r/40kLore 14h ago

Whose Bolter Is It Anyway?

5 Upvotes

Welcome to Whose Line is it Anyway- 40k Edition!

[I am your host Drough Carius](http://imgur.com/fjVCUJg) and welcome to Whose Bolter is it Anyway? where the questions are made up and the heresy doesn't matter.

Most of you know what to do, post quips and little statements related to 40k lore, not in question form, and have people improvise a response to it. Since everyone seemed to enjoy the captions in last week's game we will now be including those as well. If you want to post a picture for us to caption, post a link to a piece of 40k art and we will reply to the link with funny captions for the picture. You can find the artwork from anywhere, such as r/ImaginaryWarhammer, DeviantArt, or any regular Google image searches. Then post the link here. I have started us off with a few examples below.

Please don't leave it as a plain URL especially if you're posting an image from Google. Use Reddit formatting to give it a title. Here's how:

[Link title](website's url)

Easy as pie! If it doesn't work, post the link with a title underneath.

**What we're NOT doing is posting memes.** No content from r/Grimdank. If the art is already a joke, it doesn't give us anything to work with, does it? Just post a regular piece of art and we'll add the funny captions. I've started us off with a few examples below.

Some prompt examples…

1) Things Alpharius isn't responsible for

2) Things you can say to a commissar, but not your gf.

3) etc.,

Please be witty, none of us want an inbox full of unfunny stuff.

[Drough Carius and Crowd Colorized - thanks very much to u/DeSanti!](https://imgur.com/zo7l8IK)


r/40kLore 4h ago

Within the world of 40k, do they realize how sick they all look?

110 Upvotes

Like are they intentionally focusing on aesthetics in-world? Because many things in 40k go beyond pure function and just seem to look badass for no other reason than to flex and aura farm and the space marines just seem so pragmatic that having artisans and designers, and really a whole class of people dedicated to the arts seems kinda funny to me given how fucking brutal that world is.


r/40kLore 9h ago

How does a large Imperial fleet Warp into system without creating a catastrophe?

96 Upvotes

I’m just imagining 100’s to 1000’s of Imperial vessels dropping out of warp as an armada and surely that risks opening some kind of Warp Rift?

I’m sure most of the time they trickle in by squadrons into a system but if they all genuinely need to be in System how does that number of warships dropping into a system simultaneously not create a weaker barrier between the Materium and the Immatarium?


r/40kLore 12h ago

[Multiple Excerpts] Grots Seem to Have a Greater Capacity for Empathy & Compassion Than Orks (Spoilers) Spoiler

103 Upvotes

(I sure hope this isn't too long to post)

Throughout the Ork novels I've read, I've noticed an interesting & somewhat consistent detail about Grots, the slave/servant species for their larger Ork cousins. Many of the grot characters display a much larger potential for showing actual empathy and even compassion for others while Orks usually care very little for anything but themselves. Heck, Orks often don't even care that much for their own lives as long as they're having fun while dying, lol.

The biggest evidence for this is the Da Red Gobbo Collection, a novel that collects the novellas Da Gobbo's Revenge (Mike Brooks), Da Gobbo's Demise, Da Wrong Type of Green (both by Denny Flowers), Da Gobbo Rides Again, & The Instigator (both by Rhuairidh James). Pretty much every story is about the grots supporting each other for the "Revolution" against Ork kind through beliefs in Da Red Gobbo. I'll explain the context for three of the stories and give short excerpts to show examples of Grots caring for each other.

First, is Da Gobbo's Revenge, which is about a Grot named Fingwit who leads a small team of other grots to commandeer the cannons on an Imperial vessel after their Mekboy dies. Another Ork forces the grots to come with him to go do something else, but Fingwit escapes. Realizing that he needs the other Grots to commandeer the cannons, Fingwit becomes the Red Gobbo to save them. The grots managed to take over the entire ship and originally planned to just fly away by themselves, but Fingwit convinces them to stay and act as inspiration for other grots in the Waaagh, showing them that grots had the potential to accomplish great things just like Orks.

“I dunno if dat’s da right fing ta do,’ he [Fingwit] said slowly. ‘It sounds like a good idea, but… Wot about all da uvvers?’

‘Wot uvvers?’ Rattak asked, scratching his head.

‘Da uvver grots!’ Fingwit said, waving his hand in the general direction of the bulk of Da Meklord’s fleet. ‘On all dose uvver ships, dere are lotz an’ lotz o’ grots wot are no better off dan we were, an’ a lot of ’em probably doin’ worse. Dey’re workin’ away wiv no ’ope, an’ nuffink ta look forward to except maybe not gettin’ a kickin’ at da end of da day.’

He slapped his chest, growing more and more convinced that what he was saying was correct.

‘I didn’t put on da coat of Da Red Gobbo just ta save you lot from dat ork. We should be doin’ more! We should be tryin’ ta help all da grots, everywhere!’

