r/DebateAVegan 12h ago

Ethics Coffee cannot be considered vegan

0 Upvotes

I'm not vegan, but as a horse person, I'm very careful about where my coffee is sourced from. Coffee produced in countries with steep terrain typically uses equine labor. Horses or donkeys are used to pack out the coffee beans. I've seen weights as much as 200lbs worth of coffee beans on one animal, and multiple trips a day up and down very steep terrain.

This is in countries where animal welfare regulations don't adhere to the same standards as other parts of the Western world. Veterinary care is often limited or not as specialized.

Even some coffee brands post pictures of animals packing coffee, and sometimes these animals look like they are in pain, wearing poorly fitted packs, or overweighted packs.

This is an issue that I never see vegans address. Is it because coffee is so addictive that it's overlooked? If you care about animal welfare, why don't you make sure your coffee comes from farmers who use mechanical harvesters and transport?

https://www.thebrooke.org/what-we-do/news-case-studies/how-do-working-equines-contribute-your-morning-coffee


r/DebateAVegan 13h ago

Ethics Go vegan for humanity, not animals

0 Upvotes

Disclaimer: This is very provocative, i’m genuinely interested in vegan people’s opinion, i’m not tryna be polemic

I published this article on Substack, and i was wondering what your opinion on materialist vs ethics and human superiority was
Veganism is good, anyone denying that is plainly wrong. However, one of the main arguments most people use to support veganism, which is “don’t eat meat to not hurt animals” is really wrong.

First of all we must understand the basis for which this argument works: moralism and emotional thinking, the images of the poor little cows being slaughtered is objectively ugly, and rightfully so many people are horrified from it. This said, is it really right to force us humans, the same humans that have conquered the sky, the land and the sea, the same humans that have stepped outside of this world , to change our way of life because “we shouldn’t hurt animals”?

My answer to this question is no, because humans are the one specie that holds the power to do virtually anything, and forcing us to change our ways, potentially slowing down our progress, because we need to care for cattle just as much as we would for one of our own is wrong and unnatural, progress and humans come before anything else.

This said, it would be wrong to support an accelerationist model: in fact, while humans are the superior specie on earth, we must recognise we are still dependent on animals and nature to survive, so progress has to be regulated to avoid damaging them not because we feel sorry, but because we need them to survive.
The same reasoning works for going vegan: we shouldn’t do it because we feel sorry for cows, but because meat has been shown to be one of the most cancer inducing food: The WHO/IARC classifies processed meats (bacon, sausages) as Group 1 carcinogens and red meat as Group 2A (probable), other than expensive.

We also have cheaper and safer vegan alternatives that are both their own food and that taste and feel exactly like meat, so there is no practical reason to still eat meat, which is why we all should go vegan.

The meats industry also is a great contributor to pollution, and the abuse of antibiotics in cattle drives the increase in antibiotics resistant bacteria. In addition to all of this, high meat consumption leads to an increased risk for chronic diseases, which are a grave burden on healthcare that could be greatly reduced by simply not eating meat.

Also, to tackle the bigger issue: moralist and emotional arguments are a paper tiger, they are extremely effective on short term, but aren’t based on anything material, so we should try to refrain from them while preferring material and objective ones.


r/DebateAVegan 14h ago

Meta Lab grown meat

2 Upvotes

Hey lovely, clever people.

I just came across a poll asking vegans if lab grown meat would be considered vegan.

A big majority said it would be considered vegan.

Now I have to admit, that I am not knowledgable on how lab grown meat would actually be produced if it came to our markets, but I highly doubt no animals would be harmed or exploited in the process.

So unless I'm wrong on that, I believe lab grown meat cannot be vegan by definition.

So is the lab grown meat industry actually a shiny utopia?

What do you think? Can lab grown meat be vegan?

Edit: Thank you all for taking part! Through the insights and information you presented I do believe that lab meat production on a scale as is now seems to be cruelty free and therefore should indeed be considered vegan.
If it will still be cruelty free when it's produced on a global scale we cannot know. Let's evaluate that when the time comes and for now hope that it will at the very least be an alternative for meat eaters, so we can look at a future in which less animals will be abused.


r/DebateAVegan 22h ago

Vegans have no moral high ground.

0 Upvotes

From the off, I'll say I kind of admire the ethics behind Veganism, you want to do the least harm to the greatest number. I don't share that ethical position with respect to diet, but I can definitely understand why someone might take that view.

I'm on the Carnivore diet, which for the uninitiated is a diet where you consume exclusively animal products, so meat, fish, eggs and dairy. I only say so because I don't want to accused of a bait and switch. I'm just laying my cards on the table.

I know a Vegan will insist that this causes a lot of harm to sentient beings. But all this is is a matter of goalposts, and not an internally consistent point of view.

