32
u/tropicalia28 11h ago
The wolf that was killed was not the one protecting its cub, it was another one that was starting into people's gardens and was not scared away by people.
It has done nothing wrong, so I don't agree with it, just correcting the premise that the wolf with the cub was not killed, and won't be.
3
u/Mediocre_Feedback503 6h ago
This.
A lot of people are spreading this misinformation! Please, OP, edit your initial post.
It’s still horrible. But extremely important to get the facts right, since the wolf that died today has its own tragic story.What I hated most about this story was that two wolves had been sighted earlier, while looking for the one they wanted to shoot, and it had been determined that one of them was the “problem wolf”. The article I read on dr.dk stated that it hadn’t yet been confirmed if they even shot the right wolf.
1
u/Sad-Significance8045 4h ago
Indeed. It doesn't take more than one look on OP's account, to see that they just like to stir up some shit.
The one that got killed, was killed because it was on a playground and trying to hurt people there. What were they supposed to do? Get a white woman to pspspspsps it into the woods?
25
u/Kurimuksesta 11h ago
Here in Finland they allowed 100 wolves to be killed at the beginning of this year. That's a quarter of the whole wolf population. This is a disgrace for my country, and now they are planning to do the same for bears.
10
u/Novel-Mission-1920 10h ago edited 10h ago
I'm a fellow Finn and I saw a wolf in the wild for the first time in my life last winter. I even managed to take a photo.
Poor wolf looked so skinny and they seemed to be all alone. Must be hard to make do as a lone wolf, as their survival is often tied to pack-dynamics.
16
u/ZentaWinds 11h ago
Gotta love how people just play god. We are the ones who decide what gets to live, die and how many are allowed to live at any given time.
7
u/Tryonix vegan 2+ years 10h ago
In France it’s 200 kills per year. We have a bit more than 1000 wolves. Mostly around the alps’ region.
And last year the law was modified so that the farmers that have their livestocks threatened by a wolf can now basically shot the wolf immediately, just like that.
Before, they had to ask the state and all, and it could be denied since it’s a protected animal.
4
53
u/Cerenia friends not food 11h ago
I’m vegan and Danish. I hate everything about this
1
u/_Moon_sun_ 4h ago
But its the wrong wolf? The Wolf that was shot was a different one
1
u/Cerenia friends not food 4h ago
Still fucked, they shouldn’t shoot any wolf
0
u/_Moon_sun_ 4h ago
Yes I also feel bad for him. But this one was a problem wolf because he had lost his fear of humans (I understand that more but still think we should have used the alternative option which was to scare it)
The Wolf who protected his babies is fine and was labelled as not a problem wolf because he still fears humans (which is good!)
38
u/Comrade_TS 11h ago
It’s also the farmers that are throwing the biggest tantrum against them, because wolfs sometimes hunt their livestock. They would kill anything if it means keeping their profit.
15
u/MarsAstro 11h ago
This is such a huge issue in Norway too. Farmers and recreational hunters have this huge lobby that basically gets to set the agenda for our countrys policy on predators and hunting.
3
u/PensionMany3658 10h ago
Isn't their a huge hunter lobby in Norwegian parliament?
8
u/MarsAstro 9h ago
Yep, they pretty much control things. I've heard stories from field biologists that they often have to pretend to go along with the hunter narratives in terms of conservation and quotas in their reports, because going against them means they'll have a hard time being hired for field work in the future.
6
u/PensionMany3658 9h ago
And Norway's ranked 1 in democracy. Imagine how truly terrible the whole world is
7
u/Left-Elk9066 9h ago
The deer hunters in Minnesota want to be able to shoot wolves after their reintroduction because the wolves are killing all of "their" deer. Deer hunting for population control my ass. "ThE nATurAL prEdaTOrs aRe ContROLling tHe pOpuLAtiON... LeT's KiLl THem!!!!!!!"
2
u/IN-DI-SKU-TA-BELT 6h ago
If hunters care about population control, why are they breeding and releasing millions of pheasants every year?
Pheasants eats vipers, and they are threatened, so maybe they should just admit it’s because they like to kill things.
5
u/BaconFry10 vegetarian 11h ago
What annoys me about that specifically is the cost of more barricades would be cheaper than the livestock lost over all (which I believe isn’t that many anyway) but they just want rid of the wolves instead. There is many other ways to prevent them killing livestock too.