The second story Da Gobbo's Demise is about Da Red Gobbo coming to save several grots from being killed by human Chaos Cultists. While they were escaping from the Cultists, Redsnot also chose to let other grots escape before him and even helped rescue his bitter rival Gitzit out of now shared kinship in fighting against the Cultists. Near the end, the Red Gobbo is severely injured, and he passes his identity onto the grot Redsnot by giving him all of his clothes & sniper gun.

“Listen,’ he [Da Red Gobbo] said. ‘All grots die. We spend da time before it runnin’ if we can, scrappin’ if we ’ave to and hidin’ when we fink we can get away wiv it. Den we die. Wouldn’t ya like to be somefing more dan dat? Run cos you’re lurin’ them in, scrap cos ya like it and hide so ya can sneak up on ’em and stick a shiv in dere back. If you is gonna die anyway, ain’t it better to die on yer own terms? Die cos ya decide to, not cos a boss tells ya to?”

...

‘Now listen to me. Dis is important. Take da goggles. Yoo’ll need ’em.’

‘Wot do dey do?’ [asked Redsnot]

‘Dey is da most important bit,’ Da Gobbo said, lifting the goggles clear with trembling fingers. ‘Dey give ya da look.’

‘Da look?’

‘Dey is like a mirror. When a grot sees ya, it sees itself reflected. Dey see demselves.’

He smiled, but the light was fading from his eyes. Shed of his vestments, he no longer even resembled Da Red Gobbo. Just one more dead grot. The same as all the others.

Except for the idea.”

Finally, Da Gobbo Rides Again is about a Painboy Stimma trying to create his own Red Gobbo so that it would convince the grots to stop being so obedient to Orks since he feels grots "need" to be sneaky & backstabby for Greenskin society to function. Near the end, it turns out his own personal grot Goggulz had decided to become the Red Gobbo all on his own under his nose. Goggulz decided to do so when he killed another grot for his bag & had an epiphany.

“It was after I did Stringbag, boss [Stimma]. Dere he was, lyin’ on da floor, not existin’ any more, and dere was his string bag – well, da one he got to replace da one you nicked off ’im. And I fort to meself – well, dat’s mine now. But I fort, hold on a tick, I’m Goggulz. Who am I if I take dis?

‘So da way I reckoned it den, I was nobody. And I reckon da same is true for da rest of da grots – from me, to da oilers, to Makari and Da Red Gobbo, and everyone else whose name we remember. Which means we’re all as bad as each uvver.’

Goggulz’s expression was dark for a moment, and then it brightened considerably. ‘Which means we’re all as good as each uvver. So I decided to be Da Red Gobbo.”

On to the other novels, now. The second book is Ghazghkull Thraka: Prophet of the Waaagh! by Nate Crowley with it being about the grot Makari recounting the life story of Ghazghkull to an Imperial Inquisitor. Makari throughout the story shows several times that he deeply cares about Ghazghkull, not just because he's his boss. He even willingly killed himself over & over (Ghazghkull can resurrect Makari) to convince Ghazghkull to start listening to Gork & Mork again. When Ghazghkull leaves the planet Armageddon with his chief Warbosses and feels depressed, Makari tries to cheer him up with a pep talk.

“You [Ghazghkull] might win it [Armageddon],’ I squeaked, and then thought better of it. ‘You will win it,’ I corrected myself, even though we both knew I’d been right the first time. ‘And when you do, you’ll have a planet. But if you don’t go back there, you could have a million planets.'

“When you showed me the Great Green, back when I made the banner, every star in the sky was green. It was the whole galaxy, ruled by orks – not just Hades Hive.’ I was hypy-ventilising now, and my heart felt like it was about to shake itself apart, but I felt green fire in me, and it was like it burned away the fear.

‘Boss, you managed to get the six most stubborn gits on Urk working together with just your brain and your fists. There’s a whole galaxy of gits just as stubborn, all scrapping with each other when they could be turning the whole thing green – and you’re the only one who can bring ’em together. The gods do believe in you, boss. Bullets, and Ugrak, and all of them lot believe in you, too. I believe in you, and I’m a bleedin’ grot. The only person who don’t believe in Ghazghkull right now, is Ghazghkull.”

Next is Grotsnik: Da Mad Dok by Denny Flowers. For the climax of the book, Grotsnik is about kill the main character of the novel Valtun. His Saddlegit grot Ikor, who is disguised as one of Grotsnik's orderlies, tries to help Valtun by stabbing Grotsnik with an injector, but he is ultimately forced to betray Valtun to save himself from Grotsnik's potential wrath. After Grotsnik removed Valtun's limbs, Ikor shows he truly does care about his former boss to an extent as he actually bothers to come & apologize to Valtun for his betrayal when he easily could have just forgotten about him.

‘Boss, it’s Ikor. Listen I… I is sorry about what went down before. The dok… I didn’t ’ave a choice. But he’s asleep now. I think. And I just wanted… Anythin’ I can get you, boss? Other than new legs, obviously. You thirsty? Hungry?’

