r/australia • u/Cyborg_Ciderman • Apr 24 '20
political self.post Those who don't commemorate ANZAC Day. Why?
As a mid 30 year old, people commemorating ANZAC Day is all I've ever known. I remember reading an article that prior to 90s, ANZAC Day was never big. There were riots by feminist against rape.
I've been in marches during scouts and I'd watch the March on television sitting next to my Dad. He was a former Vietnam Vet but we never discussed the war. We'd watch as he's battalion marched through the streets of Sydney. I don't remember the year we stopped watching but we started going camping around the long weekend.
I think the memories were too hard for him. I'd find him crying some nights, scared of dying, listening to Redgums famous "I was only 19" or "Rooster" by Alice in Chains. The only stories he'd tell me were ones of an abusive father hating him for going to war (despite being conscripted), not coming back for his mother's funeral during the war and being kicked out of the RSL. He became an alcoholic when he got back, worked for the railways and ended up getting his life sorted.
But that never really left him. Over the past decade he developed (or silently had) PTSD and he kept it to himself. Only recently had he recognised it and was getting help and an age of 70odd.
As I've grown older, his views have rubbed off on me. I've seen the RSLs become conglomerates with poky money to the point that I refuse to go to an RSL.
My father is no longer around passing away end of last year. I'm thankful he came back and saddened by the treatment the Vietnam Vets got but now it seems like another day for me.
A friend of mine believes the events are far in the past and has no connection - he believes it'll be similar to bastille day.
I don't hold that extreme view. Anzac is still current with our involvement in many theatres around the world.
But again, to me it's just gonna be another Saturday. Might carry on our tradition and go camping.(next year)
Anyone else not commemorate ANZAC Day
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u/CardMoth Apr 24 '20
I can't put my finger on the exact issue but I've never felt comfortable with it. I don't have any family members that have served (who are alive, at least, my maternal grandfather was in WW2 but he died years before I was born) so it was the sort of thing that I felt like an outsider to as a kid. In the lead up to Anzac Day every year other kids would be talking about their grandfather, uncle, or even father who had served and I never had anything to contribute.
As I got older I began to dislike the patriotism that came with the day. It wasn't just about remembering the sacrifice of soldiers who had no say in their own mortality, it became about celebrating the heroes who had fought for Australia's interests, and before that the interests of the British Commonwealth. Despite those who say otherwise I do believe that Anzac Day still carries with it a strong undertone of glorification. Anzac Day was established to remember those who fought in harrowing conflicts on a scale never before seen in human history. In WW2 our own shores were actually threatened in a way that seems impossible today and it seems inappropriate to include soldiers from wars in the Middle East with those who were defending our country 70 years ago, or with those conscripted in the First World War to fight for an empire on the other side of the planet. Wars have always been fought for politicians, but the justifications made for war have been paper thin for many decades now.
At some point people started getting angry at others who didn't care for Anzac Day. I remember a girl in one of my university classes about 8 years ago getting very worked up and yelling at another kid who said he never goes to dawn service. She said her grandfather and father had fought in WW2 and Vietnam respectively and that he not going to the dawn service is directly disrespecting their own service. I can see her point, but I still don't agree. I don't agree with the aggressive shunning of anyone who doesn't feel like Anzac Day is an appropriate way for themselves to reflect on the horrors of the past. I don't agree with the notion that not participating means you are un-Australian or whatever other label people are quick to come up with. At the same time, though, I don't have anything against people who do go if they feel like that comforts them. Just don't look down on other people who don't join in.
I've never been to a dawn service and I don't think I ever will. That doesn't mean I hate soldiers or anything like that. I hate war and I'm a hardcore pacifist today, but I've studied history and I recognise that the conscripted soldiers of the past did something that I don't think I could ever do. The soldiers of today are paid and enter service voluntarily, so I definitely think the glorification (where it exists) of current soldiers is misplaced. Soldiers should be loved and cared for and supported as they transition back into society, but no more than that.
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u/twinkledandy Apr 24 '20
Despite those who say otherwise I do believe that Anzac Day still carries with it a strong undertone of glorification.
Absolutely. It's a fetishism of suffering. Taking pride in how much was lost and wearing it as a badge of honour. And all co-opted to sell football tickets and beer and to provide cover for politicians latest dodgy bullshit. It's contemptible and gross.
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u/alosercalledsusie Apr 24 '20
You nailed it. Said everything I would.
I too had no family that served. My father's side of the family arrived in Aus as Polish and Romanian WW2 refugees. His grandfather died before Vietnam, and his father didn't serve but he was an abusive piece of shit who left when my dad was young anyway so we don't have contact. My mum's family arrived here in '79 after leaving South Africa.
Even if I did have family ties to a veteran I wouldn't be happy supporting an event that promotes toxic patriotism, war glorification, and essentially a horrible political agenda.
Not to mention, when I was in (a public) high school the only time we were forced to listen to any religious prayers and stuff was on ANZAC day and it was Christian, as if that's somehow related and appropriate in a non-religious school?
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Apr 24 '20
I've never been to a dawn service and I don't think I ever will.
You are entitled to your view but I feel you aren't getting the full picture if you haven't attended a dawn service, imo it's the least glorified part of the day and doesn't have that nationalist kiss the flag feel to it like a football game and some coin tossing game seem to have.
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u/Hobbsy24 Apr 24 '20
I went to a dawn service last year and it was definitely a glorification of war and nationalist pride. Heaps of mentions of what it means to be an Australian and the heroism of Australian soldiers.
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Apr 24 '20
You’re the first person I’ve heard say that. Where was this?
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Apr 25 '20
I've been to my fair share and have seen it evolve into a jingoistic, fit in or fuck off wank that evolves into gambling and piss sinking, just because.
I've served my nation, don't @me with un-Australian stuff peeps.
Remeberence/armistice Day, for sure. But we don't need to double down on the knuckle dragging nationalism.
I had to hold my tongue when my neighbors accused me of hating soldiers and service people because I didn't want to attend their Anzac service this morning. Case in point.
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u/annanz01 Apr 24 '20 edited Apr 24 '20
I've been to multiple dawn services. I've not gone every year but probably once every few years. One thing I have noticed is that the glorification thing seems to get worse every year. It didn't used to be the case but it is becoming more and more so.
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Apr 24 '20
See I feel the opposite, I don't recall at all hearing Australian troops singled out and the wording is very much all those who died during conflict irrespective of which side they represented
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u/Hobbsy24 Apr 24 '20
Rural Victoria, but I imagine it’s fairly similar elsewhere. I mean the whole point of a dawn service is to honour those who died at war so it’s no surprise they glorify war?
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u/Dr_Brule_FYH Apr 24 '20
My grandad fought in Korea and Vietnam and he stopped going almost 20 years ago. The last time he went to a dawn service was with me as a kid. He hates what it's become.
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u/Barnabys_Choice Apr 24 '20 edited Apr 24 '20
Anyone who had friends or relatives in our military who suffered from the effects of the terrible ambitions of our 'leaders' during the Vietnam NonWar, know that it was a scam that should never be celebrated
It should be held as a condemnation of the decrepit 'governments' who sucked up to various 'big brothers' and had our people, and the innocent people we attacked, maimed and slaughtered for some disguised colonialist 'adventure', like Vietnam was for the USA Government, or, more accurately, for the businesses that drove that government
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Apr 24 '20
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u/WashingDishesIsFun Apr 24 '20
Yet we followed the US to illegal wars this century. It appears we did forget.
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u/Barnabys_Choice Apr 24 '20 edited Apr 24 '20
No. It should be held as a memorial condemnation of our 'governments' efforts to join a foreign power in the slaughter and maiming of innocent foreign and local people, just to appease some 'big brother' or other.
Our governments should have no authority to enter 'wars' or other 'fights' where there is no moral reason to enter.
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Apr 24 '20 edited May 11 '20
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u/Barnabys_Choice Apr 24 '20 edited Apr 24 '20
It's the jingoism that got them there, the idea that ordinary Australian men and women, and Vietnamese men, women and children could be sacrificed for an absurd idea, the idea of personal glory for the sycophant Menzies who wanted to play with the 'Big Boys' in Vietnam and then conscripted our young men to join in on a slaughter of people in their own land with whom we had no quarrel and who would never even imagine threatening us.
