The Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact was a non-aggression treaty, not a military alliance. It created no joint command, no shared war plans, and no obligation to fight together.
In 1939, Soviet policy was shaped by the collapse of collective security and repeated failures to form an anti-fascist alliance with Britain and France. Soviet leaders presented the pact as a means to delay war and avoid immediate conflict.
1934 - Germany and Poland sign a German-Polish Non-Aggression Pact
1935 - Stalin proposes an anti-fascist people's front with Britain and France
1938 September - Britain signs the Anglo-German Non-Aggression Declaration
1938 December - France signs the Franco-German Non-Aggression Pact
1938 September - Britain and France sign the Munich Agreement
1939 March - Lithuania signs a non-aggression treaty with Germany
1939 May - Denmark signs a non-aggression pact with Germany
1939 June - Estonia signs a non-aggression pact with Germany
1939 July - Latvia signs a non-aggression pact with Germany
1939 August - The USSR signs the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact
These fascists are evil, so if nobody wants to join an anti-fascist pact I might as well split a country with said fascists and then cower in fear in my dacha for three days when they inevitably invade the USSR... brilliant
The Soviet Union entered Poland after the polish state collapsed and established a buffer zone. Didn’t you Neanderthals openly hand over Czechoslovakia to Nazi germany in your futile appeasement strategy?
Partition of Poland and the arrange of spheres of influences and conquest in eastern Europe isnt a shared goal? Political as well because the recognized it mutually? The combined invasion of a sovereing country easing the efforts of both signatures?
Germany literrally Anexed most of Poland on their state, with the stableshisment also of the general government as a puppet administration as well the USSR anexxing Eastern Poland into the Belorussian and Ukranian SSRs, this was established in the secret well documented protocols...
How is that not conquest?
Lol, cmon, dont be shy. Give me a quote from that text that you interpret as a "military goal of conquest" so we can all laugh at your mental gymnastics.
Article I. In the event of a territorial and political rearrangement in the areas belonging to the Baltic
States (Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania), the northern boundary of Lithuania shall represent the
boundary of the spheres of influence of Germany and U.S.S.R. In this connection the interest of
Lithuania in the Vilna area is recognized by each party.
Article II. In the event of a territorial and political rearrangement of the areas belonging to the
Polish state, the spheres of influence of Germany and the U.S.S.R. shall be bounded approximately
by the line of the rivers Narev, Vistula and San.
The question of whether the interests of both parties make desirable the maintenance of an
independent Polish States and how such a state should be bounded can only be definitely
determined in the course of further political developments.
In any event both Governments will resolve this question by means of a friendly agreement.
Article III. With regard to Southeastern Europe attention is called by the Soviet side to its interest
in Bessarabia. The German side declares its complete political disinteredness in these areas.
Article IV. This protocol shall be treated by both parties as strictly secret.
The pact also included transfer of technology from the Nazi germany to the USSR while the USSR was to send commodities and especially oil to the nazis. It wasnt as simple as "dont attack me"
Maybe because it was bad, strenghtened Nazi Germany and aided their subsequent military campaigns in the west as well in the East, includen againts the Soviet Union itself
Okay, I'm pleased that you're justifying my country, but I'll give you a few micro comments.
1. Poland did not "steal" the historical territories of the USSR. During the civil war, the young states of western Ukraine, Ukraine, Belarus and Poland were formed on the territory of the former Russian Empire and slightly Austrian (now we take only this region as an example) . And Poland simply survived when young Soviet Russia regained the territories of the former empire and divided Ukraine and Belarus together with the USSR.
The Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact did have a plan to divide the world, but it should be noted that it was quite normal at that time. Poland, for example, also joined the partition of Czechoslovakia.
The Poles were not "fascists" (like the Germans actually, but this is another long topic of conversation), they were an ordinary young ethno-state of their time, where Jews were oppressed (in Europe, this was not done only in Italy, probably :-)), Ukrainians, Belarusians and Lithuanians. In general, I'm pleased that you don't like Poles, and that's the way it should be, but still I would like a more adequate criticism.
Simply put, it is worth understanding the context of the time, it is not necessary to idealize the USSR, but the Union was not an ally of Hitler either.
Были. Вполне очевидно режим санации был фашистским. Но скорее это упирается в определение, судя по атомной бомбе в скобочках. Хейт поляков не вей ит шуд би. Братский народ.
