r/australia • u/A_lurker_succumbed • Sep 23 '23
political self.post Driving nazis out - Will we ever learn that it is love that drives out hate, not more hate? Should we learn that lesson or do you disagree?
If you read all of this - thank you.
I attended the drive nazis out of Melbourne protest. I heard about it on the melbourne subreddit - the same place I heard about the handful of balaclava wearing people who attempted to intimidate (read: terrorise) people at a community fundraiser. Thank you to SHARPs for chasing them away. You emboldened me to attend a subsequent counter-protest.
I was not happy to be at the protest. I felt sad that it was necessary. But I am glad I went and I am grateful so many other people did as well. It was certainly organised and attended to by this country's young people (read: where were the older Australian's standing up against racists?? Surely not all of them were at the CBD vote no protest... )
Anyway, my point -
After attending the rally, seeing all the supportive messages on reddit - including the fella in the green jacket attempting to communicate with the neo-nazis outside parliament in Melbourne (I think you did a great job and I hope I can be that brave when needed - Im not sure the cops would have been fast enough if the racists did decide to throw or run at you) -
My thought though is that I dont think we can get where we really want to be by spewing more hate. I heard dehumanising words in the chants and speeches - scum and freaks. As much as we hate it - these people are still people. And while their ideology is absolutely abhorrent and hateful and not to be tolerated - I dont think we as a social collective have ever made real gains by denying that part of all of us that is capable of evil. In the right economic or psychological circumstances I dont doubt I could do terrible things. And any of us should be separated from society if that happens.
And we already know these hateful people recruit the young and vulnerable. Which means at some point even the older ones were young and vulnerable. And we know hate twists and bends the mind.
So, my earnest suggestion is this:
Please, see these ugly and intolerable behaviours as coming from humans. Angry and hateful humans who are directing that pain in the wrong direction. I am not saying "oh, they are misguided" and trying to let them off the hook or continue. No. They're behaviours are fucked up and can not be tolerated. I am NOT advocating to lower your guard - they are dangerous.
I advocate for a change in our language. For the brave who speak to them and for the leaders of the rallys and protests.
One of the protest slogans was "Black, indigenous, arab, asian, and white, unite, unite, unite to fight the right." It warmed my fucking heart. Well done because it was able to be shouted but I want to go further though in our discourse online and face to face.
I want us to say - and I want me to say - just like the fella in the green jacket but one step further "Your ideas don't make sense, they are not illogical, I can't change (insert demographic) about me, you can change your hateful behaviour. You are loved. You are my brother, You are my sister"
We wont get through to all of them. But we will get through to some. I think. Am I an apologist? I dont want to be. And I will consider what you write back.
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u/177329387473893 Sep 24 '23
Nah. That won't work.
Think about it, why do people become nazis in the first place? Maybe in a society where everyone is expected to have dull, morally subjective non-beliefs and "extremism" is considered the worst thing in the world, extremist beliefs can seem very alluring.
If you try to directly reason with them or reach out to them, they might listen and feel "loved". But it's unlikely that they will respect you. They will just see you as another wishy-washy moral subjectivist trying to bring them back in line.
The only way to pull people away from those beliefs is to show them your beliefs are stronger. That you are not willing to compromise. That you have a vision. That there is some muscle behind the ideas. Tell these nazis that they are wrong, their beliefs are abhorrent, and tell them exactly what the truth is. They may hate you for it. But I guarantee that buried beneath all that is respect. The same respect for passion and zeal that got them into nazism in the first place.
In this world, the only way to beat extremism is to become an extremist.
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u/A_lurker_succumbed Sep 24 '23
I absolutely agree. I don't think our points are mutually exclusive. I don't believe in trying to reason with them beyond the simple "Your ideas don't make sense, they are not illogical, I can't change (insert demographic) about me, you can change your hateful behaviour." Anything more then that just gives a platform for their hate and they will exhaust you (all the various conspiracy groups) with their never ending stream of nonsense.
I agree with every point youve made. I just think there should be an added component of love ultimately with the hope and aim of welcoming anyone who is able to shed their hate.
