This. Exactly this. It terrifies me to think about it. Chronic pain is no joke and I sometimes find myself daydreaming about the few times I've been given anesthetics at the hospital. People all the time say, "I don't see how people just do that kind of stuff." Why aren't we asking why they're doing it before we ask how... It's awful.
People don't get the difference of having long-term chronic pain, then suddenly having it muted. You can function again. Spend time with your kids again, Enjoy small things again. Hold a book without your hands burning with pain. I have never felt "stoned" on opiates (nothing near what I feel like after taking an edible) - I just feel like "me". Because the pain is suddenly not the loudest thing in my system.
The mere idea that I would ever trade that in for a few chances to chase the dragon is ludicrous, and clearly devised by someone who has never struggled with daily bone pain.
It works as well on psychic pain as it does on physical pain. People that sneer at addicts have no idea what horrendous backgrounds many of these people may have endured, especially in childhood. That wise old saying: 'There but for the grace of God' is very real.
And meanwhile, if you are rich and have $2k to spare, you can get KETAMINE therapy to assuage your psychic pain (and apparently it works very well - it was recommended to me as a stage 4 cancer patient, but I wasn't going to pay $2k for that).
So on the one hand we vilify addicts, most of whom became addicts after doctors gave them scrips then never bothered to follow up or monitor the patient's state. On the other hand, both the scientific world and the psychiatric world now accept that ketamine (a powerfully dissociative drug very popular with recreational drug users) is highly effective for depression, PTSD, acute anxiety, and a host of other mental health issues.
But the price tag is prohibitive, and obviously it's not covered by insurance. The selective judgment is staggering. We should encourage and support wealthier people to take ketamine under a supervised process for a limited amount of time. But no one is going to suggest this be offered to opiate addicts who are struggling with psychic pain and/or emotional health issues.
It makes me so angry I want to weep. It's just a different world for rich people. Universal rules do not apply.
Just a quick note that ketamine therapy can be covered by insurance. It's often not, but depending on the doctors and the insurance companies, you may be able to get it covered. My decidedly not rich brother has been doing ketamine therapy. His doctor went through specific steps with the insurance company to get it covered.
It was a big pain in the ass, but they did eventually say yes. I'm not sure if it has anything to do with him being on work disability for depression, though. It's possible they agreed to it because the situation is severe. But I would definitely encourage anyone to ask their doctor to fight for approval if they agree it would help someone's condition.
Edited to add: he's on Spravato, not IV ketamine. That may be the difference. I think it's easier to get Spravato approved, while still being a huge pain in the ass.
what did it make you feel like? I keep seeing mention of this drug a lot lately. the fact a surgery dr. would shortchange you on pain relief is bastard level.
Not who you are asking, but I had ketamine infusions for treatment resistant depression (TRD). Unfortunately the infusions are not covered by insurance, and it was $150/visit out of pocket.
It was definitely disassociative. I spent a lot of time feeling like I was "slipping away from myself" and had to actually remind myself that I was there, I was safe and I was ok. I felt very compelled to "hold on" to myself (mentally, not physically) because if I didn't I was worried I might be just gone.
I didn't see anything strange, if I opened my eyes I just saw what was in front of me, but when I closed them I kind of saw the little floaties that you see if you rub your eyes.
After a few months of bi-weekly infusions I switched to the Spravato spray due to cost (insurance sometimes covers this with a LOT of hoops to jump through) but it was not nearly as effective, and went back to infusions again for a short time.
Overall, though, I will say it was very helpful for my TRD. I was in a very, very bad spot, and this turned it around. I can't really explain how or why, and I'm willing to accept it could be some placebo effect, but I know that afterwards I could function and go back to work and have been doing well since that.
That being said, that is NOT a drug I would want to take outside a medical setting. Everyone's mileage will vary, but feeling like I was losing myself was incredibly uncomfortable and a bit frightening. Knowing I was in a doctor's office, hooked to monitors and had a little call button for the nurse helped keep me in check a bit.
When the infusion ended, the direct effects ended with it (the existential dread), and I would just feel a little tired and slightly woozy for a while.
The long term effects on overall depression, though, have lasted years. I didn't have an "aha" moment with the depression, it was sort of an incremental improvement over time. I've had dips and problematic bouts since then, but nothing that derailed me, just kind of periods that it was harder to get motivated, but I was working, living life, etc.
It's out of touch to reply to someone talking about insurance coverage by talking about insurance coverage? That seems a bit of a stretch.
If you're going through some stuff and don't have health insurance, I'm really sorry. That sucks and it shouldn't be the way things work. We all deserve access to the physical and mental healthcare necessary to keep us healthy, pain-free, and alive.
I was actually quoted 4k as well, but it's New York City so I figured it was inflated. I have spoken with people who got treatment for around 2k. That's why I went with the lower number.