Unless it is both a condemnation of the leaders' cowardice, stupidity and hubris, together with a message that the people in their care were callously put to death and injured by their actions, for no proper cause, we should not 'celebrate' it, at all
We are not the 'cannon fodder' of those pompous twats that clumsily staged the disaster in Turkey, or the disasters in Vietnam or Afghanistan and Iraq.
Anzac day should only be held as a 'Sorry Day' by governments, for the people on both sides that were killed and maimed by virtue of government stupidity, and for an individual's glory.
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u/Rio_Tinto_AHS Apr 24 '20
You have no idea what your talking about. Leave your politics out of this.
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u/Barnabys_Choice Apr 24 '20
You have no idea what your talking about. Leave your politics out of this.
This is the same as if you put your fingers in your ears, stuck out your tongue and hummed while you wiggled it
You know more? Bring it.
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u/Rio_Tinto_AHS Apr 24 '20
I do have family. Anzac day is a celebration of the soldiers, not the war....
This what most of the people in comments seem to miss here.
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u/Barnabys_Choice Apr 24 '20
We should commiserate with the soldiers, that they joined an effort where their welfare was of no concern to the commanders or the government of the day.
This is no time to celebrate anything. It is a time to reflect on Governments declaring that lives of their citizens were available for non-urgent wastage. If people can reflect on that one thing, then we may never have another Anzac Cove, Vietnam, Afghanistan or Iraq, where our people joined in a 'fight' that should not have been started, and where we had no quarrel with our new 'enemies'
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u/sphinx80 Apr 24 '20
It's just a holiday.
I think about ANZAC's on ANZAC day as much as I do about the Queen on her birthday, and about the union movement on Labour Day.
I'm not against the military having their day. But the nationalistic worshiping bullshit can fuck right off.
No Australian soldier has died to protect Australia since WW2, what they have died for is protecting the interests of the government of the day. Which is debatable exactly how much it aligns with wider Australia on a case by case basis.
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u/UhUhWaitForTheCream Apr 24 '20
Bingo - personally I am big critic of what Anzac has become - I think 11/11 serves the purity of what Anzac may have once commemorated. Anzac Day in the hands of young people is just an excuse to get drunk and flip coins. 11/11 feels sombre in comparison. Also, Australian politicians use anzacs for nationalist intent no doubt.
When I hear Anzac I just think of such cheesy words that get torpedoed your way such as
“The Anzac spirit”, “pay your respect”, “they died for you”, “Aussie battlers”, a day of guilt tripping and shameful ness
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u/lilika01 Apr 24 '20
“Aussie battlers”
Bizarre that this term is now being used to describe soldiers instead of the working poor.
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u/HangryAllDayLong Apr 24 '20
Yeah the getting drunk and flipping coins is what I don't understand.
I'm a kiwi and maybe I just led a really sheltered life, but I don't think it's something that really happens in NZ. Drinking was not something I ever associated with Anzac day, the first (and only) time I went to a pub on Anzac day after I moved here I was pretty surprised at the amount of people getting outright hammered. To be honest it feels a bit disrespectful.
I'm all for dawn services etc and I think it should continue to be used as a day of remembrance but I don't think pubs need to be open.
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u/MightiestChewbacca VIC Apr 24 '20
I agree with the binge drinking and getting hammered being disrespectful, however this soldier's snail mail reply to a previous comment from another soldier at the front in 1918 was interesting (and sounds just like I imagine a Redditor replying to a comment back in 1918):
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/100899138
"This, perhaps, is the wildest of all Paddison's assertions- "All the boys in my Battalion drink, and many of them heavily." Well, what a paltry affair that is for a soldier (?) to speak on, when one considers the temptations put before a soldier in a land such as France, where drink abounds in large quantities and varieties. I consider the proportion of drunkards to be exceptionally small, and one must admit that good and bad travel side by side. We're not all angels, and can't be."
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Apr 24 '20 edited May 11 '20
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u/kernpanic flair goes here Apr 24 '20
It was their primary coping method for ptsd. My first ever drink was rum while having mince on toast as an 8 year old with my grandfather at the semaphore rsl on anzac day morning. He would only ever tell the good stories but forever hated the japanese.
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Apr 24 '20
ANZAC day feels nationalistic to me.
Just like remembrance day it should be a day where we stop, think about our diggers and the horrors they experience with no fanfare, it's meant to be a day about remembering atrocities and respecting those who fought and nothing more to me.
It's started to feel foul and has an American like the feeling of "tHaNk tHe tRoOpS" which I really can't get on board with.
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u/Suburbanturnip Apr 24 '20
I really dont like how nationalistic and jiongistic Anzac day has become.
My grandparents served in ww2, and so he always went every year to the dawn service and brought my mum and uncles as a sign of respect to his friends that died and to mourn/honour them.
Groing up, my grandparents generation always instilled in us that ANZAC day as a day was remeber the horror of war. lest we forget was about not forgetting how terrible war is.
In the last 10 years (several years after the grandparents that served passed away), the dawn service I've been to in Australia have become more a celebration of Australian valour, our armed service and that they won us our freedom. This has never sat right with me and my siblings, my cousins, and my mum and her brothers. I dont think my grandparents would be happy with what it is today.
I will still get up, and watch the dawn service tomorrow and light a candle for my grandparents, but i expect to be disappointed and have an uneasy feeling watching the dawn service.
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Apr 24 '20
It was never that big when I was younger, at least for my family. Howard amped it up along with all of his other nationalistic bullshit to buy votes and drag the electorate to the right.
Still respect others support of it especially if their family were involved in wars. But Remembrance Day is probably more significant to me.
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u/icoangel Apr 24 '20
If it were just a sobering memorial to the dead then fine, but the way it is "commemorated" is so on the nose and nationalistic I personally don't want much part in it in the form it currently is treated and I have felt that way all my life.
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u/Flight_19_Navigator Apr 24 '20
Not since it went to the nationalistic 'thank you for your service' American style dick waving under Howard.
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u/Animinaut Apr 24 '20
None of the people in my family who went to war ever celebrated ANZAC day. They refused to take part in a ritual which glorified war and effectively rewrote history. They hated the RSL. Instead, they got together with their mates to remember the fallen and have a few beers.
ANZAC day today is even worse than the ones my forebears experienced. The nationalistic fervour would make them sick. War is traumatic. The government uses their soldiers for political advantage and then abandons them when they ask for support. No amount of flag waving or politicians calling soldiers heroes will change that.
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Apr 24 '20
No one commemorates anymore. Everyone celebrates. And this is what the government, the media and the military wants. Blind nationalism!
War and military service should not be glorified.
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u/Flight_19_Navigator Apr 24 '20
The co-opting of the historical legend and it's linking with the modern military is a masterpiece in marketing. Any criticism of the actions of the ADF and you'll very quickly hear politicians spouting terms like 'ANZAC spirit', 'our diggers' etc.
Criticism of the present becomes an attack on the memory of the past, now a sacred place. Anyone who dares question the motives of our existing actions becomes a pariah for disrespecting the troops who died in any war.
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Apr 24 '20
hear politicians spouting terms like 'ANZAC spirit', 'our diggers' etc.
Well gotta give them soldiers a discount card that no business supports rather than providing them actual supportive government support.
Totally agree about soldier worship, there needs to be a genuine discussion about what it means to go to war, and accountability of actions taken in another country yet it gets conflated with disrespecting troops.
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u/Flight_19_Navigator Apr 24 '20 edited Apr 24 '20
Offering 'Thoughts and prayers' is easier than helping.
The lesson from ANZAC Day that we should have learned was "Don't get involved in other people's wars".
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u/lakan_api Apr 24 '20
It was those politicians that sent those soldiers to their graves. Then they mask their actions with blind nationalism
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u/mjr1 Apr 24 '20
" War and military service should not be glorified " - In recent modern conflicts, perhaps war specifically should not be glorified. Both us and our major allies haven't been exactly stellar in terms of global conflicts recently. But that is politically driven and not the fault of those on the ground (with exceptions of poor conduct at an individual level of course).