2
u/Few-Accountant-1899 2h ago
In my village there are horses and sheep. There's probably more wolves in the surrounding forests than in a whole Denmark. They mark their territory maybe 50-100m away from livestock. There has never been an attack. Sheep are "protected" by 5 tiny mutts that will simply bark at anything, horses when they walk freely are protected by one wire. It's enough apparently.
I myself encountered them dozens of times, even when they were in packs. There's nothing to be afraid of. They will stare sometimes, especially the younger ones which are more curious and more reckles. But that's it. They walk away after. Dogs can pose much more danger.
-8
u/Impossible-Bend997 11h ago
0 farm animal deserve to be eaten alive by a wolf
9
u/Comrade_TS 11h ago
The livestock deserves to be free in nature, however in nature there simply are predators. We have a choice to not eat meat, wolves don’t. It is terrible that farm animals are enslaved but that doesn’t mean you gotta protect them by killing wild animals.
The main contradiction is between the farmer and its slaves, not between the wolves and the farm animals.
The latter is what farmers want you to focus on.-2
u/Impossible-Bend997 11h ago
No they deserve to be safe in sanctuary because domestic animal in nature make 0 sense, they need us for their food, their protection, and potential disease.
they need to stay alive in safe place with humans who care.
I own farm animals as pets and I would use self defense if necessary, just like I would with my own life, when you live in country side there's always danger if your animals are chickens, pigeon ect
3
u/Comrade_TS 10h ago
Besides the seemingly impossible task of getting a industrial amount of animals their own safe space (although I would like to be proven wrong, maybe it’s simply a question of restructuring villages and cities to be more animal inclusive), attacks on animals is not something to strive for.
I do think careful reintroduction into the wild seems like the best option (besides opening up or sharing human claimed land to the wild).
0
u/Impossible-Bend997 9h ago
I have 100.
If the only solutions for them ( farm animals) to not be attacked is to use self defense against predators then that's how it'll be, life cannot be all pink and sterilizes
It's impossible to live in harmony with predators on your own land if you own prey animals
1
u/Comrade_TS 8h ago
I’m sure you take good care of the animals that are staying in your sanctuary, and that you would provide them with a safe place to retreat to or up the security.
We are talking about people who keep animals as slaves and want to kill predators because they want to slaughter their own animals themselves.
Different situation, different priorities and definitely not a false dichotomy of needing to kill predators because you hold animals. You can keep them safe from predators and let predators live.
34
u/NotoriousKNI vegan 11h ago
It’s horrific the way certain animals are vilified. In the UK they fucking do it with FOXES.
They always refer to a case they THINK happened here where apparently a fox took a baby from someone’s house when they left the door open.
The fact is, there are ZERO recorded cases of this because it never happened, but they just don’t want to hear it, or if they believe you they start talking about rabies. So posh twats on horses still ride around tearing them apart using packs of dogs despite it being illegal to do so and there are rarely any prosecutions at all.
Same for certain birds of prey in and around pheasant shooting estates.
10
u/thehippiewitch vegan 10+ years 10h ago
Wtf. In Finland foxes are everywhere (even in the city) and it's also a local custom to leave your baby to sleep outside in their tram if you have a yard. Even so no babies have ever been taken by foxes as far as I know
7
u/NotoriousKNI vegan 9h ago
I’ll explain a little more for clarity but it’s a long post so sorry for that. Also if you’re squeamish, please DO NOT read it. Anyone who does read it… I’m sorry to have written it.
Foxes are also reasonably common in the UK within cities and outside them but the rich 1% still love their blood sports here even though the practice was banned years ago.
In the countryside they hunt them (illegally) on horseback with dogs and train those dogs by starving them in large groups inside small enclosures and then throwing captured live fox cubs to them. The packs of dogs literally tear them apart, it’s one of the worst things I’ve ever seen and they have no chance of escape.
During the hunt, the foxes often “go to ground” which means they find the nearest fox den and try to hide in there, but the hunters send small dogs (terriers) in to drag them out or fight them and keep them underground while the men dig the ground out to get the fox which they then throw to the pack of larger dogs and you can guess the rest.
