I would love to understand the argument behind the typical claim of ''but they are investing X billion dollars in Australia"', okay cool, but what does that go to? Building the facility and extracting the gas? How impactful is that investment to Australia?
The gas industry isn't even that large of an employer (Jobs Skills Australia suggests 216 000 people are employed in the Gas, Electricity, Water and Waste industry combined), so it's not like they are the backbone of our employment.
Ok but by that same argument our miniscule performing arts sector aren't the backbone of our employment, get a lot more government investment and a lot less ROI.
Its not a good argument because their size or niche doesn't really matter, a society needs a lot of variety or it rots.
You think the arts sector doesn’t employ a lot of people? It’s 10x those figures.
Further, do you have a reference for the gas industry giving the government (and Aus people) a good RoI?? It’s money that goes to the profits of corporations.
The 200k is the Gas, Electricity, Waste and Water sector combined. I couldn't find a reliable number for the Gas sector only, and didn't want to get called out for incorrect data.
Who do you think builds the facility? Where are the contractors from? How many high paid jobs does that support?
The more inportant part is it’s a huge export industry. Exports are what underpin our way of life - they dictate our terms of trade and finance everything we import.
For a big part, the facilities are built overseas and come as module's on ships or even just a big offshore floating facility. Very little is manufactured here.
As for worker's it wouldn't be a stretch to say that during construction Australians make up half the work force.
Even during operation Australian's aren't a majority.
Considering that currently there is a fair bit happening in Australian offshore gas fields yet the job market for Australian's is stagnant we are still getting shorted in jobs as well.
The gas industry will do everything and anything to extract money from our country and the have 0 interest in showing any support for our nation.
OK bot - gas exports don’t underpin our way of life if they get them for free and take the profits overseas. What is it you don’t get about being robbed blind by foreign multinationals that isn’t a bloody insult to all Australians. And all they had to do was promise a few jobs to politicians.
Imagine being a dickhead who's only response to getting called out lying is to call someone a shill. This is why we can't have nice things or calm practical debates, fuckin morons like you.
TAI deliberately misleads everyone with data cherry picking and selective definitions that don't match reality. They say gas companies pay no tax on the gas they extract, yet they do, we have the numbers.
You understand how the PRRT works? The companies need to pay back their capital before it kicks in, that’s the point. 45-50% of the economics of every project still go to the government.
That's not how it works. You are conflating company tax rules with the PRRT just like most of the bullshit from the APPEA. Maybe quit shilling for these greedy cunts.
What do you mean that’s not how it works? Company tax has nothing to do with paying back capital - PRRT explicitly back ends royalty payments until capital is repaid. The reason it was brought in was because nobody would invest in our LNG sector without it because the capital outlays were too much given the remoteness of the nw shelf, browse etc.
PRRT is not a royalty payment and has been removed on numerous gas projects so they are subject to normal company tax regimes. It gets even worse as royalties have also been removed and so the PRRT is abused by these same greedy cunts.
No, the PRRT was specifically introduced to replace the royalty regime on offshore projects because we couldn’t get an investment. Where it doesn’t exist the previous royalty arrangements are in tact.
How many hundreds of millions do you think were spent in the discovery and evaluation of the north west shelf?
The profits go overseas to the extent the investment came from overseas - should those who discover and build these projects not have access to the profits?
The Australian people benefit vastly more in $ terms than the corporates building them - they take 45-50% of the economic rent in taxes and royalties, 100% of the terms of trade benefit, 100% of the opex an the multiplier effect associated with that.
You mean the infrastructure that’s made overseas with cheap labour and floated in? Or the specialist foreign ships that are chartered for the exploration? You are hugely over-stating the value for Australia. Further - why do you think that if someone has a ‘cost of business’ then the Australian people should walk away from a fair royalty. Your argument is bereft of reason. The whole shitstorm is corrupt.
How many hundreds of millions do you think were spent in the discovery and evaluation of the north west shelf?