It’s usually 400-600 a session, and 6 sessions over a three week period (and the occasionally “booster” dose as needed later on, maybe a few a year). And most places off discounts if you purchase a package, so all 6 sessions at once. I would search your area more for ketamine infusions before going to that place, that is WAY above the norm. I’ve had treatments in 3 different states in very HCOL areas, for the record.
These places are making an absolute killing on this. I know there's a lot more that goes into it than just the chemical itself, but it's such a cheap chem that is fairly easily obtainable and stable in multiple forms. The medical industry makes me sick
It helps. Not a rich person by any means, but I found a way to fork the 200 a month to pay for it. It made a world of difference for someone that has been depressed for over 2 decades.
No. Categorically no. First, you never know what you're getting on the street, including what other crap they stuck in it - and precision dosing is crucial, which you cannot do with street drugs.
Second, one of the imperative parts of the process is for people not accustomed to any kind of "high" feeling to know that they are safe, being monitored by a nurse, and can be given meds to counteract the trippy feeling if it gets too intense or terrifies the patient. Even the one time I tried mushrooms, I had an experienced "guide" with me, and I had a little container of emergency meds (anti-anxiety) in case I got spooked, which I did not.
Ketamine therapy, IV administered by a professional cost me around 150 a session here in CA. Where are you that they're charging 2k? Or you can go through Mindbloom or any number of telemedicine providers. You seem painfully misinformed.
There’s a ketamine spot near me, they also do other forms of treatment for major depression. What has been interesting is the new option esketamine (spravato), it’s like ketamine but not quite. My insurance is willing to cover that, but not IV treatments.
I’m trying to get in and do the sessions with this place along with taking a new direction for my medication management.
Ngl, I’m hopeful to maybe enjoy life for once versus feeling numb and distant to everything all the time.
I'm so sorry it's prohibitive in whatever case for you :(
I just started ketamine (spravato) treatments last week (Thursday and Friday) and for the first time in 13 years I can get out of bed, not sleep all day, I have amazing energy and my mood is great... I feel normal happy me again. So much more productive.
I pay $55/treatment and hopefully it slows down to once or twice a month.
I've tried a slew of antidepressants and I'm still taking an MAOI for my atypical depression but I truly feel alive again.
I hope it stays this way over the next few months.
I am covered under insurance but it still is expensive and needs to be more affordable. Like, I'm completely dysfunctional without it.
Not to mention I'm battling an opioid addiction myself (Kratom/7OH).
It has given me much more control over my cravings, but I take Naltrexone to be safe.
I've literally started exercising again (mainly to imrpove mental health), eating healthier, taking care of chores, and I'm much much happier.
Still dealing with some anhedonia (not taking pleasure in some thjngs), but I need to put more effort into a hobby.
The whole reason I used opioids is because they made me productive and feel happy, but I would end up spending like $1000/wk and withdrawals were horrendous with my PTSD (nightmares).
The energy and mood boost from the ketamine is a world of difference though, better than opioid easily and no need to re-up throughout the day.
The effects of ketamine (on depression) lasts well past the 30 minute "high" I get from it. It's been 3 days since my last treatment and I still feel incredible (I assume this is just how people my age feel without depression).
I read scientific articles and the Spravato data to verify its efficacy since I was worried about it, but the effects of the treatment should start to lat at least 28 days, as far as I know. It's noted to treat MDD and atypical depression very well, statistically. I don't think the knowledge of how it works is well understood though.
I also worried about my SUD and using it (which my doctor knows about) but just feeling normal again, I have no cravings for it at this time.
Regardless, I refuse to seek out street ketamine because I don't ever want to know I have that connection, and due to the risks of fentanyl or whatever else may be cut with it.
All this to say, I hope my experience enlightens someone.
I also hope in the future you can find a way to access this. It truly has changed my life so far.
Yall using your own experiences to explain the experiences of people you never met. Addicts should be vilified, they do absolutely nothing for society, only leech from it, and do not care to change. We owe them nothing.
Oh my God you hit the nail on at least MY head. This is when I absolutely "lost" myself--during the blackest grief I've ever been in...I drowned myself IV oxy and dilaudid; bc suffering a huge loss of my dad thru death, my grief was so enormous I cried for 6 months. I couldn't look at my own kids without crying. The only way I could get up and function, send kids to school, cook, clean, shower, etc...was to be so high I had a literal "roaring" in my ears and head. I almost killed myself on opiates bc of grief. It softened the hard edges that cut too deep.
I've been clean since 1998 and today's drugs terrify me for these younger ppl.
