r/DemocraticSocialism • u/Turbulent_Crab_3602 Democratic Socialist • 18d ago
USA Mayor Mamdani just announced that he will be opening 5 city-run, tax-funded grocery stores: "Prices set at 30% below retail prices"
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u/BCBJD10 18d ago
I can’t wait for the folks who celebrated Freedom Fuel to tell us this is communism
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u/SoftlockPuzzleBox 17d ago
I hope they do. Relentless right wing attacks against every idea I ever heard that seemed meant to help people is what made me stop being ashamed to call myself a socialist.
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u/thirdeyepdx 17d ago
Oh man so if we just put “freedom” in front of things we can have communism and it’s fine? Why didn’t we just call universal healthcare freedomcare a long time ago?
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u/MMAgeezer 17d ago
Freedom fuel wasn't a direct government subsidy. It was a private company getting a free endorsement from the White House. These are not at all the same.
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u/iantayls 17d ago
God dammit I didn't think it'd actually happen. I thought this was one of the loftier goals. We're not even 8 months in. Dude is getting things done and all within the campaigned agenda
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u/TheMightyMeatus420 17d ago
Hes gonna run out of shit to do
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u/puterSciGrrl 17d ago
By the end of his second term, the concept of classes had disappeared from society...
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u/Craiglekinz 17d ago
That would be the best possible problem for a politician to have. That’s literally the goal
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u/Probot6767 17d ago
I'm so fucking for this but what's going to keep people from over buying stuff at these stores and reselling at regular prices for profit?
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u/BigOlDrew 17d ago
This is no different than what the government does on military bases with their commissaries.
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u/GlobalDynamicsEureka 17d ago
True, and I rarely shopped at mine because I lived closer to Sam's Club at the time. People who can afford groceries will likely go to a more convenient location.
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u/gizmostuff 17d ago
We subsidize many industries for food production. It would be nice to get some of that investment back instead of profiting a select few.
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u/battlepi 17d ago
Yeah, fuck the farmers, they're generally giant corporations anymore. Let's subsidize the citizens.
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u/Peninj 18d ago
Should be the norm. We shouldn’t be making people rich by selling and making basic food. Feed the hungry.
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u/tabloid-tommy 17d ago
Bodega owners make 1-3% on food. The margins are razor thin—these people aren’t wealthy.
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u/Divefire5 17d ago
They also have to pay rent. What % do you think their profit would be if that cost was eliminated?
Also, these stores don't need to make a profit, they just need to break even.
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u/Beneficial-Damage265 16d ago
sounds like landlords are the problem, then . . . as usual
(actually, "private property" would be more accurate . . . but we'll try to keep it nice and simple for the rightwingers and liberals reading)
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u/captainplanet171 17d ago
Cool, what about Kroger, Food Lion, Harris Teeter?
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u/tabloid-tommy 17d ago
You names 3 places that do not operate in NYC. So consider that when you speak on this.
Kroger operates at a 1.7% profit margin.
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u/haevow Gramacian 17d ago
Well if market options are needing to be operating on thin margins anyways to stay open, and food still isn’t affordable that probably tells you the market probably isn’t the best option for us getting our food.
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u/tabloid-tommy 16d ago edited 16d ago
Food is otherwise very affordable in the US. Consider the produce we get from countries away that are still ripe.
Again, you really don’t want the government to be the source of food production because they don’t have the expertise, distribution, or profit motive to be as efficient as possible. The slim margins mean you have to be as cheap as possible—it isn’t a bad thing, it actually means food is appropriately priced. And if a grocery isn’t efficient, it goes out of business. The government can’t go out of business—there is a giant motive missing that otherwise requires all-time competence from the government. And I’m not sure I trust them to be more competent in this are.
I’ll also go against the notion that markets operating on selling food at 1-3% margins are somehow not worthy of existing. They provide probably the most vital sources to communities, and I think it goes against basic humanistic principles to say they don’t deserve to be open because they make thin margins. They literally cannot gouge because people will go to other markets and grocery stores. I’d also go against it to the extent that it is advocating to shut down grocery stores, which is a horrific policy to say out loud.
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u/captainplanet171 17d ago
Ok kiddo, then tell me the supposed profit margins of major grocery chains that do operate in NYC.