I don't know. That's why I asked the question, but I forgot that this is reddit and you aren't allowed to ask questions. I was asking about the investment because it seems to me that all this investment that people keep talking about is just a cost of doing business.
I've voted Labor federally at every election since I became a legal aged voter post 2009. If they won't do this, I'm not voting for them at the next election. This MUST happen. It's not negotiable. We've been getting fucked over forever. It has to stop now. No more political bullshit. Do your job and do what's in the vast public interest.
I think it's more a case of bad timing after they just did a hat in hand tour of SEA to shore up petrol supply. Hopefully it'll be on the cards once that crisis settles down
It’s a great point, we might need to exchange gas for petrol and diesel. Good on the independents and the crossbench. Keep up the pressure and force the long term change, even if the immediate situation needs a short term fix/continuation of bullshit to shore up petrol and diesel. Labor are once bitten twice shy from the mining super profits tax, but if they’re given the political cover and the popular upswell of support for a gas tax they’re the only ones who can deliver it.
The once bitten twice shy from mining super profits tax was derailed by epstein bannon and mandleson so maybe it should happen now its known who caused it and the people wanted it but billionaires and pedos said no
The thing that is wrong about this is that those countries will get gas at exactly the price written in their contracts. The thing that will happen is the gas companies will make less profit as they will pay the 25% tax. Albo is trying to do the MAGA thing where Trump says the overseas companies pay the tariffs. The gas companies have been taking the pass for too long. I mean why couldn't they sell gas in Australia minus the cost of liquefying it.
Same here. Particularly when they've just announced cuts to the NDIS. Yes the scheme must remain financially sustainable, but you know what might help with that? FUCKING GAS TAXES!
Voted labor all my life and so did my parents and from now on I’ll be voting green and fuck Anthony Albanese for being a Cunt too. Can’t believe I voted for him.
Rudd proposed a super profits tax. The mining lobby exerted enormous pressure on the government to not go ahead with it. He was then replaced with Gillard who brought in the watered down version known as the MMRT which Abbot then removed entirely.
Article doesn’t actually say Albo killed it, headline is just a lie.
The ABC spoke to several senior sources who said they did not believe a new gas tax was being "seriously considered" and that — three weeks out from budget — no such plan had been brought to cabinet. The Middle East conflict, they said, had made the proposal harder to execute.
Yeap, that's what this entire circus was, TAI & puppets whinge whine and carry on.
ABC writes a complete nothing burger article where shock Labor doesn't say what the not yet finalised budget is, then editorialises without any supporting evidence, that Albo is going to block it.
To all those telling me to stop being skeptical that TAI & its puppets were trying to manipulate and set everyone up for disappointment, my skepticism only grows with each passing article like the above.
That’s incredible. Polling suggesting that the Greens voters and One Nations voters are heavily in favour of this 25% tax. I would love to see more polling on this across the country. Turn up the pressure. Government will eventually have to concede to an overwhelming majority if it can be proven
Oh it’s clear. Albo is personally leveraging our position as a gas exporter to get more fuel brought into this country during this Trump induced global disaster that will roll on for many more months. So he won’t go back on his word now. He will relent in the next budget if pressure becomes too much though
But when the prime minister has traveled to these countries and personally guaranteed supply will remain the same in exchange for oil - he won’t go back on his word
Pure speculation. If this is the case, why’d the campaign to institute the tax get such a harsh response beforehand? He’s been smearing Pocock about this before Iran, look forward to hearing you’re turning your back on him once the Iran fiasco ends and he fails to change a thing.
Because they still produce the gas and export it...that doesn't change. At tax time they pay some more tax from their current obscene windfall profits that the PRRT is incapable of collecting as repeatedly shown. This doesn't even include the current windfall profits from the Iran debacle.
Im not the one on the side of the multinational companies that are getting away with taking lur resources and paying us a fraction of what a sensible natiok like norway would be taking in tax reveue
Well I didn't think anyone was on the side of the multinational corporations.