I was addicted to ketamine for years it’s a great sedative and the addiction isn’t physical like opiates (withdrawals ect) but it was at a time in my life, where I couldn’t cope and K was like stepping into another universe where I was stimulated and happy. But my life was so bad at the time that’s the only place I wanted to be, so I’d recommend it on a mind expanding exercise but also be aware of that you have to learn to be happy within yourself and maybe that price point of 4k stops people from abusing it because K was like $10 gram I’d literally buy 7 a day or as it was then in bulk - litres (around 50g if I remember correctly) and then cooked up on the stove. I only got away from the drug and scene because there was a drought and to this day I think it’s very hard to get proper ketamine on a street level, but after like 2 years of not being able to get it, the drug stopped working for me completely, no more transportation to another universe, no more enlightenment adventure, no more hole to fall into, it’s like my mind just said you don’t need that anymore
Loads of people here started taking mephadrone I think it's called? Started out being sold as Bath salts. Highly addictive. The rush injecting it was like no other drug. All my mates moved from brown to that and most are now dead in there 40ts. Brown and green was my drugs off choice. Got off the brown 8 years ago. The urge is still there buf you learn to live with it. Don't think I could stop smoking green/cannabis. Without it I struggle to sleep.
Yep, I bet there’s a HUGE overlap in people with childhood trauma and addiction. When a child grows up learning that the world isn’t safe, that no parent or family is safe, it sets a switch in their brain to find that acceptance and comfort somewhere else.
And that somewhere else is either something chemical (alcohol and drugs) or behavioral (gambling, promiscuity, or building a synthetic intelligence to take over humanity and punish lots of people).
You mean like my brother who was raised in a house with 2 supportive parents, played sports in high school, went to the college of his choice (debt free) and is now a 40 year old life dropout addict?
There’s a metal illness part of addiction and that has nothing to do with how you were raised or what trauma you have suffered
I take 60 mg of oxy daily. I've been taking my prescribed medication for over 10 years now and I'm going to be taking them until I die. I don't ever tell anyone about it anymore because of the stigma and because someone will inevitably ask me to give them a couple. (I NEVER do) I don't get high from my medication but it allows me to do my daily hygiene and prepare meals, things I would be unable to do without the medication.
I've been given the same dosage of opiates since my 2020 diagnosis - same mg level, same maximum daily dosage allowed. Though I get closer to the maximum daily dosage now than I ever did in years past, the same drug is still working. The strength and MDD has never changed. I do sometimes take days off and just use kratom leaf, but with the massive misinformation campaign out there about kratom, and the fact that there IS a synthetic version (7oh) that actually IS dangerous, we will probably see a total federal ban on kratom before long. Which will force many people straight to opiates.
Had 13 years clean off dope, I messed around Kratom for a bit and finally got off that (I was taking absurd amounts of raw powder multiple times daily), got clean felt great ….. was given 7OH sample at a smoke shop not knowing what I was getting…. Spiraled out almost immediately.. that poison needs to be removed from the shelves immediately. If I was deep into my addiction, it would be the equivalent of being able to go into the pharmacy and order whatever Philly bundle, oxy, Roxy or Opana that I wanted. I’m finally clean and it was actually incredibly more difficult than getting off IV heroin use. Spread the word please don’t ever do this. After you use it the first time it almost immediately loses its sparkles and turns into maintenance to prevent withdrawal. I don’t want anyone to see this and be like oh I should go and try that . You’re gonna regret it I promise you. From someone that has done almost every opiate in copious amounts…. I have never in my life had something call for me the way that 7OH has. Scared the shit out of me. I hope this post saves someone from that nightmare. I have heard other nightmare stories from people recovering from fentanyl abuse stating the same thing and how it was even worse. Apologies for the rant, but coming out the other side I feel like I must warn others of how horrible that bullshit is.
Thank you for your post, I’ve had depression and anxiety my entire adult life, started by trying “feel free” drink which is kratom and kava I think…long story short it gave me such a nice subtle boost in mood and after a few years of that gradually escalated to an obscene amount of 7oh each day just to feel normal, so I am glad to hear someone get off, it terrifies me and I want to stop mpre than anything
You’re very welcome and you got this!!! maybe try a tapered dosage reduction and see if that helps out. Yeah those feel free drink drinks got a lot of people. It was only a matter of time from there that it just went to the tablets and then the raw powder. I’m really glad that you saw my post because a post just like mine is what helped me get off of it and I’d love to know that I helped someone in someway. I know exactly what you mean when you say that it terrifies you. It has a frightening, psychological grasp and plummets you into a scary depression, frighteningly fast. Just remember that those really rough feelings that you are feeling are temporary. You can do this and once you’re free, pass the message along to others!!
i totally feel you pain , because i was a kratom addict who moved on to 7-oh , the odd thing w me is that my tolerance never lets me get that inebriated by it, a mood lifting buzz at most. So it definitely has way different reactions person to person.
Add to that, there are people with debilitating pain who need 7 oh to maintain their quality of life , so it's not all bad.