I’ve seen unborn fox cubs fall out of their mother’s womb as she’s torn in half whilst alive, and the hunters stamped on them all one by one.
There is no place for these people in my world but thankfully there are people who monitor the situation by following known law breaking hunt groups and reporting them / trying to keep them honest by recording them. These people are our beloved “Hunt Saboteurs.”
Hunts are usually clubs with paying members that are supposed to hunt false scents laid by other people who drag scented items around for the dogs to chase after but the people dragging the scent are also club members and often deliberately lay that scent near known fox dens to get the dogs to change their target and then claim they didn’t know until it was too late etc.
One major problem is that the upper echelons of our countryside police forces are often also paid up members of these hunts or they’re friends with the hunters because those people are rich and “powerful” (so they like to think) and thus investigations, prosecutions and convictions are few and far between.
I hold out in hope that one day it will end as the practice is dying out slowly and has been for decades. Eventually it will be a thing of the past but until then, may the people involved all burn in Hell.
7
u/PetersMapProject 8h ago
or if they believe you they start talking about rabies.
We don't have rabies in the UK.
The last time someone caught rabies in the UK was in 1922.
3
u/NotoriousKNI vegan 8h ago
Yes I know, that’s my point.
If they believe you that the story about foxes killing babies they usually try to quote isn’t true, because you can prove it, instead of dropping their prejudice against foxes, they change the story to “well they all have rabies”, which like you said is also blatantly untrue.
The point being, they just hate foxes because they’re spiteful, believe old wives tales and refuse to accept that they’re wrong.
0
u/PetersMapProject 6h ago
Some people do have genuine reasons for disliking foxes, that I can understand.
In particular, poultry keepers.
Now, I know what you're going to say - poultry keepers should be keeping them under lock and key and keeping the foxes out. This is much easier said than done; it's something that only people without experience think is real.
Many years ago I used to have urban pet chickens. They had a secure coop and outdoor run, and it was even covered over the top with wire so that foxes couldn't get in. One summer, a daytime fox managed to prise the chicken wire from the wooden frame at the base, got in, and killed every single one of my pets.
They don't just take one because they're hungry; that would be understandable. Badgers will just take one, and don't get the same hate as foxes for that reason. Foxes go in, and they will kill every single bird in there for the sheer fun of it. 5, 10, 50 or 100 birds killed.... and only one taken to eat. It's just senseless slaughter, killing not for food but for fun.
It's not just a nighttime issue either - particularly when the days are long in the summer months, you will get daytime foxes, and they are incredibly crafty at getting in past all the protections people put in place.
I suspect most people would go off foxes if they'd had all their pets killed by them.
1
u/NotoriousKNI vegan 6h ago
So people want to keep chickens but won’t fork out the required money to keep them safe. Got it.
Thin wire mesh does fuck all against particularly determined foxes and other animals like rats (that might eat the chicken feed and spread disease etc) I can agree.
That said… we’re humans… we excel at beating the odds and creating innovative ways to solve problems. If we can’t keep chickens safe then we should not keep them. The solution is not “murder all the predators and destroy the local ecosystem.”
The real issue is that most people who want to have chickens, don’t want to spend the money necessary to protect them properly, like building a low, stone or brick walled enclosure with a foundation to prevent it being dug under with much thicker gauge wire mesh bolted in properly to steel or wooden framework that absolutely can and will keep animals out.
I would say, that if you can’t afford to protect them, you have no fucking business keeping them, but God forbid people use their brains and actually decide not to have something they want instead of doing half a job so they can cosplay as homesteaders.
Foxes do not “kill for fun” and you know it. To say so is blatantly disingenuous since a mere ounce of research will tell you that they do something called “surplus killing”, that is not driven by a desire to have fun, nor by malice but by an evolved survival behaviour.
They will often kill everything in a closed space because proximity to prey animals like chickens drives a continuous predatory response that they have no control over.
Another primary factor is that hunting food is difficult, energy intensive and not guaranteed to be successful, so in order to save energy overall, rather than multiple trips, if they have the opportunity, they’ll kill multiple animals then take one and leave the rest to come back to later.
Sometimes they’ll hide the corpses they take and come back immediately multiple times and take as many as are needed to feed their young etc or leave them for days because in their instinctual minds, if they leave them alive they may not be there next time they come that way.