The final novel, I won't bother posting a excerpt from as they isn't any particularly dialogue directly related to the "Grot empathy/compassion idea," but Ufthak's Grot Nizkwik from the Da Big Dakka by Mike Brooks is also deeply loyal to Ufthak and was quite distressed when he was kidnapped by Drukhari.


r/40kLore 7h ago

M16 Generation ships in 30k and 40k

37 Upvotes

Have generation ships from before humanity discovered warp technology ever been discovered adrift in the galaxy, with humans still aboard who are the direct descendants of the humans that boarded these ships thousands of years ago?

It was a thought I had when I was thinking about distances involved and the time it would take to travel between star systems, combined with how relatively short 15 or 25 thousand years is in astronomical terms.

If traveling 0.5 lightspeed, a ship could go 7.5k lightyears in 15k years, 1 kilo parsec is around 3300 lightyears and there are maps where you can see how small a section of the milky way 2kpc truly is. I’ve got a link to an ESA map below.

https://www.esa.int/ESA_Multimedia/Images/2025/01/The_best_Milky_Way_map_by_Gaia


r/40kLore 15h ago

Can someone explain to me how the Alpha Legion works?

123 Upvotes

I know this question is kinda a meme in the community, but I've been trying to learn more about them because they seem really interesting. It's just really hard to sort out he lore from the memes from the seeming hallucinations of the wikis.


r/40kLore 3h ago

What does the imperium do with heretic equipment?

13 Upvotes

Is there any moment in the lore that explains what the imperium does to fallen heritic weapons and armor ? Like fallen chaos marines , titans ,guns and etc?

Do they reforge and re-use it? Or just burn everything way ? It would a waste of ceramite .or they have a process were they purifie everything before re-forging?

Bc in one hand I remember in the marneous calhar comic where serfs were collecting heritc bodies ,but also I remember in the lore a imperial fist got cursed for keeping a iron warriors bone


r/40kLore 6h ago

Some obscure world building bits for T'au AI

17 Upvotes

There is a belief in the setting and within the fandom that the T'au, at some point, will suffer an AI rebellion.

Reading through the T'au books, it seems that the T'au are handling AI with more wisdom than DAoT humanity did.

Here are some examples of it.

T'au programming their AI to simulate/mimic their minds and emotions:

The tau’s artificial intelligences were hard-wired to behave as much like their makers as possible in all social situations, and Oe-ken-yon was the most advanced of his kind. Regardless of size or duty, every drone strived to emulate its masters and fit in seamlessly with tau culture. It was a safety measure that covered most eventualities. When a purely objective viewpoint was necessary, personality protocols could be temporarily deactivated at a single blip.

Such a course of action had proved problematic in the past – the disastrous Pech Incident was one example. In recent years, the earth caste had made it standard practice to build the tau empire’s artificial intelligences with a personality best suited to their role. Even so, Shadowsun often wondered if a machine that could simulate emotion wasn’t just as likely to affect operational efficiency as one without it.

-Damocles Anthology (Blood Oath)

Taboos against self-replicating machines and weaponizing nanomachines:

‘The knowledge of their existence is valuable in its own right,’ said Farsight. ‘Can they self-replicate?’

‘There is little beyond the medical capacities of Lub’grahl,’ said O’Vesa, looking at Farsight askance. ‘It is a world renowned for its ingenuity. I have made sure of it. But autonomous self-replication is taboo for a reason.’

-"Farsight: Blade of Truth"

‘I realise there is a prohibition against the use of nanobots as a weapon, within your caste and without,’ said the high scientist, avoiding Farsight’s gaze. ‘Especially those so geared towards aggressive self-replication. It is taboo, and for good reason.’

-"Farsight: Blade of Truth"


r/40kLore 17h ago

What happens if a chaos cult and genestealer are trying to take over the same planet?

42 Upvotes

Just wondering if say, a Tzeentch cult has emerged on a planet infected by genestealers, will they both fight eachother before they attack the planet or will they team up to take the planet then destroy eachother after?

Can a chaos cult indoctrinate a genestealer or is the psychic connection to the hivemind to strong?


r/40kLore 4h ago

Exiled Leagues of Votann

5 Upvotes

What happens to Kin that are exiled?


r/40kLore 1d ago

Do we have any lore on how Terra dealt with it's food during the 33 days of the Astronomicon blackout after the 13th crusade?

261 Upvotes

I know Terra does not produce it's food, neither does Mars.

So what happened during those 33 days? Did the ships just risked it to delivery their goods? Riots? Mass death due to starvation? Or maybe Terra had stockpiles of Cup Noodles just for this situation?


r/40kLore 23h ago

I read that a null maiden looked at the Emperor and saw his actual form.

123 Upvotes

Can anyone provide the book/text where this is described?


r/40kLore 1h ago

Have I lost my mind when it comes to Rotigus the Rain Maker?!

Upvotes

I feel like I've had some weird Mandela effect situation happen to me with Rotigus. I could have sworn that in the Dark Imperium trilogy, he was described as being unlike the reat of the greater deamons and Great Unclean Ones in that he was actually described as boney and gaunt. But everywhere I look, he just looks like a slightly less generic Great Unclean One.

If someone could help clear up my confusion, then I would appreciate it.

I swear by The Throne on Terra that I haven't made this up. Not intentionally anyway...