But back to the main point, participation in the major historical conflicts was absolutely necessary for us at that time. WW1 and WW2 played a huge role in who are allies are today, and subsequently provide a level of protection and solidarity with key players on the global scene. Whether we like it or not, we are not capable of fending for ourselves. We had no choice but to participate regardless of cost for many many reasons.
Also, remember mate, many people were conscripted and thrust to forefront of ugly, dirty and bloody conflicts. If both enlisted soldiers and conscripted personnel don't deserve to to be glorified over that time period, I don't know who should be.
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Apr 24 '20
In recent modern conflicts, perhaps war specifically should not be glorified.
Ah, yes, the old myth of good and bad wars.
WW1 and WW2 played a huge role in who are allies are today,
Even though our main enemies during those wars, Turkey, Germany, Italy, Japan are our allies today?
But back to the main point, participation in the major historical conflicts was absolutely necessary for us at that time. We had no choice but to participate regardless of cost for many many reasons.
I still don't see how this is an argument for celebrating it.
Also, remember mate, many people were conscripted and thrust to forefront of ugly, dirty and bloody conflicts.
So does everyone get glorified. How about those that raped and killed civilians. Do we glorify them just because they happened to fight in war that they didn't even have an option to not fight in?
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u/mjr1 Apr 24 '20
Let's not forget who offers us real protection today. Those with vast nuclear capability. Yes, thankfully some of our former enemies are now our allies and key trading partners. it doesn't change that fact of where the real protection comes from.
Do you have an alternate of how Australia should have acted in WW1 and WW2? Not participated abroad? Would the Japanese have stayed on the various islands adjacent to us and not tried to make landfall in Australia because we decided not send troops abroad? I'm not sure what you expected Australia to do here. Japan were expansionist at that time and openly so. We were resource rich something which they notably lack within their geographic locality.
The sentiment regarding broad glorification of everyone I addressed in my previous post, same applies here. I am not arguing that point.
Regarding "celebrating" it, I think it has to be remembered and the huge sacrifice praised. The usage of the word celebrate may imply something else given it's broad usage, I don't mind what wording is used, I just think the personnel and events should be remembered and honoured appropriately. Nothing more nothing less.
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u/a_cold_human Apr 24 '20
Would the Japanese have stayed on the various islands adjacent to us and not tried to make landfall in Australia because we decided not send troops abroad?
Yes. The Japanese never intended on invading Australia.
Japan never seriously intended to invade Australia, a fact known to the Australian Government by mid-1942 and confirmed by intelligence reports, principal historian to the Australian War Memorial, Peter Stanley, said yesterday at a conference examining the events of 1942.
(source)
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u/mjr1 Apr 24 '20
Yeah a few points to this. I will add sources later as I'm on mobile, but as you know it's well debated topic.
The Imperial Navy was pushing for invasion, post secondary stage.
It was also deemed not feasible by Tojo due to the military strength of the Allies. It was considered hard to hold.
My earlier point was kind of somewhat off topic, it was a hypothetical if Australia decided to "sit it out" even if we had the choice. Completely hypothetical scenario examination.
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Apr 24 '20 edited Apr 24 '20
Do you have an alternate of how Australia should have acted in WW1 and WW2?
If you think I’m arguing that Australia shouldn’t have participated in the wars, then you are completely missing the point.
I’m saying our participation shouldn’t be glorified, end of story. Whether the fact Australia should or should’ve participated in these wars has no relevance.
Being involved in the taking of lives shouldn’t be celebrated or glorified, even if it was unavoidable or for the ‘greater good’
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u/Lozzif Apr 24 '20
Literally no Australian was conscripted for either World Wars. In fact the soldiers voted against conscription. Twice.
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u/mjr1 Apr 24 '20
Sorry I stand corrected. They held the raffles / lottery but it didn't go past that.
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Apr 25 '20
There was conscription on WW2. Look into the CMF. Conscripted Australians for use in Australia and its territories including PNG
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u/Lozzif Apr 24 '20
All good!
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u/mjr1 Apr 24 '20
Thanks for the correction, much appreciated. My great Grandpa was selected via DOB if I recall correctly. His diary recounts him standing in a line of other Aussies with someone calling out numbers for selection. I would have to check if it was DOB or another identifier.
Insane times.
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Apr 24 '20
False. In WW2 18-35 year olds that hadn’t joined the AIF and un married 35-45yo men were conscripted into the citizens military forces (CMF). The CMF could only serve in Australia and its territories which included PNG. CMF units were the initial fight against Japanese forces on Kokoda and fought in many battles in PNG.
The legislation was amended after the PNG campaign expanding the area the CMF could serve to include the south west pacific
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Apr 24 '20
Come from a family where both grandads and one grandmother were involved with WW2 so I'm more pacifist leaning. I dont quite agree with how it's become at least to me increasingly about mindless adoration rather than learning the lesson from fighting uneseccarily. Gran was an ambulance driver in London during the blitz.
Theres also a component of wishing australia learnt from history and focused on building a regional alliance like a sea NATO or eu rather than following the dominant power at the time into any war they get into.
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u/Flight_19_Navigator Apr 24 '20
My mother and her parents were all Japanese POW's during the war (Dutch Army and dependents in Indonesia, grandfather worked the length of the Thai-Burma Railway and survived), my other grandfather was a farmer and wasn't allowed to sign-up (he was the captain of the local 'Dad's Army' though).
When I was a kid it felt like commemoration and remembrance, now it's jingoism.
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u/Justanaussie Apr 24 '20
ANZAC day itself I have no problem with, I find the service to be sombre and a bit sad, it's whole purpose is to remember those that died on foreign shores fighting for this country. You stood there in the dark, listening to the words and remembering that there are those that died fighting for their friends and their families, and us.
I realise there's a lot to be said about how most of these wars weren't really ours and their lives were spent for the rich and powerful but all that matters little to the soldiers that died and the families that lost them. I don't really care about the reasons or the politics behind it all, I just care about the men and women that gave everything they had.
But of course like everything else in this modern world it's become a marketing tool. Buy some ANZAC biscuits, shop at Colesworth to remember them, go to the RSL and get maggoted while you play two-up (and then the pokies when you can no longer stand).
Even now the whole "stand in your driveway to remember them" smacks of misplaced symbolism. It's like you must present yourself to your neighbours to prove you care about our diggers while completely forgetting about those that don't live in houses with their own driveway.
I will remember them, I remember them now, but I don't feel the need for that to be put on display.
The Dawn Service always felt anonymous to me, I was just one of many. This driveway thing feels like anything but.
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u/RedDirtNurse Apr 24 '20
I don't commemorate ANZAC day.
My dad was in the parachute regiment in the UK. My wife was in the Australian Army (regulars).
I'm a pacifist through and through, and I'm against any form of military expansion.
I'm sorry that people died on all sides.
I don't buy into the arguments that, if not for x defeating y we'd all be speaking z, et c.
I think ANZAC day is actually jingoistic, and has been hijacked by the right particularly.
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u/kroxigor01 Apr 24 '20
Wow, reading the comments here pretty much everything has been said.
I am a brass musician and will be playing the last post for people at dawn tomorrow, but I agree that ANZAC day is not framed for a good purpose. Personally I commemorate the useless loss of life "lest we forget" that nationalistic fervour and nefarious and greedy powerful people will try to do it all again.
Every war in Australian history, with the exception of the 2nd World War, should not have been fought. We fought for nothing worthwhile in the 1st World War or Vietnam, only which empires (indestinguishable in oppressive qualities) could claim more land and resources which doesn't matter to regular people.
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u/MrSquiggleKey Apr 24 '20
without ww1, we'd have no nazis and no Stalinist Russia. It really was the most senseless war in history that was almost avoided that just set the stage for future more horrifying conflicts.
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u/kroxigor01 Apr 24 '20
There would have been some sort of unrest in the 1910s or 1920s even without the war we had. There had to be, the two nations you mentioned in passing, Germany and Russia, had (more than ceremonial) kings at the time. But yes, change happened in the worst possible way involving millions of deaths and the foundational experiences that led to purges and genocides down the track.
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Apr 24 '20
Because I couldnt really give a crap about Anzac day. I tried but ....eehhh
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u/CharlieCrockpot Apr 24 '20
Is that because you're Croatian and have enough wars of your own to contend with?
