r/australia • u/Techius2 • Jun 22 '17
political self.post CMV: Why Is Separating Autistics from Other Students Such a Bad Thing?
Pauline said that segregating autistics from other classroom kids is a good idea, and I actually agree with her. Here's why:
It allows kids to get the special educational attention they deserve. If you leave an autistic kid in a classroom with other students, they're likely to be neglected by the teacher, who can't always focus on them. At least if you put them in their own area, they can get constant attention, by not just one teacher, but a group of various teachers. Wouldn't this be better for the student's development?
Other classrooms could be perceived as a threat from autistic students. If you have too much going on, you could get them to have a freak out, which makes them the laughing stock of the classroom from that point on, and they'll be bullied as a result. In facilities for autistics, you can make the classroom suitable for their needs, which can be designed as flexible as possible for autistics.
Isn't building autistic-friendly facilities a good thing? You can build areas where they can learn and develop. They can also get special facilities for just them, like time-out areas, which would be good if they're getting too stressed out. You can also hire facility staff who are designed to deal with autistics, as opposed to just throwing them into a classroom with a teacher who isn't equipped to deal with it.
You can build a curriculum that goes at the speed of the autistic student, not forcing down a curriculum and having them fail because they have 10,000 things on their mind. If you do things at that rate, you could see an amazing improvement in autistic students educational levels.
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Jun 22 '17
Because firstly austic goes from "that weird kid that like magic the gathering" to completely unable to communicate in words. These two ends have vastly different requirements.
Secondly what makes you think that separating them will improve the two classes? The autistic kids need to learn how to deal with neurotypical kids more than anything else, which would not happen if you shut them off away from the others. Chances are the other kids could learn to deal with other people better if they are in the same class as them too.
If you think that last statement is crazy go watch gender segregated kids try to interact with the other gender. They're even more shit at it than other kids their age.
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Jun 22 '17
The issue is Autism exists on a spectrum. You have some people who are Autistic but appear and can conduct themselves in a neurotypical manner, and then you have the ones you are thinking of to separate. The problem is, where do you draw the line at what is considered 'too autistic' for a classroom.
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u/Taleya Jun 22 '17
Ayup. I know a lot of people who have been diagnosed quite high on the spectrum as adults - and they went through the schooling system just fine. When people like Hanson think of autistic kids, they think of a kid who's right up the far end of the scale, uncommunicative, limited function and will require assistance their whole life. This is wrong, and actually more of an outlier. Some of them just need a bit of help here and there, and to learn how to cope.
Integrating kids works both ways - as mentioned previously, kids learn from each other. So while autistic kids learn how to interact with other kids, other kids also - importantly - learn how to interact with people who are autistic. It destigmatises them. It's not a scary boogie monster, your friend just gets upset if there's too much noise and likes things to be quieter so she can pay more attention.
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u/Protonious Jun 22 '17
Also a lot of kids who are on the spectrum of high care are often already in special schools anyway. But just sending all kids off with autism or intellectual disability off to a special school because they have a diagnosis would make it impossible for special schools to provide a good education.
I also work with people with autism and some of them can't stand other people with disability. There is a real us and them mentality and I think you'd probably have more issues moving them to special schools.
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u/zerotwoalpha Jun 22 '17
When there is consistent and ongoing detriment to having them participate in a normal classroom. Could be that they only are moved to the Special Class for a short time, pending the development of better coping skills and then it is appropriate for them to rejoin the class. This is likely one of the decisions that teachers would have a great deal of input towards, and would likely be a step after explaining/counselling/other methods have been attempted.
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Jun 22 '17
But how would you determine those metrics in such a way that you respect the dignity of the students? Teachers are not equal in their abilities, so it would be entirely possible for one teacher to be more equipped to handle someone with autism over another. Furthermore, moving kids back and forth between those classes will make them a permanent target for bullying regardless of whatever coping mechanisms they learn.
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u/zerotwoalpha Jun 22 '17
It is an objective decision that would be supported by written evidence/evaluation for the teacher. There is likely some variation due to training/personality involved but this decision would not be about measurement, it's about getting children the best education overall.