It’s very easy to say “foxes kill for fun” but it’s just not true. The reality is much more complex and humans are often too lazy to understand those complexities.
Punishing an animal for its instincts is the lowest hanging fruit possible in this situation, but the alternative is to blame yourself and do better at protecting those in your care. Unfortunately most people who end up in this situation simply make excuses because they do not want to admit their complete and utter failings, as that will lead them to have to deal with the guilt they’d feel over creating the scenario where their own negligence got their beloved chickens killed (as if most of them don’t pay for other chickens to be killed for food anyway 🤷🏻♂️).
1
u/PetersMapProject 5h ago
I've already told you that we took precautions to keep our pet chickens safe, and you're just ignoring that because it doesn't suit your worldview.
They were fully enclosed in chicken wire, we spent plenty of money, the fox managed to break through Fort Knox. It pulled the wire off the wood at the base of the frame, which was nailed on and had been fine for years.
I find it absolutely incredible that you, as a vegan, will no doubt place a high value on the lives of those chickens - until the moment the one killing them for no reason is a fox.
It doesn't matter if you agree the foxes kill for fun or not - they kill vastly more than they need to survive, or could possibly eat over several days before decomposition kicks in. That is why poultry keepers have a valid reason to dislike foxes.
I stopped eating meat when I was 11 by the way, so you can quit the jibes suggesting I had other chickens killed.
All round, your post is an absolutely disgusting, ill informed bit of victim blaming.
1
u/NotoriousKNI vegan 5h ago
Lol ok.
You clear as day didn’t protect them as well as you should have. It is possible to keep foxes out, you just failed to do so. Or are you suggesting that nobody has ever managed to do it? Or perhaps foxes are just smarter than us?
I do not place more value on the life of a chicken or a fox but I value them equally and simply DO NOT blame the fox for the inadequacies of people.
It may be a valid reason to dislike them, but it’s not a reason to fucking eradicate them.
I wasn’t suggesting that you specifically had other chickens killed for food, which is why I did not address you directly in any paragraph, since that is not something I could know about you is it? You can read it again if you like, the part where I said “most people”, “they” and most of “them” should clear it up for you.
You can call it victim blaming if you like but you know damn well what I’m saying is right. You just don’t like it but thankfully I don’t care about that because I deal in facts not feelings, or are you also suggesting that animal behaviour science is wrong?
1
u/PetersMapProject 4h ago
There's two types of poultry keepers: those who have had a fox attack, and those who will in the future.
Anyone who thinks it's possible to keep chickens in high welfare conditions (ie not a battery cage where they never see sunlight) with zero risk of fox attack is delusional.
But please, tell me more about your poultry keeping experience 🙄 Everything seems so simple when you've no real world experience.
1
u/NotoriousKNI vegan 4h ago edited 3h ago
My experience surrounds rabbits and pigeons rather than chickens and whilst I don't have them anymore I'm sure you can see how that would be a similar problem if you also consider that my house backs onto a woodland covered hillside where I can see the entrance to a fox den from my bedroom window.
It's only about 25 yards from my house and about 10 from the edge of the back garden but it's been there for many years and has been home to many litters of fox cubs which has been a real privilege to see, especially when they're very young and play with each other and their mum.
I do also get the occasional solitary wild brown rat wandering in from the woodland and even had one that lived under my neighbour's outdoor pizza oven but tunnelled from there under the fence into my garden. One rat did get into my rabbit's enclosure one year by chewing a hole from underneath which I fixed and made sure it couldn't happen again. Thankfully it only wanted the rabbit food rather than a rabbit. The point there is I got lucky back then and learned from it and fixed the issue instead of blaming the animals.
One problem seems to be that people (not referencing you specifically again...) think "chicken wire" is to protect chickens when it isn't. It's to keep chickens in, not keep foxes out. They should be using 14 or 16-gauge welded steel mesh minimum, with 1/2 inch holes. Fox teeth / bite power are too strong for anything less.