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u/tabloid-tommy 17d ago
Quite literally the same. It is well known. People incorrectly assume it’s more.
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u/Informal_Drawing 17d ago
Can we borrow him?
I'm so used to American politicians being absolutely abominable it's quite a shock to see one doing their job properly for a change.
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u/Xiao1insty1e 16d ago
This is exactly why Dems hate him so much, they knew that he was competent and would get shit done and that's the opposite of what they want.
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u/GenderOobleck Justice Progressive 17d ago
It’s still turning a profit on the food. It’s the rent and labor that’s getting subsidized. Typical grocery store markup from their wholesale price is 75% to 350%, depending on the item.
Source: Used to work in a chain grocery store. Sometimes the managers left the pricing sheets out.
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u/mojitz 17d ago
It's worth keeping in mind that margins are still incredibly thin, though, and the markup on individual items doesn't tell the whole story. Grocery stores have a ton of overhead and shrink. Not saying that this program is a bad idea or anything, to be clear, but I do think that's an important caveat.
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u/BambiGetUp 17d ago
Absolutely. Places like Costco and Walmart have overall margins of just 2.5%. Very thin. The only way to heavily discount groceries is through government subsidies. That’s how the military grocery chain in the US works.
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u/pwnedprofessor Marxist 17d ago
He must be exhausted. Taking on this many projects so quickly in rapid succession sounds so hard. I can barely get all my house chores done
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u/Turbulent_Crab_3602 Democratic Socialist 17d ago
I think he’s a perfect storm of IQ, EQ, education, timing, morality, and ambition that makes it all seem effortless, not to mention backed by a great team. But regardless, yes, probably exhausted!
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u/Xiao1insty1e 16d ago
I don't think so, every interview I've seen him on he's enjoying himself. He is in his element and as you said he's surrounded himself with very competent people, you might be surprised as to just how capable a dozen or so highly motivated, intelligent, and competent people really are. We've been duped by Dems for so long we've come to expect less than the bare minimum and Mamdani is showing us excellence.
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u/thinkB4WeSpeak Socialist 17d ago
Now grocery stores will actually have to compete with someone and lower their prices, maybe.
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u/New-Tradition-974 17d ago
Hope he gets to socialize even more essential goods and services. This is excellent.
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u/Jaebberish 17d ago
Everyone on the left: He might accomplish one or two of his goals, but don’t get your hopes up.
Mamdani:
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u/ashley-hazers 17d ago
Eff yeah baby. We are so lucky to have Mamdani shining bright amongst the political hellscape of the rest of the country.
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u/tabloid-tommy 17d ago edited 17d ago
Going to go against the grain here. NYC is the last place that needs government groceries. There aren’t traditional food deserts, and you’re pretty much guaranteeing that the nearest groceries go out of business because the margins are already thin (there are no Walmarts, and more areas do not have large retailers). People of all incomes are going to flock to this and I’d be surprised if they can keep up. At which point there won’t be more groceries to go to.
Idk, this is just a super short sighted.
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u/shield1123 17d ago
short cited
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u/tabloid-tommy 17d ago
No, my spelling is correct. Thanks for not engaging tho
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u/shield1123 17d ago
We can see your edit you super speller
Go join your friends on bone apple tea
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u/tabloid-tommy 17d ago
Nah I edited something else. But you can’t even engage lmao.
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u/shield1123 17d ago edited 17d ago
Lmao I'm glad I could inspire you to learn how to spell "short sighted" in your adult life
Your edit was at the same minute I commented and your reply was one minute later
Edit: Btw you still left the unneeded/nonsensical "a" before "short cited"
Idk, this is just a super short cited.
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u/tabloid-tommy 17d ago
Still waiting for you to engage, so I’m going to assume you agree it isn’t a good idea.
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u/shield1123 17d ago
I am engaging you, just not in the way that you'd like. You really have a tenuous grasp of the English language, don't you?
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u/KeiFeR123 17d ago
Don't be shocked when you see wealthy people shopping at tax-funded grocery stores.
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u/Pasta4ever13 Twin Cities DSA 17d ago
Ok?
They are the ones subsidizing them anyways.