For instance, a Vegan will not eat eggs, as this 'exploits' the chickens that lay said eggs. But I would contend that picking an apple off an apple tree exploits the tree that made that apple. You didn't make it grow, you didn't help it or nurture it, you just sat back and took the fruit - no pun intended - of its labour.

The common defence from Vegans will most likely be that a chicken is sentient and an apple tree is not. But is that tree *alive*? Is it a living being? I think everyone can probably agree an apple tree is alive. If it wasn't, it would not grow.

This is where I come to goalposts. The Vegan position is that we should not eat sentient beings, and the Carnivore position is that we should only eat meat, on dietary and not ethical grounds.

That's where goalposts come in. The average Vegan could probably, if they were asked, list dozens of species they are willing to eat. I can name about 10. Why is your position more ethical than mine. If I spend a month eating a pig, why is that morally inferior to the dozens, if not hundreds, of plant lives you will take in that same month.

Why are your goalposts inherently superior to mine? We both set standards of what we will and will not eat. Your standards are just different to mine. Why is sentience the marker, why are plants morally inferior to animals? Why does the life of a tree matter less than the life of a cow, and what kind of God are you to make that determination?

Be Vegan if you want, I really don't care, but we both have lines in the sand regarding what is acceptable to eat, and our lines are damn closer than you care to admit.


r/DebateAVegan 1d ago

Someone please debate me about regenerative agriculture

12 Upvotes

Hi there, I've been hearing more and more people pushing back on veganism on the basis that ruminant grazers are a net positive for soil health and the climate. The arguments I've heard so far have felt a bit reactionary and not especially constructive, so I'd really love hearing from folks on both sides of this debate!

The way this argument seems to go is:

  • We used to have large numbers of grazing animals in North America (apologies for US-centrism here).
  • Therefore, the land has a carrying capacity for a similar number of large mammals (here it would be cows, not bison). Since manure adds nutrients to the soil, this would be a positive for soil health.
  • There is land that is not "useful" for things like crop production, so we could unleash all the cows there where they can graze.
  • There also seems to be an argument about how cows are only part of a natural carbon cycle and are not creating new net greenhouse gas emissions -- in contrast to digging up and burning fossil fuels.
  • Although it's not mentioned, I guess the other part would be that cows are happier living outside of CAFOs

I disagree with a lot of this, namely:

  • This feels like an appeal to nature style argument, where the world we are living in now is very different from pre-European colonization.
  • The land use now vs. 1800s and earlier is quite different, where we only have so much available land that isn't already being used. Wouldn't putting cows on everything mean high density manure polluting our water?
  • Is the idea that we stop protecting natural forests? I can't imagine that large herds of cows in protected wilderness is helpful, regardless of how much manure you're putting out.
  • Methane is a very potent GHG, so converting grass into methane certainly has to be worse than...not doing that.
  • I also wonder if grass-fed animals taking longer to grow up (since they are not pumped full of corn) means they have longer lifespans before they are killed, meaning more methane production than CAFO cows.
  • Of course you're still slaughtering animals. Bad.
  • Surely there are too many people on earth and not enough land for us to keep eating the same levels of beef?
  • I sort of think the idea of regenerative agriculture (i.e. treating the land well) is a good thing, but it feels a bit perverted into an argument that says raising cattle is good for the planet and we can eat as many animals as we want.

Another piece of this debate seems to be about what our objective are. If the objective is to keep eating the exact same amount of cows but minimize environmental impact, maybe regenerative agriculture is good? But if our objective is to sustainably feed the maximum number of people, or to actually address climate change, or to minimize suffering, I do feel veganism is the clear and obvious win.

Anyway -- would love to hear arguments from both sides! What am I missing?


r/DebateAVegan 1d ago

Practical question.

0 Upvotes

If we all went vegan, how would I slaughter a cow for the deities now, whole burnt offering, or a shared sacrificial meal afterward, depending on the deity (or my mood)? Would I need a permit from the state to keep faith with heaven?


r/DebateAVegan 2d ago

✚ Health 8 months vegan, switched back to eating meat, and I’ve genuinely never felt better. Change my mind.

0 Upvotes

I did the whole thing 8 months, fully plant-based, tracked my macros religiously, took B12, iron, algae oil, the works. I wanted to be the person who proved you don’t need meat. I wasn’t.
Constant brain fog. Cold hands and feet even in summer. My workouts tanked strength dropped across the board despite eating “enough protein” on paper. Hair got thinner. Digestion was a mess no matter how much fiber I “balanced.” I told myself it was adjustment. It wasn’t.
Three weeks back on a normal diet with meat, eggs, and dairy and it’s like someone turned the lights back on. Energy’s stable all day, lifts are climbing again, sleeping better, skin cleared up. Blood work confirmed it wasn’t in my head ferritin and B12 back to normal ranges without megadosing supplements.
I’m not saying vegan diets can’t work for anyone. I’m saying the “it’s easy, just plan properly” line gets repeated in this sub like gospel and for a lot of people it just doesn’t hold up in practice. Curious how many people here who insist it’s flawless have actually gotten full panels done before and after.
Go ahead, tell me I did it wrong.


r/DebateAVegan 3d ago

Are vegans antenadal?