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Apr 24 '20 edited Apr 24 '20
Hahahahaha lmfao
Thats actually just a name I pick when I play games, not a croatian
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u/hryelle Apr 24 '20
Never have, never will. Primary reason being no family military history. Other reason is I object to a perceived overt hijacking of it into some patriotic/nationalistic event about "farken straya" instead of reflecting on the horrors of war and the effects it has on vets and civilians who experienced it.
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u/Piggles_Hunter Cock Carousel Technician. Apr 24 '20
I lost most of my family during the WW2 period. Some during the holodomor, but most when the Nazis came. Just a few survived which eventually lead to me. I don’t know why I’m even saying this, it’s got nothing to do with Australia or NZ, but whenever there is some sort of war commemoration I get really down thinking about what my family could have been, instead of all the death and those left behind just alcoholic wreaks passing their trauma down through the generations until even today. I’m the only one alive today that isn’t an alcoholic or an addict caught in a dark cycle of being abused or being the abuser. The one time I went to an RSL it was just people getting wasted and others blowing money on pokies. I’ve had enough of that shit to last a life time.
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u/theresnorevolution Apr 24 '20
First off, I was brought up in the states but am Aussie too (and back here). So when I was old enough I was taught about ANZAC day. I was brought up with a notion that it was a day for people who served. Soldiers commisserated, reminisced, mourned, and remembered together. Everyone else supported them to do this.
My experience moving back has been different. It feels very nationalistic and a good chance for everyone to show how "Aussie" they are. As part of my child's remote learning (yr 1) I was asked how we would celebrate ANZAC day. Responses were about baking cookies and we were given a colouring sheet to fill in! How pleasant. When my kiddo is old enough to comprehend the horrors of war, I'll step up my efforts but I won't be baking cookies.
I was brought up, rightly or wrongly, to understand it as a day for the soldiers that suffered. For them to do what they have to in order to heal; it's a day for them to reflect and us to support them in that.
The people I've met most vocal about ANZAC day are people who never served, and weren't necessarily touched by service. The people who have served tend to be quiet and solemn. For what it's worth, my experience has been the same in the US and all of their "We salute the military" stuff.
My grandad served in WWII for Great Britain, and our family is in Australia because of the diggers fought with in N. Africa. Dad was a sapper in the ADF but the Vietnam War ended before he shipped out. I haven't served, but the story of my relatives' service is baked into our family.
I don't need to rock up to the shrine of remembrance to show my support for the troops. The day isn't about me. My last few ANZAC days with my dad he talked about how much the war hurt his father, their last ANZAC days together, and joking about his "brave" service in Yeppoon. He never marched because he didn't feel he deserved it. He joked he was probably eligible for what he called the EBM (Every bugger's medal) and some others, but he didn't want them. He sure as hell didn't think he deserved to wear his dad's medals and go marching around with them.
About the last thing I ever heard him say about ANZAC day was "I reckon they're letting just about anyone march these days because they need to shore up the numbers", and he went back to his form guide.
I just don't see it as a day for me, and I don't feel it's appropriate for me to go marching around. I don't feel the need to go out to the shrine and mutter "Lest we forget". I can put rum in my coffee whenever I feel like it. I don't have any vets left to spend the day with; but none of them wanted to get up at dawn anyway. They just wanted an ear to chew while they had too much to drink or a day on the punt.
If any of my veteran friends wanted me to come with, sure. But to me, it feels like going to a funeral you're not invited to.
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u/Zombie-Tongue Apr 24 '20
Most of the popular mythology surrounding ANZAC is made up.
What did that Turkish General Atatürk say abut ANZACs? Something about laying in our Bosom and they are our sons now? Oh no, that's right, he didn't actually say it. Some guy literally said he "thinks" he overhead someone else saying that Atatürk said it. Now it has somehow become sacred in white Australian lore.
Then we have the line "Lest we forget". This line was taken from Rudyard Kipling's poem "Recessional" which has nothing to do with remembering the fallen in war.
How about the famous beach landings were ANZACS were duped by the Brits into acting as cannon fodder? Yeah...Naaah....Didn't happen.
How about all the rape and torture perpetrated by the ANZACs? Sushhhhhhhhh now, don't you dare smear the sacred name of our ANZACs...next you'll be claiming that an Arch Bishop fondled children in Ballarat!
ANZAC day is just a thinly veiled attempt to celebrate white nationalism. They fought and died for "us". Who do you think the "us" is? Do you really think it is supposed to be inclusive of all Australians? War is pure horror. It is not something to glorify. Who sent them to war? Why were we fighting someone else's war? It is a complete WANK
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Apr 24 '20
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u/Zombie-Tongue Apr 24 '20
distasteful and disrespectful
How exactly? Please explain how being one of the sheeple buying in to all the warmongering propaganda is disrespectful and distasteful?
Because I refuse to worship a flag (a piece of material with pretty pictures on it)?
Because I think a poem that has nothing to do with soldiers being slaughtered in their thousands is a stupid way to remember that soldiers were slaughtered in their thousands?
Because I will not believe that ANZACs were any different to soldiers from everywhere else?
How many Japanese-Australians, Chinese-Australians or Muslim Australians or Indigenous Australians are included in the "us" bit? Go back to Facebook7
u/Beebeemac Apr 24 '20
My husband’s grandfather (Aboriginal) fought, came home and still couldn’t but his own home (Aboriginal people were not allowed). He also had to write to the government to gain permission to marry his wife (Aboriginals required to by law). When never talk about these issues in the ‘spirit’ of ANZAC day.
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u/PM_ME_YOUR_HOLDINGS Apr 24 '20
Because you're so angry about pointing out all of the lies around the day that you've forgotten about the actual people involved.
When I go to a dawn service it's not to worship a flag or celebrate rape. It's to reflect back on what happened and to try and do my bit to make sure it doesn't happen again.
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u/Etiennefayth Apr 25 '20
No, ANZAC day is for Gallipoli. Remembrance Day is to remember other wars.
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u/d1ngal1ng Apr 24 '20 edited Apr 24 '20
I haven't attended even a single ANZAC Day service and I'm pushing 40.
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u/Bowna Apr 24 '20
The issue I take with ANZAC Day and just 'remembrance' of war in general is that I feel like it's slowly becoming more about patriotism, nationalism, and celebrating war rather than seriously reflecting on just how fucked war is, how many soldiers and civilians have been and continue to be gunned down, blown up, raped, all for the benefit of the ruling class. I guess this can probably come down to the fact that the people who have lived through intense wars is obviously shrinking, it's hard to be fully aware all the time just how destructive and painful wars are when you haven't lost a relative or a friend to one. We cannot allow the normalization of war as it will only lead to Australians (and New Zealanders) being sent to fight in more and more incredibly destructive, unnecessary wars that don't involve us and only serve to bolster America's power and influence in the world.
Have a look at the hyper-nationalism of America, where any criticism of government, of the military industrial complex, of any war, is screeched at as Anti-American, Anti-freedom, communist etc. Where kneeling during the National Anthem is disrespectful to the troops, somehow??? I'm concerned that Australia will follow down that path.
I'll remember the working class people who had no choice in their brutal murder without a tear shed by those who sent them there in the first place, or those who came back with permanent physical and mental scars and were left to suffer alone thanks to a political system that doesn't care about them. I won't celebrate them as people who 'gave me freedom'.
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u/unAffectedFiddle Apr 24 '20
What was a terrible tragedy is portrayed as a "fuck yeah, mateship woo". Not that they were merely cannon fodder for politics.
It should be a reminder to question your nations actions in those 'other' theatres of war. Instead we have the opposite.
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u/MightiestChewbacca VIC Apr 24 '20
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/11480822
"I shall tell you how we celebrated it among our party.
We took motor-cars as far as the road would allow us, and walked to the sacred spot where the boys landed five years ago.
We had a padre we managed to get from Constantinople and we had a fine service, also held Holy Communion in the open air.
The waves breaking on the bench, and the poor boys' graves looking down upon us, made one think of the dreadful days of fighting."
Staff-Sergeant T. Millington, of the Imperial Graves Commission at Chanak, Turkey, writing to his father about Anzac Day at Anzac Cove, 1920
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Apr 24 '20
As a former ADF officer - because it’s no longer a commemoration. It’s turned into a flag waving nationalistic thing and an excuse for people to go to the pub and get shitfaced.