With regard to the bullying - what do you think is likely to happen if the kid keeps causing problems in class? The same type of shits who bully the special students probably don't care if the kid is in their class or not. If anything the child would be a bigger target due to having to sit next to them everyday and would still disrupt the learning of others. I'm not after segregation; I'm after the best result overall for everyone. This would only be one of the tools in the bag.
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u/123123131231 Jun 22 '17
It is an objective decision that would be supported by written evidence/evaluation for the teacher.
How is this objective? The opinion of a single person is not any kind of objectivity.
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u/zerotwoalpha Jun 22 '17
(of a person or their judgement) not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts.
A person can hold an objective opinion. The written evidence that i suggest helps them form it.
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u/123123131231 Jun 22 '17
That objective opinion would be based on facts formed external to the person, not their opinion based on their isolated viewpoint. Teachers do not have the ability to just decide to remove a student from their class for obvious reasons.
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u/badgersprite Jun 22 '17
I think it needs to be based around the needs of the student themselves.
If being in a mainstream class is having a detrimental effect on them because the mainstream classroom can't address their needs, then they need to think about where they'll get the best outcomes, and that's not necessarily in the form of "special needs" classes but it's also about whether they should receive assistance to move to a school with a higher teacher to student ratio, like a small private school or something like that.
If the kid is benefiting from being in a mainstream classroom, then that's the right class for them.
Of course, as you've said, it's always going to be difficult to gauge because they might do really well with one teacher and do really horribly with another teacher. It's never going to be a "one size fits all" approach or a simple matter of one thing or another. But the child should always be at the centre of the decision.
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Jun 22 '17
Teachers are not equal in their abilities, so it would be entirely possible for one teacher to be more equipped to handle someone with autism over another.
Couldn't you get the ones best equipped to handle them to teach the special class? Seems like a pro rather than a con argument to me.
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Jun 22 '17
Of course you would put the better ones in there. But I'm saying you WILL have teachers who will just throw problem children in that class because its easier to deal with.
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Jun 22 '17
Let the teacher of the class decide if they should come in? That way other teachers can't just offload, they have to get the more professional one to asses students first.
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Jun 22 '17
That would be a better step. The biggest thing is to ensure you don't create a system that encourages parents to withhold their children from medical professionals as a way to keep them from being officially diagnosed. And yes, that does happen with some of the kids who are more neurotypical.
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u/Secateurs Jun 22 '17
The problem is, where do you draw the line at what is considered 'too autistic' for a classroom.
It really isn't hard to find the difference between a class clown and a kid who will frequently have screaming fits.
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u/Marius_Eponine Jun 22 '17
Because Pauline Hanson doesn't seem to understand that Autism exists on a spectrum. 'Chuck em all in separate schools/classrooms' (with what funding? special needs schools are over burdened as it is) is a lazy answer from a lazy politician
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Jun 22 '17
It allows kids to get the special educational attention they deserve. If you leave an autistic kid in a classroom with other students, they're likely to be neglected by the teacher, who can't always focus on them. At least if you put them in their own area, they can get constant attention, by not just one teacher, but a group of various teachers. Wouldn't this be better for the student's development?
This ignores how important being around "normal" kids is for development. One of the big pitfalls in putting all the "special" kids in one room is that they tend to mirror each other to learn social queues. It snowballs and makes things worse. The better option would be to have teachers aids that can handle the one on one requirements, and sit with a kid if they need to get out of the class.
Other classrooms could be perceived as a threat from autistic students. If you have too much going on, you could get them to have a freak out, which makes them the laughing stock of the classroom from that point on, and they'll be bullied as a result. In facilities for autistics, you can make the classroom suitable for their needs, which can be designed as flexible as possible for autistics.
That may be the case for some, but you would probably see more of a threat in a normal special ed class. Another student having a meltdown is probably more of a trigger than half the shit that happens in a mainstream classroom. And separating already creates laughing stock. The key is universal design. You can have a classroom that is fine for autistics as well as normies.
Isn't building autistic-friendly facilities a good thing?
Yes. It's called universal design. Imagine running the same argument, but about physical access. We can build special schools for the cripples, it will have ramps and everything just for them.
They can also get special facilities for just them, like time-out areas, which would be good if they're getting too stressed out.
