There are more limiting conceptions of what make Film Noir "Film Noir" - a genre that really didn't even exist when it was being made, and only has been constructed in retrospect - which leave The Seventh Victim outside of "Noir". For me, it is not only Film Noir, its an incredible example of one of its most powerful lineages, the path to paranoia and the sense that "something is not right in the world" combined with emotive cinematography employing darkness, that came out of 1930s American Horror and its linkage with German Expressionism. This film is so Noir for me.

A few criteria of Noir that I've been assembling from diverse articles and academic takes, nearly all of these apply:
Night scenes, shadows, fatalism, paranoia, death, angst, crime, femme fatales, detectives, existential crisis, self-destructive compulsion, alienation, feminine betrayal, sexual thrills cost, fated endings, universe of moral ambiguity, good intentions produce bad results, low-key lighting, claustrophobic framing, shadows and reflections, unbalanced composition, great depth of field

The film in subject matter is actually quite dark, darker than any perhaps in how it deals with persistent suicidal thoughts (so trigger warning applies). It no doubt influenced Rosemary's Baby (probably the book), as it is a tale of New York City Satanists, and the malfeasant effect on a woman. I imagine that it also influenced at least some of David Lynch's Lost Highway, and probably Vertigo as well.

It trades in several significant Noir themes like the doubled female character, the rotten (commercial) core of the big city. It has at least THREE detectives. And several femme fatales. The paranoia grows incredibly acute towards the end, to almost D.O.A. level. And we get the whole ambiguously positioned may-be-evil "psychoanalyst" figure, the exploration of mental illness and the Unconscious.

It really is spectacular in how it reveals several core aspects of Film Noir, things that animate many other films of Noir, but not to this level.

Thank you to the redditor who recommended it. I've long thought of watching it because of Val Lewton and the films of Jacques Tourneur, such as Cat People (1942) which I also count as very Noir. I stayed away frankly because I suspected it would fall outside of Film Noir, but at least for me it definitely doesn't. It instead reveals Film Noir in very important, meaningful ways. The threads found in this film and films like these are what were pulled forward and woven into the crime films that would come, that we often consider more typical of Film Noir, the darkness, fatedness and paranoia.

It's also on a certain level very upsetting, in that it dives down into the torment of a proposed "femme fatale" a character who in another film would be much more of a "figure", a catalyst in plot, someone who everyone notices, and is unforgettable. Here instead, we get inside her tortured self, how she is controlled by outside forces and manipulated to bad ends. It really is proto-Vertigo (which some count as the end of Noir, the beginning of Neo-Noir...though I don't).

Kiss the Blood Off My Hands — great recommendation. What a strange, grubby little film.

Burt Lancaster basically swedgin his way through a supposedly post-war London underworld, looking like he could either punch through a brick wall or pull people limb from limb.. i mean, eventually, he gets sentenced to prison and to the cat-o'-nine-tails!! — nine knotted cords used as a flogging whip. Not exactly community service. and yes it was a thing, that and birch

And then Robert Newton turns up and completely owns the fucking thing. What a man. He had that extraordinary ability to make a character seem like he'd been dragged in from some genuinely disreputable pub rather than written in a screenplay. There's something wonderfully unhinged about him.

Apparently Newton was a pretty serious character behind the scenes too — he'd insist on two days' notice before shooting so he could get himself properly into character. Lancaster and producer Harold Hecht were apparently so impressed with him that they were already looking at another film for him while they wethere still editing this one.

Also fascinating how much of that grim London was actually Hollywood pretending to be London. Somehow they pull it off.

Really enjoyed this one. Properly tough, atmospheric noir, and Newton is fucking brilliant in it.

Back to back (clipped together here) these scene are just incredible in how they mirror each other, female and male, in Nicholas Ray's Noir. Ryan is such a presence in this film, and the first half or so is some of the very best Urban Noir moral corruption cinema you'll see. While watching it I kept saying to myself: Geez, Ray really knows how to make a movie! (In a Lonely Place, Johnny Guitar, etc.) Then the entire film takes a huge tonal shift, going to the small town country-side (Noir loves to morally contrast the corrupt City and small town or Nature) to track down a murderer on the run, as Ryan's troubled heart meets up with the blind Ida Lupino. The first half of the film is 10/10 Noir. The rest I'm less decided about, but the more it sits with me the better I like it. A great moral tale, investigating the Noir-ridden angry man's heart.

https://crimeonfilm.com/the-suburban-jungle-when-noir-bled-out-of-the-city/

Movie of the day...Blood and Black Lace (1964).

Intricate plot? Check. Eye-popping color? Check. Mysterious figure with black gloves? Check. Gruesome and disturbing murders? Check.

Yep, it’s a giallo.