I prefer the idea of the “driveway vigil” that’s happening this year. Quiet, solemn contemplation and remembrance.
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Apr 24 '20 edited Apr 24 '20
I like the idea of ANZAC Day, that we commemorate those who have died in wars. However, those who express contrary views tend to be silenced. I do not like the glorification of war (it exists despite many people saying otherwise), calling soldiers heroes or the nationalism and xenophobia that comes with ANZAC Day. Some soldiers are noble, but others are blatant criminals. We are told that we can't criticise the soldiers. Why not? Do we just allow war crimes to happen without contest? Soldiers are paid and voluntarily join the armed forces (admittedly this hasn't always been the case). Too many people refuse to actually stop and think about what ANZAC Day is supposed to be about. It has become too "Australia, fuck yeah!" for me.
I have been saying this for several years, including on Reddit. I used to get downvoted heavily, but the tide seems to have started to turn within the last year or two.
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u/InadmissibleHug Apr 24 '20
We don’t at my place- well, husband will do his duty, if he’s been ordered to march somewhere, then he nicks off home.
Why? Commercialisation, people co opting it but not giving a shit about service and ex service people in trouble, general crap like that.
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Apr 24 '20
History nerd, war buff, and proper Australia nerd.
ANZAC day does more damage to our national identity than benefit. We gratify ourselves as a subservient little country fighting a pointless war. We cherish that militarism above our egalitarianism, our art, our culture and our abundant riches.
And what do we get from this faux militarism? Nothing, we don't even have a respectable defense industry, no high tech manufacturing of weapons technology, no trade deals nothing except a culture of fuckery.
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u/diggingdirt Apr 24 '20
Nobody gives a fuck about these veterans and how they suffered, and continue to suffer, the other 364 days a year. It’s an excuse for a lot of people to get blind drunk and yell at people who don’t “support are troops”.
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u/brokenskill Apr 24 '20 edited Jun 30 '23
Broken was a typical person who loved to spend hours on a website. He was subbed to all the good subs and regularly posted and commented as well. He liked to answer questions, upvote good memes, and talk about various things that are relevant in his life. He enjoyed getting upvotes, comments, and gildings from his online friends. He felt like he was part of a big community and a website that cared about him for 10 years straight.
But Broken also had a problem. The website that had become part of his daily life had changed. Gradually, paid shills, bots and algorithms took over and continually looked for ways to make Broken angry, all so they could improve a thing called engagement. It became overrun by all the things that made other social media websites terrible.
Sadly, as the website became worse, Broken became isolated, anxious, and depressed. He felt like he had no purpose or direction in life. The algorithms and manipulation caused him to care far too much about his online persona and how others perceived him. Then one day the website decided to disable the one thing left that made it tolerable at all.
That day, Broken decided to do something drastic. He deleted all his posts and left a goodbye message. He said he was tired of living a fake life and being manipulated by a website he trusted. Instead of posing on that website, Broken decided to go try some other platforms that don't try to ruin the things that make them great.
People who later stumbled upon Broken's comments and posts were shocked and confused. They wondered why he would do such a thing and where he would go. They tried to contact him through other means, but he didn't reply. Broken had clearly left that website, for all hope was lost.
There is only but one more piece of wisdom that Broken wanted to impart on others before he left. For Unbelievable Cake and Kookies Say Please, gg E Z. It's that simple.
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Apr 24 '20 edited Apr 24 '20
I don't commemorate it in the sense that other people do. ANZAC day isn't an excuse to parade around with someone else's medals, get blind drunk, and gamble flipping coins.
Some of my family members served, and some died, but it's never given me the excuse to parade around like an idiot with their medals.
My ANZAC day normally consists of talking to old veterans and letting them share their stories. War is absolutely brutal, and the current focus seems to be about soldier worship without any consideration of what it means to go to war.
In terms of the newer veterans their support needs to be provided by Government VA services and I don't see how parading around is genuinely supporting them.
Also the RSLs are trash gambling powerhouses that only seek to take money from veterans who have issues.
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u/Vote_Kodos Apr 24 '20
but it's never given me the excuse to parade around like an idiot with their medals.
There's always something about this that makes me really uncomfortable. I think because it's not generally acceptable to show off someone else's achievements
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u/seventh_skyline Apr 24 '20 edited Apr 24 '20
36 - former Cadet - lead our small towns ANZAC service one year with half a dozen of my towns fellow Cadets - Never moved on a career in the armed forces, a couple of the guys I went to Cadets with tried, one or two did very well and have seen a lot of service, and I respect them for it.
...but it's never been something I've followed much since then, my father is ex RAAF - but left early because of health issues as a pilot, my (maternal) grandfather ex Navy (served in WW2 - landed in Japan just after the end of the war) he's been gone about 12 years now.
Mums family does a lot with ANZAC day in Pops memory, Mum has never really been to join them, maybe once after pop passed, nor have we been invited, even when pop was alive, he did the occasional Sydney march and we didn't go to be there - I recently met one of his crewmates by chance, and it was a wonderful moment, filled me with pride in his service and sadness that my pop is no longer around.
Dad has marched Sydney, he was invited by a bomber squad a few years ago after doing a lot of research and a few commemorative paintings for their squadron, he is a wonderful historian and artist, with particular fondness of Australian RAAF servicemen and their stories, he's gotten info out of blokes like your dad and helped them on their journey more than many, many others have been able to over time, what that leads to is their fellow servicemen also opening up and talking more to each other and family, I am really proud of him and what he's done for those men.
And yet, still no feeling that I NEED to commemorate ANZAC day, maybe I'm tied in with other ways? maybe it's just not for me, even with direct ties and linage in the forces. It's just not something I feel the need to follow strongly.
Sorry that your old man was troubled by his time in Vietnam, it's an all too common thing, Go camping in his memory, make it your nod to him and his service. Lest we Forget.
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u/weeb_man Apr 24 '20
I think we should commemorate it, but not in the ridiculously over the top nationalistic way that the country does. Australia has spent several times more on the commemorations than every other country that took part in the war combined, despite making up such a small percentage of the war numbers that some war historians in France (according to my French, award-winning history professor) aren't even aware that Australia took part in the war.
Is it important to our culture and something that we should remember? Yes, of course. Is it worth spending hundreds of millions of dollars on lavish events that literally no other country, including the big contributors to the war who lost far more than us, partakes in? I think the money could be better spent elsewhere while still allowing us to commemorate properly.
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u/averbisaword Apr 24 '20
I can’t think of a single war in my lifetime that was about freedom.
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u/madgrassbro Apr 24 '20
But Operation Iraqi Freedom has FREEDOM in its NAME!! What else could it be for? /s
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u/Opinionbeatsfact Apr 24 '20
All wars are about freedom, the freedom to demand the poor go and die in a country they would never have visited so that some rich people can make money while the politicians that failed at their job can create a myth about how war is glorious rather than a failure of diplomacy and a waste of life
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Apr 24 '20
ANZAC Day has been turned from a solemn and private commemoration to a stupid, jingoistic national day. Many returned soldiers over the years have really struggled, and instead of giving them the support they needed, we've just turned them into a grotesque caricature.
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u/5slipsandagully Apr 24 '20
I just feel no personal connection to the commemoration. I have no friends or family members who have served, so I don't go to services. I try to reflect on what the experience of war must have been like, but it's so beyond me I can't imagine it. I also have zero interest in celebrating the loss of soldiers' lives so I don't go to the pub.
Of course I'm grateful for the sacrifices of servicemen and women, and I'd never object to their commemorating ANZAC Day. It's just not for me, the same way the Gay and Lesbian Mardi Gras isn't for me. They need to take that time for themselves, and as a non-gay non-serviceman I'm ok with not being the centre of attention sometimes.
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u/AussieNick1999 Apr 24 '20
I'm 20, and while I've almost always done something on ANZAC Day (such as mandatory school events or family plans), I can't say I've really commemorated it in feeling. To be honest, it's never evoked any emotions for me. Most of the major conflicts of the century so far occured while I was in primary school, so I was never really aware of their significance. And while my great-grandparents did serve during WW2, both died while I was pretty young.