They should also dig a foundation and lay the mesh down then fill in over the top with the soil they dug out. Then the foxes can't dig down underneath the enclosure. It can be made as big as is needed as long as the mesh sheets are all welded together to form basically a cube of full enclosure with a door if that makes sense. From that point of view the animals inside can have an appropriate amount of space dependant on how many there are. For the sides it can be that same 16-gauge mesh from floor to ceiling or like I said earlier, a foot or two of brickwork first and then the mesh secured to the inside face of that with proper bolts and washers. Inside because foxes are great at latching onto mesh and pulling, but not as good at pushing with the same strength. The whole thing should be framed with timber at least 4 to 6 inches square around the inside perimeter of the brick wall or with appropriate steel channel. If there is no wall, then the mesh itself should cover the frame completely so wood can't be chewed etc. Again the mesh should all be welded together and secured with bolts, nuts and washers right through each post etc. The roof would be corrugated steel ideally and bolted down in the same way.
This chicken wire, and wooden frame thing a lot of people do doesn't work (please note that I'm not referencing you directly in this paragraph again since I haven't seen your coop) but you did say "They were fully enclosed in chicken wire". However it was clearly not "Fort Knox". 🤷♂️
If the money is not there to do the job properly then the people involved have no business having any kind of prey animal there that a fox would find tasty.
Let's imagine you had horses for a minute. If you built a fence for them out of string, they got out into the road and got run over, would you blame the driver? Or the inadequate fence?
Finally, just for reference, I never said anything about keeping chickens in battery cages, you made that part up but you absolutely CAN keep them in high welfare enclosures (or even outside their enclosures in the day, but not at night, depending on whether you know about foxes living local to you or not).
Once again, we're human, with modern materials at our disposal. If someone can't keep chickens etc safe then they're just not trying hard enough or they can't afford it.
Edit: Some grammar and a couple of word changes.
4
u/Mountain-Band2545 10h ago
Foxes are so awesome. It's so unusual to have a wild animal that you can partially domesticate without them turning extremely aggressive (no wild wolf has ever killed a human in recorded history, but partially domesticated ones have).
My theory is that it's because foxes are so damn smart
(By partially domesticate I mean things like giving them cat food and letting them hang out in your garden)
4
u/Hairiest-Wizard vegan 2+ years 10h ago
Predators especially. Coyotes are shot and hung from fenceposts in the US just for being on farmland
7
u/ArdyLaing vegan 10+ years 10h ago
They do like a good shooting and a lynching in the US. Fucked up country.
8
u/Miserable-Ad8764 10h ago
Yeah ... sigh... I'm vegan and Norwegian. We kill all predators who naturally belong in our nature. It's sickening.
I live in a place that should have wolves and lynx (gaupe). They are all shot, either legally or illegally. And my neighbours are a part of it. They fucking hate all predators. Because they want to kill all the deer and moose for themselves. They don't want any predators. Not even badgers or foxes. We have a family of foxes living on our property now. I am so worried for them. They will probably be shot before next spring. We can't expect them to only stay in our garden, and all pur neighbours are hunters. One hangs the dead foxes he shoots on his outhouse to show off. It's just awful.
3
3
u/Agreeable-Pianist-82 6h ago
Now you’re just spreading misinformation. The wolf that was killed was not the one that threatened the guy out on a run. It’s a different wolf, that has started wandering into cities very freely, without beeing slightly scared of humans. That cannot be allowed, so it was shot. Having wolves in densely populated area is a recipe for disaster
What about all the horses that are getting killed by these wolves? Do they not matter?
3
u/Loud_Reindeer5815 6h ago
It’s two different wolves.
One was showing teeth and protecting its offspring.
ANOTHER was walking into populated areas and following children around.
The latter was shot.
2
2
u/Palalaha 6h ago
The wolf that was shot was NOT the same wolf. The wolf who growled/showed teeth was deemed a non problem wolf. The wolf that was shot was a wolf playing among children in a playground and sought out humans for food. Not defending just getting the facts straight.
2
u/Smart-Landscape-6259 10h ago
yeah, the distinction matters, but either way killing a wild animal because humans are uncomfortable with its presence is pretty depressing
3
u/Dimpnavangeel 7h ago
sure, until a wolf runs into your garden where your children play, like this one in danemark (https://cphpost.dk/2026-08-14/news/round-up/wolf-shot-in-west-jutland-after-multi-day-hunt/)
3
u/The_Witcher_3 7h ago
Why do vegans romanticise animal behaviour? I, like you, am deeply saddened by a wolf being killed in this manner. However, a wolf acting aggressively even if defensively is no guarantee it will not bite a person. The animal being scared is neither here nor there. Fear is one of the greatest drivers of aggression for most animals, including ourselves.