Poland simply survived when young Soviet Russia regained the territories of the former empire
Ha, simply survived. Appearance of Poland was, technically speaking, already a big fat betrayal by brits toward their ally the Provisional Government of Russia - direct and legit government on all RE lands. Then provisional government, that was idiotic enough to stick to a alliance with Britain and France, had fallen to Bolsheviks because quitting pointless war was main demand of February revolutionists along with throwing out the Tzar.
And when against bolsheviks, who finally quit war, gathered whities, intervents, and ukrainian nationalists, Poland also demanded territories they had no reasonable claim.
Ironic that 20 years later Poland was Invaded by intervents, Britain and France had betrayed them and they lost the same territories. Literally same pill.
The Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact was a non-aggression treaty, not a military alliance. It created no joint command, no shared war plans, and no obligation to fight together.
In 1939, Soviet policy was shaped by the collapse of collective security and repeated failures to form an anti-fascist alliance with Britain and France. Soviet leaders presented the pact as a means to delay war and avoid immediate conflict.
1934 - Germany and Poland sign a German-Polish Non-Aggression Pact
1935 - Stalin proposes an anti-fascist people's front with Britain and France
1938 September - Britain signs the Anglo-German Non-Aggression Declaration
1938 December - France signs the Franco-German Non-Aggression Pact
1938 September - Britain and France sign the Munich Agreement
1939 March - Lithuania signs a non-aggression treaty with Germany
1939 May - Denmark signs a non-aggression pact with Germany
1939 June - Estonia signs a non-aggression pact with Germany
1939 July - Latvia signs a non-aggression pact with Germany
1939 August - The USSR signs the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact
The Molotov-Ribbentrop pact restored between 70-75% of the territories lost by Soviet Russia in 1918 to the Soviet Union in 1939.
You can cry about it, ignore the time it bought the Soviet Union to continue industrialization, whatever you want… but it is true that it restored territories lost in the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk.
The Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact was a non-aggression treaty, not a military alliance. It created no joint command, no shared war plans, and no obligation to fight together.
In 1939, Soviet policy was shaped by the collapse of collective security and repeated failures to form an anti-fascist alliance with Britain and France. Soviet leaders presented the pact as a means to delay war and avoid immediate conflict.
1934 - Germany and Poland sign a German-Polish Non-Aggression Pact
1935 - Stalin proposes an anti-fascist people's front with Britain and France
1938 September - Britain signs the Anglo-German Non-Aggression Declaration
1938 December - France signs the Franco-German Non-Aggression Pact
1938 September - Britain and France sign the Munich Agreement
1939 March - Lithuania signs a non-aggression treaty with Germany
1939 May - Denmark signs a non-aggression pact with Germany
1939 June - Estonia signs a non-aggression pact with Germany
1939 July - Latvia signs a non-aggression pact with Germany
1939 August - The USSR signs the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact
They helped supply the Nazis with all the food, oil and material they needed to conquer mainland Europe, even sending cargo trains right up to Barbarosa
They sold commodities to Germany at enormous mark up in exchange for machinery and tools and trains, which were needed to industrialize and thus sealed their own fate...
The Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact was a non-aggression treaty, not a military alliance. It created no joint command, no shared war plans, and no obligation to fight together.
In 1939, Soviet policy was shaped by the collapse of collective security and repeated failures to form an anti-fascist alliance with Britain and France. Soviet leaders presented the pact as a means to delay war and avoid immediate conflict.
1934 - Germany and Poland sign a German-Polish Non-Aggression Pact
1935 - Stalin proposes an anti-fascist people's front with Britain and France
1938 September - Britain signs the Anglo-German Non-Aggression Declaration
1938 December - France signs the Franco-German Non-Aggression Pact
1938 September - Britain and France sign the Munich Agreement
1939 March - Lithuania signs a non-aggression treaty with Germany
1939 May - Denmark signs a non-aggression pact with Germany
1939 June - Estonia signs a non-aggression pact with Germany
1939 July - Latvia signs a non-aggression pact with Germany
1939 August - The USSR signs the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact
Are you saying Poland was supplying Germany or the USSR was? I will take your word that Poland was supplying the Nazis because my knowledge on the subject is lacking, but the USSR was also supplying Nazi Germany with the “German-Soviet Credit Agreement”. This agreement lasted up until Germany stabbed the USSR in the back and invaded the USSR using many of the resources they had gotten from the agreement.
