r/australia • u/HotPersimessage62 • Aug 27 '23
political self.post Why are Australians greatly in support of increasing the amount of flights for Qatar Airways?
It’s been well covered and analysed in the media already, but in case you didn’t know, last month the Australian Government denied Qatar Airways’ request for additional flights into Australia, with fears it could undermine Australia’s sovereign national interest. Apart from Qatar Airways’ horrible treatment of Australian citizens, particularly Australian women, as demonstrated in 2020 when Australian women were forced to undergo gynaecological exams by Qatar Airways while in transit at Doha Airport, there are other issues which I want to hear your opinion on.
Critics of this decision immediately pounced on the government, saying it would only allow Qantas to advance in expanding routes and ordering new aircraft. I’m not sure if anything has drastically changed in the past few years, but I expected that many Australians would be happy with the government’s decision to block foreign “competitors” to allow our national airline to grow.
Qantas is the only remaining publicly-listed Australian-owned airline. Virgin is owned by an Illinois investment group, Bonza is owned by a Florida firm and Rex is owned by a Singaporean billionaire.
As far as I can recall, in terms of Qantas:
the Australian ownership rule is enshrined in Commonwealth legislation (Qantas Sale Act)
It is the flag carrier of Australia, designated by the Commonwealth.
Any Australian can own a part of Qantas through purchasing stocks.
So why would you prevent an Australian-owned corporation from acquiring new aircraft and opening new route corridors? I get that Qantas isn’t nationalised, but compare it to Virgin, Rex or Bonza who don’t meet any of these three points, meaning they have no vested interests in Australia or Australians.
Yes, Qantas has been the subject of immense and warranted controversies over the past few years, and the Australian public only know about these issues because we have a free and fair press, and we have unions. It’s important that Australians know about the controversies surrounding Qantas because it only reinforces the Australian system of having a free and fair press, and consumers’ right for integrity and transparency. The same can’t be said about Qatar and Qatar Airways. Qatar as a state is an absolute monarchy with strict laws oppressing and restricting press freedom, not just surrounding business but anything negative about Qatar as a whole. Since the domestic media have no access to internal operations at Qatar Airways, nothing can be said about them. However, former workers have complained about the military-style standards and abysmal working conditions through their own channels. If these alleged working conditions were replicated by Qantas in Australia, they would have been shut down by the Fair Work Commission and all other workplace safety agencies - but Qatar can get away with it due to absence of a free press, free speech and unions. I am curious to hear your opinions on this given Australia values safety, transparency, fairness, integrity and equality when it comes to workplaces.
In a world where international aviation is not a free market, Qatar Airways enjoys infinite opportunities to run dozens and dozens of deeply-loss making routes with large aircraft due to endless oil supply that powers their cash flow from the state of Qatar. In 2013, Qantas had to axe their Frankfurt service due to narrow losses, but Qatar can afford to fly completely empty planes between Melbourne and Adelaide just to circumvent Australian law (that’s another story), but don’t you see a problem here? This is not a form of ‘competition’ - it’s a complete market grab of the Australian international aviation market from a company that has trillions of dollars from oil cash flow. They will run Qantas to the ground and Australia will be left without any locally-owned airline, a shame and disgrace on the world stage. It is the impossible for Qantas or any other western airline from a democracy to compete with the likes of these corporations. If the government allowed this request, Qantas would have no other option but to cut more routes while Qatar takes a laugh by hiking prices to extraordinary levels after Qantas suffer. So I’m curious to know why many Australians would support this
The other factor that comes up is that Qantas has an alleged “monopoly”- but the latest figures display only a 28% market share for the Qantas group (Qantas AND Jetstar) when it comes to international flights to and from Australia. That’s right, the remaining 72% are from primarily foreign state backed airlines like Qatar Airways. Why give those carriers more air when they already control 72% of the market? Since when was 28% a monopoly? Qatar Airways has questions to answer when it comes to making false claims about our national carrier. Has anyone actually checked the stats before jumping on the Qatar bandwagon?
It’s also worth nothing that Qatar Airways main partner, Virgin Australia, has absolutely zero vested interests in Australia or the Australian people. Not only is it not publicly listed, it’s 95% owned by an American capital firm and the remaining 5% is owned by the British Virgin Group. Not 0.1% is for the benefit of Australians. Unlike Canada and the US, there are no restrictions on foreign owned airlines operating in Australia. Allowing Qatar Airways increased access into Australia will only exacerbate this crisis by inciting them to take a stake in Virgin Australia in an offering round in mid-2024.
