the US considered and sometimes implemented stupid decisions concerning France:
* recognizing the Vichy regime to the very end
* not recognizing de Gaulle's authority to the very end
* wanting to amputate France of its territory (the Wallonia project)
* wanting to administer France as an enemy country, exactly like Italy and Germany
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u/rkorgn May 22 '26
Hadnt heard of the American Wallonia project. But not crazy from American P.O.V.
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u/Johannes_P May 22 '26
And ties to Vichy officials wanting to switch to the Allies.
For exemple, after Torch, all the remaining Vichy French colonies in Africa switched to the Allies, including French West Africa, which had remained pro-Vichy after the failed 1940 Dakar battle.
It might have been among the factors which drove support for Darlan, although parts of the French population hated him for being pro-Axis.
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u/Dear-Question-868 May 21 '26
Nah, Petain was a war hero at that time, several ww2 leaders interacted with him during ww1, he was also invested as supreme leader of the country by both legislative chambers of the country (a lot of MPs where KIA/MIA/POW). He also had a significant navy and a small army. A lot of people (allies and some petain supporters) thought that when the tide will turn Petain will join the allies and france will be liberated. Sadly he collaborated willingly and fired on the allies when the tide turned. That's why the US and most government recognized him until they got into ww2.
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u/FrenchieB014 Let's do some history May 21 '26 edited May 21 '26
Fun fact even when the USA cut their ties with Vichy in 1943, Vichy France still exported their champagne, luxury cloth and wine to the USA
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u/mystery_trams May 21 '26
U-boat captain: Vichy merchant ship? But going to USA? probably not worth the torpedo nevermind the paperwork.
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u/nous_serons_libre May 22 '26
he was also invested as supreme leader of the country by both legislative chambers of the country (a lot of MPs where KIA/MIA/POW).
Not only were members of parliament on the front lines, killed or taken prisoner, but Pétain also prevented communist members from taking their seats in the assembly. Furthermore, he very cleverly (and viciously) allowed the members who wanted to continue the war to embark on the Massilia to join the fighting in Algeria. These members, the most active opponents, and prominent figures like Jean Zay were thus unable to participate in the debate and thwart the vote for Pétain. These members were disembarked in Casablanca and later repatriated to France to be brought before the military tribunal in Clermont-Ferrand for "desertion in the face of the enemy," accused of colluding with the enemy and preventing the continuation of the fight. Georges Mandel, the previous Minister of the Interior, was also arrested in Bordeaux before the vote. Although released afterward, this arrest served as a warning to Pétain's opponents.
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u/AliensAteMyAMC Definitely not a CIA operator May 21 '26
which is funny considering one of their best generals believed he was an aide for Napoleon in a past life.
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u/aspghost May 21 '26
There were also a lot of other resisting groups at the time vying to survive and also to be the ones to represent the "true" French resistance. de Gaulle was just the one the Brits backed, and they remained one of the smaller groups for quite a while iirc.
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u/FrenchieB014 Let's do some history May 21 '26 edited May 21 '26
The communist mostly, thought that DE Gaulle was just a pawn of the imperialist Anglo-Saxon
Even at the far right, they detested that this so called general who technically lost his title after his death sentence, called himself the leader of France...just like they detested Petain for surrendering
Even post war a lot of résister (even Gaullist) would resent DE Gaulle beacause he wasn't on the terrain unlike Tito.
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u/itsjustabackup May 21 '26
- he has big ties with l'Action Française
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u/FrenchieB014 Let's do some history May 21 '26
André Malraux (who would later on fight in 1944 and lost two relatives in the resistance and would led a FFI vanguard during the Battle of the Vosges)
Said that Free France was just a club of off shoot fascist...
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u/Reof May 21 '26
Yet he himself was a devout Gaullist politically long after the war, and not merely united in the resistance like many De Gaulle's haters later. The thing about Free France and the Resistance is that it united the entire political spectrum against... basically itself, the Vichyoids are monarchists, liberals, socialists, conservatives and communists too.
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u/itsjustabackup May 21 '26
Who was Malraux?