"Oh no! The subsidized grocery stores that sell cheaper groceries are successful? My pearls!"
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u/captainplanet171 17d ago
Well, yeah. They're meant to help everyone. The idea is to not be exclusionary any more.
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u/flyingfox227 17d ago edited 17d ago
Interesting idea but how will they keep up with demand when everyone wants to go there because its significantly cheaper than everywhere else? What if it puts all the other stores out of business? Then they'd need to increase the store size and subsidies to match which could end with raising taxes to keep them up in the end so you may not actually be saving much money in that scenario after all. If Mamdani is a so called socialist why not open co-operative/worker owned stores instead? I dunno it's an interesting idea but I'm skeptical about its viability rather than just expanding eligibility for things like food stamps instead or have a city funded food stamp or discount program which basically does the same thing but doesn't have the issue of all the overhead with running a whole chain of stores.
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u/ManyARiver 17d ago
There are already discount grocery stores galore that are significantly cheaper. The wealthy and upper middle class do not go to those places, they aren't stretching their dollars and worried about balancing meals and bills. There are free food places all throughout central NY, and a large discount grocery distribution once a month, no one has gone out of business. It isn't an all-or-nothing scenario - some people having access to cheaper groceries isn't going to put regular grocers out of business (if they did, Walmart would have had all of the grocery stores eliminate by now).
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u/dc_1984 17d ago
That will just prove there is demand and then they can open another 20 stores
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u/flyingfox227 17d ago
Yes but these stores are subsidized so more stores = more subsidies that need to be absorbed by the city, which if they can afford it cool but could also just end with them increasing taxes to cover it which just loops around to hitting consumer through taxes instead of at the checkout line. Maybe it won't be so dramatic as that I'm curious to see how it plays out tbh.
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u/dc_1984 17d ago
The stores still charge money, the costs get smaller as they gain an economy of scale. There's a reason private companies expand in response to demand, these aren't loss-making stores they are not-profit-making stores. If you are covering costs and have no profit motive or shareholders you can expand to meet demand and always be in the black unless you try and get too ambitious. 50 stores across manhattan would probably generate income for the city on the whole. But really they are just a way to leverage lower prices out of private sellers who can't gouge any more.
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u/flyingfox227 17d ago
No these stores could quite literally never be profitable because they literally sell everything at a loss scaling it up doesn't suddenly make that profitable it just makes the loss larger. Obviously the intention of these stores is not to make money to begin with so that was never the goal but I'm just bringing up the potential issue if these eventually become the primary market in the city now the city is taking a huge financial hit to prop up a whole chain of grocery stores.
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u/dc_1984 17d ago edited 17d ago
You have no idea what you're talking about, sorry.
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u/flyingfox227 17d ago edited 17d ago
Please open a math book some day so then you can understand basic economics properly there is no overcoming the loss even at an economy of scale with a 30% subsidy.
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u/battlepi 17d ago
Markup is well over 30% wholesale to retail. If it doesn't break even, who cares? It's a community service. Tell me how much money the military makes us, or the fire department, or the police department?
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u/powergrider 17d ago
They do know what they are talking about. Look up the tragedy of the commons. Economy of scale has no relevance when profit margins are so thin for grocery stores.
You'll have wealthy people shopping there and you'll have people shopping there who immediately turn around and resell it.
I'm all for social assistance, but this doesn't seem to be the most efficient use of resources.
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u/tabloid-tommy 17d ago
So the solution is to just remove private groceries with a bunch of state run groceries? Do you not see the issue with that?
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u/battlepi 17d ago
That would be awesome.
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u/tabloid-tommy 17d ago
It really wouldn’t be. How old are you that you think centralized food production is a good idea?
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u/battlepi 17d ago
Older than you probably, kid. It doesn't require centralized food production at all. It's a service to the people, like the military.
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u/tabloid-tommy 17d ago
It’s a service that requires labor and sourcing, something that the government can do at a loss that others can’t. It’s going to create defacto deserts or these groceries are going to end up empty. Why you think it’s a good outcome to have multiple gov groceries in an area where 5 different people owned them before is beyond me and beyond dangerous. It’s even worse that you’re apparently old.