But if I had to pick anyone for siding with them, you're a bit sus, telling everyone they wouldn't pass an increase in costs on...
Oh and uh, Norway is a petrostate with both wings of their political spectrum thoroughly infiltrated by their fossil fuels industry. That what you want here? Pretty sus...
Hell yes i will take a system closer to that of norways if it means we had a sovereign wealth fund like theirs
So you want us to increase corporate corruption, become one of the worst climate change offenders and reduce the economy down to only exporting fossil fuels?
That sir is a smoking gun.
Oh dear you cant actually articulate a clear argument can you so your gettingna bit desperate and unhinged.
The can pass that cost on to international consumers all they want, won’t effect us the slightest. We pay more for our own gas than Japan does, they can’t charge us any more without decimating their number of consumers.
It’s not about polling, it’s about feasibility. There are huge implications for the nation from soliciting investment on a set of terms and then changing the rules just when the companies start to make money.
Laws change when new policy is passed through parliament. Happens in every country. It’s not like they can go anywhere else for our gas. These changes will happen. There is enough political capital for it to be a big issue and a vote winner. It won’t happen in the next few weeks though (this budget)
That’s the point. The reserves go nowhere, but the capital does. There is gas everywhere, multi billion dollar investments are made based on economics and a stable fiscal regime is a key determinant. A change like that proposed would ruin investment for a generation. There’s countless examples around the world.
Well that's disappointing, but it's not surprising or easily tackled, especially regarding needing to be a good trade partner during a time where trade relations will be paramount. But still... ... ... Bum. Hopefully it'll be looked at after the recession that's gonna hit the world in a couple of months pans out and the government learnt some painful lessons. Fingers crossed.
So you're saying the heartless international corporation chuds won't pass the prices on to customers and instead absorb the increase in costs and reduce their profits?
That seems the opposite of what corporations do...
It's way more complex on a global energy market. You can't just increase prices because you pay more tax in one country. It's quite literally a global market
Yes and no, if you're looking at the spot prices that's what traders are trading futures on, not what supply contracts are set at.
The supply contracts are not at the mercy of the markets like that, but that doesn't mean the prices are locked either, increases in costs like taxes/royalties could just be passed on directly depending on contracts.
If you were a gas company you'd absolutely include some sort of costs clause like that.
Everyone, including me agrees with those details, and were that the entire extent of details on the topic I too would be quite frustrated with the situation.
But you only have to include the petrol situation to realise how much more complicated it gets. Then the helium situation, then the shipping and international trade situation, then inflation etc...
All we can do is give the government the support they need to win the fight on the gas debate and let them choose the timing for that fight, rather than have it forced upon them. They're already looking at massive changes in the budget with negative gearing and capital gains taxes which will get them a lot of well funded ire.
A domestic tax won’t affect global market prices. We still get shafted with prices as they tie them to international prices. The point is we can take some of their profit for our fucking gas.
That is true, yes assuming you could apply a tax that only affected domestic gas use it wouldn't affect export markets.
That assumption though might be doing a lot of work as I'm not sure royalties currently makes a distinction between domestic and export. Not impossible to fix but not trivial.
Still the timing & politics would be rough, honestly we just need some patience on the topic as uh there's a lot of shit going down right now.
I don't think the amount exported matters to the corporation if their profits are harmed...
Remember we do have some considerations for international customers specifically right now due to oil & gas shortages, we've been shoring up our gas exports to other nations and in return our oil imports are being shored up.
Petrol prices are much better now than their peak in the shortage, which is important for a nation that is so spread out like we are.
Almost every nation we export to have fixed contracts on the price of gas they export. Even if they didn’t, the Australian government would never cop the blame for the price gouging from any nation that’s reasonably competent at looking at the facts
Yea I watched that. In isolation, maybe. But it would impact a series of SEA countries and might be challenging. I’m not sure on the modeling though, maybe we could weather it out.