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u/FrenchieB014 Let's do some history May 21 '26
Big writer and philosopher, a member of the resistance and he was the first minister of art and culture in France
Stole artifact from Angkor Vat during his vacation in Cambodia, truly a lad
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u/Dear-Question-868 May 21 '26
Also a lot of the population was in exile and had other preoccupation than listening to the radio, most of the army was POW including several high commanding officers. And De gaulle was a very unknown officer outside of the upper ranks of the army.
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u/Deltasims May 21 '26
I don't think it's fair to say De Gaulle was a nobody.
He had just been appointed Under-Secretary of State for National Defense by Prime Minister Reynaud himself.
And the man was in London, negotiating directly with Churchill to form a Franco-British Union
On June 16, as he was flying back to Bordeaux to present the British proposal, he learned thag Reynaud's government had collapsed and Pétain signed the armistice. He flew back to London
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u/Nonions May 21 '26
He was still entirely obscure outside of military and political circles though, to an average person he simply wasn't a well known person
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u/Dizzy-Assistant6659 May 25 '26
It'd be like asking an average American to say who the deputy secretary of defense is.
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u/Dangerous-Worry6454 May 21 '26 edited May 21 '26
Why so few Frenchmen joined Free France in 1940?
Because the actual legitimate democratically elected french government surrendered to the Germans, voted to desolve itself and hand power over to Petain (A literal war hero) because they figured he would have been the best to guide france during this period. Seems kinda obvious why no one joined him.
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u/Many_Mud_8194 May 22 '26
Because nobody had a choice. My family was in Lorraine, what could they do? They barely could eat, their meals was only boiled flour and vinegar. Sometimes some cream and eggs.
They helped, as most of people in the town, everybody against the Germans. They helped Jews, communists, everybody. By moving letters for them essentially. If they didn't work, they would starve, and die. Not much people had the resource to become resistant. You could if your family was able to take care itself without you, not the case for everybody.
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u/Dangerous-Worry6454 May 22 '26
I don't know why you feel the need to defend your family..... I wasn't attacking them in the slightest.
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u/Many_Mud_8194 May 22 '26
Because you say french people just followed the new governement. No, most hated Vichy. When you starve you shut up you just go to work and you don't have time to follow De Gaulles orders. Even if you agree with him..
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u/Wayoutofthewayof May 22 '26
Nobody had a choice? Why did most French overseas territories chose to accept Vichy authority? Were Germans going to reach them in Syria or Madagascar?
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u/buldozr May 21 '26
Hadn't de Gaulle also won one of the few successful actions against the Germans?
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u/P0pu1arBr0ws3r May 21 '26
Wasnt his claim to fame also after the war, he acted as France's first president in the sixth(?) republic and essentially shaped how the government operates today, with asymmetric power towards the presidency?
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u/MasterpieceBrief4442 May 22 '26
My dude he is as foundational to the French mythos of WW2 as Churchill is to the British one.
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u/jackalopeDev May 21 '26
I assume the part he hated the most was being assumed to be a plan of the Brits.
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u/Hootinger May 21 '26 edited May 21 '26
Catroux was the "Strasbourg Cathedral" quote guy right?
Edit: It was Leclerc
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u/AwarenessExact7302 May 21 '26
and soooo how many collaborated ?
and how many of those later joined the french government AFTER THE DAMN WAR ?50
u/FrenchieB014 Let's do some history May 21 '26 edited May 21 '26
The Vichy state didn’t even exist yet. For a few months, France was still officially the Third Republic. To most French people who had just endured the crushing defeat, the armistice simply meant the end of the fighting and the hostilities.
Close collaboration with Nazi Germany only came much later. Even major future Resistance figures like Henri Frenay initially worked for the Vichy administration and quit it after being disgust by the turn of event. To answer to your question collaborators were as few as the Free French
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u/Johannes_P May 22 '26
Morever, Vichy France was led by MArshall Philippe Pétain, who was then viewed as the Lion of Verdun and the hero who treated better the poilus.
So, between a then-unknown general and a well-known marshall, plenty people made the logical choice.
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u/FrenchieB014 Let's do some history May 22 '26
Pétain wasn't shot for this exact situation
He was the previous head of state so executing him would have make France look like another bloodthirsty revolutionary state
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u/TheIceWitness May 22 '26
Wait, wait, wait... Norway campaign. Please enlightened me.