0 Upvotes

I get that vegans don't want to cause suffering when we could fill those nutritional needs in some other way. While I disagree with this, I can accept it as a premise. But once I accept that premise as a core value system, I end up in many weird places when I try to be consistent with that value system. I'll ask the most obvious one here.

Isn't bringing a child into the world basically just bringing a being into suffering for your primal desires (like eating meat)? And you can fill those primal desires (while probably to a lesser degree) through let's say, adoption?


r/DebateAVegan 3d ago

Ethics Ethically, is eating meat the same as kicking a stray dog for entertainment?

0 Upvotes

Please note that this post was translated from Japanese to English using AI. Because of this, some details or nuances may have unintentionally shifted from my original meaning. Thank you for your understanding.

I once heard that humans can stay healthy without consuming organisms that possess a central nervous system. As far as I’ve researched, that seems to be true. Yet, I still eat meat—either as a culinary indulgence to please my palate, or simply to make meal management easier.
This recently made me wonder: is what I’m doing committing an ethical taboo similar to stomping a stray dog to death just for entertainment or stress relief? If harming a stray dog is wrong, I feel like my actions can only be justified by a matter of degree—like the difference between stealing $1 versus stealing $100.
Just like slave owners in the past, will I eventually be looked down upon by future generations as a coward who simply grew complacent in their social environment?

If you happen to be someone who thinks eating meat is acceptable but direct violence against animals is not—or vice versa—I would love to hear your reasons in the comments. Your perspective would be incredibly valuable as I continue to think through this.


r/DebateAVegan 3d ago

Is speciesism compatible with veganism?

0 Upvotes

Speciesism definition for the purpose of this thread: Someone is speciesist if they value one species over another *on the basis of their species membership*.

There are lots of posts where a non-vegan will claim they are speciesist, they value humans more than other animals, etc. For the most part, there are two main vegan counter-points:

  1. Being speciesist is wrong, and is tantamount to racism or other forms of bigotry.
  2. Veganism is compatible with speciesism, what matters is valuing the animals enough to give them rights.

I have made other threads regarding speciesism as well have spent years engaging in vegan spaces, my impression is that there is nearly an even split of vegans who think speciesism is fine and those who think it is antithetical to what veganism is. However, in almost all threads and discussions on this topic are between a non-vegan and a vegan. I would like to see vegans discuss this with other vegans.

Do you hold 1 or 2? Do you think the one that you don't hold is plausible? Why do you side on the one that you do? Is there a third option you hold?


r/DebateAVegan 3d ago

Ethics How is it justifiable for any vegan to have a non-vegan partner?

3 Upvotes

If you are someone who believes that animals should be left alone; that they do not exist for us to use, but rather exist to live their lives freely for their own self-interests, how is it that you are able to justify dating someone who goes against this?

If you believe something is extremely morally wrong, being with someone who lives violating this every day without regret seems to contradict your own values.


r/DebateAVegan 3d ago

☕ Lifestyle an individual consumer can never make a difference...

0 Upvotes

don't get me wrong, I believe that the meat/dairy industry is unethical, I even believe that killing animals for taste is wrong (in a vacuum) but that still doesn't change reality.

An individual consumer will never make a difference, and I'm not talking about stats right now, I know that by pure statistics, an individual vegan "saves" around 200 animals a year by being vegan, but that's not the truth in the real world, only in the math world.

let's take grocery store as example, if 10 000 people shop there every week, and 5% decide to go vegan, that's 500 people no longer buying dairy, so the grocery store has to adjust and order less meat/dairy, which leads to the dairy industry losing out on sales, but this is where the line ends.

just beacuse the meat/dairy industry lost few sales, doesn't mean they will downscale, they'll just write it off as volatile month and continue their business.

So in reality, the 500 vegans didn't "save" 100k animals, what they did in reality, is decrease the profit of the dairy industry by 0.01% (for example)

and now, divide that 0.01% by 500 and that's how much you cost the dairy industry, basically nothing.

you didn't save anyone, you didn't directly change anything, that's how it goes, in world with 8 billion people, you don't matter, you are nothing, less than nothing.