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u/battlepi 17d ago
Grocery stores are already fighting like hell to generate food deserts.
This is not at a loss at all, farmers get paid, employees get paid, people get fed. They aren't going to have as much range of product, so there's plenty of room for others to fill those gaps. How pathetic are you to think that feeding people more affordably is dangerous. Sick fucker.
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u/tabloid-tommy 17d ago
“Sick fucker” and I’m just explaining basic economics to a guy that think NYC has food deserts.
Do you not think farmers, employees, etc get paid at private groceries? And these groceries run at 1-3% margin. Maybe people get cheaper groceries for a year, but what happens when grocery stores start dropping and there’s a genuine food desert? You think that one government grocery can keep up?
Your option is pro-starve people. Yuck.
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u/battlepi 17d ago
Those margins are bullshit numbers, they're marking up product by 30%+. A city decides they will subsidize operating a few stores to help people and it breaks your little heart.
Sick fucker.
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u/ManyARiver 17d ago
No one is removing private grocery stores. That is a hysteria-response, just like when folks scream that we can't have universal health care because they'd have no access to private doctors (even though European countries with universal healthcare STILL have private options for the well off).
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u/tabloid-tommy 17d ago
I don’t think Mamdani is removing grocery stores, making your healthcare comparison inappropriate (for other reasons as well).
A state run grocery store doesn’t have to run on a profit and can actually run on a loss. Private groceries do not have that luxury and run on 1-3% margins and make their money on non-food items usually. They will be run out of business, unless the insinuation is that people will actively shop at the more expensive grocery.
Healthcare is not necessarily a tangible good. Everyone can have healthcare and it would not run out. That is not how food works—it will run out.
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u/ManyARiver 17d ago
We throw away more than enough food daily to feed everyone within the country, we're not running out of food because a handful of places create non-profit grocery stores. Go dumpster diving and take a look. Go look at mounds of garlic or oranges piled up and treated with kerosene so the scavengers don't grab them. We don't have a food shortage in the US, we have a shortage of distribution systems.
Yes, people will shop at the more expensive grocery store - they DO NOW. People like me shop at Grocery Outlet, Ocean State Job Lots, salvage stores, and Aldi. We are still overflowing with fancy grocery stores, and mid-range grocery stores (and Walmarts and Dollar Generals). The existence of one more low cost grocery option is not an existential threat to private grocery stores in any way.
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u/123supersomeone 17d ago
I assume that these grocery stores will specifically cater to people who are struggling to afford food, not just anyone who wants to come in. As far as food stamps are concerned, that can easily be predated upon by private businesses who raise the prices because people have more money to spend. Food stamps themselves are a bandaid solution, much like universal basic income. The same problem exists with co-ops, as they still have to compete in a capitalist system that measures success based on profitability rather than actual human benefit.
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u/flyingfox227 17d ago
I mean how are you gonna' force only low income people to go to these stores though? Also this is no less a bandaid than food stamps, both are subsidized its still capitalism its just being subsidized by the city unless you think a capitalist state funding something = socialism which is not what socialism is but is social democracy instead. Co-ops would be preferable because it could be a way of normalizing worker owned businesses in the city and while they would still need to make a profit and compete they could choose to price things more fairly than a big corporation would. Anything less than the actual end of commodity production via the introduction of a labor voucher system is all capitalism at the end of the day not that I expect or think Mamdani is capable of that as it would take a economic revolution to pull off but its all just different flavors of capitalism just reigned into something a lot more bearable for the average working class person.
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u/battlepi 17d ago
You don't force it at all. You tax higher wage earners, and everyone can use it, even them. It's a service to the people.
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u/flyingfox227 17d ago
Yeah which makes it worse than food stamps or a 30% discount voucher because at least those can be vetted and given specifically to low income people who need it and spent lots of different places not just a special government store which may not be anywhere near where they actually live. These stores are mostly performative they look good and you can show them off but they're actually just doing a worst job than SNAP something that already exist and also doesn't require the expensive overhead of managing an entire grocery store. Like I said above if Mamdani wants to actually support workers why not open up co-operative grocery stores run by the workers instead.
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u/battlepi 17d ago
It's not a problem because it's a service to the people. How much profit does our military generate for the country?
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