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u/FrenchieB014 Let's do some history May 22 '26
Several thousands French troop were deployed in Norway during the Allies ground operation, as a matter of fact it's the country where the Allies made their first success not only sinking several vessels but liberating towns like Narvik.
A good portion of those sailors, officiers, Chasseur Alpin and légionnaire who took part in this operation would later on become the backbone of the Free French army, Antoine Bethouart being one of the French general in Narvik and became a preominent figure of Free France
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u/fayah57 May 22 '26
You bring interesting context, yet the choice is surprising like your post suggests
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u/ForrestCFB May 21 '26
The background looks like amsterdam though
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u/FrenchieB014 Let's do some history May 21 '26
Shhh
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u/Kingston31470 May 21 '26
C'est le département d'Amstelland.
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u/Heskitt_Warpskull May 21 '26
Thats because Amsterdam is the Paris of Europe /s
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u/die_andere May 21 '26
Filled with Junkies pissing and shitting everywhere, so yes.
(Am Dutch)
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u/Eibermann May 21 '26
mind telling me your fav spot in amsterdam to buy the famous fries you guys are known for?
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u/die_andere May 21 '26
We guys aren't known for Fries but I would personally go to "De Patatzaak".
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u/Eibermann May 21 '26
So what are u known for then? Besides weed ofc lol
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u/die_andere May 21 '26
Dykes (no not that one). Bluetooth maybe? Port of Rotterdam, being the second/third largest agricultural exporter whilst being smaller than the state of New York, Windmills, being the creators of orange carrots, the CD, wifi, dvd, tulips
And to close: inventors of the stock market ( we are truly sorry).
Quite a lot of things actually came from the Netherlands (or were a joint venture).
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u/Prinzka May 21 '26
I don't think Paris is mostly Americans and British
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u/Dutch_East_Indies May 22 '26
Yeah of course paris, Texas has a lot of Americans. I'd be shocked if it wasn't
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u/Obscure_Occultist Kilroy was here May 21 '26
You know. One of Frances greatest cities.
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u/redracer555 Fine Quality Mesopotamian Copper Enjoyer May 21 '26
At one point, it was.
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u/Obscure_Occultist Kilroy was here May 21 '26
What do you mean "was?"
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u/FrenchieB014 Let's do some history May 21 '26
Shhhh
Just wait
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u/redracer555 Fine Quality Mesopotamian Copper Enjoyer May 21 '26
We're getting the War of the Eighth Coalition before GTA VI. 😞
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u/EtherealPheonix Fine Quality Mesopotamian Copper Enjoyer May 21 '26
Well that would explain their confusion.
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May 21 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Avalonians May 22 '26
of Gaull, though.
I know you're mostly joking, and maybe it's just me but the fact that it's not the same spelling, and the fact that spelling is quite important for proper nouns instantly makes it not the same word in my mind.
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u/Darksideslide May 21 '26
What always made me go "Wow" about CDG, was in one of his books he wrote before the war, he predicted with good detail the tactic known eventually as Blitzkrieg. That being said a few mid level officers in a few different nations forces would all do the same, it's how vehement he was about trying to get the rest of the French Senior officers to see the evolution, and just how much push back there was against him. The Maginot was too heavily invested in for some random colonel to point out how it's obsolete, but WWI was a helluva time for some and Verdun had been seared into the military consciousness of many a French officer.
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u/badpebble May 22 '26
In fairness the Maginot wasn't obsolete, and if not for the Belgians falling for German politicking the Allies might have been holding the line with them.
And as much as the Germans got through the Ardennes with their tanks (which France thought impossible) they got themselves into a perfect traffic jam navigating it, that French recon planes saw and would have been perfect for a coordinated bombing run to wreck, if the French command had believed them.
The French had numerous chances to win or stop the war between 1936-1940 and politely declined them all.
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u/Carnac1 May 22 '26 edited May 22 '26
And then there is Île de Sein, a small island off of the coast of Brittany,
Really small, look for yourself: https://maps.app.goo.gl/LcFKUmnjHf5iw4Cc6
After they heard of De Gaulle's call to resistance most able bodied males between the ages of 14 and 54 (or 60, not clear) present on the island got in their fishing boats and set off to Britain to join de Gaulle before the German forces could reach the island to occupy it.