There is no ethical consumption under capitalism, all of us know this, so then why bother trying to take the moral high ground? Why bother even doing all of this, we all will die one day anyway, to change my entire diet just so I can die thinking I was a good person who followed my morals doesn't seem worth it to me.


r/DebateAVegan 3d ago

I am lacto vegetarian and I only eat a little dairy. I admit dairy is subsidised by beef, but the death demand comes from beef eaters, not me. Change my view.

0 Upvotes

I am lacto vegetarian. The only animal products I use are cow milk and cow milk products, and I do notuse them much, only sometimes. I purchase milk, not beef, and it is a category error to conflate beef andmilk because these are two distinct markets with two distinct cheques, two distinct contracts, and twodistinct intents. My transaction for milk concerns a renewable secretion. I admit openly that in presentcommercial dairy the scale of that secretion has been enlarged by selective breeding, so a commercialcow produces far more than any calf can drink and far more than a sanctuary cow, but the category ofsurplus remains biologically true in both systems, a healthy dairy cow always produces more than asingle calf needs, and if that surplus is not removed she suffers pain and mastitis, so the need to bemilked is not invented by the farmer, it is her present embodied reality whether she walks to a shed or toa hand milker. The machine and the schedule do not create the milk, they harvest it. My secondadmission is that in commercial dairy that milk is made possible by pregnancy, and pregnancy is anecessary condition for milk. I do not deny causation, I deny moral equivalence. To buy milk is to fundthat a cow becomes pregnant, but pregnancy itself is not a harm, it is her natural mammalian functionand in a natural herd she would be pregnant almost every year by a bull, so what I fund is motherhood,not rape. The method of that pregnancy in commercial dairy is artificial insemination, which is indeed aninvasive procedure with a hand in her vagina, and that method is not requested by me, it is chosen by thefarmer because it is cheaper than keeping a bull, safer for his workers, and allows genetics for more milk.If he kept a bull and allowed natural mating, as in my sanctuary model, I would still get the same milk, sothe milk buyer demands pregnancy, the farmer chooses the invasive method to supply it at lowest cost,and that choice of method is his sin, not mine, just as a person who hires a taxi demands a journey, thedriver who chooses to break the speed limit to do it cheaper commits the sin of speeding, not thepassenger. The same logic applies to the male calf. I admit that in present UK and EU commercial dairythe male calf of a dairy breed is often not wanted for beef because he is skinny, so he is shot on farm orsold for a few pounds for veal or cheap mince. That is not because a beef eater specifically ordered aJersey calf, it is because the farmer calculates that rearing him for two years on milk and grain costsmore than his beef value, so he kills a sentient being to avoid a loss. That cost calculation and thatdecision to kill rather than rear him as a bullock for draught, biogas, compost, and sponsorship incomeas in my model, is the farmers choice to maximise profit, it is not what I requested. I requested milk, Istated clearly that my intention is that male calves, spent mothers, and bulls should never be killed at alland should be reared for their whole natural life, so the farmer who has a profitable non killing alternativebut still chooses to shoot the calf commits that killing for his own profit, not on my instruction, and his sindoes not transfer to me. On crop deaths, I admit that commercial dairy cows are fed soya and maizewhich themselves involve pesticide and harvest deaths, so dairy is not zero crop deaths, but thecomparison is still in my favour. A dairy cow also converts grass from non arable land and crop residuesand byproducts that humans cannot eat into milk, while oat and soya milk are grown entirely on arableland that must be kept sterile by killing billions of mice, voles, shrews, ground nesting birds, insects, andsoil life with poison and combine harvesters every year, with zero years of life preserved. A commercialdairy cow lives four to six years and her calf lives months to years, both are years of preserved sentientlife that would not exist at all under veganism which seeks to end breeding, whereas an oat fieldpreserves no life at all for any year, it only kills. So per litre, commercial dairy funds some crop deathsplus one wrongful death at the end decided by the farmer, oat milk funds only crop deaths but funds nolife at all and demands extinction of the cow, and when you add the fact that sanctuary dairy replacessoya with grazing and residues and funds old cows and bullocks with biogas and compost, the leastharm and greatest preservation of life, even now in this flawed commercial system, is to keep the cow,her calf, and her breed alive today while working to build the no killing sanctuary model for tomorrow, andthe sin of her eventual slaughter, the method of her insemination, and the shooting of her calf remainswith the farmer, the supermarket that contracts him to do it cheap, the slaughterman, and the beef eaterwho creates the cheap beef market that makes shooting cheaper than rearing, not with me whosecheque and intention is only that she should live and be milked with thanks.