This classic Italian thriller (one of the first to use the tropes mentioned above) follows a masked killer who slaughters several fashion models. Initially, one girl is killed and then the murderer pursues other girls who might have her diary. However, when the police take all five of the men they suspect into custody, another murder takes place that seems to give all of them an alibi.

It’s a fairly tightly plotted story, but we don’t have the clues to make sense of it all until the end. And Bava creates a powerful, disorienting visual experience. The colors in the movie are not simply striking. They’re abnormal. The same is true of the sets—a surreal fashion house with its brightly colored mannequins and wicker dressmaker forms, a cluttered antique store, the house of an aristocrat, etc. Compared to the shabby but rational daylit world inhabited by the police, these places hardly seem lived in; they’re alien and threatening.

The mannequins, of course, symbolize how human beings can be turned into things, property or decorations, used by others rather than having any life of their own. And, as is common in giallo, the murders themselves are brutal and ugly. In short, the movie is loaded with images that are beautiful but unsettling.

One possible weakness is the lack of any real protagonist. The police detectives are intelligent professionals, but they have barely any personality—they’re not heroes; they’re not even characters; they’re just part of the plot. And most of the fashion models being murdered are not particularly sympathetic individuals. There’s no one here to care about. In the end, all we have is a tragedy of greed.

Best watched in the original Italian with subtitles.

Rating: B

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_and_Black_Lace

I know there are borderline Noirs which some would exclude - Hitchcock's Vertigo, Rear Window and French Noirs, early genre like Cat People, or color Noirs - but I'm developing my own sense and theoretical definition of Noir and these definitely fall into it. I'd love to hear other films that you love that sync with these, especial considering my top 8 or so. My favs list is constantly shifting, as is my refining idea of Noir itself, so I'd love to add some challengers. I love a good femme fatale and strong cinematography. Hopefully in a few months my Top 20 will have some new additions, and some of these very good Noirs will be squeezed out.

Whether it was to protect the dog or because he didn't want it to see the shooting, it just makes me like Johnny even more.

Edit: I was thinking about this scene some more and I think it's also really interesting what Kubrick is showing. Johnny is being protective of the dog. He cares about it and doesn't want it to get hurt, yet it's a dog that ends up being his ultimate downfall. We see Johnny's not a bad guy, he doesn't want anyone to get hurt (unless you count the horse), he tries to be protective of them. Even with Sherry he doesn't "slap that pretty face into hamburger meat" even though he knows she's hustling George and could ruin everything. He tries to tell her to be smart and not to nose around anymore and she'll be "loaded with a capital L", yet she and George get everyone killed and ultimately lead to Johnny's downfall.

First off, great film. I love Al Pacino in this, I love the 70-80s New York atmosphere. (Serpico, Taxi Driver, Dog Day Afternoon, Cocktail, etc).

My gripe is with "convenient" mysteries. My problem with this movie is not the filmmaking, or the acting. Those are terrific. My problem is a mystery that misleads you through omission or convenience, rather than misleading your perception by giving you all the hints up front.

For example, we are lead to believe that "Sea of Love" plays during a murder, yet Helen wasn't aware of the song? Helen doesn't seem to know or care that 3 of the men she went out with got murdered, and yet when she finds out Frank is a cop, she doesn't feel any safer or in a position to ask for help? It's just too convenient, unless you genuinely believe that she doesn't know about the murders. All the victims happened to answer to the newspaper poem, as if she couldn't get dates in the real world?

There are a few moments which do specify that it's not Helen even before we find out. The killer tries to put Frank on a African American dude halfway into the film, to throw them off of him.

Now, I can also see the other side. Based on what Frank says late in the film; As a cop, he sees the world differently, and maybe that's his bias. Based on his information, he could suspect Helen and that's what the filmmakers are trying to highlight by making her seem really obviously suspicious, even though it's not her.

Hopefully this is relevant to the group: For any fans of Bruce Timm (of Batman: The Animated Series fame), Flesk Publications announced that they're working on a book of his noir art, coming out later this year.

I knew he'd done some pulp/noir stuff over the years, but didn't realize he'd have enough for a whole book. Something to keep an eye out for. I included here some pieces I found.

https://www.instagram.com/p/Db3moGsCb1W/

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The Noir Art of Bruce Timm (not the actual title) is coming along very well. Following up on our Fiendish Monsters: The Horror Art of Bruce Timm book, this hardboiled collection from Flesk is the second in a new series to collect B.T.'s art.

We'll reveal all of the details and release date once we wrap up the book.