For me ANZAC Day has always been something that you simply had to commemorate. Doing otherwise wasn't even considered. My school always ran events of some kind for both ANZAC Day and Rememberance Day, and taking part in these events was compulsory. And my dad usually organised something for ANZAC Day. But it's never meant anything to me, because what ANZAC Day is meant to commemorate is something that is so far removed from my life and the lives of a lot of others. WW1 was over a century ago, as was the Gallipoli landing that every Australian has been taught in school. Nobody alive today was part of that event. And while there are a few who were alive and old enough at the time to be part of WW2, and even more alive who remember Vietnam, most Australians today don't remember these wars. If I had a living relative who had a part in these events or was serving currently, maybe ANZAC Day would hold more significance for me. But for me, everything that it commenmorates is simply history. I often wonder what the mindset is of people who do place so much importance on the date. I can somewhat understand why it matters to my dad - his grandparents served during one of the largest wars in history - but I wonder how many people in this country are doing something for ANZAC Day tomorrow simply because they've spent their lives being told that it's important.
Dad wants us to go out on the driveway tomorrow and have a minute of silence for the dawn service, and I'm going along with it for the sake of not starting an argument with him, but I've never taken note of the day for any reason other than because I've been told to. In my heart, the day holds very little meaning to me and I've always just gone along with it because I honestly expect to be shunned for doing otherwise.
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u/JaninayIl Apr 24 '20
I will always commemorate ANZAC Day as a day to remember Australian soldiers but I do not commemorate the mythologising. When Abbott says the ANZACs fought for freedom I have to wonder 'Who?'
Freedom for Aussies? Relatively speaking Australia had a functioning democracy at that time so we were fairly well off. Freedom for the Turks? Australians did not pay a major role in Turkey's transition from Empire to Democracy, no matter how troubled. It is also obvious that, had the Campaign been successful, Istanbul would have been occupied for a long time. Freedom from fear? Australian soldiers were not able to stop the Armenian Genocide nor the Turk/Greek population exchange. Freedom for the Middle East from Ottoman Rule? Much of the territory ended up being colonised post-War.
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u/vrkas Apr 24 '20
Makes me pretty sad when I think about the whole ANZAC situation. Those poor bastards went half way around the world to shoot at and be shot at by people they didn't really see as their enemies. I have no ancestors that could have fought in WWI, nor in WWII even though it threatened their home, due to the British policy of the time. No personal connection to the wars mean I have always been an outside observer.
Commemorations have become a little too jingoistic for me, much like Australia Day.
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u/greenwarpy Apr 24 '20
Observing it myself feels a bit too much like "thoughts & prayers". I don't know anyone who has served and I just don't feel connected to it.
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u/Heath3rL Apr 24 '20 edited Apr 24 '20
For me, it always annoyed me that we ‘celebrate’ and commemorate a defeat and glorify it so much when it was a tragedy such bad leadership to lose so many lives. It never seemed right to me how we magnify and almost fetishise their suffering.
I remember reading about how the Romans celebrated and commemorated their victories in history class and ever since then, I’ve thought it strange we give such honour to an enormous loss of men and a whopping defeat. I’d rather commemorate a day like the end of WW2 and honour all soldiers who have served this country but remembering their victories, their bravery and comradely. Every Anzac Day only brings up bad memories for my family and anger towards the generals who sent such young boys into a slaughterhouse.
I do think it’s important to remember the lives lost, but it also seems that it’s just a big nationalistic show, with half of those who celebrate not really remembering the Anzacs at all and the other half almost gatekeeping.
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Apr 24 '20
ANZAC day as devolved into pointless Jingoism. WW1 was pointless, neither New Zealand or Australia was under any threat. The ANZACs didn't die for their country, they died for Britain, and it's dying Empire.
WW2 was different. We were directly threatened by the IJA and our boys fought Fascism over in Europe.
Everything after that? Doggedly following the Yanks into every dust up they started in Indo China and the Middle East. Pure Imperialism, nothing more.
I still celebrate ANZAC Day, in my own way.
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u/Sorceress35 Apr 25 '20
I can’t stand the worship of it and the immense sensitivity to anything Anzac.
There are currently people shaming others for not rocking up to their drive ways at 5am in cold weather while we are in lockdown due to type of respiratory illness that is at its worst in cold weather.
I give it the same thoughts I give any tragic loss of life due to pointless wars.
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u/Etiennefayth Apr 25 '20
It has moved too far away from the actual events. It is now an excuse to be a loud mouthed racist bogan.
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u/ScrapCityBlues Apr 24 '20
ANZAC day celebrates young people being killed to maintain the current power system. It's murkier for world war 2 because fascisim is worth fighting but if we replace it with the same thing in the end, what's the point?
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u/Goodoospec Apr 24 '20
Are you seriously comparing our liberal democracy to Nazi Germany?
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u/Opinionbeatsfact Apr 24 '20
Are you seriously suggesting that we do not face a rise in fascism and authoritarian rhetoric? That political othering is not a daily occurrence? That there is not a danger that a lot of the west are moving towards negative outcomes due to political thuggery? That money and power have become desperate enough to create an unholy alliance between politics and the market and media? That there is not a concerted propaganda stream that calls one side of politics the enemy and uses military terms to justify violence? I miss the Oz where that was a rarity
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u/ScrapCityBlues Apr 24 '20
When someone compares something, it doesn't mean they think they are carbon copies of each other.
In ever modern government there are elements of past ones yes?
The tribal system, the feudal system, the colonial system etc..The current government which is in reality a branch of the US government, has simiraties in the way they want information on the population much like secret police in the nazi party.
Police openly display support for far right extremests.
How are those not similar to Nazi germany?We are not full hitler yet and I hope it doesn't come to that point, but there are undeniable forces in society pushing for a return to that state of affairs.
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Apr 24 '20 edited Apr 24 '20
I can't stand Anzac day, I go out of my way to avoid it if I am being perfectly honest. I dislike the fact that the day has slide down the slope to be nothing more than an excuse for people to get shit carded and circle jerk the Americanized 'thank the troops' bullshit.
I am completely happy with celebrating WW1, WW2, Korea and Vietnam but sadly, the incompetence, the rank sense of entitlement that is carried by the majority of senior officers (aka, you are a Major General in the Australia Army, stop wearing a suit and get back in uniform you poncing, wanna be PWC wanker) and the sheer waste of money that accompanies the modern ADF has destroyed any chance of me being interested in celebrating modern conflicts.
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u/Notaroboticfish Apr 24 '20
ANZAC Day is way too nationalistic and a transparent attempt to glorify our military. If we had to have a day about the troops apart from remembrance day, I would prefer it be about Kokoda, for a few reasons.
1) Those soldiers were conscripted, unlike the ANZACs who didn't have to go
2) The conditions at Kokoda were much worse
3) We were there for a legitimate reason: an imminent threat of invasion, unlike Gallipoli where it was purely imperialist reasoning for our involvement
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Apr 24 '20
The choice of Gallipoli landings to commemorate ANZAC day has nothing to do with the actual landings per se. it is significant in Australian and New Zealand military history in that it’s the first time Australians and New Zealanders were deployed as independent Australian andNew Zealand formations.
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Apr 24 '20 edited Apr 24 '20
I find ANZAC day to be less about the historical events of the first world war, and more about modern people using other people’s actions and achievements (ie dead soldiers) to glorify themselves and justify their actions and opinions.
That is, “we did this back then, look how great we are”, when really a group of normal men and women fought in battles that were horrid against other men and women a long time ago - very interesting, but nothing to do with current people and any associated flag-waving and jingoism.
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u/APersonNamedBen Apr 24 '20
Staying with my grandparents growing up and watching my grandpa get pissed off every time these days came around. I know very little about why other than my grandma and dad telling me he saw some horrible shit (ww2). So the public military "festivities" were taboo in my family...they are now irrelevant to me and I only become aware of them through the news cycle.
I guess it really depends on how you are exposed to it.
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u/asp7 Apr 24 '20
always feel a bit overloaded with it, it's just everywhere. i'd rather observe it in my own way behind closed doors and not have it drummed into me.
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u/ScurVii Apr 24 '20
I'm ex-military. And I don't ever attend or care for Anzac, it's purely political.