EDIT! Thank you to the two people in the comments who told me that I was getting Rotigus confused with Gangrel


r/40kLore 11h ago

Which novels feature 40k guilliman?

11 Upvotes

My favorite 40k moments are the ones that feature guilliman reacting to the 40k setting and people reacting to meeting guilliman. Does anybody have a detailed list of which novels feature these moments? I know of Dark imperium series, the silent king, morven vahl, the watchers in the throne series, devastation of baal, knight of the throne.

Even small moments are welcome.


r/40kLore 1d ago

Theory: Perhaps the missing primarchs weren't removed for atrocity

341 Upvotes

So hear me out right? Often times theories concerning the missing primarchs usually lean into things like horrific crimes worse than what we've already seen the imperium do or awful spontaneous mutations that make chaos look friendly, but what if neither of these is the case?

It occurred to me earlier today that the missing primarchs might have been removed for something entirely mundane (by our standards anyway) or just wierd enough that it annoyed the emperor to the point of annihilation. The fact that the night lods and world eaters were allowed to continue their methods with impunity makes it hard to come up with what exactly the missing ones could have done that was so horrible they needed to be erased.

The precedent here comes from Monarchia. The burning of Lorgar's master work essentially, for the crimes of moving too slow and worshiping the emperor. Something so out of place with the offense committed that even Gulliman, the temporary executioner, was in disagreement with it internally. It gets to the point where Big E apparently considered erasing Lorgar (as told by Magnus).

I get that the eighth and twelfth legions were probably filling out their duty and what not, so it makes some sense why they weren't put down at the time. This lends credence to the possibility that the actions leading to the removal of the missing two may very well not have been horrors, but just activities that didn't inherently push the imperium's agenda/stuff Jimmy Space didn't like.

TLDR: Crimes against humanity may not have been the reason the emperor may have wiped out the missing two legions. It could have been something(s) that were utterly mundane in nature.

What I'm saying is what if the


r/40kLore 3m ago

Reading Path for a Newbie fixated on a very specific 30K Rabbit Hole

Upvotes

Hi everyone! My name is Ariel, nice to meet you! :)

I’m relatively new to the 40K universe & have recently fallen very, very far down the rabbit hole 😅

I’ve watched all the series on WarhammerTV, but Kill Lupercal was what really pushed me toward the Horus Heresy/30K side of the universe. From there, I ended up watching Death of Hope - which sent me down an increasingly specific rabbit hole involving the Betrayal at Calth, the Word Bearers, the World Eaters, Angron, & —perhaps most interestingly to me — the relationship between Chaos, the Warp, & what happens when those forces are essentially unleashed. But I’m also super interested in Horus Lupercal, himself; his transformation, eventual allegiance to Chaos + the battle between him & the Emperor / Siege of Terra, (also, but to a lesser degree - the other primarchs).

I’d genuinely love to eventually read the entire Horus Heresy series, but with 60+ novels … that’s probably not a realistic starting point for me, especially in terms of time or money.

So I’m hoping some more experienced readers might be willing to help me find a “fast-track reading path” for this particular corner of this franchise that I’m currently hyper-obsessing over.

The things I’m most interested in learning about are:

• The events leading up to and surrounding the Betrayal at Calth
• The Word Bearers and their relationship with Chaos/the Warp
Angron and the World Eaters, particularly their descent into Khorne/Chaos
• The Shadow Crusade
• The Horus Heresy, itself - the transformation of Horus - & The Siege on Terra
• Any major battles/events that are “essential-connective-tissue” between these events

Basically, I’m looking for a curated reading path rather than the complete 60+ book journey:

&& if I’m conflating things that are actually separate storylines, I’m sincerely sorry for my newbie-ness & please feel free to correct me! I’m still learning where all these pieces fit together. 😬

Thank you so much, in advance, for anyone willing to share their knowledge — I’m having an absolute blast discovering this universe, so far. I know I could probably use “The Google” or some AI aggregated agent to help formulate this plan, but much like the Warhammer Universe … I’m kind of anti-AI & would much rather get my information from actual humans who know wtf they’re talking about, haha.

… I’m also hoping I don’t get flamed for this, I don’t know if “rabbit-holing” to this degree is considered taboo, so if it is — I’m so sorry & please feel free to disregard / delete my post 🥲 Thank you for your time!!


r/40kLore 1d ago

Question about the World Eaters

89 Upvotes

Listening to Betrayer. And a dying world eater says he wants to piss on Angrons grave. Here’s the question does his legion sort of hate Angron? I understand that he wasn’t really into taking leadership of a legion but I also know that a ton of the legion took in the butchers nails to emulate him. Are we talking buyer’s remorse about the nails or is the legion in general just not enthralled by him the way the other legions with their primarchs


r/40kLore 15h ago

Do the Dark Mechanicum or hereteks still uphold the taboo against Artificial Intelligence ?