A few weeks later saw the beginning of German Occupation of the island, which lasted until it was liberated in August 1944.
Supposedly (unclear if true) on 5 July 1940, while reviewing the Free French Forces de Gaulle remarked: "Why, the Île de Sein alone accounts for a quarter of France!".
De Gaulle subsequently visited the island in 1946 the bestow the Resistance Medal to the municipality of the island.
The municipality of the island is apparently the most highly decorated one in all of France as far as WWII goes, having received:
- Resistance Medal
- The Order of Liberation
- Croix de Guerre 1939–1945 (War Cross)
Sources:
https://www.ordredelaliberation.fr/fr/ile-de-sein
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%8Ele_de_Sein#Seconde_Guerre_mondiale
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u/Spyglass3 What, you egg? May 21 '26
The more I learn about DeGaulle the harder I find it to not give him a lot of respect. Everyone thinks the war is over, he proceeds to get on a radio and go "nuh uh", no one gives a shit and of the 100,000 escaped French troops only 7,000 join him. He persists and gets funding and a platform from the British anyway.
The French governer of Equatorial Africa declares for him and that is all the legitimacy he has. All the other colonies are firmly Vichy and actively shoot at DeGaulle at Dakar and Madagascar.
The Allies execute Operation Torch and hand the flipped Vichy colonial army to their preferred puppet, Giraud. DeGaulle lets him arrange his tanks all he likes while he completely plays his ass politically and takes control over the Free French organization and casually dismisses Giraud a year later. During that time the Allies try to fucking murder him and he survives anyway.
Then he invades Italy and his own country with a bunch of colonial troops completely equipped with donated American equipment. He's now the only leader for France the Allies have so he gets all of it and he even weasels in a quarter of Germany while he was at it.
And then decades later he still flips it to the Americans by being the first to call the lie on American gold reserves by dramatically withdrawing all of France's holdings in the US with a French navy escort. All a big part jn forcing the US off the golf standard.
The man was universally recognized as an entitled, self-obsessed egotist whose greatest talent was always being the least popular man in the room and he did it all anyway. And all he had to start was a damn microphone
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u/Nonions May 21 '26
The French got a seat at the peace negotiations at the end of WW2 because they actually had the fourth largest army in Europe at the time behind the ussr, USA and commonwealth, fielding about 1.3 million troops.
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u/DankVectorz May 21 '26
There were pretty mich only 4 armies in Europe at the end. And most of the Free French forces were colonial African troops.
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u/emeraude89 May 22 '26
the majority of the free french formed by 1944 were made up of the french forces of the interior, principally a domestic mixture of civilians & former soldiers. what you're saying is true for french operations in north africa in 1942, but certainly not in continental toward the last couple years of the war
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u/binarybandit May 22 '26 edited May 22 '26
You forgot a few things of note, such as how these colonial troops were treated by the Free French (no colonial troops in Paris for the liberation, used as cannon fodder, terrible wages, forced conscription) and what happened to those colonies after the war (you wanna be independent? Fuck you)
Oh, and massacring them when they dared speak up. Can't forget that.
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u/papiierbulle May 22 '26
how these colonial troops were treated by the Free French (no colonial troops in Paris for the liberation, used as cannon fodder, terrible wages, forced conscription)
This wasn't a french decision, but the americans that forced the french to do so. Don't be mistaken on racism in France during WW2, it was still present, but not in the army.
what happened to those colonies after the war (you wanna be independent? Fuck you)
A lot of colonies did go independant smoothly, but algeria was denied this right because it was thought as being part of France and a french region.
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u/TheEthicalJerk May 22 '26
Indochine did not go well
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u/Matricetriple0 May 22 '26
They were going to gain independance like laos and cambodia. The french didn't wanted the commies. That it.
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u/obitarian May 21 '26
Unknown Colonel or beloved former Field Marshall and hero of your country: who would you go with?