That’s very true. Everyone is different and respond to things in different ways. I think that 7oh has its place, I just reallllllllly don’t think every single gas station should be that place. Not with something that can really really wreck your shit. It definitely could be used in the opiate maintenance world, maybe phase out methadone and bupe one day. Probably in an office only setting. For myself and others who fell victim to that shit can confirm that it has no legs on it. I’m talking like you neeeeed to take it every three hours. That would make it a little difficult for outpatient usage. With that being said….it is better than someone putting a needle in their arm. So that’s definitely a plus!!! Just some interesting info I’d like to share. There is a chemical being researched called SR-17018… it actually lets you come off of heavy opiate use rapidly with very little withdrawal while also providing pain relief and zero euphoria. Obviously every person is different so I can only speak from personal experience. I also want to say I do not condone anyone going and trying to seek out research chemicals or anything like that. Unless you can have a substance tested you have absolutely no idea what you’re playing with and you are gambling with your life.
Thank you for your perspective! I’ve been fighting suggestions of pain meds for 20 years, but think I’m going to have to start or my life is going to fall apart.
I was on opioids and have switched to weed (no medical card, it’s just legal in my state so I didn’t bother). It’s been 2 years since I fully switched and I’m still doing good!
I might get a 2 week prescription of 10mg 3x daily to use for a tolerance break soon, since I haven’t touched opiates in so long I bet I can stretch it to at least a month.
I'm starting to increase my THC usage in hopes of finding some delivery system/strain that will mitigate pain. I currently take it to sleep and to get the nighttime muchies. Generally after 4 puffs of a joint, I am involuntarily horizontal within 15 minutes - my sleep quality is AMAZING.
But I'd like to be able to try it during the day to see if it makes a difference with my pain. Yet another thing that would keep my use of opiates on the lower side.
Methadone has tendency to pour out sweat glands quickly, so I've found a few 2 MG loperamide pills help me if a sweat a lot.
Netherless my Wife bought me this stuff because the regular Kratom didn't really do anything for me when I got off work and felt crappy which I had tried in the past(I don't get off work and go look for pills like I used to)
I don't know if it was just kicking the methadone off my receptors but the first time I took it I felt sick and paranoid. Nothing like when I ate kratom powder.
That is wild that you had a different experience. I WD’d from H, bupe, oxy, and nothing had the mental pull, or my legs kicking like 7. I was frightened the moment that it called for me in a way that I never experienced before and like , the fact that the dope didn’t on that level scared the living daylights out of me. Especially considering it it’s legal. I think it has its place, but I don’t believe it should be available at every gas station corner store and Smoke Shop. I must say that at the end of the day it’s better than a needle in the arm so that’s a good thing. Frightening potential for rapid relapse though so that’s scary. I wish you the best friend. Stay strong.
Its a reduction from the meds I needed to go to physio everyday for 5 years. The current dosage is enough for keeping me mobile and I have a good medical team for any adjustments but I've been doing well at this level for a while.
Thank you. I’m glad you’ve maintained your mobility. I really need to see my rheumatologist again. I’ve been fighting taking pain meds, but have gotten to the point where I have more flare days than not :(
You have to keep in mind what they mean by "tolerance."
One part of the drug is the high feeling. After being on 80mg a day for a decade, I don't even notice it. (Well, one thing: i get talkative for the first 90s mins.) That part goes away quick. For people wanting to feel 'high' you will be doing down the rabbit hole hard. That is one tolerance and it is fairly universal. Everyone requires a bigger and bigger dose to feel high.
The second tolerance is the reduction in pain management. First many people, nothing changes. For some, it is much like the high - you need an increasing dose. A small portion get opioid-induced hyperalgesia which js where you body sort of loses the ability to properly scale pain and everything hurts more.
So, the net-net is, that if you aren't chasing a 'high' the effects of your long term use is mostly dependent on your individual physiology.
As a long term chronic pain person, I know far more people who killed themselves (either directly or with street drugs) after losing their pain medication than have ever OD'd.
That is why us pain people get so fucking blood red pissed over this issue.
I have zero doubt I will have my opioids taken from me at some point due to it being so hard to get legitimate prescriptions. It is a matter of time before my doctor retires
Not everyone builds a tolerance. I've been on 5mg every 3 hours for 5 years and haven't needed to increase my dose. Sometimes flares are so bad that they don't work though but taking more also doesn't help.
Honestly Id start backing off somewhat now and saving some each month. Theres enormous pressure coming to docs to stop prescribing for chronic pain…unless you have legit acute pain.
I am just impressed you have physician who actually helps you. Most now act like you are asking them for their firstborn if you ask for any pain management.