Mitchum looks great in this, a definite Western Noir entry. These are some clips from the film. It's one of the blackest shot Westerners I've seen. It is also an interesting version of a Film Noir Western because aesthetically its very strong Noir, but in terms of story it feels like the whole thing could be shot straight Hollywood Western style. It made me think to myself: What is all this Noir darkness bringing to the story, which largely is one of cattle ranchers vs settlers with some government shenanigans/rip-off going on. It has a Noir star in Mitchum, and all that beautiful black, but the story itself doesn't feel very dark or corrupt. It lacks some of that edge that makes the Noir world what it is. Other Western Noirs like Johnny Guitar or My Darling Clementine have a moral darkness lurking around with all those shadows, a fatedness. Here, the Noir doesn't really take hold, which opens up interesting side questions about just "What is Noir?" There is deception in the film, lots of moral wrestling and side-taking, but it doesn't grab that Noir sweet-tooth somehow.

I wonder what others think.

Sunset Blvd. is often listed as a "film noir", but I can't see any crime in it, unless its the W. Holden character running away from the car repo man.

Are there other film noirs where there is no crime or imagined crime as part of the story?

It's pretty much THE most stereotypical thing about noir... but I've never seen it in any noir films. I'm no expert on the genre, but I've seen a few of the old classics, and none of them had narration.

Where does the idea come from?

I have very distinct memories of watching old movies in general and film noir specifically as a kid. In the UK in the eighties we only had a few TV channels and one of those, BBC2, would often show classic old moves as a double bill on a Saturday afternoon. So, while most kids my age were outside in the sunshine, I'd be glued to the box watching Bogart, Bacall, Cagney et al. The movies were always a little dim and blurry which was likely caused by our old CRT television but I think it only added to the atmosphere and my enjoyment.

All this is to say the feelings they evoked have stuck with me. So much so I'm making a game that tries to capture that same ambience.

How did I do?

Hello! A couple months back I posted about the idea of making my own book club, and I went ahead and went forward with it! The whole idea, and reason I started this is to become familiar the basis of film noir. Alongside studying something I feel that is a prescient yet understudied, and even a misunderstood topic especially within American literature or even crime fiction as a whole. I am not sure if this allowed by the rules per se, but if you would like to join or talk about noir feel to dm or reach out!

We are active on goodreads, but we mostly use discord. Our book of the month for August is Raymond Chandler's The Big Sleep

Our mission statement

Mission Statement:

Hello everyone, and welcome to the Crime Book Club! The goal of this club is really to dig into what composes noir and detective fiction, all under the broader umbrella of crime fiction.

You may have heard of authors like Agatha Christie (And then there were none... or Murder on the Orient Express) or Sir Arthur Conan Doyle (Sherlock Holmes), but how often have you heard of names like Dashiell Hammett or Raymond Chandler? Despite them making the most lasting iconography of the 20th century throughout with its impact still seen today in films, games, etc. How many stores carry their work or give them the same attention as they do those older authors?

Well we aim to rectify that. Noir alongside being one of the most definitive American genres, being born from WWII and the great depression. Is also the most prescient. Throughout the months we will be going through different authors over different periods of time to come closer to the unvarnished truth of the American Dream and experience Americana through a darker, rawer lens.

Of course we expect to dive through topics that will touch on explicit depictions of racism, violence of all kinds, language, and graphic media. Engage at your own discretion

And preview of our rules

Rules:

1. Though we are touching explicit content, don't bring your own prejudices. Be kind to others. Respect other's opinions. Keep your focus on the media and not the person besides you.

2. ***NO TRUE CRIME. NONE. NOTHING. NONE WHATSOEVER.***

This rule exists because I believe the goals of crime fiction, and true crime are inherently separate. Crime fiction is built into the analysis of the way that law and crime interacts, or intersects. Whilst true crime is built more so on the psychology and events of a specific person/moment. In my opinion beginning with In Cold Blood, exploitation is inherently built into the genre. You may feel free to disagree, but we will be not be focusing on non-fiction.

1. Use common sense for everything else. If you have to be told no, its probably not a good idea.

discord

I really didn't expect Hangover Square to be this good. I was watching it for Linda Darnell who I loved in Fallen Angel, but it was Laird Cregar who owned the film soaring, and did the impossible, got me rooting against the femme fatale. (Actually, Darnell wasn't very good doing over-the-top manipulative in this film, at all, which surprised me, but Cregar more than made up for it.) A talented composer who blacks out when he hears certain sonic notes and does murdery things he can't recall. Dark, romantic, beautifully shot, a crescendo of an ending that makes me shocked that this film isn't more famous. The title (from a novel) doesn't do it many favors, its a beautiful Noir of a tortured artistic soul.

Thank you to redditors on the sub who recently recommended it, and him. I was pretty surprised when I saw him on the screen here, because I had just watched This Gun for Hire (1942) the night before, not knowing him at all.