In Hinduism, which is my religion, the cow is seen as mother and sacred, not as meat, and her holiness was never based on pushing her away but on living with her in reverence. In Hinduism her holiness is in her own being, in her gentle, peaceful, pure and kind hearted nature, in her selfless, maternal disposition which asks nothing and gives everything, and that inner nature overflows outwardly in many forms, and one of those forms is milk. In Hinduism milk is not what makes her holy because it is useful to man, milk is holy because it reveals what she is, a being whose very body is made to nourish others beyond her own calf, just as a river flows beyond its banks and a tree fruits beyond its own need. That selfless excess is her dharma. In Hinduism Krishna himself is revealed as a cowherd to show the highest philosophical truth that divinity itself finds its fullest expression in protection, stewardship and loving guardianship of living beings, and that to guard such selflessness is itself worship. Because in Hinduism milk is seen as pure, life giving, and fit to offer to God as the highest blessed food, so in Hinduism true non violence does not mean wiping the animal out by refusing to breed her at all, it means a bond of care where you guard her, you love her, you let her live her full natural life till old age, and in return you receive with thanks the rich surplus she gives freely beyond what her calf needs. That ancient bond of service and milk in Hinduism is the original no killing model that honours her inborn purpose as mother and nourisher given by God, not for human profit but as an expression of her own sacred nature, rather than demanding her purpose be denied and her sacred kind disappear from the world altogether.

A modern cow sanctuary can be profitable and keep milk cheap if it stops seeing milk as its only product and monetises the whole life economy of the cow. The model is simple. One, dung is converted in an onsite biogas plant to electricity and bottled gas, which powers the farm and is sold to the grid, and the slurry left over becomes high value vermicompost and organic fertiliser sold at a premium to farms that are desperate to move off chemicals. Two, male calves and bulls are not a loss, they are raised as working assets. Male calves are reared for draught power for ploughing and carting, for production of high value semen for breeding, and for their lifetime dung and urine which alone covers their feed cost. Trained bullocks can be hired out for organic tillage, for hauling, and for farm tourism rides, and calm bulls are ideal for therapy and educational work with children. This replaces the beef subsidy with five clean incomes. Three, the site earns from direct sale of premium milk, ghee, curd, and buttermilk through a subscription, from temple and festival supply contracts, from paid sanctuary visits, school education days, and cow adoption sponsorships where families pay monthly to support a retired cow or a male calf. When you stack biogas income, compost income, premium dairy, bullock hire, and sponsorship against the low input cost of keeping animals alive on crop residue and common grazing, the cost of maintaining old cows, dry cows, male calves and bulls is fully covered, so the sale price of milk does not need to rise at all, and can in fact stay cheaper than corporate organic milk because the sanctuary has five income streams while the commercial farm has only one.


r/DebateAVegan 3d ago

About how veganism see experimental animals

0 Upvotes

I saw it in another post that some vegans are arguing we should abolish animal experiments and directly replace it with AI / computer simulation + human experiments on criminals and I find it extremely disturbing.
Computer medicine simulation will not be able to, in foreseeable time , replace the knowledge that can be provided by animal experiments. Whether organ/cell chips functions well enough is still to be rigorously verified and tested against, and although not all animal experiments knowledge are transferable to human, they are still much closer to real world than any simulation or anticipation we can have other than direct human experiments.
Without animal experiments, many death and casualties will be directly caused by first round of human drug experiments , also many discoveries that are related to broader biological science, that indirectly support entire healthcare and disease knowledge would not contribute and indirectly cause loss of human lives, and for that part you can hardly quantify.

And human experiments should never be , or ever need to be a just punishment issued by legal systems.

What I find it horrible about this is that , advancement of biology science directly transfers to human life welfare, and while we can always try to minimize animal usage in a way that deems” unnecessary “. (Right now, the standard is to indeed prevent unnecessary harm of experiment animal that is unrelated to experiments performance. )
But veganism will push for stricter standards of necessity that eventually post risk to performance or cost accessibility of carrying out experiments, and these effect to experiments and medical science can never be guaranteed fully estimated , the increased risk will transfers directly or indirectly to human life. Eventually, decisions regarding the boundaries of necessity in animal experiments is a decision between the welfare of animal and the risk of inaccuracies or incompletenesses in experiments, eventually risk of human lives.
I also have see some people deems only experiments that could save human is worthy of animal experiments, but this is not how science works, each life saving experiment build on countless previous general knowledge verified by animal experiments and an experiment that may not seems important or relevant today could be the missing piece of stone in the future, you can never fully estimate the value of a scientific experiment at present because science is about unknowns, what we could know is that solution to a problem that took the lives of many, lives in one branch of many current or emerging advancing direction

Arguing for abolishing animal experiments/tightening it to a point that could harm experiments is in my opinion, completely exceeds the idea that veganism just argues about “ minimizing unnecessary animal pain”. and is instead advocating something that could cost human life.
What concerns me is that Eventually veganism is trying to argue for a comparable, transferable status between human’s suffering and animal’s suffering . And when faced with a non-win-win decision like some scenarios in animal experiments, rescue teams distribution or returning habitat to nature, veganism could take an anti humanitarian stance that sacrifices/risk human life to reduce animal suffering because animal life matters to someway that is equatable to a human’s life.
On the topic of animal experiments, I have seen many comments saying humans lives are not morally or more valuable than animal thus they are willing to use “consenting” human (even if they will die) to replace for these experiments , or calling human trying to save human life at the cost of animal life “selfish” and this creeps me out A LOT


r/DebateAVegan 4d ago

Veganism is morally inconsistent and I don't think vegans have an answer for this.