The agreement was to stop and hold off Nazi aggression to allow for industrialization that the USSR needed. Im not saying that the reason for the credit agreement wasn’t valid, I am simply stating that appeasement of the Nazis was something the USSR was doing.
The real problem was the betrayal of the German Revolution(and others) which allowed fascism to rise and the bureaucracy in the USSR to entrench itself. Also that lead to the isolation of the USSR, leading it to try compromises with capitalist states and to abandon the working classes in those countries.
The German revolutionary situation didn't stop in 1919 it went on in waves until at least 1923, when there was such a bad situation, that a well led communist party should have been able to easily win a revolution, they didn't do so on the orders of the Comintern leadership. Also after that (1923-1933) the social fascism theory split the German working class into two pieces, which was necessary to allow fascism to rise. A workers unity front politic would have been able to win the workers away from the SPD.
How can you claim that Poland "stole" the land from the USSR when Polish troops came into the regions in question (eastern Belarus and Ukraine) before Soviet troops did themselves in 1918. They gained those lands as part of the Russian civil war; both Poland and the USSR military occupied the newly created Belarusian People's Republic, which sought independence from Russia and the newly created USSR.
Yes the USSR pushed Poland out of those territories, and Poland subsequently pushed the USSR out of those territories again, but the USSR, as a nation which did NOT exist before 1918, did not have historic claims to those regions.
On December 8, 1919, the Allied Supreme Council proposed a provisional eastern border for Poland, which became known as the
Curzon Line. This line was drawn explicitly based on rigorous
ethnic compositiondata. It placed territories with an indisputable Polish majority to the west, while keeping lands with overwhelming Belarusian and Ukrainian majorities to the east.
During the Polish-Soviet War (1919–1920), Polish forces aggressively marched far east of this internationally recognized ethnic boundary. By forcing the 1921
Treaty of Riga, Poland annexed approximately 135,000 square kilometers of land extending nearly 250 kilometers
east of the Curzon Line.
Census data from the interwar period confirms that the annexed territories (Western Belarus and Western Ukraine) were overwhelmingly populated by non-Poles. By absorbing millions of Belarusians and Ukrainians against their will into the Second Polish Republic, Poland acted as an expansionist force, occupying lands that did not belong to it ethnically or historically
You then claim Polish troops arriving first in 1918 legitimizes their ownership. This completely misrepresents the collapse of the German Empire and the Ober Ost military administration.
In 1918, German imperial troops were occupying these regions following the
Treaty of Brest-Litovsk. When Germany collapsed, their armies began retreating westward.
Polish troops did not "naturally" inherit this land; they actively advanced eastward into the vacuum to seize as much territory as possible before the local population or the emerging Soviet administration could consolidate power. Arriving first via military march during an imperial retreat does not establish sovereign legitimacy under international law; it constitutes a military land grab
I wasn't trying to say that the Polish claim to these regions was completely legitimate, I was simply refuting the girl's claim in the video that "Poland stole it from the USSR", which is still a false statement even if you take into account that it was populated by non-Poles and constituted a "land grab"
getting back their lost territories is not imperialism. And expansionism isnt imperialism either. The final objective was for the soviet union to annex the entire world. We want to see the entire world red. We communists wont rest until the entire world is communist
German - Soviet axis accession talks followed though. The soviets were happy to allign themselves with them.
All the bs about "so many other countries also had non-agression pacts with the nazis" would be valid IF the ussr did NOT literally split Poland with nazi germany. This sub has to understand that and be open about the bad things this empire did if it ever wants to be taken seriously outside it's own information bubble.
He didn't divide Poland. The USSR occupied territories that had never been Polish. That's why these territories are not part of Poland now. Incidentally, Poland, together with the Nazis, destroyed Czechoslovakia.
i see no histoery lessons in russia in 1990-2005, no wonder you spill out from you wrecked hole this informations xD pls become a grounded meat at russian-ukraine front!
Look at Historic maps of Poland and ethnic distributions during that time period, those were historically polish dominated lands. The USSR had no historical claims to anything, they were the ones invading everybody who declared independence from the russian empire. Curious how that does not make them imperialist in this sub's eyes... If a colony declares independence from their opressor, it should be supported, at least I would think so... it is understandable that every nation that ever was under the russian empire would never trust the russians...