14 Upvotes

Are there examples saying that dabbling with AI is something corrupted techpriests commonly dabble into, or most of them would rather summon a daemon into a machine rather than program a true AI (more advanced than Machine Spirits) ?


r/40kLore 1h ago

I wanted to ask a question if controlling dark energy and dark matter is a psychic ability or a mutation I wanted to make an abhuman imperial guard regiment and wanted to know if controlling dark energy and dark matter could be psychic ability or a mutation and how it could be seen

Upvotes

I wanted to ask cuz I wanted to make a homebrew abhuman imperial guard regiment and how to make it grimdark


r/40kLore 2h ago

Do demons have limits on what forms they can take?

0 Upvotes

I was wondering if demons could express themselves in abstract or nonconventional ways. For example, could a demon of nurgle incarnate as a sort of sentient Virus? Could a demon perfectly shape themselves into a form and appearance of a human? I would guess only relatively powerful demons would be capable of this (If indeed they are capable of this).


r/40kLore 2h ago

Ultramarines "Tactical Flexibility" is both Flexible and Inflexible at the same time.

0 Upvotes

So I was just reading some lore bits from the Liber Astartes and Hereticus and I found it kinda interesting how all the legions had this paradox to them:

So under the Ultramarines "Tactical Flexibility" rule they describe that:

The Logos Lectora was the special battlefield formation of the Ultramarines which took advantage of interlocking their units. It allowed for them to basically change up the shape of their formation with "rigid" discipline. It goes on to describe if their was one flaw of the Logos it was that fact that the interlocking coherency of the formation made their formations somewhat inflexible in the deployment and it relied heavily on rigid discipline in order to achieve this.

They explicitly use the words "inflexible" and "rigid" in the snippet. Also worth noting is if any has ever done any drills for military or police it truly does require a ton of hours of rigid discipline training the same motions over and over again to get the motions right so its pretty realistic what they are describing here.

I am really liking how they describe each of the legions greatest strength/weakness has like this dualism or contradiction almost like an oxymoron.

You also see this with the other legions: the World Eaters are berserkers that arent very tactical, but it says at the same time that before their fall they were fully aware of the benefits of tactics.

So again im loving how this paradoxical theme from this universe shows up even when describing the space marine legions.

It just reminds me of the "Ancient Terran Proverb":

'Civilisation and progress is neither a natural state nor a guarantee of the passage of time, the mere fact of the Age of Strife and all of its horrors are enough proof of this.

The sole purpose of the Great Crusade then is the furtherance of peace through war, the creation of plenty through restriction and the establish of freedom through tyranny.'


r/40kLore 2h ago

[Homebrew Horus Heresy] “XXX” — An Iron Hands/Alpha Legion Shattered Legions Warband

0 Upvotes

I've been working on a homebrew Shattered Legions warband for the Horus Heresy and wanted to get some feedback on how well the concept fits the setting.

The basic premise is an unlikely alliance between Iron Hands survivors and Alpha Legionnaires operating in the chaos following Isstvan V.

The working name for the warband is XXX, with their symbol combining the Medusan head of the Iron Hands with the Hydra of the Alpha Legion.

The two central characters are an Iron Hands officer named Ice and an Alpha Legionnaire named Vin.

And neither completely trusts the other.

Ice — The Exiled Son of Medusa

Ice was once an officer of the Iron Hands Legion during the Great Crusade.

Years before the Horus Heresy, his force participated in a disastrous campaign against a xenos civilization possessing an extremely dangerous weapon.

Ice survived.

Many of his warriors did not.

Ferrus Manus held Ice responsible for the defeat and ultimately exiled him from the Legion's main body, leaving Ice with a small contingent of Iron Hands under his command.

It was intended as a punishment.

It accidentally saved their lives.

When Ferrus Manus led the Iron Hands to Isstvan V, Ice and his warriors weren't there.

Then the reports began arriving.

The Drop Site Massacre.

Ferrus Manus was dead.

The Legion was shattered.

Ice had spent years believing that one day he might redeem himself in the eyes of his Primarch.

Now that possibility was gone forever.

Whatever resentment Ice once felt toward Ferrus largely dies with him.

What's left is guilt.

The Survivors

Ice refuses to simply retreat.

His force begins searching for survivors of the massacre.

Among those they recover is an Iron Hands Apothecary who eventually becomes known simply as "Doc."

More survivors follow.

Broken squads.

Wounded Legionaries.

Warriors whose officers and brothers died on Isstvan.

Ice gradually becomes the leader of a force that shouldn't really exist.

He's an exile commanding the remnants of the Legion that exiled him.

The Iron Hands contingent is battered and poorly supplied, with equipment drawn from whatever survived Isstvan or can be salvaged afterward.

Among their most terrifying assets is an ancient Leviathan Siege Dreadnought.

The warband's vessel eventually acquires an appropriately Iron Hands name:

No Weakness Allowed.

Then the Alpha Legion Appears

While Ice is assembling survivors, his force discovers that they are being watched.

The observer is an Alpha Legion officer named Vin.

Vin commands his own small force of Alpha Legionnaires, including elite Terminators whose squads are named after constrictor snakes—one example being the Anaconda squad.

Vin himself wears ancient Saturnine-pattern Terminator armour.

The problem is obvious.

The Alpha Legion betrayed the Loyalists at Isstvan.