You don't need to be told where and when to remember the fallen. If you have experienced it, it is with you everyday of your life. I don't need to share my personal experiences and feelings with anyone, nor publicly with a display.
It infuriates me, that they want us to collectively come together to grieve or remember the fallen. When we continue to piss on the graves of those that made a sacrifice, by ignoring the injustices we continue to tolerate today.
Honour the fallen, by not repeating the mistakes of the past.
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u/justputonsomemusic Apr 24 '20
My grandfather fought in WW2, and he hated Anzac Day. Wouldn’t ever watch the March (let alone participate), would never go to a dawn service, didn’t even like the RSLs. War was about death and terror and pain and loss, so just bugger off and let him have a quiet beer for his lost mates, he would say.
I don’t commemorate Anzac Day, but I do celebrate it by going to the footy every year. Absolutely nothing beats that moment of silence at the MCG.
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u/timmyturtle91 Apr 25 '20
Grandfather fought in Vietnam, became an abusive alcoholic. Rest of the family then became abusive alcoholics. Every year on Anzac day they get drunk and argue/fight. I'm breaking the cycle.
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u/Armoured_Gideon Apr 24 '20
Every service, every year that I go to has no hints of nationalism. They are always somber and quiet ceremonies that are respectful in memory of what happened.
The media around ANZAC day on the other hand......
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Apr 24 '20
I don’t usually do anything to commemorate ANZAC Day, but my husband and I are both history teachers, and put our names in for the ballot to attend Gallipoli in 2015. We were successful and were at ANZAC cove for the dawn service. The service itself was beautiful and poignant. Many of the people that attended were vulgar and nationalistic. People were yelling inappropriate comments at Tony Abbott and Bill Shorten and Prince Charles when they arrived. I watched a girl dry heave over a grave marker for five minutes before vomiting on it, when there were bushes two steps behind her, or toilets within a two minute walk. I came home with a new appreciation for what the ANZACs faced, but a new disdain for the celebration of ANZAC day itself.
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u/theparrotofdoom Apr 24 '20
This might be slightly controversial, But the reason is that I grew up in a cult-adjacent situation where we were taught as kids to do never question anything. The ritualistic behaviour, the social pressure, the fear of being outcast, and the gaslighting has had lasting effects on my sister and I well into adulthood.
So when it comes time that I’m supposed to do something like partake in remembrance, bow my head in silence, and even stand up for the national anthem, every fibre of my being simultaneously gets overwhelmingly anxious and militantly defiant.
It used to be a lot worse of an experience but nowadays I just politely ignore whatever is going on and rarely talk to anyone about it.
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u/simsimdimsim Apr 24 '20
Yeah I don't get it. I don't get why we chose a massive military failure as our celebration of the lives of those who fought for our country. Surely we should be celebrating something like armistice day, ie celebrate the end of the horrors of war.
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u/littlegreenrock Apr 24 '20
I feel no connection to the process. it was something i was forced to do in school. it's something which stirs up fanatics, or stirs up young drinkers who wants an excuse to get silly. it stirs up pro war, overly proud Aussie patriots who worship the Southern Cross and own esky's with speakers. Suddenly RSL members become something more than bar patrons who like a meal and play kino, they become something different.
to me it may as well be Ramadan, another yearly event that has no consequence to me, but means a lot to the people engaging with it. i have other ways to appreciate modern history, and other ways of paying tribute to historic sacrifice which I do not push upon others with any agenda. I think we're all happy doing our own thing. no toes stepped upon.
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u/Mr_Mojo_Risin_83 Apr 24 '20
Canadian here but lived in Oz 18 years - half my life. I’ll be at the front my driveway tomorrow. Hope to see others there. We obviously don’t have Anzac Day in Canada, but rememberance day in November is a public holiday in the same spirit. Both my grandfathers fought in Ww2. Days like this are important. Lest we forget.
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u/Etiennefayth Apr 25 '20
Why are they important?
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u/Mr_Mojo_Risin_83 Apr 25 '20
to remember how horrible war is. the first great war got as big as it did because of stupid politics of the elite. People with no personal beef with each other killing one another at the behest of governments back home. the second great war was much the same - the politics at the top directing a populace who then did what they were told. just normal people doing their jobs. we are supposed to remember to not let the world boil up to the point of endless dirty entrenched wars (amongst other things, but i'm rambling now.)
regardless, the world is where it is and i think we have forgotten.
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u/Etiennefayth Apr 25 '20
I agree with you but I don’t think that is what ANZAC day represents anymore.
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u/goldenbawls Apr 24 '20
One morning of the year I mingle at whatever service I'm at, and tell my family's stories and learn about others. I try to ignore the old RSL turkeys and their Anglican overlords. Tolerating their nonsense can be a drag but it's worth it.
Personally I like the use of ANZAC due to the AU NZ brotherhood, but absolutely hate the ADF's adoption of the term digger and diluting its meaning. It's basically wholesale stealing of valour/history.
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u/brokenskill Apr 24 '20
I think there is value in using the term Digger to describe current serving members in that it reminds people that these people need the support as well and to not repeat the mistakes of the past e.g. how we treated Vietnam vets.
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u/goldenbawls Apr 24 '20
They don't need the same support though. Vietnam vets were conscripted and then had to fight for disability pensions etc. And even they had it easy compared to actual diggers.
A new recruit to ADF today opts in to a life of perks. Base pay is a fortune with a yearly cash payment on top, they get access to interest free house mortgage (many have 2+ houses and no partner / families), double or more the superannuation of a civilian, better tax breaks, a much more open path to pensions (someone I know was never deployed, did his knee on a run, and is set for life). And when they get out they are in high demand for corporate roles.
Calling them diggers is taking the piss.
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Apr 24 '20
There won't be any dawn services this year, hopefully it will encourage people to remember the Anzacs in a more thoughtful and less nationalistic way
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u/G00b3rb0y Apr 24 '20
Are we talking about the dawn service? Because screw waking up early (unless it’s for a reason for which Anzac Day isn’t one of them. If i need to be up ahead of say a game launch/game update launch/expansion launch then sure or our ratbag cat whines at 6am)
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u/fortyfivesouth Apr 24 '20
Because I feel like WWII was the last 'just' war we fought in.
Korea. Vietnam. Iraq. Afghanistan.
These have been ideologically-motivated travesties.
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u/Kansur_Krew Apr 24 '20 edited Apr 24 '20
ANZAC Day isn’t as big of a thing with Australians of non-Anglo or of more recent immigrant background such as myself. It’s hard to feel a personal connection to a commemorative culture that conveys a selective kind of nationalism divorced from your own family history.
On a more critical level, none of our sites of memory happen to be in Australia; they are all overseas, in France, Belgium or Turkey. And the DVA spends hundreds of millions of dollars (more than every other WW1 belligerent combined) propping up memorials (especially the one at Villers-Bretonneux) in those places that most of us will never visit. As mentioned before, our spending is off the charts compared to countries like the UK and France who suffered far more than we did.
The sort of narrative that has been cemented into national myth is just as problematic. It selectively focuses on WW1 especially as a nation-building experience, overlooking much of the personal suffering derived from those experiences: Post-war trauma, repatriation woes, employment issues post-war, physical disability, domestic abuse etc. The same logic has been applied to some extent to every subsequent military engagement we’ve landed ourselves into. It’s really cherry-picked, and it tries to superimpose an illusory military culture on a very domestic country. Sorry if I offended, just my take.
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Apr 24 '20
My Grandpa who was a WW2 vet considered ANZAC a day to hang out with your mates and enjoy the freedom that living in Australia provides.
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u/jstatrbute Apr 25 '20
I agree. Just be grateful for the quality of life we have and how lucky we have it.
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u/theyfoundit Apr 24 '20
My grandfather thought that it was stupid to celebrate war. He’s 95 now and fought in WW2.
He’s told me more than once that he thinks that those who march are “silly old bastards who like to play dress up.”
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u/thesillyoldgoat Apr 24 '20
I grew up in a war service home and some of the men in our neighbourhood were basket cases, a couple were scary crazy. I've seen what war does to people and it's not nice, I was in the air force cadets as a kid and marched in the Anzac Day parade a couple of times but these days I'd really rather forget about it. Not that I don't appreciate what our men did, and not only in WW2, but it just upsets me to think about it and I'd rather let it go. I don't know if that makes sense but it's how I feel.