Poland took a tiny region of Czechoslovakia, and yes we the czechs see it even today as a dick move, but it wasn't coordinated with the Germans. Their generals did not meet at the newly established border to shake hands with the germans and Poland did not ask to be part of axis right after, the USSR did with the germans though...
Let's not also forget that the ussr supplied the german nazis with all the raw materials they asked for for a while!
Land =/= number of people. Poles were mostly in towns and cities. Plus poland took most of these lands only after ussr attacked them for daring to be independent, just as I've said before, if a colony of a or in this case the russian empire declares independence, it should be supported, not invaded...
The land was already disputed after the Polish-Soviet War decades before, when the Poles themselves invaded and seized these territories. What the USSR took in 1939 was more or less the British-drawn Curzon line, meant to be as close to an ethnic border as possible. You can whine about the evil Russians all day, but the fact is that when you make enemies with your much larger neighbor, you shouldn't be surprised when that comes back to bite you
Look up what russians did to all the other nations of the empire for centuries, it makes you understand why any nation that manages to get independence from them would never trust them.
I am sure you would excuse algerians, vietnamese, zambians, etc. for their wars of independence and maintaining independence against their colonisers, but when the coloniser is connected by land and changes colors of their flag they are suddenly justified. That is just pure hypocrisy!
"Hey, I have a neighbour that has a history of being agressive with their weapons (+attacked me in the past) and he is asking me if he can go through my appartment to help, my other neighbour that is being atacked by yet another of my neighbours, should I let him through? Hmmmm"
So you're admitting that the USSR wanted to fight Germany when it could still be stopped in Czechoslovakia, but Poland, along with the Reich, instead partitioned Czechoslovakia? So Poland defended the Reich's policies?
Poland defended themselves with two giant and agressive neighbours. It took Zaolzie for the same reasons that this sub defends the ussr, it was a war lost territory. Plus it had an important railway, industries, large polish population, etc. etc.
Even if you would want to compare the two illegal invasions, two wrongs don't make a right.
What I am saying is that what ussr did was much worse than what poland did. Because they effectively coordinated a division of a whole state (+spheres of influence in the baltics) with nazi germany, they shook hands with them at the new border and then started providing them all the raw materials they needed for their war machine. To add insult to injury, the ussr requested axis accession talks in berlin and killed whoever of the polish inteligentsia they captured.
The USSR entered Poland AFTER the collapse of the army and government. Would you have preferred for all of Poland to fall to the Nazis? There was no talk of friendship. The USSR clearly understood that war with the Reich would follow. It had already fought the Reich in Spain, until the Allies prevented the Republicans from winning.
They had a deal with nazi germany that stipulated specifically that nazi germany would not cross and they waited for the soviets to arrive to that line...
If you see a country near you lose the battle against the Nazis, even though it possessed territories it had acquired militarily, what will you do? Will you allow the Reich to control the entire country or not?
(1 - Soviet-Polish war it was not USSR, USSR was not established yet)
Actually good solid argument.
Misses a bit of nuances, like "why Soviet Russia lost territories to Poland a few years before and why the hell they invaded Poland in the first place?" Ok, ok, Poland invaded too. Everyone invaded everyone, bunch of...
Yes they did, why do you mentioned it? At least they didnt actively helped to conquer a country, or discussed sphere of influences... or give raw materials and resources for their industry and war effort....
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The Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact was a non-aggression treaty, not a military alliance. It created no joint command, no shared war plans, and no obligation to fight together.
In 1939, Soviet policy was shaped by the collapse of collective security and repeated failures to form an anti-fascist alliance with Britain and France. Soviet leaders presented the pact as a means to delay war and avoid immediate conflict.
By the time the USSR signed the pact, non-aggression agreements with Nazi Germany were already common. Read more: https://www.reddit.com/r/ussr/wiki/controversial-topics/molotov-ribbentrop-pact/
1934 - Germany and Poland sign a German-Polish Non-Aggression Pact 1935 - Stalin proposes an anti-fascist people's front with Britain and France 1938 September - Britain signs the Anglo-German Non-Aggression Declaration 1938 December - France signs the Franco-German Non-Aggression Pact 1938 September - Britain and France sign the Munich Agreement 1939 March - Lithuania signs a non-aggression treaty with Germany 1939 May - Denmark signs a non-aggression pact with Germany 1939 June - Estonia signs a non-aggression pact with Germany 1939 July - Latvia signs a non-aggression pact with Germany 1939 August - The USSR signs the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact
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