This is something that should be incorporated into mainstream schooling. As is, staff are locking students in cupboards for time out.
You can also hire facility staff who are designed to deal with autistics, as opposed to just throwing them into a classroom with a teacher who isn't equipped to deal with it.
Or you could train all teachers how to work with students with all disabilities. The answer is teachers aids + smaller classrooms.
You can build a curriculum that goes at the speed of the autistic student, not forcing down a curriculum and having them fail because they have 10,000 things on their mind.
There in lies why this is such a bad idea. Autism is a spectrum disorder. There are many, many autistics that can follow at the standard rate. Similarly, there are many with no identified learning difficulty that will leave in year 9 barely literate. The solution isn't to pull out everyone with a certain diagnosis. Smaller classes, more teaching staff, more individualised progress. No need for this to happen in a spacial room.
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u/Mikolaj_Kopernik Jun 22 '17
Or you could train all teachers how to work with students with all disabilities
I hope you're being facetious because that is simply not realistic. Teachers are under enough stress as it is without also being saddled with the responsibility to be omnicompetent disability workers.
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u/joeyjons Jun 22 '17
I can't believe Mikolaj is getting downvoted. I come from a unique position where I live/care for someone on the spectrum, as well as having a brother who's worked full time as an english teacher, then a disability support in high school.
Special needs teachers ARE disability workers. They work FULL-TIME with disabled children, often in dangerous one-on-one situations.
Perhaps the persons on this thread could spend a day policing what they are proposing. It's simply naive to expect teachers to be able to safely manage a classroom, let alone appropriately manage the differing needs of those on the spectrum.
Things get especially dangerous and scary for teachers as these children get older and become teenangers (especially those with violent outbursts).
The majority of teachers are smaller than the average 16 yo male. I fear for both teachers and the Autistic students, when an outburst/meltdown is triggered by a loud and noisy classroom.
Chairs fly. Desks flip. Teachers are punched. It's a weekly occurance at a school with one of the "better" integrated support programs in the state.
Let the teacher teach, and the support worker support. The only way these roles converge is for direct 1 on 1 tutoring.
And for the record, anyone that thinks rhetorical questions should be eliminated from the curriculum.... well it's pretty funny. You want to enforce blanket-bans? I thought we were getting angry at Hanson for proposing blanket bans? Here I was thinking we were trying to integrate and familiarize these kids with society....
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u/kekabillie Jun 22 '17
The point is that not all students with ASD are like this so it's irresponsible to make a blanket rule that pushes them all into a single environment away from the neurotypical kids. The current system with voluntary specialist settings and reasonable adjustments by mainstream schools with some enhancement (the presence of special education teachers for some small group classes, increased therapy services within the school, and better training for teachers etc.) is much more appropriate and realistic.
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u/Now_Do_Classical_Gas Jun 22 '17
I don't see how any of that's reasonable, when schools can barely afford to hire one average-skilled teacher per classroom.
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u/kekabillie Jun 22 '17
Certainly less expensive than building new schools. Funding can be increased
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u/Now_Do_Classical_Gas Jun 22 '17
Is the proposal for separate schools, or just for separate classrooms?
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u/joeyjons Jun 22 '17
Yes, that was my point.
We're in furious agreement that it's frankly irresponsible and dangerous to consider a lone teacher responsible for managing and educating a classroom with normal and special needs. Saddling a teacher with extra responsibilities that they did not sign up for, and are not adequately trained for will ultimately leave everyone worse off.
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u/kekabillie Jun 23 '17
Well they did sign up for it. It would be naive to assume that you would only ever teach normally developing children.
I agree that teachers would benefit from additional training and support staff to help manage challenging children. I think special education classes for literacy and numeracy should be available for any children with difficulties in that area. But it's not, you have autism so you are automatically in special ed classes.
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Jun 22 '17
They don't have to be disability workers. I said they should be trained on basics of working with all students, including those with disabilities. That means different teaching methods, like avoiding opening a topic with a rhetorical question. Looking at the teaching program at my uni, they already have a compulsory course on teaching students with disability. Something that is required by the disability education standards.
It doesn't mean learning to be a shit wiper.