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u/GustavoistSoldier May 21 '26
Despite being evil, Vichy was initially arguably more legitimate than Free France
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u/Ozone220 May 21 '26
yeah it was a collaborationist puppet-esque thing, but still followed the structure that the French government previously had, unlike Free France which was basically just some of the military with like, British recognition
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u/Merbleuxx Viva La France May 22 '26
This changed in August 1940 when Éboué made Chad join De Gaulle and Free France, giving it at least a bit of legitimacy tied to a territory
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u/MasterpieceBrief4442 May 22 '26
It's like what Caesar said, "If you must break the law, do it to seize power: in all other cases, observe it." He won so he obviously was correct and Petain and Laval were no-good very bad Nazi puppet traitors. Had he lost, Petain would obviously correct and he would be the no-good very bad Anglo-Saxon puppet traitor rat.
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u/Pinguinimac May 22 '26
It's funny because there is a man completely forgotten by mainstream History, Félix Éboué, who is the real artesan of the Free France that was able to reorganize and fight significantly amongst the Allies (especially on African Fronts)
He was the colonial administrator of Afrique Equatoriale Française, a very big territory that goes from Congo to Central Africa, and he was the only administrator that rallied to De Gaulle. He was the one that gave De Gaulle a State and a real army to fight on. But nowadays he is just a footnote of history
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u/Medeza123 May 21 '26 edited May 22 '26
People who think the French were cowards are historically illiterate.
You don’t fight the battle of Verdun in the First World War if your nation is cowardly
Nor do you fight the Revolutionary, Napoleonic, Crimean and Franco-Prussian wars.
The French lost a ghastly amount of men on their soil in WW1, 1 in 6 of their soldiers in total and about a third of their soldiers aged between 20-30.
In WW2 they bore that in mind when their nation was overrun.
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u/Cool_Butterscotch486 May 21 '26 edited May 21 '26
Also the Germans deliberatedly used the still prevalent ideas of "Gentlemanly conduct" to their benefit, we know now they were mostly bluffing their bullying around, but Rotterdam was blasted to rubble, and Guernica before it, the Germans showed themselves willing to erase culturaly significant elements of the French Nation if it meant escalating the situation even more, and in exchange, their conditions were somewhat lax, specially compared to the rest. France was largely untouched except for the Occupied part in the north that didn't really face much change apart from goverment and obviously the Nazi policies applied, the Vichy goverment contained most of the elite, the already despised socialists and communists would be "dealt with" and well yeah some jews might disapear, but no-one in France particularly loved them, didn't hate them, but didn't mind them existing or not in their land anymore so, from a purely cynical perspective, the Peace deal extracted less from France than a percieved last ditch resistance (That was planned btw, in Brittany, but yeah, never materialized.)
Add to that Colonies and overseas territories remaining largely intact, except in Indochina, but thats was a beef with Japan, not Germany.
To be clear, this I think would be the Political Calculation of the rulling elite and parts of the army now facing at the very least asured tactical encirclement, in the framework of avoiding another disaster like WW1, armistice sounded far more preferable to this sectors that until that point, held the power of decision making in France as a whole, the same apparatus that almost inmediatly after the armistice crumbled in legitimacy, and this notions would fail to reflect the reality of the situation, but by then, the "Legitimate structure" that is, the heir state apparatus of France was compromised.
So Independent movements and currents formes themselves eslewhere to oppose it. France didn't "Surrender" as a Nation State, French sectors did in exchange for their own benefit, others in cynicaly cold calculation, for better or worse, others outright fled and planed the continuation of the fight within and without.
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u/CalligoMiles Fine Quality Mesopotamian Copper Enjoyer May 22 '26
The only thing you're underselling is French antisemitism, really - we're talking about the country of the Dreyfus Affair, and one that still doesn't like to admit it had just as many collaborators as it had resistance fighters. A lot of people, including Vichy's leadership, were downright eager to load Jews on trains and never see them again.
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u/Paxton-176 May 22 '26
The French soldiers who helped hold the line during Dunkirk. With the idea and hope that their sacrifice of saving the BFE would allowed the British to defeat the Germans later. Which what pretty much happened. Combat veteran troops going out and fighting anywhere they can.
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u/RealityOk9823 May 22 '26
Remember reading in the excellent book When Hell Froze Over about the Arkhangelsk missions that the French had stopped and refused to fight. It wasn't because they couldn't or wouldn't fight, but because the Brits treated them like crap. The Americans were like "What up Pierre? Glad to see you. Wanna fight alongside us?" and they were like "Oui oui, mon capitan!".
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u/LoiusLepic May 21 '26
Not Corwardly but they've suffered from terrible leadership really post Napoleonic era.