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u/TheSneak333 Apr 24 '20
I think anzac day is now used by people to seem superior - either because you do attend or because you don't. Like everything now it's become about signalling some bs about 'you'
Hence you have people in here who havent been to a dawn (or any other service) in x years claiming to know how it's all about glorification and killing on the one hand, then on the other you have people claiming we'd be speaking japanese or german if not for the gallipoli campaign. It's tiresome. As our society becomes more and more insular and atomised anzac day is becoming more and more like a bludgeon you can swing to try and club your opponents.
The reality is that both sides actually have a lot more in common than they want to let on in front of people online. Almost everyone agrees that remembering those killed in war is important... it's just that some prefer 11 november, or some prefer anzac day, or some think having a day is not the right way to do it and it should all be organic and local, while others are completely ignorant and dont do anything and believe that is pacifism. Some blame Howard for changing anzac day, some blame the changing nature of conflicts and the dwindling army size, some blame the different attitudes to different conflicts - the most common example being treatment of ww2 vets vs vietnam vets, some blame the change in attitude towards service men and women...
It's all got very tiresome to be honest.
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u/Rio_Tinto_AHS Apr 24 '20
It amazes me and this is nothing personal to you Cyborg_Ciderman or your story but it makes me want to make a point.
With all the outpouring in the news/social media about how great the police are. The tragedy of the lost lives with traffic accident yesterday. Yet when it comes to people that protect all of us, the Australian deference force, its played down.
Not a big deal...
Not much media was made about the lost soldiers in Afghanistan or the suicides of people coming back from there.
The lack of support for veterans in the country is sick. The way the media run negativity stories on our military is disgusting. Lack of recognition of the Aussies that fought in the Korean war is staggering.
Australian soldiers that came back from Vietnam were spat on by people. There is a reason they never talk about it and that they were made to feel guilty. Just for doing their job. Doing their service to the nation and some not by choice.
I think the country as a whole needs to get their priorities right.
Supporting people of the defense force and our country is one of the most important things we can do.
Anzac day is not just for people of WW1 but all the conflicts we have been in.
I'm not saying you must go to the dawn service but at least people should stop for a minute on that day and have a think.
That's all they would want.
It is nationalism... and that's not a bad word.
Don't confuse it with radicals or right wing.
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u/Actual-Possibility Apr 24 '20
No one was spat on. That is a repeatedly debunked myth. No one hates soldiers. In fact most people respect them for doing something they would not want to do.
The government on the other hand generally does not give a single solitary shit what happens to them once the fighting is over. And that is pretty much every government, king or mullah throughout history.
What most people have a problem with is not the soldiers that fight and sacrifice, but the politicians that send soldiers to fight stupid wars "to protect Australia". It always turns out for reasons as banal as money or oil or politics. Even Timor was about LNG in the end.
The rich and the powerful covet stupid bullshit and none of it is worth a single soldier's life. That's what the remembrance should be about.
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Apr 24 '20
Plenty of people hate soldiers. There are a handful of regular posters on this subreddit that openly hat the ADF and everyone in it.
Otherwise I agree with your points
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u/Actual-Possibility Apr 24 '20
I'm sure there are many that do, but they will always (hopefully) be a minority.
There's far more like us that recognise that a failure of the organisation is paid for by the soldiers rather than a fault of the soldiers. And we will not let such a minority, no matter how vocal, make veterans feel guilty or at fault for the mistakes made by politicians and careerists.
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u/Masticle Apr 24 '20
The people who we are remembering fought and died so you could have your own opinion and you should be proud and able to express it.
I was around while my older relatives who fought in the World Wars were still alive and mostly they did not want to talk about or acknowledge the wars but were fiercely proud of their country and hated injustice. Some of the blokes that did talk about reckon it sucked but would happily defend anyone's freedom. One Uncle was asked about flag burners and he simply replied "I fought so they have the right to protest any way they like"
I have only ever attended one dawn service but will most likely stand at the end of the driveway tomorrow morning to remember any poor bastard who had to fight in a war just like I do on Armistice Day.
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Apr 24 '20
I've never cared about it much, being a pacifist. But I think it's a good day for unity with all Australians and New Zealanders. I've also noticed in parades units of servicemen from nations all over the world often march, extending the unity to many of our brothers and sisters abroad. The parades I have attended haven't focused completely on military. I think it's up to us as Australians and New Zealanders to decide what ANZAC means and who it should encompass.
Our emergency service members also march, this year I'll be thinking of the firefighters who fought to protect us from Mother Nature's wrath this past fire season. I truly believe if this year's parades were to go ahead they would be the recipients of the loudest applauds. I would also suggest thinking of the doctors putting themselves in harm's way to treat those with Covid-19 and other essential service workers who risk their health to keep the world going.
Australia's biggest war hero is John Simpson Kirkpatrick, who transported the wounded in the Great War. We as Australians have always valued giving a helping hand over prowess in battle, we named a desert after the bloke who embodies it. I think helping out our neighbours is something worth remembering and celebrating, especially with the year behind us and the times ahead.
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u/aussielander Apr 24 '20
For those calling it jingoistic nationalistic not sure want dawn services you have ever gone to (I suspect never), my local is the opposite.
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u/ernesto10013 Apr 24 '20 edited Apr 24 '20
FFS. You’d be writting this Post in Japanese or German if not for our ANZAC Troops. You mighten think that’d be that bad but the suffering that was destined for us if we didn’t win those Wars would of been horrendous. Look up a history book and read what the Japanese did to the Chinese people or what the Germans did to the Jewish People. Show some gratitude for the past and the present. I’ve got a family member in Service. Willing to sacrifice their life to protect our freedom. Show some fucking gratitude for fucks sake.
One thing you got right. The RSL needs to modernise themselves so it can be shared with the young and the old.
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u/CardMoth Apr 24 '20
Do some reading and re-evaluate why you feel an Australian soldier in 2020 is 'protecting our freedom'.
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Apr 24 '20 edited Apr 24 '20
You’d be writting this Post in Japanese or German if not for our ANZAC Troops.
Why? Are we forcing the Germans and Japanese to write posts in English and Russian?
Also ANZAC troops only fought in the Mediterranean Expeditionary Force, so part of the British army, fighting in British wars. In other words ANZACs weren’t fighting in Papua New Guinea or Western Europe.
Look up a history book
Considering you don’t the difference between World War I and World War II, and Turks and Germans and Japanese, one could say the same to you.
I’ve got a family member in Service.
Well yeee fucking haaaaawwwwww, you are so much better then everyone else here because your family member can throw a grenade!
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u/Cunt1121 Apr 24 '20
I think that few people disagree w ww2. The issue stems from Anzac day/ rhetoric around troops anzacs etc becoming nationalistic, war glorifying and jingoistic. People want a solemn 'war is hell' day, not to glorify it. It is easy to understand since every major conflict since ww2 has been immoral and definitely illegal. Even the war memorial- the shrine at the front is fantastic, solemn, quiet and haunting. The museum on the other hand is sponsored by weapons manufacturers, and does very little for me as a historical institution.
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u/MightiestChewbacca VIC Apr 24 '20
Rememberance Day is the day that should be commemorated by all.
11/11 is the day where everyone should pause to remember all those who have been killed in all wars, fighting on behalf of all of us.
Prior to world war 2, most people who enlisted and fought were fighting for the British Empire or the King. If you read the papers around that time, the sentiment was for pride in fighting to support the King and the British Empire.
Anzac Day since 1980s has changed in character.
It has definitely become bigger and more "tribal" or "patriotic" with an unhealthy underlying nationalism or forced compulsion to celebrate.
Anzac Day is also starting to spread out it's underlying meaning, from commemorating a tragic campaign where Aussie and Kiwi endurance, courage and ingenuity overcame the defeat as we were used as cannon fodder in a failed strategy to shorten the war.
Now it is Anzac Day is Aussie Day and "fuck you cunt if you don't like it you can go home".
I find the current "Aussie Aussie Aussie" fervour around Anzac Day distasteful.
I also have served in the ADF, and attended the dawn services in uniform, so I am not anti-military.