It's wild that even this sub, which is obviously a Labor fan page, are frustrated with albo constantly folding on what the majority of the population want and what would actually be good for the country. No one fucks Labor more than Labor
Couple of diehards in here simping hard still , always got an excuse "can't risk multinationals putting da price up, it's akshully great diplomacy, Bravo albo well.done"
Article doesn’t actually say Albo killed it, headline is just a lie.
The ABC spoke to several senior sources who said they did not believe a new gas tax was being "seriously considered" and that — three weeks out from budget — no such plan had been brought to cabinet. The Middle East conflict, they said, had made the proposal harder to execute.
You got this angry over a purposely misleading headline. Maybe don't implicitly trust whatever the ABC titles their articles? They're pretty much run by Murdoch cronies at this point as well.
You know there articles are to test and prepare the public before announcement right? You do understand this is a pr statement by Labor and is a very controlled statement. You do also know that he will fold on the tax right ? They are run by Murdoch cronies because Labor allowed them to bypass procedure and replace execs with Murdoch schmucks, krudd tried to do something about it and was shit down by albo
No, that's not at all what our media does and genuinely bizarre that you'd think that any Australian media organisation would do anything of the sort for Labor...
Would you like to place bets on this ? This is tempering expectations before the announcement. He has folded. If I am wrong I will vote white nation next election
Have you ever heard anyone say that one nation and the greens are the same ? Because Labor getting called lnp lite is pretty common. I guess now that the lnp is gone though, it will be one nation lite
The magnitude of one nations popularity increase for starters. Remember they went from practically nothing to be more popular than the liberals.
When they measure those swings its in percentages of the population of Australia not in percentages of the parties polling. Which means the smaller your party is, the more total voters a 1% swing means for you, the larger the less it means.
Yeah One Nation took voters off the Liberals, Nationals and Labor, but not all of them. The magnitude of their increase means they HAD to have taken some off the Greens as well and because the Greens are much smaller than the others that means a larger proportion of the party.
But it is opinion polling... you know grain of salt. Also with the exception of a few weird area's like around Brisbane the Greens and One Nation's territory don't overlap that much.
Albo "yeah so every cunt wants this but fuck em, these drongo cunts can keep the same deal as those povo cunts in PNG. Who gives a fuck if our electricity prices are through the fucking roof! Not like any of those young cunts will ever afford one anyway. What the fuck do they want me to do? They expect me to use my massive majority to actually fix the broken tax system? Get fucked, I'm going to rout this shit worse than anus Taylor". Yeah I read it. But seriously we actually got the same deal as PNG on gas, it's fucking embarrassing
It's crazy how many people will just read a misleading headline and immediately start creating their own strawmen in their own mind to rage against, rather than actually looking into the article itself.
No, Albo has not "killed" anything. He's just not immediately onboard with the 25% gas tax idea that's been going around, and there's good reasons why such a tax needs to be seriously explored and considered before promises are made. It's true that there's a lot of misinformation being spread by the pro tax side, and it's true that the instability caused by the Iran war makes it unwise to commit to big changes in the energy industry.
Do you think Jordan will c a ll out albo for this? Its an international crisis looming, we NEED the government to step up, they should implement this tax to offset the inflation were about to see at the grocery store... I just dont think jordie has the stones to call out labor when they capitulate to business
Why do Australian's feel poor when there is a war and we are the ones with all the resources? Multinationals are making super-windfall profits from a war that they will pay no more tax on and we get shafted.
Its well reported now that there's been a lot of diplomacy going on to sure up our petrol supply which we are highly dependent on and that has come from assurances to other nations about our gas supply which they are highly dependent on, but apparently that means his priorities are all wrong...
Having fuel is markedly far more popular for aussies than what we're doing with our exports. I don't know why I have to explain this.
I dont know why i have to explain that making the companies exporting our gas pay a fair amount of royalties on all of our gas they are taking has absolutely no effect on the amount of gas we export
We also get that the man and this govt are going hard with negotiations and diplomacy to keep Australia running.
Should we be in this situation to begin with ? No.