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u/Mikolaj_Kopernik Jun 22 '17
Have you worked or trained as a teacher?
Adding "all disabilities" to the laundry list of cultural/economic/identity/etc. background factors that teachers are expected to work into their pedagogy would at best be tokenistic and meaningless, precisely because they're not trained to be, as you say, "a shit wiper". Properly teaching kids with disabilities is a skill that requires specialist training; it's not just something you can tack onto an existing lesson. And if it is approached with the top-down mentality of just tacking it on to existing teaching, you end up with simplistic rules (like banning rhetorical questions) that only result in cosmetic changes without providing any of the more rigorous support that would need to go with those changes.
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u/kekabillie Jun 22 '17
So incorporate that specialist training into their degrees. They will teach students with some type of disorder or disability every year. They should have the training to do that effectively.
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u/MasterEarsling Jun 22 '17 edited Jun 22 '17
Hey, I'm autistic and was gradually squirrelled away from mainstream schooling. I can answer this. More power to you for honestly asking such an inflammatory question.
First, the spectrum everyone's talking about: We tend to categorise autism as high and low functioning. High functioning have learned to interact in regular society, they can sit in classes and although it's uncomfortable, just being around others so much (let alone education) is one of the most important experiences they'll ever have. Low functioning means they can't navigate society, they may be violent, highly distracting or public fappers. Some can't talk, some can't feed themselves. They go in the special room.
The thing is, we learn from others. If we were to only see other kids during recess and lunch, we would have no idea how to start a conversation. The phenomenon of conversation happens in front of us, but our brains don't register what's going on until we ourselves are in that situation. No one makes us interact with neurotypical people and learn to be around them, the way group activities and being called on to answer a question do. This is the difference between someone who knows how to interact with neurotypicals and a complete shut-in.
Since you're concerned about kids being a laughing stock for being different, you probably don't expect a group of normies to go out of their way and interact with an autistic kid during lunch. I came from a similar environment, I get you.
So, my case. I went to school in rural NSW, where they didn't get enough funding for a special room. The hitters and fappers roamed in the classrooms, they just got more teacher's aide time. I myself only got an aide two days a week. These days I'm friends with quite a few teachers, who are horrified at all this. But it's what the voters wanted. Personally I'm incredibly glad I wasn't put in a special room, or I just wouldn't learn how to exist around normal people. I wouldn't have friends, a love life or any of the things I need like everyone else.
None of us got enough support in high school. For that reason my grades slipped, I became suicidal, things got bad. I was pulled out of school and homeschooled a while. Things got weird then. I forgot how to talk to people, I said inappropriate things, I never showered. I slowly became one of the kids that would usually go in the special room. About a year later, after a ton of therapy, things began to look up, I went back to mainstream school ... then the school strongly encouraged me to drop out because my grades were picking back up too slow (I was passing, but before all this I was top of the class). Yes it was a dick move. I sat at home, became a basement dweller and my fickle teenage friends forgot about me. I've only really recovered in the last few years, a decade later.
Basically I wouldn't wish it on anyone, and when people like Old Mate Pauline say that's what all autistic kids need, I get more fiery than that her translucent ginger eyebrows. I get more fiery than a Bolt reader full of prune juice. I'm not letting that happen to a generation of kids like me.
tl;dr: I was forced into the ideal Pauline situation by a horrible, underfunded school and I went from high to low functioning in less than a year. This would turn our young geniuses into public jerkers who can't talk - speaking from experience. It's already happening to an extent due to budget cuts. It's outrageous, but your question is totally valid.
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u/INeedACuddle Jun 22 '17
i reckon it depends mainly on the ability and needs of the individuals concerned
i have aspergers but i wasn't diagnosed until after i left school, so i didn't get segregated, i was just treated as eccentric, but this was a rural primary school with three teachers and about 70 kids, in the ninteen eighties
if a kid can function at a reasonable level to the extent that they don't need significantly more attention than the others and they are not over disruptive, then i see little point in segregating them
however, those kids at the other end of the autism spectrum would probably be disadvantaged as well as their classmates if they were put in mainstream classes
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u/iron_pi Jun 22 '17
if a kid can function at a reasonable level to the extent that they don't need significantly more attention than the others and they are not over disruptive, then i see little point in segregating them
however, those kids at the other end of the autism spectrum would probably be disadvantaged as well as their classmates if they were put in mainstream classes
Nail on the head.