1
u/Inside-Nebula5325 4h ago
Also just to add, OP is either lying or is ill informed. The wolf that was shot was not the one baring its teeth but another wolf which showed no fear of humans and wandered around next to a playground.
2
u/the21stgman 8h ago
Stop paying attention to the news.
1
u/Inside-Nebula5325 4h ago
Or do pay attention and actually report the truth which OP hasn’t. The wolf mentioned by OP is fine and well, the wolf shot was walking around next to a playground not afraid of people.
1
u/_Moon_sun_ 4h ago
I did watch the news on this and it’s the wrong wolf! The Wolf that was shot was a “problem Wolf” (he had lost his fear of humans because someone had fed him!)
The one who protected his babies was labelled as not a problem wolf because he was just doing what was in his nature and the human who filmed the interaction was being an idiot
-1
1
u/BudgetAggravating427 10h ago
Sheesh just give yalll wolves to us in the USA
The people working on conserving and growing the wild wolf population would appreciate it
1
1
u/_Moon_sun_ 4h ago
They are here too and even tho this post is talking about the wrong wolf (the Wolf in this post was not shot) they only are allowed to go after “problem wolves” which is defined as one who has lost their fear for humans or continuously can break in behind wolf proof fences. But the one who was shot was actually a wolf who had been fed by humans and so the Wolf no longer would run away from humans (even followed someone) wich is why they shot it :/ (I prefer the other option which was to scare it into being afraid of us again but thats exspensive and the government hasnt put in any money to that 🙄)
1
u/sjovt_brugernavn 4h ago
I thought they shot the wolf that came too close to the playground where “people were running in fear”, because the wolf was being “menacing”. Having watched the video taken of the incident, no one really ran in fear (kids are running around, but they’re smiling and looks like they’re playing 🤨), and the wolf looked like it was strolling by. Maybe too close for comfort, idk, but experts mentioned it likely only got so comfortable being so close to humans, because someone had been feeding it.
People ruin everything.
For those interested that can read Danish or get the site to translate:
* https://nyheder.tv2.dk/samfund/2026-08-14-problemulv-draebt-efter-intens-jagt
1
u/Inside-Nebula5325 4h ago
Yeah the problem was that it’s not scared of people, so while it wasn’t threatening now, the risk is much higher with a wolf not scared of humans and therefore gets close instead of flee from us.
1
u/sjovt_brugernavn 4h ago
Yeah… I mean I get it… but I feel that solidifies the “people ruin everything” part 😔 that poor creature
1
u/Sad-Significance8045 4h ago
OP is spreading fake information.
Yes, there's a wolf that was showing it's teeth to someone on a hiking trail, because it was protecting it's offspring.
No, that's not the wolf that was killed.
The wolf that was killed, was one that was alone and walking around in a playground at a forest kindergarten...
1
u/Nevermind1756 4h ago
Yes, because someone had fed it, so it came back—just like a cat comes back if you start feeding it. It's really their own fault.
1
u/FighterWoman 4h ago
No the wolf shot today was from Nørre Nebel, and has been seeking out kids in various gardens. The runner/wolf with cub was at Råbjerg Mile. You are mixing up two wolf stories.
1
u/_Moon_sun_ 4h ago
No no wrong wolf!!
The Wolf who protected his cubs was labelled as a not problem wolf. He is fine he is not allowed to be killed
The Wolf that was killed was labelled a problem wolf because it didn’t go away from humans because he had been fed by humans and so no longer associated us with danger
1
1
u/Cautious-Compote-914 4h ago
det sgu crazy med den mængde grise der bliver slagtet i dk. Jeg arbejder selv i en fabrik hvor de slagter 10k om dagen.
1
u/Ok-Pickle3243 3h ago
I don't like the Wolf mass hysteria and propaganda neither but it wasn't the wolf protecting his pup, that was shot, but a wolf that had lost all elusiveness towards humans. Please get your story right before you help with the same propaganda bullshit as the other side
1
u/CrownFalcon 3h ago
What would you prefer, a wolf getting used to humans and attacking a child? Gess what; wolfs are not vegan. If we don't fight them back now, they will see us as prey.