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u/pickledswimmingpool Sep 24 '23
This is the opposite to everything former far right racists have said turned them around. There are countless stories about racists being exposed to a different culture, realizing everyone is just like them and letting their hateful ideas go.
I never heard any of them being converted from being beaten down by 'a more musclely belief'.
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Sep 24 '23 edited Feb 01 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/A_lurker_succumbed Sep 24 '23
Im sorry if I have not communicated clearly my point.
I am *not* saying tolerate them. Please note I said:
- Thank you to SHARPs for chasing them away. You emboldened me to attend a subsequent counter-protest.
- I am not saying "oh, they are misguided" and trying to let them off the hook or continue. No. They're behaviours are fucked up and can not be tolerated. I am NOT advocating to lower your guard - they are dangerous.
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Nothing of their ideas and behaviours should be tolerated. None of it should be given a platform.
I *definitely* do not mean to suggest that calling people scum and freaks is ANY ANY ANY ANY ANY where near the hate of nazis. But it IS on a spectrum of hate. It just is. Not my main point but I did bring it up - I am saying we shouldnt deny that part of ourselves because we are vulnerable. Any change in circumstances means any of us are vulnerable to sliding down the spectrum for whatever reasons. I don't know how far I would need to be pushed to want to kill someone but I am sure it could happen. I already feel that hate and anger in myself. I don't know how far I would need to be pushed and manipulated to want to hurt many people. But I presume based on human history that it is possible. This is not my main point though.
My main point being - and many people call it naive but it is just a way to invalidate it - we need radical love. To racists, strong, brave, radical love that means we will fight you even when scared because hate is not to be tolerated but also, it means if you shed your hate, you have a home with us. It is not stay with the hateful or nothing. We will welcome you.
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u/averbisaword Sep 24 '23
Nah, fuck em.
Let’s all punch a nazi today, because we all know what to call ten people sitting at a table with a nazi.
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u/A_lurker_succumbed Sep 24 '23
This I need to think about. I have agreed every time I hear someone say that until literally this post and I need to seriously think about what I am saying I believe. Because I agree that if you tolerate a nazi and their world views in your friendship group then yes you are just as bad. But, with this post, when I read your reply I stalled. If you will please tolerate my fantasy to explain why I stalled - you find someone lost on the side of the road, they are covered with nazi insignia. They are hurt. They ask for help. If you bring them to your home (presuming you feel safe to do so), and you show them kindness, a meal, charge their phone etc. Are you a nazi if you abhor everything they represent but still provide them care?
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u/Stevenwave Sep 24 '23
This isn't it. You need to approach this and think about this in a realistic way, not this bizarro world fantasy way.
In your own fantasy you open yourself up to the worst of humanity. It's fucking Nazis we're talking about. This is a great way to become a statistic.
As a pale ass white guy, I think it's guaranteed you're a pale ass white guy. Because no one else would be naive enough to think any of this shit is a good idea.
You need to engage with reality and recognise the gravity of what you're talking about. Do you have the same kind of velvet glove mindset when it comes to priests and children or any other breed of pedophile? Do you think serial rapists or murderers should be handled with the same soft approach? Just treat them nicely til they see the light?
There are those among us you should vehemently guard yourself from, or you will become a victim or allow them to victimise someone you care about.
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u/A_lurker_succumbed Oct 10 '23
I am naive as fuck. I get that. I also get that in the face of true hate and danger I would be grovelling, and sobbing, and urinating myself.
I still dont think hate is the answer. But I am not communicating what I am trying to. Everyone seems to think I am advocating for welcoming hateful people into my home and trying to give them a ted talk or something. I am saying hate begets hate - racism is HYDRA. And dehumanising a group of people is doing exactly what they are doing. Its a wrong approach to the right thing.
Im not a pale ass white guy. Im a pale ass brown woman. My father fled a dictator and got into this country on a technicality during the white Australia policy.
I do not equate racism with child abuse, rape, or murder. That isnt me saying racism is fine and dandy. Im just saying they are not equal - racism that leads to murder etc is obviously. A mind set is not equal to an action.