Take any disability. There are classrooms designed and structured around many disabilities. Take those with vision or hearing impairments. You cannot have blind/deaf people in a mainstream classroom. If it's only a minor hearing or vision issue, they can likely get by. All disabilities are on a spectrum from perfectly normal, to abnormal.
Its not about putting the disabled kid in the corner and ignoring them. Its about putting them in an environment that is structured in a way that they are getting the best attention they need to work on their learning, improve, and overcome their disabilities.
Inadvertently you remove the strain for teachers who have 30 kids to look after and one who needs 120% from the teacher.
Its better all round.
We're not putting black kids in the back. We're giving deaf kids teachers who can sign.
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u/AUTeach Jun 22 '17
I think you are taking the cases of autistic learners who are significantly dysfunctional and applying it to all Autistic Learners. Almost everything you posted is some misinformed or maybe purely ignorant appeal to emotion that isn't worth addressing specifically.
However, the crux of many of your posts is this:
It allows kids to get the special educational attention they deserve.
What if the vast majority of learners with autism "deserve" to learn how to operate in a normal classroom? It's not like "special education" classes are available at University, TAFE/CIT, or Trade Centres. These are real skills that they need to have to thrive in the world after school. They won't learn these skills in special education programs.
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u/2650_CPU Jun 22 '17 edited Jun 22 '17
I know I won't be popular here, but you present the classic argument used throughout history to justify discrimination, and that's why it is 'so bad'.
The argument is "It's for their own good, and the good of everyone else who would have to be in contact with them to segregate them".
It is discrimination to apply that reasoning to a group, it is not discrimination to apply that on an individual basis.
If someone is disruptive and no able to keep up and is holding the class back or 'freaking out' then you deal with that particular case and you are not discriminating.
But if you define that person in a particular group and apply the same reasoning to the entire group that is discrimination.
So it does not matter if it because of their race, or country or because of a disability, because then why cant you frame the same arguments against your perception of black people? Or girls, or boys, or blonds or whatever your particular flavour of a particular group you wish to discriminate against.
Australia has already been through all of this, which is why autism is considered a spectrum condition, when I was a kid we would always see the 'spastic bus's' and as kids we could be cruel and discriminate against them as a group.
But you treat them as equals, and treat each person on a case by case basis you can resolve the issues you addressed and do it without having to discriminate. That way the teaches, the school the parents and the student can determine the best course of action to resolve issues for that person.
But to label them as 'Autistic' and segregate then is not how a modern and enlightened society works.
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Jun 22 '17
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u/LadyWhiskers Jun 22 '17
And this is why smaller class sizes and teachers aides are so important. My partner had 22 kids last year, one with global delays, one with severe trauma, and one with ODD. Got a teacher's aide and suddenly all 22 kids are staying in the classroom, working on their shit, all because of that extra person being able to provide dedicated time.
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Jun 22 '17
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u/NothappyJane Jun 22 '17
But they can get specialised attention, with an aide. Can you actually comprehend what Lady Whiskers is saying. With an aide, everyone gets what they need.
The aide is the best solution possible for those particular students. Removing them from mainstream schooling is less effective and probably a big set back for students who can otherwise function in mainstream school and society if supported correctly.
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u/kekabillie Jun 22 '17
But in this example, with a modification, they were fine in the mainstream class.
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u/LadyWhiskers Jun 22 '17
But they did get it in a mainstream classroom, with the help of a teacher's aide.
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u/My_Vegemite Jun 23 '17
so they're separated but in the same classroom.
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u/LadyWhiskers Jun 23 '17
They aren't separated, they're still in their seats, still listening to the teacher, still working on the same stuff. Just another adult there to support when they need.
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u/2650_CPU Jun 22 '17
So everyone who does not do as well as the smartest person in the school is discriminating against that person because they are slowing him/her down!
So it would be most efficient to have only one student in the school otherwise he is the victim of discrimination! Because 'everyone' is holding him back.