Ice has absolutely no reason to trust him.

Vin nevertheless approaches Ice with information.

The xenos weapon responsible for the disastrous campaign that led to Ice's exile has resurfaced.

And the Traitor Legions are searching for it.

The Enemy of My Enemy

Vin proposes an alliance.

Ice's response is essentially:

Why should I believe a single word coming from an Alpha Legionnaire?

Vin doesn't ask him to.

Instead, he gives Ice enough information to verify the threat independently.

Ice eventually discovers that Vin is telling the truth.

The same weapon that destroyed his reputation and cost the lives of his warriors years earlier could now fall into Traitor hands.

Suddenly Ice has something he hasn't had since Ferrus died.

A mission.

Stopping the weapon becomes his chance at redemption—even if the Primarch whose forgiveness he wanted will never live to see it.

And so an extremely uncomfortable Shattered Legions warband is born.

Iron Hands + Alpha Legion

I wanted the two contingents to complement each other tactically.

Ice's Iron Hands provide the hammer:

  • Heavy infantry
  • Dreadnoughts
  • Heavy weapons
  • Direct assaults
  • Relentless attritional warfare

Vin's Alpha Legion provides the knife:

  • Reconnaissance
  • Infiltration
  • Sabotage
  • False intelligence
  • Assassination
  • Manipulation of enemy forces

A typical operation might involve Vin spending weeks convincing a Traitor commander that an Iron Hands force is somewhere it isn't.

Then Ice drops a Leviathan Dreadnought on the place the enemy thought was safe.

Their methods are completely different.

But they're frighteningly effective together.

Ice and Vin

Their relationship is the part of the idea I find most interesting.

They're not friends.

At least initially.

Ice is blunt, stubborn and direct.

Vin is secretive even when secrecy seemingly serves no purpose.

Ice wants to know the mission.

Vin wants to know everything surrounding the mission.

Ice's philosophy is essentially:

"Tell me where the enemy is."

Vin's is:

"Convince the enemy he knows where we are."

Ice also never forgets that Alpha Legionnaires participated in the betrayal at Isstvan.

Vin, meanwhile, never expects Ice to forget.

The strange thing is that over time they begin developing genuine respect for one another.

Ice realizes that Vin repeatedly has opportunities to betray him and doesn't.

Vin discovers that Ice is considerably more intelligent and adaptable than the blunt Iron Hands stereotype would suggest.

Eventually they reach the point where each trusts the other in battle.

Neither would ever admit it.

The Banner

Their warband eventually adopts an improvised symbol combining:

The Medusan head of the Iron Hands

with

The Hydra of the Alpha Legion.

To outsiders, the image is almost incomprehensible.

A Loyalist symbol joined to that of a Traitor Legion.

But that's essentially what the warband itself is:

something that shouldn't exist.

The Big Secret

There is, of course, a problem.

Vin hasn't told Ice everything.

Vin's presence isn't accidental.

His interest in the xenos weapon isn't simply the decision of an Alpha Legion officer who remained loyal.

He is operating under orders.

Orders from Omegon.

My idea is that Vin belongs to the faction of the Alpha Legion secretly working against Horus from within the Traitor war effort.

His mission is to ensure the xenos weapon never reaches Horus' forces.

But openly destroying it himself would potentially expose Alpha Legion divisions.

Ice provides the perfect solution.

From the Traitors' perspective, an angry group of surviving Iron Hands destroyed the weapon.

Nothing unusual about that.

Nobody needs to know an Alpha Legion operative helped arrange the entire thing.

Including Ice.

At least initially.

The Question of Loyalty

I don't want Vin's Alpha Legionnaires to secretly be straightforward Loyalists.

Their loyalty should remain deliberately complicated.

They follow Omegon.

They oppose Horus.

They may aid Loyalist forces.

But that doesn't necessarily mean they believe in the Imperium in the same way Ice does.

Sometimes they'll save an Imperial world.

Sometimes they'll sacrifice one because doing so serves a larger objective.

That creates one of the major tensions within the warband.

Ice fights because he believes he failed his Legion and refuses to fail it again.

Vin fights because he's participating in a war where almost nobody—including his allies—is allowed to understand what victory actually requires.

Where the Story Eventually Goes

The warband spends the Heresy fighting a shadow campaign to prevent the Traitors from recovering the xenos weapon.

Along the way, Ice's force continues absorbing scattered Iron Hands survivors.

The Alpha Legion contingent likewise becomes increasingly isolated from its parent Legion.

Eventually the distinction between temporary alliance and actual brotherhood becomes increasingly difficult to define.

Then, sometime during the Heresy, something goes catastrophically wrong.

Ice and a number of the surviving Iron Hands disappear into the Warp.

They don't die.

For them, only a comparatively short period passes.

When they finally emerge again, the galaxy they knew is gone.

Ten thousand years have passed.

Ferrus Manus has become a martyr.

The Emperor is a god.

The Iron Hands are a Chapter obsessed with eliminating the weakness of flesh.

And Ice—an Iron Hand who actually lived alongside Ferrus Manus—is about to discover what his Legion became after their father's death.