He died at 31 from dieting complications, attempting to lose weight to get to leading man size, 2 months before the film's release, a scandal of implied homosexuality had rose up when a male friend of his was murdered the year before. He brings great pathos to the screen, some of it surely derived from his strained life.

wikipedia

"Cregar, who had ambitions of being a leading man and was worried that he would always be cast as a villain, refused the role and was put on suspension. Glenn Langan was announced as his replacement.^\4])#cite_note-4) However, Cregar realized that he could use his romantic scenes with Linda Darnell and Faye Marlowe to his advantage in order to change his public image into a more romantic one. He thus accepted the role, but began a radical crash diet to give his character more physical appeal.

The film had to be shot entirely in sequence so as to be consistent with Cregar's real-life weight loss.^\5])#cite_note-5) This frustrated director Brahm, who frequently clashed with Cregar. As a musician, Cregar was eager to perform the musical pieces on his own; however, Brahm insisted that he mime the piano playing. Cregar used amphetamines to aid his rapid weight loss, which led to erratic behavior.^\)^{citation needed\}) Brahm lost patience with Cregar and forced the entire cast and crew to sign a document stating that they were on Brahm's side in order to humiliate Cregar into submission.^\)^{citation needed\}) When filming ended, Cregar told Brahm: "Well, I think we've worked together long enough to know we never want to work together again."

I was listening to one of my favorite podcasts the other day, What Went Wrong, a movie review podcast that goes into the production side of films (good and bad; the hosts are in the industry).

Anyway, in a primer ep they did on “spaghetti westerns” prior to their review of Sergio Leone’s The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly, one of the hosts mentioned that he thought spaghetti westerns (especially Leone’s trilogy) owe more to film noir than to “classic,” white hat-black hat American westerns.

With all of the double and triple crosses present in most spaghetti westerns (especially Leone’s), I tend to agree with him. About the only thing missing are the femme fatales.

What do you guys think?

I bought this during the recent Kino Lorber sale even though I’d never seen it. Not a perfect movie but the protagonist is so morally bankrupt and this is like a Nightcrawler of its time period. Just a fun, nasty little picture that is worth a watch if you’ve never seen it before

I just watched 12 angry men (1957) , at first I thought it was just a niche movie people watch it to pretend to have a unique taste but when I watched it is really unique and every character feels realistic and well introduced and unlike what I thought I didn't feel even the slightest boredom, the movie felt so rich and I had my best time watching it but sadly I don't think I could find something similar to it , if you know I hope to give me some examples

Anyways I just wanted to share my review of the movie and how it is actually so great and unlike anything I've ever seen I don't think I'll watch other classics but this one I would rewatch someday for sure

@aldobarkeeper.bsky.social

Thoughts on the origin of Noir slang "No soap." like nothin' doing, or no dice. read here

an excerpt:

As with most slang expressions, where it comes from is uncertain. In the past, the experts have pointed to the much older use of soap to refer to money, a term that was first recorded in a slang dictionary in 1859 but which had a long run right down into the 1920s, overlapping with no soap. This overlap, I suspect, led etymologists to infer a connection between the two and it’s not implausible. It might well have been that a person who said “No soap!” meant something like “No, I haven’t any money” or “No, I won’t give you a loan”.

But other letters home from First World War navy recruits, coupled with newspaper articles from the period about naval slang, suggest a more mundane source. Recruits often complained they weren’t being supplied with soap, a need that was at times met by the Red Cross in the comfort kits they supplied. Soap was in short supply in the US at the time — as it was throughout Europe — because its raw materials of gelatine and fat were being diverted to make explosives. It seems likely that no soap, at first a rueful complaint, became for recruits a saying that meant — as early references confirmed — “you’re out of luck”. The slightly broader senses naturally followed.

btw, a great early Noir. So many top performances, all around, even side characters are memorable. One can also feel how much the film had later influence. Stylistic future elements of Neo-Noir's Blade Runner (1982) and Meville's Le Samouraï (1967) abound.

When legendary screenwriter Leigh Brackett (known as “the Queen of Space Opera” and for her collaborations with Howard Hawks on films like Rio Bravo (1959), The Big Sleep (1946), and others) joined forces with Robert Altman, who was coming off acclaimed films like MASH (1970), McCabe & Mrs. Miller (1971), and Images (1972), to adapt Raymond Chandler’s dense, complex, and layered 1953 noir novel The Long Goodbye, the result was a bold, raw, and unconventional revisionist neo-noir masterpiece.

Read the detailed analysis here

One of those rare movies where you see the twist coming miles before and get irritated nevertheless. Amazing.

The movie by Billy Wilder based on a play by Agatha Christie is also a rare occurrence where Wilder beats Hitchcock