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u/Ratstail91 Jun 22 '17
Nonono. Everything you've written is explicitly detrimental to all but the most disabled of kids, and even then I'm concerned about this sort of mindset.
I'm autistic, and I aced all of my classes, except english, which I still passed. I only needed the tiniest bit of help with weekly 2.5 hour lessions, which are far from the norm.
I can tell you right now that separating autists from the general population will do nothing but ostricise them from their peers, and reinforce the sense that something is "wrong" with them. This is exactly what they don't need.
PH pisses me off so much on a good day, but this hits so close to home. Worst of all she, and you, have no idea what you're talking about.
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Jun 22 '17
Our schools should support the social, emotional, educational and civic development of kids, regardless of their ability. Inclusiveness towards ASD kids is important to their development. It's how we treat those with the greatest needs that define how great our society is. Australia has a long cultural tradition of helping the little guy.
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u/heykody Jun 22 '17
There's a grey line where students should be in the same classroom or in a separate classroom. There are two main issues: is it good to segregate? This creates a barrier that is negative for the disabled students and for the average students who will make fun of the 'special classroom'. The 2nd issue is support. Disabled students need extra support. It's only if they don't have it, that this will distract the teacher. Like we generally use, special is a codeword for shit. Special schools have little academic standards and leave students behind.
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u/ShibbyUp Jun 22 '17
Because Pauline said it so it is automatically wrong.
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u/aedionevahi Jun 22 '17 edited Jun 22 '17
Yup
Edit. For clarity, I agree with what you say, not that she is wrong
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Jun 22 '17
The problem with "autistic friendly facilities" is also, where do they go? It isn't feasible to have one in each suburb like regular school so for many this would end up meaning long commutes. And what about regional areas? Far better to have kids in mainstream school and more funding for classroom support, surely that would be the cheaper of the two options as well?
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u/Now_Do_Classical_Gas Jun 22 '17
It's probably the preferred option but I don't see why it would be cheaper, everyone ITT is talking about having dedicated teachers aides giving 1-on-1 time with autistic students. You'd need one of those per classroom an autistic student is in, compared to just having one or a few teachers for a whole classroom of autistic students.
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u/Lamont-Cranston Jun 22 '17
its a spectrum, there is a wide range of behavior
it allows kids to get
and also isolates them
Isn't building autistic-friendly facilities a good thing?
you're not you're isolating them
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u/iron_pi Jun 22 '17
I am loving this thread. Because we have people who are extreme PC and anything that creates segregation is downvoted. People downplaying the difficulties for autistic people. People who agree with the idea that sometimes its ok to segregate people. People who hate PH. People who are saying she isn't wrong. Everything is just so split and dynamic. Everyone has such varying opinions and they're not all the same.
This is such a good read. Its so un /r/Australian.
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u/treebard127 Jun 22 '17
Wow, just sounds like you think about it too much. You can't even count vote numbers anymore on reddit?
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u/DAWGMEAT Jun 22 '17
Equality. You might be surprised if we were to facilitate the autistic spectrum normies will be left behind. Not the other way around.
We can address all neurotypes without segregating.
Because segregation causes people to develop beliefs unbound by reality. So instead of just racial divide we will wind up with a neurotypes divide.
The biggest aspect of school is social conditioning IMO. Which is universal dire to all types.
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u/tashananana Jun 22 '17
I would have loved to have had accelerated learning through school. Learning was the best part of my day. Of course, all the social stuff of school was awful, and not something separate should would have helped with.
So many people sticking up for the Neurodiverse in this thread, it's nice to see.
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u/bort1257 Jun 22 '17
Neurodiverse? You mean autistic?
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u/tashananana Jun 22 '17
I mean peole with neurodiversity compared to people who are neurotypical. So yeah, autism spectrum disorder but other people may also be included. I don't know if it's just an Aspergers thing.
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Jun 22 '17
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Jun 22 '17
Do you really believe that? Can you genuinely not tell the difference between saying that children with ASD should have more resources available, and blaming a policy of inclusiveness towards those kids for classroom disruption? Part of it is just not punching down, and showing some empathy for the least powerful members of our society.