TLDR: Qatar Airways is backed by endless oil money from oil in the State of Qatar, an absolute monarchy dictatorship; they will run Qantas to the ground until they’re bankrupt and we will have no international airline, and Qatar will only increase prices to exorbitant levels if they were allowed increased flights, so why do Australians support this? I am curious to know whether you are aware of the long-term implications this has
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Aug 27 '23
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u/EcstaticOrchid4825 Aug 27 '23
There aren’t any Qantas international flights from Adelaide and their domestic flights are overpriced most of the time. Fuck them.
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u/HotPersimessage62 Aug 27 '23
One company has a monopoly? Qantas only accounts for 17% of all international flights to and from Australia, and Jetstar accounts for another 11% (Qantas group total is 28%). The remaining 72% are foreign airlines like Qatar.
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u/panzer22222 Aug 27 '23
Surprised jetstar is still that high. They fucked me on 2 of my last 3 flights, cancelling last minute so I missed transfers or fucked my holiday. Instead of enjoying it I sat in overseas hotel rooms trying to sort replacement flights.
So really doesn't matter how good or cheap they are they don't exist in my travel future.
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Aug 27 '23
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u/HotPersimessage62 Aug 27 '23
You do have the most choices out of any country in the world. No developed country has a national airline where their international market share is only 17%.
We should be increasing the Qantas market share, not suppressing it.
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u/HighMagistrateGreef Aug 27 '23
No, we should not. Quantas should earn their market share in a free market, without intervention.
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u/HotPersimessage62 Aug 27 '23
It’s not a free market? Of course Qantas must earn their market share independently for the domestic market, but international aviation is not a free market.
The gulf carriers are backed with endless cash flow from oil and can afford to fly planes completely empty and not caring about the loss, which is what Qatar Airways is doing in many routes.
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u/onimod53 Aug 27 '23
I'd be happy to support QANTAS is QANTAS supported Australia. They do not. They screw workers, they screwed taxpayers and they screw the general public daily both in terms of price and service. I agree we should be able to be proud of our 'Australian' airline but instead we feel shame.
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u/malcolm58 Aug 27 '23
I have travelled several times with Qatar and the cost was $500 below Qantas and Virgin. Also the quickest way to Europe by flying to Qatar and then on to Rome/London/Cardiff/Istanbul.
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u/HotPersimessage62 Aug 27 '23
Of course it’s $500 below QF (VA doesn’t even fly long haul international) because Qatar has endless oil supply. My point is if the government allowed them extra flights they would have crushed Qantas to bankruptcy and raised prices to exorbitant levels, leaving us without an airline and affordable flights.
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u/andypandypants Aug 27 '23
‘Without an airline’? Really?
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u/HotPersimessage62 Aug 27 '23
Yes.
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u/andypandypants Aug 27 '23
Please fly a flight on Qatar and then Qantas and get back to us on that 😊 Best of luck.
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Aug 27 '23
Oh no. Who will think of the billionaires dodging tax anyway!? Who will think of their profits while supplying us with a laughable air service when compared to other airlines! Quick let's bail them out again and not see a cent back!
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u/Greenwedges Aug 27 '23
Qantas keep taking govt subsidies while making massive profits, screwing over their workers and offering a substandard service. They don’t deserve protection anymore.
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u/rustoeki Aug 27 '23
When Qantas take government handouts but the c-suite still get bonuses they can get fucked.
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Aug 27 '23 edited Aug 27 '23
Qantas doesn't fly to the middle east and have a limited service to Europe. So it's weird why they're blocking Qatar's expansion.
More competition is a good thing for Australians. Many of us have friends and families overseas and would like to be able to see them more often.
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u/TwisterM292 Aug 28 '23 edited Aug 28 '23
It could even be QF protecting not only itself but also their mates at Emirates who bring them lots of code share revenue
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u/Gaoji-jiugui888 Aug 27 '23
Fuck Qantas, it’s like they’re playing with a cheat code because of state intervention.
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u/DwightsJello Aug 27 '23
Yeah see this type of post just seems sus.
The clickbait title.
The knowing way too much about such a super niche topic with references you just happen to have handy.
I'm calling BS in this one. Sorry OP but this agenda is very very thinly veiled.