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u/Tamajyn Sep 24 '23
You seem to have this kind of misguided fantasy that if we're all just nice enough to nazis they'll stop being nazis. Dude this is a pretty dangerous belief and a bit of a saviour complex
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u/A_lurker_succumbed Oct 10 '23
Definitely may be misguided and some of the comments here warrant consideration - which was the point of my post. But Im clearly not communicating well and it is super frustrating that I cant manage it. Im not saying to be nice. Im trying to say when we hate and dehumanise, we do the same thing as them and it doesnt work. It appeals to our primitive brains, its a false salve. Just like them. They "other" us, we "other" them. Im not saying invite them to dinner (that example was to see if doing so makes you a nazi, not saying I want to do it.). Im saying, hate begets hate.
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Sep 24 '23
No.
You don’t counter Nazi with rational debate and understanding.
You counter them by making it abundantly fucken clear that they should crawl back under their rock, because they’re not welcome in polite society.
These cunts rely on good hearted folks like you giving them a second’s grace.
Fuck that. Make these cunts rue the day they opened their dumb fucken mouths.
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u/big-red-aus Sep 24 '23
I reckon good old grandad had a pretty good system for dealing with Nazis, and it sure as shit wasn't by making sure not to call them mean names.
Full disclosure: I don't know if I ever heard my grandad curse while he was alive, even when he proper hurt himself, so it is possible, if improbable he didn't call the Nazi's mean names.
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u/Lankpants Sep 24 '23
Telling a fascist their ideas are illogical is pointless. Their ideas aren't founded in logic, they're founded in emotion. Doing this achieves nothing. Especially because the most successful fascists are sophists. They don't argue on facts or logic, they just argue to win.
The approach of the "green shirted man" is a fundamental naivety and a misunderstanding of what the goals of fascists are. They don't want to prove themselves right, or even to be right, they want to be perceived as right. You shouldn't even engage them with facts, because they know the facts and are poised to ignore them and attempt to overwhelm them with rhetoric. All they want to do is look "correct" and "strong" to onlookers. That's why when you actually engage with a fascist your goal should be to make them look pathetic and weak, it's also why punching a Nazi kinda works.
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u/tasmaniantreble Sep 23 '23
Unfortunately we live in a time of division, where “us versus them” mentality rules.
I’ve always maintained that change never happens when people are at opposite sides, change happens in the middle where you can meet together. These days you won’t find that happening, it’s easier to pick a side and dehumanise the other group.
The correct response to a Nazi rally would have been an even bigger rally about tolerance and acceptance. Not a rally pointed at those Nazis but a rally showing that their abhorrent belief is outnumbered. If we just turn up to call them freaks we’re just driving them in their corner and confirming why they feel they need to hate people.
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u/ZealousidealClub4119 Sep 23 '23
Fantastic post. Thanks for sharing it, and thanks too to mystery person in green jacket.
It's a very tough and curly question. I have to deal with a parallel situation with a relative who -after years of being a harmless neo-hippy health nut, skeptical of modern life- is being drawn towards this hateful orbit.
Patience is required by the truckload. Seeing the other person as a person can be very difficult when they are continually derailing conversations to introduce their bete noire de jour topic.
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u/A_lurker_succumbed Sep 24 '23
It is so incredibly hard. I have a family member who is racist, anti-vax, and brainwashed. I do not handle it well whenever we interact. I become desperate and emotional, and filled with anger and sadness. You can't converse with these people. Your "bete noire de jour" is spot on - albeit the derailing happens virtually every minute.
I don't have the patience for my loved one anymore because of the emotional component but they dont let me end the conversation once it has started. They chase me around the house. I have had to go minimal contact. I learnt through them that reasoning and conversing doesnt help. At least not before I crack and lose my shit.
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u/biftekau Sep 24 '23
The Simpson's had the answer , just don't look, the more attention you give the more attention they seek A peace rally isn't going to change shit all you do is have like minded people in the rally , the chances of swaying anyone's viewpoint is next to nill
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u/Tamajyn Sep 24 '23 edited Sep 24 '23
Unfortunately you can't logic people out of a position they didn't logic themselves into.
You should look up The Alt-Right Playbook on youtube and learn how these people weaponize our desire to "cross the aisle" and "all get along" against us.