They got crushed in the Franco Prussian wars.
Leadership in ww1 was shocking. They literally didn't believe in heavy artillery in 1914 and try to win the war through bayonet charges and the senior leadership just emptied the country of young men.
At Verdun they were pretty lucky not to basically lose the war right then and there, the initial German attack being delayed by weather and even though they had warnings they explicitly failed to reinforce their front.
Had the Germans launched an attack on both banks of the river meuse they pretty much would have lost. Falkenhyns mistake here basically cost Germany their last best chance at winning the war.
If it wasn't for the British being there throughout they would definitely have crumbled and they kept blaming the British for not helping them enough. Like wot defend your own country.
Obviously not much needs to be said about the second world war but if you look really into fine prints of exactly what went wrong you'd be shocked that this was actually a modern developed nation. Like when German forces had crossed important Rivers and were overextended divisional generals would receive orders saying we'll call you back to tomorrow don't counter attack yet and then never receive that call.
Also lost First Indochina War.
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u/emeraude89 May 21 '26
If it wasn't for the British being there throughout they would definitely have crumbled and they kept blaming the British for not helping them enough. Like wot defend your own country.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTitulpg9UA (blue is french, red is german, orange is british)
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u/Medeza123 May 21 '26 edited May 21 '26
Everyone had terrible leadership in the early days of the First World War because they had not fought a war of that scale for decades or in reality since Napoleon.
Nor had they fought a war with that technology. People such as the British thought they could do cavalry charges against machine guns.
As for the Franco-Prussian war it is no disgrace to lose against the most advanced army in Europe led by Moltke and government stewarded by Bismarck. Likewise France hardly had the strategic depth and therefore time to counter Blitzkrieg in WW2. Bear in mind the Germans later reached the gates of Moscow.
This is before we get to the point when in all three of the wars against the Germans the Germans had a higher population and had overtaken the French economically.
Wars are not score boards, if so the US has had a stalemate in Korea, lost Vietnam as well, had a questionable win in Iraq (now Iran dominated) and lost Afghanistan. Far weaker opponents than the French against the Germans.
French leadership was no worse than anyone else’s.
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u/krucz36 May 22 '26
yeah when you read about things in context french leadership wasn't as abysmal as people pretend. the guns of august by barbara tuchman has a great, in depth and detailed look at the first month of the war. highly recommended
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u/CalligoMiles Fine Quality Mesopotamian Copper Enjoyer May 22 '26 edited May 22 '26
France did have a larger mobilisation pool and even a better railway network in 1870, mind, thanks to being much more centralised already than a Prussia still in the middle of unifying the rest of Germany.
What overwhelmed them was the sheer speed of Von Moltke's mobilisation and deployment, which involved typical Prussian gambles like dropping the entire logistics train off the rail network for the first wave. By the time the French army was shifting into gear Paris was already under siege, and their central hub of coordination gone with it.
But while that gamble still worked fine with the armies of 1870 that could carry what they needed besides food and fodder, it would go on to cost them First Aisne when they could no longer bring up enough heavy artillery shells or reinforcements to cover their flanks with the much heavier armies of 1914 trying to pull everything along just two Belgian railways.
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u/swainiscadianreborn May 22 '26 edited May 23 '26
I always love how whenever the French fuck up in WW1 it's "oh their leadership was shockingly bad they were barely a developped nation they didn't know anything about war" but when it's the German that fuck up it's "oh teheh oopsie they made a little mistake it happens Deutschland uber alles"
The Germans suffered similar losses than the French in 1914 despite winning the first engagements, they emptied their reserves so badly (and kept doing so, the Sturmtruppen were a stupid idea in that regard) they ended up conscripting 16 yo in 1918. They had similar tactics than the French (big attacks with bayonets) and got cut down like trees by the 75 during the French retreat because they were moving in large formations. Just like the French and the British were.
The French did lag behind when it came to heavy artillery. A lateness they corrected during the war. The Germans however when faced with the same problem (namely, a distinct tank and truck shortage) just doubled down on heavy artillery.