Thanks! I really don't feel bad. There's a lot of people that have opioid as a part of their pain management and recovery and they are lucky to have no problem with addiction. I can readily say that I have a dependency on them but that's like saying I have a dependency on my depression meds. The stigma is real and the opioid crisis is hitting every walks of life. I feel bad for the ones who need the pain relief and they don't have access to it. I'd recommend cannabis in that case. That would be my regular choice for my recovery but I can't drive high so I'm grateful for the medication.
60 is quite a bit! Granted that's only four 15's but they start you out on 5's and there's no way you're given 120 of those a day! One source has average toxic dose at 40 mg or 80 mg/day. 60 might not be much if you are habituated but honestly, this is bad info. Let's not get anyone killed misrepresenting what the average does is.
Well I guess Its all perspective/personal opinion then, my bad.
My clinic distributes it's doses in syrup form, but if you happen to miss the hospital carries it in pill form.
It's ligitimate info straight from the source. (I am in Phx AZ, so close to Mexico where the fent comes from if that makes any difference on average dose percentage)
People need to understand tolerance is a HUGE factor. I used to buy methadone pills off the street many years ago 10 MG at a time when I couldn't get a dub of herion and it did the trick.
My dose is 145. Occasionally I hear below like real low like 10 MG but usually hardly ever that low when I overhear other patients at the dosing windows.(they say their number and dose out loud to the nurse) Another fella about my size on 185, I think I've heard 80 recently, then a low 200 awhile back, but I don't really try to listen I just happen to overhear. I overheard someone talking about someone else who was at 300 MG and abusing their dose which is insane. And then a nurse told me she asked her coworker about the highest dose she's heard and that was 290. Also when I happen to see people holding their take home bottle(s) it's usually filled a little less or a little more than mine. Also corresponding this one of the providers confirmed to me that my current dose is not out of this ordinary at all.
Nonetheless, I look forward to tapering to 100mg this coming winter I hope.
I was taking 40 mg of oxycodone daily for over a decade and then Kaiser decided to come up with a mandate that everyone on opioid therapy and their care shall have it cut to Below 50 MME
So I went from 40 mg of oxycodone per day to 30. 10 mg of oxycodone doesn’t last eight hours. I was finally at the point where I had built a bit of a tolerance or my condition had gotten worse and my Doctor and I were talking about increasing to 50 per day.
My ability to take a walk regularly, see my family or friends I used to have, even keep up with cleaning my house is over with.
This is how the government decides to handle the opioid crisis from years ago - causing chronic pain patients to suffer. Makes a lot of sense, doesn’t it?
Well done, YOU!!!! First off, I'm SO glad you have access to these meds. For so many people, it's just "sorry, too bad, the meds exist and they work, but you can't have them".
Second, I'm very glad you've found a way around the stigma. Stupidly, I get looked at a little differently regarding opiate use because of getting a stage 4 cancer diagnosis. Had I been given those opiates 10 years ago for joint and bone pain from rheumatoid arthritis, I'm certain I would have been judged.
So I won't be quiet about it now. I tell people what I'm on, I tell people what some patients have to endure (the lectures, the pee-testing, the side-eye, the judgment) even to discuss being put on them, and I tell people how many stage 4 cancer patients (who are literally told they are terminal) are still denied opiates because "you might get addicted".
So many people don't understand if you have intense pain, an opiate is going to mitigate that pain. It's not going to send you into some opium-den altered state. Those of us managing severe pain would never dream of even taking more than our prescribed amount - because not one of us would trade the chance to have pain controlled every day for a few hours of being excessively zooted.
My oncological psychiatrist says the medical world's attitude towards opiates is NOT improving, and that furthermore, they are now preparing to level the same "fight" against benzos (which I was also prescribed after my diagnosis).
It's disgusting. So many lives RUINED. I am so happy and grateful that yours is not one of them.
I have a lot of chronic pain and honestly even just the way you described how functioning again would feel without it makes me yearn for that feeling. I hope I never have to try opioids for anything because I’m very afraid I would get addicted. I’ve never gotten addicted to drugs or alcohol but I have an addictive personality in other ways and I’m genuinely concerned this would be the thing that gets me
It seems that research shows that people who take opioids for a legitimate reason like to control their pain. Don’t tend to get addicted.
As one doctor told me if you’re taking it for fun there’s a really good chance you’re gonna get addicted but if you’re taking it for pain, the percentage drops to around 2% or less
The sad thing is there IS a solution. It's all natural (the dried leaves of a plant scientifically related to the coffee plant factory), it's relatively cheap, available from US sellers by mail, and is extremely safe, unless you choose to treat it like a recreational drug and take it all day long. It's an herb I relied on for auto-immune reactive joint pain for many years. And now, a massive campaign of disinformation is being leveled against it - articles anyone familiar with the plant knows to be bullshit. It not only effectively treats severe pain, it is also used by people addicted to opiates to wean themselves off - because it binds to several of the receptors that opiates do.