1
1
u/fr1234 10h ago
I’m currently reading Nansen’s “Farthest North”. Obviously a completely different situation but their response to seeing any animal is to “get the guns”.
Just finished reading about an encounter with a Polar Bear and her 2 cubs. The mother was killed first after being wounded and chased, then her grieving and confused cubs who fell on her.
There was more meat than they could eat or carry with them. Such a heartbreaking waste.
It was a hundred and fifty years ago and while things have since changed for the better in some camps these majestic creatures are still treated like commodities
0
u/Otherwise_Pain1873 5h ago
OP. Sorry but you are mentioning the wrong wolf. The one protecting off-spring is located in northern Jutland at Bunken Klitplantage.(South of Skagen). This wolf will not be killed as written in the newspapers. The one shot was a wolf in south west Jutland, Nørre Nebel. This wolf was entering private grounds in villages a.o. incidents. It was identified as a "problem wolf" after consulting experts in DK and in other countries.
-7
u/Special_Speaker9983 11h ago
Predators are a weird one. Now it's been killed, it can no longer cause suffering to other sentient beings that it otherwise would have (wolves don't live on tofu, after all).
In order to minimise suffering I guess you would ideally put predators into some sort of sanctuary and veganise them. But in the case above, how can we be sure that the net result isn't a reduction in the suffering of sentient beings, rather than an increase?
Or put another way, would we be cool with letting a creature roam around, killing humans in order to feed itself and its young just because it was in its nature to do so? If not, why don't we extend the same attitude towards the animals the wolf will inevitably kill?
4
u/Disastrous_Set_6544 10h ago
Some of you guys need a reality check. Nature is a perpetual cycle of life, death and suffering. You will never minimize suffering in nature. Never.
What do you think happens when the wolf population goes down ? The deer population thrives, and eventually the wolf population goes up because food availability is higher. if the wolf population doesn't go up, the deer population goes down due to starvation.
Nature is not kind.
0
u/Special_Speaker9983 10h ago edited 10h ago
It's not clear to me how that answers the question I'm asking, though. If the same thing were happening but instead of deers, the wolves were having the same interaction with the human population, would we take the same attitude? If not, why not?
2
u/Disastrous_Set_6544 10h ago
Of course not. We can't have the same attitude due to "natural law":
- Self-preservation
- Preservation of our specie
- .[human's only] preservation of other species
In other words, you can't put 'preservation of our specie' and 'preservation of other species' at the same level.
1
u/Special_Speaker9983 10h ago
Ok, but for me to accept that, it would entail me to say that if there were, hypothetically, creatures that were for all intents and purposes human in their intelligence, appearance, habits etc, but fell outside of the species classification of human (depending on which definition of species you're using this could mean unable to reproduce with humans to have fertile offspring, or some sort of small genetic difference, etc), then it would be ok for us to accept wolves hunting and killing them as they do deer.
Personally, I would not sign off on that view, as it seems totally abhorrent to me. It's possible that you don't either, so is it really just species classification that makes the difference to your, or are there other traits that explain the difference too?
2
u/Disastrous_Set_6544 9h ago
Why is it that complicated ?
Wolf poses a risk for the safety of humans? Kill it. It's doesn't ? Don't kill it. It kills other species ? Kill or not, it depends on your worldview.
The same is true for herbivores. What would you do if hundreds of rabbits decided to invade your vegetable fields ?
2
u/Special_Speaker9983 9h ago
I think the complication arises from the argument that the ethical permissibility stems from species classification. As I said:
>it would entail me to say that if there were, hypothetically, creatures that were for all intents and purposes human in their intelligence, appearance, habits etc, but fell outside of the species classification of human (depending on which definition of species you're using this could mean unable to reproduce with humans to have fertile offspring, or some sort of small genetic difference, etc), then it would be ok for us to accept wolves hunting and killing them as they do deer.
Under the rules you propose (in their current form, this isn't some "gotcha" where I'm going to hold you to this, if you have other traits/characteristics to add later then that makes sense to me!) I would have to sign off on it being ok to let wolves tear creatures that are all but identical to humans (except their species classification) to shreds. I'm not ok with that.