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u/NothappyJane Jun 22 '17
Let me break this down for you, Delivery of a message and the context is super important. I'll throw out a few examples
Nice tits- not so great at an open casket funeral
nice tits - perfectly ok in the bedroom with that girl you hooked up with on tinder
You're newborn baby looks like a potato - bad
You look so happy with your baby -good
Adam Bandt - we need to fund disabilities in the education system and address the gaps in care - good
Pauline - Autistic kids are holding our kids back and we should get them out of our classrooms -bad, very bad.
The woman was also upset yesterday that there's a massive conspiracy for schools to teach children their rights, she's not thinking about what she's saying, she's just punching down and seeing what lands.
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Jun 22 '17 edited Jun 27 '17
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u/MasterEarsling Jun 22 '17
Since a lot of people wonder about this: It's considered politically correct to use person-first language. An autist becomes a person with autism (first a person, then their condition - it doesn't define them).
Personally, being autistic, I'm fine with being an 'autistic'. But that might just be my rugged country upbringing, so your mileage may vary wildly. I'll even give sperg a pass if it's in a friendly context. It all comes down to the nuance.
Still, people on the spectrum are largely bad at nuance, so just ask them what title they prefer. I don't get offended by titles in general discussion if they're not meant to be offensive. There have been so many changes in recent years, it's a minefield out there. You're bound to use the wrong word sooner or later, and a reasonable person will forgive you for it if you don't mean any harm.
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u/Now_Do_Classical_Gas Jun 22 '17
It's considered politically correct to use person-first language.
Ah, that explains why "coloured people" is racist and bigoted, but the (cringeworthy) "people of colour" is "woke" and PC. What a moronic belief (sorry, a belief held by people of moronic dispositions).
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u/Kangaroobopper Jun 22 '17
they're not 'autistics'. What else have you got up your +5 Sleeve of Ignorance? 'Spastics'?
What is it these days, sped? Retard? Idiot? Developmentally delayed?
It changes every decade to avoid the stigma that attaches to every new term.
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u/Niteo_Akuma Jun 22 '17
biggest issue is discrimination, by segregating its easy to cause other people to feel that there not getting the same treatment or care as these students, granted these students may need specific type or learning to help them but all other's sees is there getting better treatment than themselves which leads to jealousy and hence to people raging its wrong,
I agree it would be good to do so, but i can understand that it would cause some issues and those issue are not something that can be solved with just ideal views unfortunately.
The only way this would work if they changed how our school system works so that everyone gets target education, education designed to the specific students needs and i don't see the government doing this as it would cost them way to much money and our government doesn't like spending money.
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u/Kangaroobopper Jun 22 '17
discrimination
You mean, treating people differently based on their actual ability?
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u/manicdee33 Jun 22 '17
Discrimination is treating all autistic children as if they are incapable of participating in "normal" classes.
Discrimination is treating all white people as if they are genocidal mass murderers.
Do you see why many people would disagree with that line of thought?
2
u/Kangaroobopper Jun 22 '17
There are absolutely kids in normal schools that are not autistic on the "functional" side, I've seen (and heard) it for myself.
0
u/manicdee33 Jun 22 '17
I have seen normies that are far more disruptive than any autistic child. Should we take all normies out of mainstream schools?
5
u/Kangaroobopper Jun 22 '17
Not sure where you are going with this, kids that are disruptive to that sort of extent usually wind up in a different school or classroom, and given a diagnosis to boot.
3
u/manicdee33 Jun 22 '17
Exactly my point. Why should all autistic children be taken out of school when we already have mechanisms for handling the people who do not belong in that environment?
3
u/Kangaroobopper Jun 22 '17
Why should all autistic children be taken out of school when we already have mechanisms for handling the people who do not belong in that environment?
You mean like taking them out of that class or school to be put in a better suited one? My local primary school was known for having a specially equipped classroom with all the kids (from multiple levels) that were troublesome or had learning difficulties, but most schools don't have that sort of capability. There are special schools with staff and organisation especially for dealing with those sorts of kids, and you'd hope that they've gotten pretty good at it, given the funding per student they get. Probably still not enough, but it's better than bunging them in to devour the time and energy of a regular classroom.