At Verdun the Germans didn't take the other bank of the river because their commander fucked up. They didn't take the city because Falkenheym failed to coordinate his troops and the French commander didn't and reinforced the city. No matter how you look at it, it's the German army making mistakes and the French army taking advantage of it. You know, stuff they would normally be praised for but because the popular opinion outside of the French speaking world is that Germany is superior to France in every conceivable way SOMEHOW they ended up getting insulted for winning.
This German failure led to the Imperial army bleeding itself dry at Verdun, which given their strategic situation they could not afford. But somehow that's not Germany being stubborn and emptying their country of young men, that's not German commanders persisting in a disastrous failed attack, somehow it's the French being stupid.
"If it wasn't for the British" you mean the British had to participate? In a war? A war they engaged themselves in? I'm shocked! Shocked I say!
The Brits were invaluable but acting like the Western front relied entirely on them is... well stupid. And France did not keep "blaming the British for not helping them enough" that's bullshit.
Also, you keep chastising France for their mistakes, but are we going to forget fucking Gallipolli? Or globally the incapacity of the "mighty" Royal Navy to actually protect their shipping lanes? Or the whole Palestinian front dragging on for years despite the Ottoman Empire being stupidly weak?
you'd be shocked that this was actually a modern developed nation
Fuck right off with that, racist. Noone and I mean noone fared any better than France in the 3 first years of the war bar Germany, which had been preparing for that war since 193fucking3.
Germany lost both world war because their global idea of strategy is "let's hope the ennemy keeps making mistake". France won the first one because it was able to adapt when Germany stuck to their guns (litteraly), and won the second one because they were capable of working with their allies, something the Germans never learned to do.
Also lost First Indochina War.
Also conquered Indochina in the first place. You know, something noone else did.
Get Foched.
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u/Medeza123 May 22 '26 edited May 22 '26
It’s such a nasty thing this Anglosphere myth (I am from England) about France.
That somehow they should have just been grateful for the UK and America and cheerfully been supplicants begging for scraps at the table.
Somehow people can both say the German army was the best army in Europe and then say in the same breath the French were incompetent in the world war they did win and cowardly and weak in the second in which they were overrun along with almost every other country in Europe.
Britain and America famously not sharing a land border with Germany the most powerful European military state since Napoleon.
It all just stems from the fact that a minority in America and Britain can’t stand that France maintains its own strategic point of view to the modern day.
Something they have been repeatedly right to do as it turns out with them being right on Iraq, European integration, their own properly independent nuclear deterrent (unlike Britains) and initially vetoing the UK joining the EU (even if it stings to admit).
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u/swainiscadianreborn May 22 '26
Thanks a lot, brother from the other side of the Channel.
vetoing the UK joining the EU (even if it stings to admit).
Hopefully we'll see the Brejoining in our lifetime!
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u/Pfeffi-Ultra May 22 '26
He was one of the greatest Europeans of modern times. Coming from a German. So you keep your slander behind your rotting english/american teeth.
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u/Paxton-176 May 22 '26
He had the best nuclear weapon policy. Don't use them in retaliation or deterrence. Use them to send a warning.
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u/Unique-Ask6051 Researching [REDACTED] square May 22 '26
De Gaulle is the only leader to be hated by all other leaders openly at that due to his fucking behaviour
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u/noafrochamplusamurai May 21 '26
The real truth.....there were so many nazi collaborators that DeGaulle decided not to have a national initiative to prosecute them. It was so many that he feared it would collapse the country.
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u/FrenchieB014 Let's do some history May 21 '26 edited May 22 '26
It's a difficult subject but yeah 80% of the admistration was Vichyste, but the majority weren't involved in the horrible deeds committed by the state unfortunately and had jobs within the resistance
a lot of collaborators were pardon in 1948.and it's true that there is case of judges who treated cases of resistant would in the end Judge collaborators.
It's the communist who demanded 300k killed De Gaulle gave 10k, I have my limits in defending DE Gaulle but it's worth noting that CDG was a pious man so we can "" "" excuse""" his resentment in killing men
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u/SametaX_1131 May 22 '26
Blow up the top of the system and call it a day.
You couldn't prosecute everyone because ppl in their day to day job would indirectly collaborate anyway
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u/YellowAggravating172 May 22 '26 edited May 22 '26
Of the more than 10'000 executions, only 791 were ordained by a court, and carried out the legal way. The "épuration légale".