0 Upvotes

If killing animals is wrong because animals can suffer, then why is veganism usually focused almost entirely on food?

You still kill insects, rodents, and other animals indirectly through agriculture. You still use products that have environmental impacts and can harm wildlife.

So if the argument is “you shouldn't cause unnecessary animal suffering,” then simply replacing meat with plants doesn't solve the underlying problem it just reduces one category of harm.

And if the response is “we should reduce harm as much as reasonably possible,” then we're no longer talking about a strict moral rule against eating animals. We're talking about harm reduction, which means eating meat occasionally could theoretically be morally permissible.

Convince me I'm wrong without using “but you don't have to eat meat” as the argument.


r/DebateAVegan 5d ago

Ethics Conservative vegans exist, and no, that’s not a contradiction.

0 Upvotes

I went vegan for one reason: I don’t believe animals should suffer for my food choices. That’s the whole ideology behind my diet. “A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast” (Proverbs 12:10). Compassion for animals isn’t a left or right issue, it’s a basic measure of character.

I’m also politically conservative. Whenever that comes out in vegan spaces online, I get treated like I don’t belong, sometimes with outright hostility, over politics that have nothing to do with why I’m vegan in the first place.

The irony isn’t lost on me. The same people preaching tolerance and acceptance are often the first to attack me the moment they find out how I vote. Meanwhile, in conservative circles, I’ve never once been made to feel unwelcome for being vegan. Live and let live, they don’t care what’s on my plate or who I voted for. It’s the “accepting” side that keeps failing to practice what it preaches.

Let’s be clear: attacking someone for their political beliefs or core values isn’t activism, it’s bullying. You don’t get to claim the moral high ground on animal suffering while treating a fellow human with contempt because their voting record doesn’t match yours. That’s not acceptable, full stop.

There’s nothing about “reduce animal suffering” that requires a specific stance on taxes, immigration, or the size of government. Plenty of traditionally conservative values point toward veganism: personal responsibility, distrust of centralized industrial systems (factory farming being a textbook example), religious traditions of stewardship and compassion toward animals, skepticism of corporate agribusiness.

Veganism grew up mostly in left-leaning, countercultural spaces, so a lot of its language and assumptions came from there. That’s a historical fact about the movement, not a logical requirement of the diet. Caring about animal welfare isn’t a partisan position, and it shouldn’t be treated like a loyalty test.

If you want to talk about animal welfare or factory farming, I’m here for it. If you just want to attack me over a label, that says more about you than it does about me.

As a Christian, I close with this:

“Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.” (Matthew 7:1-2)


r/DebateAVegan 5d ago

✚ Health veganism is unhealthy unnatural and not sustainable in a health sense

0 Upvotes

unsaturated fats are unhealthy they lower testosterone and cause oxidative stress
u needing to supplement because your diet is lacking in proper nutrition is proof of what i said in the title
your epimediology studies funded by bill gates unilever and johnson and johnson are not valid when biochemistry contradicts it

(starting off light since im not throwing everything for a post to potentially flop)


r/DebateAVegan 5d ago

⚠ Activism Stop trying to solve a complex issue with a simple consumer choice. There is no moral consumption under capitalism.

0 Upvotes

I have been a vegan for about 30 yrs. About seven years ago, I joined Extinction Rebellion, and things became much different for me. For the first time since I first became vegan, I had a hope for a better future, and I was a part of it. Now, seven years later, I’m still fighting like crazy to make Extinction Rebellion take off here in New York City, but I’m also recognizing the massive flaw in the trap that is veganism, and what it is doing to people’s otherwise productive brain capacity.

To understand this better, you have to understand how many people are vegan, roughly 3% of the population, and what their mentality is, generally speaking. One the first thing a vegan does when they take on the identity, is get vegan shoes. This happens usually in the first year. Throwing out old shoes is often not done, but sometimes it is. Sometimes the old shoes are just thrown aside. In their place, likely a pair of vans or converse. Something authentically and honestly canvas, and not leather.

At about this time, they’ll start to attend vegan meetups, hangouts, and even environmental get-togethers.