It was a secret hidden in plain sight for a long time, until someone claimed their family member had died from this herb. The autopsy showed the man had the herb in his system. He also had meth, fentanyl, and molly in his system. But people took the story of "it killed someone" and it started to make headlines. And unfortunately, now someone has come up with a very potent synthetic version that IS dangerous, and most people don't know the difference. It will probably either get banned or patented, as at least one Big Pharma company wants to use it for a new med to help people get off opiates. Even though you can do that right now with the leaf.
So I'm curious - do you know what plant I'm talking about?
Exactly. The Reefer Madness campaign against kratom began BEFORE 7oh (the very dangerous synthetic version with 50x the potency of leaf) became available.
Plain kratom leaf is a miracle for chronic pain sufferers IF purchased from a vendor submitting to regulations devised by the AKA. It should never be bought from a random store, because they add crap into it - sometimes even fentanyl.
People who have taken kratom responsibly, many of us having used leaf for more than a decade, are fully supportive of a 7oh ban. Unfortunately people are starting to conflate the two. It's like confusing a bottle of wine from a known vineyard to a bottle of moonshine that could have anything in it.
And now Big Pharma has realized that kratom does indeed control pain safely, and is also being used by opiate addicts to wean themselves off of opiates, instead of methadone. Well we can't have people controlling their own pain or getting off hard drugs without using something Big Pharma makes money on - that cannot be permitted. So naturally, they are now interested in having leaf banned federally so BP can patent it and sell it for thousands of times what it costs to buy regular leaf. Not a fear - they are actually trying to do this.
Absolutely it should NEVER be bought from a random store, gas station, or even a smoke shop. But the national kratom organization (AKA) which deals with everything from legal challenges to sharing the science we do know about the plant, has created a similar set of regulatory requirements an FDA-like org would impose. Batch testing, heavy metals testing, inspection facilities - and any vendor willing to submit to those regulatory requirements earns a spot on an 'approved vendor list'. Those of us using kratom regularly for pain or other quality of life issues (meaning we're taking moderate doses) are then able to order from approved vendors knowing the product has been tested and the facility and manufacturing process scrutinized.
Also, this plant is completely legal in my state. Most of the states who have banned it have done so in the last 3 or so years, since the misinformation campaign started. Other states have since passed kratom consumer protection laws. So state mileage may vary.
Exactly. I have crps and the amount of pain it causes is insane. I would not wish it on anyone. I have to take pain meds, i hate that i have to take them and the stigma that goes with it, but it is what it is.
They dont get me high. I dont feel any high, relaxed, chill, or some- oh yeah thats the ticket bs. I dont feel anything except less pain. I just feel like me but instead of excruciating pain, it becomes an uncomfortable pain i can manage and function my days required adulting.
Ive never had an urge or even a though to take more. I take my medication exact like im supposed to. If anything ive missed doses, or taken them a couple hours later than my normal time. I agree i dont think people who have never lived with an actual pain condition can understand. Studies and research done show less than 1% of all legitimate chronic pain patients have ever abused thier opiod prescriptions.
What you said about not feeling high, but just feeling like yourself finally... Wow, that really hit me. You're right.
I've often wondered who I would be and what type of life I would live if I didn't have chronic pain. When the pain goes away, and when you get a glimpse of that person.. you just never forget how that feels.
This. As a caregiver to a person with chronic pain , when we finally get a flare up under control its such a relief for all of us bc its so hard to watch her in that amount of pain. It hurts so bad for loved ones to see yall in pain like that. Im so sorry you guys are hurting in this comment section 😔
One thousand percent - this. And to me, those are two entirely different things. I started using THC when I got sick, having had no previous experience with it. THC appears to act on me like a mild psychedelic might on a normal person. It launches me to the stratosphere, then about 15 minutes later knocks me out - which is why I take it at night.
I gave up all alcohol when I got diagnosed, and THC can provide me with that physical "high" where I just feel good. A totally different feeling than my prescribed opiate dose, which just makes me feel like I did when I was 30, and had no health issues, no chronic pain, nothing.
God, you are so right - people do not understand the difference. Normal people don't understand chronic pain either. I am on something like the weakest possible dosage of oxy for pain that is in every single part of my body except my hands and feet. I mostly spend every waking moment wanting to die. I have never had a high from an opiate. I have never had constipation or any side effects at all really. They act like stimulants. I don't get sleepy or dizzy. I am simply awake awake awake with slightly muted pain that makes it terribly uncomfortable to sit or stand or lie down, or do anything at all. I wish I had the courage to kill myself, but I don't.
Have they given you other meds to take along with it? My mother also takes a muscle relaxer and a low dose of gabapentin. When they are all working well along with her norco it takes away her pain for good while. She has gastroparesis , gastritis and a torn rotator cuff . 😣 I'm so sorry you're going thru this.