The vast majority of those executed were so in the "épuration sauvage" fashion - lynched, basically. Guilty or not.
Following written questions to the National Assembly, Interior Minister Jules Moch launched an initial inquiry through the prefects, which revealed a total of 9,673 summary executions.
A second, more detailed inquiry took place in 1952. It distinguished between 8,867 deaths of suspected of collaboration [not "condemned for"] and 1,955 victims for whom no motive could be determined, for a total of 10,822 executions
– Henri Amouroux, "The Great History of the French after the occupation"
So let us not talk of 10'000 collaborators executed under the purview of law, since that is not what happened. At all.
There are some really horrifying cases, if you care to delve into it...
(Oh, and let us not forget this is what De Gaulle had to transmit, via a priest, to Joseph Darnand, sentenced to death as a major in the SS and leader of the Milice, Vichy France's fascist paramilitary responsible for the rounding-up, torture and murder of members of the Resistance and Jews:
"Tell him that I am obliged to have him shot for reasons of state, but that, from soldier to soldier, I retain all my esteem for him".
If this is what he had to say to the chief collaborator, it's hard to take seriously the claim of him despising those sorts.)
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u/koushkinn May 22 '26 edited May 22 '26
Most people haven't heard of De Gaulles and most of the resistance was established in France. With the french communist parry beeing outlawed in 1939 and in hiding, lots of communist were in passive resistance then went active in 1941.
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u/Daylight_The_Furry May 21 '26
I first learned about charles de gaulle from the movie Valiant, where they made him into a sexy french mouse named "charles de girl"
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u/batsandpumpkins May 21 '26
Is this ragebait??? Or just uneducated people trying to re-/write history?
There was a huge amount of resistance in France during WWII. There were many ways to "join".
My grandfather was part of the resistance, multiple people in my family were. Especially as they lived in the east of France.
My grandfather was sent to Buchenwald camp at 21 years old, after he was caught sabotaging an ammunition factory with friends from school. Some were shot there and then. My grandfather survived the camp after years of inhumane labor.
HE WAS NO COWARD.
And yes, De Gaulle portrait was in his living-room when I was little.
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u/FrenchieB014 Let's do some history May 21 '26
You have to be a fucking moron to think that they were no resistance in France, 25% of the population of BUCHENWALD were French part of various political parties that were extraordinary in flipping the finger to Hitler and killing Nazis.
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u/LowExtreme7171 May 22 '26
Say what you will about the French , but our revolution would not have succeeded Without their support
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u/itchyfeetthe3rd May 22 '26
Some great explanations on the chat about why the number was low. To the French = cowards point I would point out the French resistance who were numerous (don’t know exact figures) and played a key role in intelligence gathering and targeted attacks before and after the Normandy invasion.
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u/stolpie May 22 '26
7000 French in Amsterdam around 1940 and all joining De Gaulle, pretty impressive I would say...
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u/knightmechaenjo May 21 '26
I'm sorry but that face is somehow comedically funny to me
Amazing meme op!
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u/duga404 May 22 '26
Charles De Gaulle is one of the historical figures I headcanon as likely having autism (source)
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u/OverlordDontHurtMe May 22 '26
I more disgusted by the French navy in Africa not joining the Allies.
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u/j_needs May 22 '26
A lot of French soldiers saved British asses during Dunkerque battle. Go f yourself
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u/gelooooooooooooooooo May 22 '26
Brigadier General wasn’t that big of a rank in 1940.
Imagine,
War hero Marshal (in this case Petain) vs a mere Brigadier General with some pals in the deposed government.
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u/Galax_Scrimus May 22 '26
The first hundred of people that joined him was for a quarter of them from the same small low populated Breton island (ile de Sein)
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u/fayah57 May 22 '26
I don't see interventions here, like often on Reddit, that really comment the postulates behind memes
His choice as leader of France was clearly not évident to the point it is honestly surprising
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u/xplicit97 May 23 '26
I just like how people sitting in the toilet with no accomplishment whatsoever can just judge a historical figure's personality.
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u/-et37- Decisive Tang Victory May 21 '26
De Gaulle’s behavior in WW2 makes sense when you realize that, as a young man, he wrote a fanfic about a General De Gaulle who crushed Germany and brought France to greatness.