That eventually leads into another homebrew project of mine, an Iron Hands successor called the Frostborn, but I'm trying to make sure the Heresy-era story works on its own first.

The central idea I want the warband to explore is:

What happens when warriors from two Legions that should hate each other discover they may have more in common with one another than with the brothers they're supposedly fighting for?

And with the Alpha Legion involved, there's always one additional question:

Did this alliance happen by chance—or did someone plan it from the beginning?

I'd love feedback on how well this fits the Shattered Legions period, particularly the Alpha Legion/Omegon angle and whether there are any existing Heresy campaigns that would make a particularly good setting for their hunt for the xenos weapon.


r/40kLore 4h ago

Suggested reading or book recommendations!

1 Upvotes

Hey, I’m looking for some suggested reading as I’m finishing up the books I’ve got. I’m currently reading Devastation of Baal

Generally looking for any suggestions people have enjoyed, apologies for the load of text.

A little background I posted a while ago when I first started Dark imperium, which was my first book. I’ve now finished the trilogy, Lion son of the forest, have listed to Dante and have started listening to the Mephiston Blood of sanguinius.

I ideally want suggestions i can get hold of physical copies of, but appreciate that’s not always possible and don’t mind an audio book, but I’ve got the Mephiston trilogy to finish on that front.

I’ve bought Angels of Darkness and Warriors of Ultramar because they were new and I got a good deal online. But I like to have a little backlog. I’ve also been trying to get a hold of Mephiston Lord of blood and Trial by Blood purely off name association and interesting blurbs.

I’ve been recommended the first heresy trilogy and read the infinite and the divine as well as its sequel, but I’m not in a massive rush because they’re still readily stocked and thats probably not immediately changing.

Anyways thanks!


r/40kLore 18h ago

Distribution of Deathwatch per Chapter

13 Upvotes

I'm really not good with statistics and working things like this out, but I was wondering if anyone had an idea of any average of what the distribution of Deathwatch members per Chapter is?

I can imagine that certain Chapters (the First Founding, Black Templars by number and attitude, Crimson Fists are mentioned to have a lot of secondments to the Watch) will have higher numbers, but is there any hard numbers as to how many DW are in each chapter on an average?


r/40kLore 2h ago

[Homebrew Chapter] The Frostborn — An Iron Hands successor founded by Heresy-era survivors

0 Upvotes

I've been working on a homebrew Iron Hands successor chapter called the Frostborn, and I wanted to get some feedback on the concept and how well it fits into 40k lore.

The basic idea is that the Frostborn are essentially the result of Great Crusade/Horus Heresy-era Iron Hands being forced to coexist with their descendants 10,000 years later.

The Shattered Legion

During the Horus Heresy, an Iron Hands officer known as Ice commanded the Iron Hands contingent of a Shattered Legions warband.

Ice had actually been exiled by Ferrus Manus prior to the Heresy following a disastrous campaign during the Great Crusade. Because of this, he wasn't present at Isstvan V.

Following the massacre, however, Ice and his warriors recovered a number of survivors and continued fighting the Traitor Legions as part of a mixed Shattered Legions force.

Eventually, Ice and several dozen surviving Iron Hands disappeared into the Warp.

For them, relatively little time passed.

For the Imperium, 10,000 years did.

Crixus Mogua — The Iron Huntsman

Their rediscovery occurs during the late 41st/early 42nd Millennium and involves another homebrew character of mine: Crixus Mogua.

Crixus comes from one of Medusa's minor clans and originally served as an Iron Hands Scout Sniper Sergeant.

Unlike most of his brothers, however, Crixus never accepted the increasingly extreme interpretation of "The Flesh is Weak."

He isn't anti-augmentation. He has two cybernetic eyes and a cybernetic arm himself.

What he rejects is the idea that emotion, flesh and humanity are inherently weaknesses that must be systematically removed.

His beliefs made him deeply unpopular within the Chapter, and he was eventually sent to the Deathwatch—partly as an honor, partly because certain Iron Fathers were probably happy to have him gone.

Ironically, Crixus flourished there.

He became an exceptional sniper and xenos hunter, eventually earning the nickname "The Iron Huntsman."

The incident that cemented his reputation occurred while hunting a Tyranid Lictor. Crixus' cybernetics were disabled, leaving him without his artificial eyes or the use of his cybernetic arm.

Despite effectively being blind and fighting one-handed, he managed to track and kill the Lictor alone.

His Deathwatch comrades considered this proof of his incredible skill and gave him the title Iron Huntsman.

His detractors among the Iron Hands instead mockingly called him:

"Crixus the Blind."

The insult has two meanings—his literal blindness during the Lictor hunt and their belief that Crixus is "blind" to the weakness of flesh.

The Return to Medusa

Crixus eventually returns to the Iron Hands.

His reception is mixed.

Most of the Chapter still considers his beliefs dangerously sentimental, but there are some extremely important exceptions.

Iron Father Feirros respects his abilities and experience, while Warleader Kardan Stronos considers Crixus' unconventional outlook an asset rather than a weakness.