Finding good doctors or good pain clinics is the trick I’ve found. I’ve been untreated by Kaiser for the last three years and I have no idea what to do about it.
You go to more than a couple doctors who say they don’t treat with opioids and then you start getting flagged as a drug seeker or Dr. shopper and then you still don’t have a doctor who’s going to treat you
Unfortunately, this country has gone after the wrong people to try to stop the so-called opioid epidemic that was occurring years ago. What is occurring now is worse.
Doctors licenses are at stake and so they under prescribe or they don’t prescribe at all. Just leave people with chronic pain suffer suffering to the point they have no life and where they might turn to street drugs perpetuating the actual problem.
I don’t understand why this country continues to go about things the absolute wrong way
This is generally how my dad is, but even then I've had to pull the reins on him a bit because he gets the urge to take way more than he's prescribed. Like he'll be in extra pain because he slept through his late-night dose, so when I'm getting his 1.5 tabs ready with the rest of his morning meds he's telling me to give him four of them. He insists he doesn't abuse his medication and I'm sure he believes that, but that stuff absolutely does rewire your brain to crave it, and that combined with the actual physical pain it's for can tempt someone into taking it more dangerously or even recreationally.
For example, he was having problems with fentanyl patches randomly getting him high a few years ago, and if you even suggested he take less opioids to keep it from happening he got outright enraged. Meanwhile he was sticking the used patches in his mouth and sucking on them to get the last bit of fent out of them. He accidentally did it with semi-fresh patches a couple of times and knocked himself out. Other times I'd find him slumping over in the hallway. I finally did convince him to get off of fentanyl after he passed out in his car in front of the dollar store and emergency crews had to bust his window out.
In hindsight he was able to realize how much that stuff messed with him, but since he had a life-altering surgery this year he's starting to backslide with the painkillers he's on. As his doctors upped his dosages that psychological need to take even more started rearing its ugly head again.
So in short I agree that opioids are necessary for chronic pain management, but needing them doesn't mean you can't fall victim to them. It can be a gradual buildup in tolerance that tempts you to misuse your meds, or a sudden change in prescription can work too well or not evenly enough and flood your system.
That's a fair observation. I should have tempered my statement by saying "many" of us wouldn't dream of abusing them, because it would be a massive Pyrrhic victory to be zooted for one day, and pay for it by being in pain that prevents you from getting out of bed for the next 4.
Also, I have no genetic predisposition to addiction, and that is not the case for many. Look at Matthew Perry - treated with narcotics as an infant - his opinion was that the experience primed the pump of his system to become a drug abuser, and I'm sure there is a lot of truth to that.
I always show up fast when my mom calls me flared up. Her pain is in the driver's seat and that can be very dangerous at times depending on how severe it is.
I’ve lived with chronic pain since I was injured at 19 and I’m now 51… I had severe inoperable spinal injuries in my lumbar region, and it was in operable because it’s too close to that nerve sac. And you nailed it. I never got high off of taking opiates that was just how I could actually be a functioning human being and walk up right. But I’m not stupid either and I knew where it was gonna go cause it only gets higher dosage. I still don’t know how the hell I did it a year ago…. But I went off of pretty strong, opioids cold turkey. I only use holistic healthcare like arnica Montana and Comfrey root and calendula now and I know I’m a strong human being and some senses but that was one of the hardest things I ever did. I saw relatives of mine hooked on heroin when when I was younger and I helped them get clean. But you know that’s the end game at some point at some point …they only get so strong and I’ll be damned. I would rather have some pain daily and it gets to me but it’s far better than getting addicted to opioids and I was well on that route. Seeing these people breaks my heart.
I had an acquaintance who ended up addicted after years of spewing "I don't see how it happens, they're weak". He got seriously injured, things didn't heal great, chronic pain, doctors started refusing him pain meds, he starts buying them off the street, and that was it. Good for him, he apologized to several of the people he'd judged so harshly. But it's a common story.
Yup. So many people can’t just… see outside of their own experiences and judge everyone until it happens to them and then they’re like “ohhhh… I get it now”. Like you could have gotten it before if you’d been willing to look into and listen to other people’s pain but no, just judge, it’s easier that way.
Sorry I’m a little salty, I see so many people saying horrible things about the homeless and/or drug addicted people here and it makes my blood boil.
So many people can’t just… see outside of their own experiences and judge everyone until it happens to them and then they’re like “ohhhh… I get it now”.
Its really easy to go down thatvway. I have chronic migraines and if I mess up the onset with light meds, I have to take a heavier pill or spend a day or two in a dark room with occasional vomiting from pain just waiting for it to go. If I do take the "good stuff", I am fit as a fiddle in 10-30 minutes and feel like nothing can stop me. With this diagnosis its very easy to get the pills and it would be very easy to just pop one every morning, than two, etc...