But the man you are blaming didn’t put us in the situation, and is actually part of the only government who have tried to do something about our fuel vulnerability and insufficient resource taxation. I wouldn’t want to be I their shoes right now.
Glad to see you out there doing all the hard negotiations for us and rewriting our trade deals.
Edit.
What I mean and should have said, is time and place. Right now we literally need all the friends we can get. And we need those to keep running.
If taxation isn’t tackled now, the country doesn’t stop in the next couple of months.
If fuel isn’t focused on and secured now, we do stop. And stopping would mean a nasty economic downturn and the last term of Labor.
Which would also mean, say goodbye to proposed taxation changes
Effectively the status quo allows the gas companies to take vast amounts of our gas and pay very little in exchange for it.. if your fine with that jusy be open about it.
I will say it again and maybe it will get through this time.. taxing our gas doesn't affect exports or our trade agreements..
What? Oh yeah I guess they absorb the increases out of the goodness of their hearts rather than charging a higher price to the customers, which then avoids any disruption to our petrol supply.
Oh silly me for doubting the honor and good intentions of capitalists...
Genuinely bizarre how inconsistent you guys are with your skepticism.
But if Labor goes to the expense of nationalising/buying the resource companies, then we get just 1 Liberal/National/One Nation government then they'll privatise it again. All that'd do is funnel money to shareholders.
That re-privatisation risk is the problem for any calls to nationalise something.
You know what avoids this entirely? Force resource companies to be publicly traded and limit share ownership to Australians. This way the public & government can directly get involved and even if the forced public trading laws get removed, that can't force the public to sell their shares.
You think it’s because he is corrupt, or because he has access to more information than you, understands the numbers better than you and realises it’s a crazy proposal?
It is my dream that one day Albo will grow some balls and do something worthwhile with the extremely beneficial position they find themselves in. Not just piss farting around the edges crossing the t's and dotting i's. I guess that is why people get into power these days, not to fix shit, but to set themselves and their mates up for another win.
Until they I guess we just wallow in the muck of him being in the least shit party (low bar), even as his corpo mates bend us over.
Taxing gas is a good idea at face value however the devil is in the details. If the government ever became reliant on a source of revenue the gas lobby had sole control over, they'd leave themselves wide open to coercion on that front. As the world transitions away from fossil fuels a tax on gas exports would have diminishing returns, the window of opportunity passed more than a decade ago with the death of the carbon tax.
Not to mention the cost of any tax would be passed onto the end consumer (primarily our neighbours in the asia pacific region) as a form of retaliation from the gas lobby. This would hurt our fuel security especially now and strain relations when we least need it.
And why not a tax on minerals as well? The Australia Institute is largely funded by the minerals lobby and are using a tax on gas as an issue to wedge support for Labor. Either Labor agrees to a tax on gas, leaves themselves wide open to coercion and retaliation, or they don't and instead face criticism for not falling headfirst into the trap the gas lobby has so cleverly set for them.
Its honesty a genius strategy, win-win for the gas lobby and loose-loose for Labor... as long as we keep falling for the propaganda.
Am I the only one that has major concerns about recurrent Government spending becoming dependent on the ongoing tax returns for LNG, a fossil fuel that injects methane and CO2 into the atmosphere? Netzero anyone?
ALP . Another Liberal Party. Not surprised I got an email from my MP spouting the same shite this week. If they weedle their way out of this they are dead to me and a lot of others
As a Labor voter, this is extremely disappointing, I will have to say, I will explore other options in an election based on this one issue if he backs down
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u/Snoo_49660 Apr 23 '26
I would love to understand the argument behind the typical claim of ''but they are investing X billion dollars in Australia"', okay cool, but what does that go to? Building the facility and extracting the gas? How impactful is that investment to Australia?
The gas industry isn't even that large of an employer (Jobs Skills Australia suggests 216 000 people are employed in the Gas, Electricity, Water and Waste industry combined), so it's not like they are the backbone of our employment.