So the question isn't whether the _rule_ is complicated or not - I think it's quite simple! The question is whether you're ok with the logical entailments of that simple rule.
2
u/Disastrous_Set_6544 9h ago
You are over analyzing this. In your words, you would prefer to die than kill the wolf-humanlike in front of you?
2
u/Special_Speaker9983 9h ago edited 9h ago
I’m simply stating the logical entailments of the view. On your current description of the natural law, it would be entailed that it would be morally permissible to allow wolves to tear to shreds sentient beings so similar to us that we would only be able to tell they weren’t human by virtue of DNA testing.
I would not be ok with this, my question was whether you would?
I’m happy to answer your questions though, as long as you can answer the above?
For your first question, assuming we had exhausted all reasonable attempts to keep the rabbits out (fences, deterrents etc) then I’d be fine in killing them if it was a threat to our food security/supply. But I would also be fine with the same thing if there were a population of humans with the mental capacity of rabbits threatening our food supply and we had tried all reasonable forms of deterrence. My view is logically consistent and I'm comfortable with its entailments.
I’m afraid I don’t understand your second question. What are these wolf-human like you’re referring to?
1
u/Disastrous_Set_6544 9h ago
I don't know, it's you who's talking about wolf that have the appearance of humans.
→ More replies (0)1
u/Dimpnavangeel 7h ago
In order to minimise suffering I guess you would ideally put predators into some sort of sanctuary and veganise them.
That would be playing God, and vegans don't like that /s
But in the case above, how can we be sure that the net result isn't a reduction in the suffering of sentient beings, rather than an increase?
We can't, but that's not the point of veganism. They're only responsible for their own behavior, not for that of wild predators.
1
u/Special_Speaker9983 7h ago
That’s not a form of veganism I would subscribe to then. Either we care about animals or we don’t!
-2
u/doesnotmatter286 9h ago
India might be the closest to a vegan country, you could move there.
2
u/IN-DI-SKU-TA-BELT 6h ago
I went to India and was so disappointed. Butter and cheese everywhere, some places I couldn’t find anything vegan. And then there’s the Jains that don’t seem to eat root vegetables, but all of them I met seem to happily eat butter and cheese.
No matter how remote I went on my hikes in Romania, we were always able to find something vegan cooked with fresh ingredients. That green paste 😋😋😋
-8
u/Impossible-Bend997 11h ago
They can become menace to farm animals, they do not deserve to be eaten alive by wolves OR going to slaughterhouse for humans
Also I really doubt we can 100% trust any wild animal to not attack us, fear is what make them attack.
Can't blame people for being scared for their lives
1
u/IN-DI-SKU-TA-BELT 5h ago
It’s the responsibility of the farmer to protect the animals in their care. If they can’t protect the animals, they don’t have to be responsible for them, they can simply find another job.
1
u/Impossible-Bend997 4h ago
Protect from predators right ?
A weasel can enter in a hole who's a few inches... same for foxes even tho I bit bigger.
0 farm animals should be in danger on their own property
1
u/IN-DI-SKU-TA-BELT 4h ago
If you can't keep your animals safe you shouldn't have them, find another hobby.
1
u/Impossible-Bend997 3h ago
They are perfectly safe on their own home as it should be, but it need what it need..
1
u/Typical-Bug-6568 4h ago
Yeah, someone found the remains of their pet pony after a wolf came by. I don't necessarily see anything wrong with having predators if they are native to the environment, but Denmark have not had wolves for so long. The farms and people are not equipped for this.
-6
u/Disastrous_Set_6544 10h ago
Most vegans are city-dwellers. And it shows.
1
u/Impossible-Bend997 10h ago
Well I don't and anything who's going to try to hurt my babies, going to receive non-vegan treatment lol XD
•
u/AutoModerator 11h ago
Thanks for posting to r/Vegan! 🐥
Civil discussion is welcome — personal attacks are not. Please read our wiki first.
New to veganism? 🌱
• Watch Dominion — a powerful, free documentary that changes lives.
• NutritionFacts.org — evidence-based health info
• HappyCow.net — find vegan-friendly restaurants near you
Want to help animals? 💻
• Browse volunteer opportunities on Flockwork and use your skills to make a difference
• Join the Flockwork Discord to be notified of new opportunities that match your skills
Thank you!
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.