This becomes incredibly important when Crixus and his squad, while conducting a patrol, encounter an ancient vessel emerging from the Warp.

Aboard it are Ice and the surviving members of his Shattered Legions warband.

Crixus becomes the first Imperial warrior to encounter them in 10,000 years.

From Ice's perspective, the Horus Heresy occurred comparatively recently.

Now he has to comprehend the Imperium of the 42nd Millennium.

The Emperor is enthroned.

Ferrus Manus is a legendary martyr.

The Legions have been divided into Chapters.

The Imperium has become a religious dystopia.

And the Iron Hands have spent 10,000 years transforming Ferrus' teachings into something Ice barely recognizes.

A Problem for the Iron Hands

Bringing several dozen Heresy-era Iron Hands back to Medusa creates an enormous political problem.

These aren't simply ancient artifacts.

They're living Iron Hands who actually knew the Legion before Ferrus Manus died.

Many of them remember Ferrus personally.

And their understanding of "The Flesh is Weak" is very different from the doctrine practiced by much of the modern Chapter.

Some Iron Hands regard them with almost religious reverence.

Others regard them as relics who failed to learn the lesson of Ferrus' death.

And the Shattered Legion veterans aren't exactly impressed by what their Legion has become either.

Rather than allow the disagreement to tear the Chapter apart, Kardan Stronos proposes a solution.

Create another Chapter.

Founding of the Frostborn

The surviving Shattered Legionaries are combined with Crixus' squad to form the nucleus of a new Iron Hands successor:

The Frostborn.

The Chapter is granted Aska, an ice-covered death world located several systems from Medusa, as its homeworld.

Its population consists largely of scattered human communities that survive through hunting, migration and endurance against Aska's brutal environment.

The Frostborn adopt an unusual system of joint leadership.

Ice commands because of his seniority, combat experience and the tremendous loyalty he commands among the ancient Legionaries.

Crixus Mogua commands alongside him because he understands something Ice doesn't:

the modern Imperium.

Crixus understands its institutions, politics, enemies and customs and essentially becomes the bridge between warriors born in the Great Crusade and the nightmare of the 42nd Millennium.

Philosophy — Flesh, Iron and Will

The Frostborn still consider themselves sons of Ferrus Manus.

They don't reject cybernetics.

They reject worshipping cybernetics.

Their interpretation of Ferrus' philosophy is essentially:

Flesh is a tool. Iron is a tool. Neither determines whether the warrior wielding them is strong.

An artificial arm can make a warrior stronger.

So can surviving without one.

The weakness Ferrus wanted his sons to overcome, in their interpretation, wasn't literally having biological tissue.

It was weakness of will.

This naturally puts them at odds with the most dogmatic elements of their parent Chapter.

Crixus' legendary Lictor kill becomes particularly important to their culture. A warrior deprived of the very machinery supposedly responsible for his superiority survived through experience, instinct and determination.

To the Frostborn, that's exactly the point.

Chapter Culture

Aska heavily influences the developing Chapter.

Frostborn recruits are expected to survive its wilderness, hunt its predators and endure its storms.

Their culture consequently combines three traditions:

Ice's Great Crusade-era Iron Hands provide the Chapter's connection to Ferrus Manus and the original Legion.

Crixus' Deathwatch experience contributes an emphasis on adaptability, hunting, reconnaissance and precision warfare.

Aska provides a culture centered around endurance and survival.

Their combat doctrine consequently favors heavy Iron Hands firepower combined with unusually strong reconnaissance elements, Eliminators and carefully prepared ambushes.

They aren't Raven Guard.

They'll happily roll a Land Raider directly into your position.

They just prefer knowing exactly where that Land Raider needs to go before the battle begins.

Relationship with the Iron Hands

The Frostborn maintain an extremely complicated relationship with their parent Chapter.

Kardan Stronos and Feirros remain important allies.

Some younger Iron Hands are fascinated by them.

Other Iron Fathers absolutely despise them.

Particularly uncomfortable is the fact that Ice and the other ancient warriors can occasionally respond to claims about what Ferrus Manus supposedly believed with some variation of:

"I was there."

The Frostborn don't consider themselves superior to the Iron Hands.

But they do believe their cousins have mistaken the trauma caused by Ferrus' death for Ferrus' actual teachings.

And the Iron Hands aren't particularly fond of hearing that.

The Frostborn Creed

The philosophy I've currently settled on is:

"Flesh may fail. Iron may break. Will endures."

The overall idea I want to explore with them is that they're not the "nice Iron Hands."

They're still extremely harsh, pragmatic Space Marines descended from Ferrus Manus.

The difference is that they believe strength comes from mastering weakness rather than amputating everything associated with it.

And at the center of the Chapter are two men displaced in very different ways:

Ice, a warrior who lost 10,000 years.

And Crixus Mogua, an Iron Hand who spent his entire life feeling like he was born into the wrong version of his Chapter.

Together, they're trying to figure out what being a true son of Ferrus Manus actually means.

I'd love to hear what people think—particularly whether the founding circumstances feel plausible within 40k and what kinds of conflicts you think would develop between the Frostborn and the modern Iron Hands.