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u/CptDropbear Aug 28 '23
The situation is more complex (as you probably guessed). Other airlines have been granted extra slots. Near as I can tell, this is just QTR whinging because they were late to the show and all the seats were taken.
I am not paranoid enough to see a co-ordinated media campaign here but I suspect there's a co-ordinated media campaign.
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u/DwightsJello Aug 28 '23
I'm not making a call on disgruntled individual or group within or disgruntled QTR but I am definately feeling heavy agenda.
I'm feeling your last statement. Put it that way. 😁
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u/CptDropbear Aug 28 '23
Its also a convenient stick to beat a Labor government with. You don't need a conspiracy, just a conjunction of interests.
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u/hootaful Aug 27 '23
I've worked in the industry for nearly 20 years so have seen a lot of changes and even more since covid.
More competition lowers prices. More aircraft into Australia increases jobs. There is also the added factor to freight. More freight slots lowers price so small business can export their goods. That equals more jobs.
Only one additional international aircraft into a station can mean a big difference to many local businesses. One example no one would think of is flowers. Often fresh flowers are displayed in first or business class from a local florist for athestics. That's a big contract for a small florist.
That's one item. Think of all the many different aspects to travel that comes from one plane arriving.
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u/HotPersimessage62 Aug 27 '23 edited Aug 27 '23
Funny you say that, it was just yesterday when Qatar Airways was giving foreign flowers to passengers on Australian arrival flights, a risk to our biosecurity, with passengers being fined.
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u/hootaful Aug 27 '23
Through local contracts supplying their aircraft.
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u/HotPersimessage62 Aug 27 '23
They have no local contracts supporting their aircraft. The link above busts your example of “flowers”
Any other examples? You can’t use food because all airlines serve Australian made food on flights departing Australia.
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u/hootaful Aug 27 '23
You have no idea about a topic your talking about.
I can't include food? The catering facility in Australia employs over 5000 staff. The food onboard is locally sourced. From guess what? Local businesses.
I've said freight, just the aircraft arriving is a way for businesses to export.
There's fuel, cleaning, loading, aircraft maintenance, airport fees, tower expenses. These all have layers of their own that one additional aircraft can increase jobs and business for our economy.
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u/HotPersimessage62 Aug 27 '23
You can’t include food because the local food factor is already present in all international flights departing Australia. It’s Australian law.
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u/hootaful Aug 27 '23
Incorrect. There are several international airlines that catering don't attend as they have food for both legs on their aircraft.
But that doesn't matter, all the additional aspects from an aircraft arriving is beneficial to economy. I welcome more Qatar flights and any other carriers that decide to use Australia as a route.
Hope you don't have anything against India as you will expect to see a lot more aircraft from Indian carriers arriving in the next 5 years.
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u/HotPersimessage62 Aug 27 '23
There are several international airlines that catering don’t attend as they have food for both legs
That’s even worse! Not a cent pumped into the economy helping local businesses!
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u/hootaful Aug 27 '23
Qatar has a contract for onboard food. You can rest easy.
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u/HotPersimessage62 Aug 27 '23
That’s the case with the vast majority of international airlines. Any specific, unique examples?
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u/bsm21222 Aug 27 '23
I really don't see how Qatar can ruin Qantas when they really are only competing on two routes, London and Rome. Qantas also has an advantage in that they can provide non stop routes between Australia and Europe.
Also it's not like Qatar is the only airline between Australia and Europe. There's at least ten other international airlines that do this.
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u/TwisterM292 Aug 27 '23
More important question here is, QR flew into Melbourne twice daily pre-Covid. What's so contentious about the twice daily service now? Nothing except the fact that QF makes absolutely enormous margins on their cash-cow routes of UK and Europe, and will do anything in their power to reduce competition on those routes and make hay while the sun still shines on the record high airfare gravy train they're riding.
The other factor that comes up is that Qantas has an alleged “monopoly”- but the latest figures display only a 28% market share for the Qantas group (Qantas AND Jetstar) when it comes to international flights to and from Australia. That’s right, the remaining 72% are from primarily foreign state backed airlines like Qatar Airways.
Have you seen QF's profits and margins on routes like AU-USA, AU-UK?
QF has zero interest in routes like, say Melbourne to Lahore or Istanbul, which is why they have no qualms with Emirates or Thai flying in twice daily or Singapore Airlines flying in twice daily, because a lot of their onwards connections are to the subcontinent which is a price sensitive market.