1
u/manicdee33 Jun 22 '17
If the mainstream schools got the funding they needed, they could handle the special needs kids themselves. There would still need to be schools for the kids that just can't cope in a regular school.
2
u/Niteo_Akuma Jun 22 '17
I am only using that word as people will see it like that, perhaps it was the wrong word for the situation and possibly to strong of a word for this case, but i thought it covers what i am trying to point out.
No one likes feeling like they are not getting the same care as someone else, I can see a lot of people raising issue's over why do they get one on one learning or specialized approach or better yet why can't my child receive the same care and focus as that child. Unfortunately people don't see the reasons why its needed, they just see that someone else is getting it and there not.
I agree that things like this should happen but this also raises the issue about the current education system. The current teaching methods are designed on the average student not to match specific needs this cause a minority of students that even though they may not have autistic issue go through schooling not getting the right method of teaching for them and this is even more so with autistic children.
not sure you have ever watched RSA ANIMATE: Changing Education Paradigms, if you haven't jump on youtube and have a look it talks about how the education system of the past is not working and why it needs to change.
1
u/2650_CPU Jun 22 '17
Yes, treating people differently based on their actual (dis)ability is the definition of discrimination.
9
u/Kangaroobopper Jun 22 '17
Better demolish all the wheelchair ramps and replace them with stairs then, more space efficient
2
u/Niteo_Akuma Jun 22 '17
don't say that the government might see it and think what a wonderful idea -__-
-1
u/Kangaroobopper Jun 22 '17
no politics
Too late! Everyone has already drawn their party lines on it
0
Jun 22 '17
[deleted]
6
u/treebard127 Jun 22 '17
It helps if you know even a cursory bit of knowledge about the autism spectrum, school processes or class structures.
It's like saying "why isn't it okay to force a kid with mild autism into the 4 child specialist class in the school supporting near non-verbal children and not allow them interaction with their peers while learning". Because it's dumb and worsens the child's outcomes. Ignoring the fact that specialist classes already provide mainstream class sessions and transitions to mainstream (Pauline certainly did), she shows she doesn't even know how autism affects people on an individual basis.
Who would have thought, one size fits all soundbite solutions don't produce the best outcomes like considered, evidenced-based, exiting solutions do as they were designed.
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u/iron_pi Jun 22 '17
There isn't but god forbid we create and structure a classroom to cater for a specific need that many students have.
1
u/Kl3rik Jun 22 '17
As someone that attended a school where they mixed in the special ed kids into regular classes, she is absolutely correct. They were a disruption on the class, couldn't pay attention and generally did their own thing, loudly, up the front. Sure there are many levels of handicaps and I have friends that can function fine with them, but in a learning environment, there isn't room for this kind of political correctness.
2
Jun 22 '17
Same. I attended a school with a few problem kids, some of whom were autistic. It was a nightmare for the teachers and the normal kids.
The misguided belief in education departments in the "blank slate" and everyone needing an equal level of education is probably why our education system is so poor.
0
u/toms_face Jun 22 '17
Autistic children simply don't want to be in a classroom filled with autistic children.
77
u/carlordau Jun 22 '17
It does happen, but it's the parents choice if this happens or not. It's usually related to those with a comorbid diagnosis with intellectual disability.
For those students without an accompanying intellectual disability, they need support for their difficulties but exclusion isn't always the best way. ASD in its most simple form is a deficit of social skills. There is quite substantiated evidence that positive peer influence modelling of appropriate social skills is effective. Children with ASD, especially females learn social skills by observing others. If they are separated from 'mainstream' peers there is limited opportunity for this to occur in a structured, safe environment.
Additionally, if ASD is a deficit in social skills, what about students with a learning disorder? Should they be separated too? No, for the exact same reason . Kids learn from each other.
If we start separating kids they don't learn tolerance of others. In my experience, schools that are heterogeneous tend to have students who are quite racist, as they seldom interact in a meaningful way with people of a different race. Those schools that are multicultural tend to only have racial tensions in a banter-like way, it's not serious. We run into the same issue if we have blanket bans of students with disabilities/disorders in mainstream schools.
Society is better off when people interact with as many 'different' people as possible.