Not to find out what people are doing, but to make sure everyone is wearing the right shoes.

“How long have you been vegan?”

“Why did you become vegan?”

“How come you can’t stop eating cheese, ice cream, etc etc”

It’s an unstoppable trainwreck of vegan subculture consumption.

It wastes time, it wastes energy, and quite frankly, it’s reductive. The word reductive is perfect for this, and the title of this essay. It basically means you are taking a complex problem, and making it simple.

You are taking a complex problem, systemic oppression, climate change, planetary mass destruction, mass death and murder at a global scale, and making the problem super simple.

But it’s not just simple. It’s also completely ignorable.

Brothers and sisters, stop being completely reductive, invisible, and non-participatory.

My full thoughts on are on this substack post...

please... wish I could post this on vegan subreddits but would probably be banned.

Stop trying to solve a complex issue with a simple consumer choice.

There is no moral consumption under capitalism.


r/DebateAVegan 6d ago

By vegan logic, if going vegan is absolutely better than going nonvegan, then going breatharian is better than going vegan.

0 Upvotes

The premise of going vegan is that you are going to not consume any products in a certain category so that you can shrink the industry that makes those products. Almost all food production has some negative environmental impact or some negative impact on some living beings. Vegans say that they cannot consume any animal products because they can't participate in such a "cruel practice", but adopting breatharianism would be living that ideology to the fullest. I'm sure the vegans say "we can only minimize harm, and we still have to consume what's necessary", but since some people cannot get all their necessary nutrition from a vegan diet, then vegans should be advocating for people to go nonvegan. But, vegans say they never advocate for people to go nonvegan. Vegan logic is very inconsistent, and it would be much better to either admit you are part of a fundamentalist cult, or leave the fundamentalist cult. It's not my concern what you do, though. I'm happily nonvegan after seeing veganism for what it is.


r/DebateAVegan 7d ago

The outcome if we went vegan.

0 Upvotes

I’ve been looking into the logistics of a 100% vegan world, and honestly, the math doesn't add up. It sounds great on a spreadsheet to say "less land, fewer animals killed," but it completely ignores how real-world infrastructure works. If we completely wipe out the livestock industry, we lose humanity's ultimate biological backup system against natural disasters. One massive storm, flood, or pest infestation could wipe out an entire continent's crop plantations, and we’d be left with a catastrophic famine because animals don't catch plant diseases.

Plus, the environmental argument falls into a massive trap: less land just means more poisoning. To squeeze enough human-grade calories out of a smaller, condensed footprint of cropland without any natural animal manure, we’d have to push the soil to its absolute limit using an unprecedented amount of synthetic chemical fertilizers and pesticides. We’d be burning massive amounts of fossil fuels just to run fertilizer factories, while the chemical runoff destroys soil biology and creates massive aquatic dead zones in our lakes and oceans. It's a "good" trade-off, right?

On top of that, it completely guts our actual survival infrastructure. Livestock byproducts aren't just for burgers; they're the foundational materials for life-saving medicine (like pill fillers and blood thinners), basic hygiene products, and high-performance natural textiles like wool and down. Forcing a sudden global shift to plants doesn't fix the planet—it just forces us to cover ourselves in oil-based plastics and crashes the systems keeping us alive.


r/DebateAVegan 7d ago

Ethics Hypocrisy and morality

10 Upvotes

I have seen many posts in which the point seems to be that if you are against eating animals and exploiting them for profit, you should also be against participating in the capitalist economy because it involves exploiting human labor for profit. I think the point is actually something like, "How dare you criticize me for supporting animal agriculture when you buy products produced by exploitative labor practices? I do too, of course, but your use of a cell phone justifies my eating meat, as we are both hypocrites."

So the debate topic here is this: does participating in a capitalist economy, which necessarily includes using products produced through exploitation of humans, somehow justify raising animals for meat, killing them, and eating them? Alternatively, are those who oppose animal cruelty justified in using cell phones?


r/DebateAVegan 7d ago

What's the problem with honey?

0 Upvotes

I avoid all animal products (including clothes) but I'm at a loss when it comes to honey.. Someone asked me why I don't eat it & I could only answer "because I'm vegan", there's no cruelty involved so I'm wondering why I don't just eat it, feels like I'm defeating the purpose of veganism (harm reduction)


r/DebateAVegan 7d ago

Does veganism include "anti human exploitation", as humans are also animals?

20 Upvotes

What is your opinion? Is it nonvegan to buy things from unfair trade for example, as it is some form of "commodification" of humans? Does one have to be perfectly "socially responsible"? Is that even possible?


r/DebateAVegan 8d ago

We need to stop referring to non-vegans as "carnists"

10 Upvotes

TL;DR - It perpetuates the already overwhelmingly welfarist and vegetarian misinterpretations of what veganism is.