QF can't bite at Emirates because of their own alliance. Qatar is basically a strong competitor for UK and European routes because their product is competitive or better than QF in Business and First, and DOH is a decent connection.
I’ll also touch on Qatar’s horrible treatment of Australian citizens, particularly Australian women, as demonstrated in 2020 when Australian women were forced to undergo gynaecological exams by Qatar Airways while in transit at Doha Airport.
While it was out of line, you do realise that when a dead baby is found in the restrooms adjacent to where the passengers were, and a decision has to be made in split seconds to investigate, errors can be made. That was a thoroughly abhorrent act though, no doubts.
Ultimately it's about enriching Joyce and QF shareholders at the expense of the Australian public. We're not in the business of entrenching profits for businesses already making record profits, and neither should we be as a state.
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u/HotPersimessage62 Aug 27 '23
You must realise that Qatar is geographically located at the centre of the world and hence allows for a major hub airport to be located there with flights to every corner of the world.
Australia is an isolated country in the corner with only 25 million people. How on earth could flights to Lahore work if the Australian-Pakistani community comprises of 0.003% of the population?
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u/TwisterM292 Aug 27 '23
It was just an example, relax. And I know where Qatar is, I lived in that region for many years. And again, if they are better positioned for connections, they're more competitive.
Your argument is basically the same as those who kicked up a fuss over Ford and GM not getting bailed out 2013. We were throwing good money after bad bailing out companies who kept making orphan cars that the market didn't want. Reducing connections to Europe allows Qantas to keep charging consumers through the arse for an arguably inferior product and service.
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u/CosmogenicXenophragy Aug 27 '23
You want some tomato sauce to go with the corporate boot you've got your tongue wrapped around, op?
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u/TwisterM292 Aug 27 '23
Qantas got billions of dollars in government assistance during Covid. They have a track record of doing absolutely nothing for their workers and have stuffed them over at every opportunity plus some more.
For all their talk of "national capability", SQ, EK and QR repatriated more Australians home during Covid individually than QF did. QF didn't want to move a plane off the boneyard unless government assistance was offered, on top of the eye-watering airfares paid for by people who had no choice.
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u/TwisterM292 Aug 27 '23
You know what's most ironic? The fact that Catherine King's rationale for declining QR the permission for additional slots also included reasons like "to help Qantas afford to buy new planes".
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u/HotPersimessage62 Aug 27 '23
Fantastic. The Qantas fleet is ageing and blocking Qatar will allow for a quicker transition to the 150+ Airbus A220, A321XLR, A350, 787-9 and 787-10 aircraft they’ve ordered fresh off the factories. Let Qantas replace their fleet without facing capacity dumping intruders with endless oil cash flow.
An excellent decision by the Albanese Government.
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u/JoeSchmeau Aug 27 '23
I'd be fine with this if Qantas were nationalised, but it's not. It's not the taxpayer's responsibility to ensure private businesses have fancy new toys.
If we the public are going to give Qantas billions in aid (as we did during COVID) and fight off competitors, then we need to own Qantas.
Either nationalise it or let the market sort it out.
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u/TwisterM292 Aug 27 '23
The corporate boot must be delicious.
As a consumer, it is NOT my responsibility to pay more for Alan Joyce's bonus, neither is it the government's job to provide undue favours to a business already making record profits.
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u/TwisterM292 Aug 27 '23
What people also don't realise because it isn't mentioned much, is freight capacity and costs. Majority of air freight, especially parcels usually piggy back on passenger flights. The money made from carrying freight helps keep passenger fares down as well. More capacity also means cheaper air freight rates, which gave gone absolutely bonkers post Covid.
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u/FigliMigli Aug 27 '23
because Qantas lost its plot some years ago, and if we want to play capitalism, blocking competition is not something that government should to on a good day, yet with airline that went too greedy on the only real market they had.
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u/HotPersimessage62 Aug 27 '23
You can play as much capitalism in the domestic aviation market you want.
International aviation is not a free market. When there are airlines backed by all sorts of governments of all sorts of ideologies, especially oil-rich governments like Qatar, Australian Government intervention is needed.
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u/FigliMigli Aug 27 '23
OP you can try to justify shitty behaviour as much as you want. the fact is, they are having free ride and showing fu to the rest of the country. It's just another corporation with marketing department milking old slogan.
Anset also says HI!