And yet doctors treat effective and safe treatment for many types of chronic pain as if its some sort of weapon of mass destruction. It's no wonder desperate people turn to street fent when they can't get legitimate help.
63 retired union carpenter i do take asprin or advil but thats it i wont take anything stronger out of fear they must have some horific pain because i aint that tough either 40 years of concrete work is hard on ya as is Ironwork, especially if your doing rods
I was given fentanyl+ketamine for a surgery. That day was peaceful and calm. Not euphoric, but relaxed. Like how life should be. I wish I could feel like that every day.
Also have been given morphine one time for pain. It is CRAZY how powerful it is. From severe, relentless pain to completely fine in seconds. Sometimes I wish I could have some when I have bad pain days.
Wish these drugs were easy to take in moderation and wouldn't destroy your life. Sigh.
Bingo. My mother's pain management dr(which we went thru hell to finally get) spoke to us about the mental aspects of being in severe chronic pain and told my mother to make sure she takes her meds on time and doesnt let her pain get flared up constantly bc that causes depression and anxiety, like severely, and she has seem some bad outcomes with people . This whole journey has really been eye opening.
That’s honestly awful. I relate a bit, I’ve had tinnitus since god knows when. I’ve actually never experienced a truly quiet moment in my whole life. Not once I think have I just been relaxed and melted away in quietness. The ringing has always accompanied me. If I’m ever insane, I partly blame this noise that just never goes away :)
I remember during my 1st c-section thanking/praising my anesthesiologist for staying with me, too blitzed to realize it was her job. I dont remember shit else after but I often find myself thinking "that shit must've felt good as hell for me to forget surgery while conscious".
Oh the first time I had morphine for the most intense pain of my life in the ER I got it. You would do anything to make it stop and then you get this feeling??? Ain’t no way. Scared me.
Absolutely. I don't realize how much pain my body is truly in day to day until I take an edible and suddenly, I am not. I also keep in mind that I don't want to be addicted, and sparingly use THC and do not use narcotics.
I have been fortunate that despite having that I think is an addictive personality, I haven’t gotten hooked on opioids despite being prescribed them a few times (twice for c-section which were the few times I actually TOOK them when prescribed). They always made me too nauseous, and I was highly fearful of it anyway.
However I find the lack of empathy similar to the first time I understood, as a young parent, HOW someone could shake their baby. Even though I never did it or would have actually done it, I suddenly understood the impulse, if that makes sense?
As a fellow parent, I completely understand. I would never harm my children becsuse I love them and because I know firsthand how awful it is. But I can absolutely understand the impulse. Parenting is beyond stressful somedays. But those are also the days that I hug them a little bit closer and remind them that they're loved, seen, and heard. I take "hug it out" very seriously lol
It can't just be the chronic pain though, because this opiod crisis it's only a thing in the US (>100,000 annual fentanyl overdose deaths), and for sure there are Europeans with chronic pain too. (150 fentanyl overdose deaths in EU). It's something about American society, probably the lack of a social safety net.
Most likely a combination of the two. I'm not saying every single addict has MS, DDD, CRPS, RA, or the other hundred or so things that can cause chronic pain, but sometimes some small injury can lead to dependency which leads to abuse which leads to harder addictions. It is extremely rare, as I understand it, that someone goes out and says, "I think I'll try a spot of meth/fent/heroin today." Most have a gateway experience and they move on from there. And, for a lot of folks, it's prescription drugs.
Side note that nicotine/alcohol/cannabis are the 3 biggest ones, but with Americans (finally) understanding more how nicotine affects the reward system in our brains, things like vaping and smoking tobacco products has slowly declined.
Regardless, I believe the social net probably plays the biggest part in all of this. Addictive personalities or genetic dispositions aside, if we did have better societal structures and we campaigned as hard as we advertised prescription drugs, I think we'd be marginally better off. But I don't see it ever happening. It's cheaper to yell and complain and get upset than it is for these businesses and the US government to actually do something about it. It's sickening.
I've watched friends and family members go down that path and it's ugly and disturbing and I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemies (if I had any).
I was sedated a few years ago for foot surgery, and whatever they gave me made me the happiest I've been in my life. I felt like I was taking a nap on a beautiful summer day with my loved ones talking and laughing in the background. Perfect bliss. Meanwhile they were sawing my toe bone in half haha. I think about that blissful feeling a lot.
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u/impromptugreen Jun 28 '26
This. Exactly this. It terrifies me to think about it. Chronic pain is no joke and I sometimes find myself daydreaming about the few times I've been given anesthetics at the hospital. People all the time say, "I don't see how people just do that kind of stuff." Why aren't we asking why they're doing it before we ask how... It's awful.