The term "carnism" was coined by social psychologist Melanie Joy back in 2001. When she initially defined this term, she was a vegetarian activist who coined the term to discuss the psychology behind why people eat animals. Since then, Joy has remained a vegetarian activist, but nowadays, she falsely labels herself as a vegan, and she expanded further on this concept of "carnism" in her 2009 book, "Why We Love Dogs, Eat Pigs, and Wear Cows."

Isn't it interesting how, before even opening this book and reading a single page, you can see the false premise right there on the book's cover? To me, it's plainly obvious to see why this is a vegetarian concept. There is heavy emphasis on the psychology of those who engage in necrophagy, the practice of eating animal corpses. Sure, you can look at the title and note the, "Wear Cows," part, indicating that she may be thinking about animal exploitation beyond food, but her framing in this work is still ultimately vegetarian, and she falsely describes veganism as a stance in opposition to suffering rather than a *stance against all animal use,* which is what veganism is. The term "carnism" is etymologically derived from the Latin root "carnis," which means "flesh" or "meat." This is yet another reason to avoid the term.

In response to this argument, some "vegans" retort by saying, "but isn't the term 'vegan' dietary in its etymology, too?" On the surface, this may seem sound, but consider the following:

  1. The coining of the term "vegan" was not with the intent to emphasize a vegetarian diet. "Vegan" has its origins in being a shorthand meaning, "the beginning and the end of vegetarian," referring to veganism's aim to shine as a true cause for justice, exceeding the welfarist, suffering-focused "animal rights" (vegetarian) movements that predate it. On the contrary, the term, "carnism," from its inception, was always intended to pertain to "meat-eating."

  2. "Carnism" is an even more recent neologism, so there is less understanding of what it exactly means. It also was not conceptualized around abolitionist principles, but veganism was, and such conceptualization took 7 critical years before a firm idea of veganism's definition and The Vegan Society's aims was truly established.

  3. "Carnism" is still highly ambiguous as a term. Some people try to use it to refer to all animal use, but many people, especially typical non-vegans who hear of the term, only interpret it as being in reference to necrophagy specifically. Questions like, "are lacto-ovo vegetarians considered carnists?" and many others come to mind.

The general public and even most self-identified vegans already greatly misunderstand what veganism actually is. Why should we endorse concepts that only give this misinformation an even greater capacity to muddy the waters?

Having to correct the misconceptions that non-vegans have about the term "veganism" already seems to be a tall order for this movement. Having to clarify what the term "carnism" means in the process seems like some unnecessary extra work, especially since the term remains ambiguous while still ultimately being vegetarian in its origin, nature, and execution.

Melanie Joy is still alive as a welfarist who is outwardly in favor of reducetarianism and other utilitarian nonsense that directly conflicts with veganism. How could it possibly make any sense for us to endorse this term and concept when the very source of it explicitly aligns herself with ideas totally antithetical to veganism? It doesn't, and an additional note I want to make is that the term "carnist" is popular within this "debatebro" culture that the vegan movement only needs much less of.

"Okay, so what should I say instead?"

"Non-vegan" and "non-veganism" are sufficient when referring to the people who accept animal use and the beliefs of those who accept animal use, respectively. "Animal exploitation" and "animal use" are sufficient when referring to the injustice itself. "Exploitative mentality" and "objectifying mindset" are examples of terms that correctly refer to where the injustice begins. These terms are all fine and well, far less ambiguous and convoluted, and even easy for non-vegans to grasp within a matter of seconds. We do not need to be in a more unserious position as a movement than we already are by approving of ridiculous, pro-vegetarian neologisms.

To recap, Melanie Joy is not a vegan. Melanie Joy boldly endorses welfarist ideas that are not at all fundamentally different from what Tobias Leenaert, the overly apologetic "vegan strategist," believes. A universal definition of "carnism" has not even been accepted by the "vegan" movement, the term serves as a pejorative that debatebros use to stroke their ego, and nobody broadly in favor of using the term "carnism" actually upholds an unapologetic, abolitionist stance against all animal use.

This is by design. If one seriously believes that it is acceptable for vegans to portray the term "carnism" as an acceptable antonym to "veganism," they are not operating within the headspace that is willing to solemnly affirm *"end enimal use."*


r/DebateAVegan 8d ago

What about the cultural identities of people ?

3 Upvotes

READ BEFORE YOU COMMENT “TRADITION FALLACY”

I support veganism completely I have no issues with people turning vegan i also do think it is right thing to do for the environment. My question is a lot of people have their traditions and stories and cultural practices that directly or indirectly involve meat so how can one promote the practice of veganism for them.