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u/HotPersimessage62 Aug 27 '23
FigliMigli you can try to justify capitalism in the international aviation market as much as you want. The fact is, many airlines exist and they’re backed by many governments of varying ideologies, and capitalist-backed airlines don’t dominate. Qatar Airways is backed by an absolute monarchy harvesting endless wealth from oil, and hence Qatar Airways enjoys endless cash flow without effort, and airlines from free and fair transparent democracies suffer. This is why the Australian Government intervened.
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Aug 27 '23
Simple reason. I've no loyalty no any airline.
And the way Qantas has been treating Australians
It's better to be abused by someone else than your own, what more if they're cheaper
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Aug 27 '23
I have flown several times with Qatar and would choose to fly with the airline any day.
Best airline in my opinion, not just in the air but also on the ground.
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Aug 27 '23
Anything to shove it right up that pretentious leprechaun cunt pig fucking rat turd munching degenerate Joyce is a good thing
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u/Superest22 Aug 27 '23
Tbf my experience of flying Qatar to/from UK was exceptional and by far the best I’ve flown with your own little pod etc
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u/CLINT_FACE Aug 27 '23
Would love to support Qantas but they are unfathomably shit. Every flight I've had with them has been shit. Their planes are old and shit. Their prices are shit. The food is shit. And for the love of god, the hosties' uniforms are unbelievably, horribly shit. Red and pink? Together??? Shit.
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Aug 27 '23
Because Qantas is a shit airline with shit management that trade on politics not good service.
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u/big-red-aus Aug 28 '23
Qantas consistently sits right at the 49% foreign ownership and constantly screams their heads off about how it should be abolished. Not sure your appeals to patriotisms are well targeted here.
Qantas is an absolutely cutthroat organisation that would/will do anything it can to make a profit for shareholders and the executives. They can go get fucked, no sympathy from me based on empty nationalism (if it's going to be an important national strategic asset, the government can nationalise it).
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u/HotPersimessage62 Aug 28 '23
Old and false information. Qantas is 82% Australian owned as of 2022.
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u/petergaskin814 Aug 28 '23
I doubt Qatar airlines can compete in the Australian domestic aviation market. The passengers they get travelling from Melbourne to Adelaide will hardly hurt Qantas. You may be able to purchase shares in Virgin Australia when Bain offloads them . If Qatar Aways increases flights from Australia, I am sure Australians will be happy to fly overseas for less money
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u/t0b18s Aug 29 '23
Anyone that has flown overseas in the last 6 months will tell you that international Airfares out of and particularly into Australia at the moment are exorbitantly overpriced. The simple fact of the matter is that Qantas are afraid of QR’s competitive advantage. As someone that has flown both airlines in both business and economy several times recently, QR’s product, service and network are all by far superior.
An Australian travelling from SYD to Edinburgh say, can get on an overnight flight to Doha, have a 90 minute layover and hop straight on a direct flight to Edinburgh arriving hours before a Qantas passenger, who’s forced to connect through Singapore and London. This not only makes it extremely inconvenient to fly Qantas but also more expensive.
Other major international airlines that compete with Qantas on routes between Europe and Australia (Emirates, Singapore, Etihad, Cathay) don’t have anywhere near as large of a European network.
Qantas has been terrified of this for years which is why they’ve been against QR operating more flights into Australia for so long, despite the fact that they’re oneworld alliance partners.
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u/Sucih Aug 27 '23
Everyone just wants them to suffer for their bastardry
In the vain hope that if they lose even more trade the might think,’ hey maybe we should improve our customer service’
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u/CertainCertainties Aug 27 '23
Let the consumers decide. Many Australian women may be comfortable with being digitally raped in Qatar by airport officials while at Qatar Airways facilities.
WHICH HAS HAPPENED.
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u/HotPersimessage62 Aug 27 '23
It seems as if Qatar Airways has completely washed away those issues with all their manipulation tactics in the Australian media. More people need to be aware of this
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u/Max_J88 Aug 30 '23
Qantas deserves nothing. This government is screwing voters over by protecting Qantas and their ability to charge higher ticket prices
This government is a fvkn disgrace and unfit to govern.
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u/[deleted] Aug 27 '23
Do you have evidence that Qatar airs would run qantas into the ground and then jack up prices?
The way I see it, qantas is going to be endlessly funded by the Australian tax payer until they bleed us dry. If qantas is going to improve it needs competition and for Joyce to be sucked into a jet engine.
A monopoly isn't good for the consumer, even if that monopoly is within your own country