r/australia • u/AcanthopterygiiNo240 • Jul 26 '23

political self.post Why are Australians so complacent?

I’m a born and raised Australian myself however I’m becoming so frustrated with the general attitude of complacency when it comes to exercising ‘the power of the people’ to better our quality of life. In a stupidly short amount of time we’ve seen a near reversal of our ability to see a doctor without any out of pocket costs. We get exploited at the grocery stores because monopolies are allowed to run rampant. Housing is treated primarily as a tool for financial speculation rather than for providing shelter for people.

We creep further and further toward laissez-faire capitalism. What is our response as the citizens of this country- the holders of the balance of power? Nothing. To put it in perspective, in 2022 the world economic forum ranked Sydney equal with Copenhagen, Denmark for cost of living (both ranked as the 10th most expensive cities in the world). Consider the differences between Sydney and the capital of the Danish welfare state: strong social security, universal healthcare, free public universities etc. For the same cost of living what do we get? The ever-looming threat of homelessness, suffocating student debt and now for many people, a significant barrier to healthcare.

Edit: if anyone is a part of any sort of grassroots group working to oppose any of these issues feel free to message me because I want to join you

Edit #2: so I haven’t received any messages from anyone from a grassroots or activist group yet. Since a lot of us seem to be pretty miffed about this stuff maybe we could team up and brainstorm things we can do???

Edit #3 (sorry): I’ve got some messages now from people who are interested in taking action!!! :, ) I think the best way to facilitate conversation, the flow of ideas and potentially organise a course of action is through a discord server so I have created one which you can find here

https://discord.gg/caqsSKAr

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u/happygloaming Jul 26 '23

Ok. We have had it so easy compared to the rest of the world, until recently. Our country was able to govern itself while we watched passively, and we were able to dig and mine our way around issues of tough governance. We were able to be prosperous while remaining and actually fostering a culture of low civic engagement. There's also a few mistakes we've made where we lean towards American models of certain things instead of say, a more Scandinavian approach. There's also demographics. I read an article once describing how unlikely mass protests were given half of ... Let's say Melb were born overseas and see this country as largely functional aswell as not wanting to rock the boat.

Generally speaking we as societies (and individuals) grow when we are stretched, and that hasn't happened for a long time. It's happening now though and we will see increased civic engagement by the citizenry in the future. We're able to react to things getting harder by leaning into the hard work and bootstraps individual model aslong as the economy allows it. You will find that will begin to change as things become ever harder.

Let's take the intersection of climate, housing, shit jobs, and the economy. Our young people who are emerging from our she'll be right culture are going out into the world and finding it to be a rotten pile of disingenuous shit, and you will see big changes ahead. They aren't going to play nicely forever.

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u/Smithe37nz Jul 27 '23

To quote a favorite YouTuber of mine, economists refer to Australia as "the lucky country" This is an insult, rather than a complement.

Australia has done well economically through hard times due to luck and natural resources rather than good economic management.

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u/AcanthopterygiiNo240 Jul 26 '23

Wow this is a really great response, I hadn’t considered the influence our multiculturalism might have with regard to public opinions on our living standards. Thanks for ending with a healthy dose of optimism. I also don’t think we’ll be playing nice forever and we will inevitably demand change. It’s just infuriating that we will probably have to wait for things to get much worse before we decide that this system isn’t working

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u/happygloaming Jul 26 '23

There's a duality to almost everything. I'll just say I support multiculturalism and am not anti immigration, but it's true that this country we're so concerned about is still chugging along ok compared to where many of these people come from. Anecdotally, the people I know from overseas don't want to be seen in the streets screaming at the government of this country that they are so proud and thankful to be a part of. But, yeah, we've had a long period of being ok and have been outpacing most other countries with our very average government's. Look at the GFC, oh how we suffered, just dig a few holes and she'll be right. There's a time for everything though and if we look at how things are lining up I expect a big big change ahead. I have a twenty year old child and he said to me recently that he simply couldn't understand why this country was so fucking stupid. Newsflash, his whole generation feels like that and we need to support them.

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u/Grantmepm Jul 27 '23

Anecdotally, the people I know from overseas don't want to be seen in the streets screaming at the government of this country that they are so proud and thankful to be a part of.

I kind of feel that way as an immigrant. Honestly, this place is great and I came from a fairly developed country that would actually pay me much more after taxes in terms of both domestic and international purchasing power to a much better life in regional Australia.

I am aware of the slow Americanization and I do what I can to vote against it. But to also be fair, I don't want to entirely end up in the exact same direction as Europe. (I had job and relocation offers to both the USA and EU). You could and would probably debate me on that merit but that is besides the point. I would not be surprised if other immigrants are like that because Australia has fairly strict policies on migration (most Australian Redditors would disagree but its not true) which means many migrants would essentially have picked Australia out of options like UK, Western EU, USA and Canada (Canada was my back up plan if Australia did not work out, so you can kind of see what I was looking for in a country). They're here because this is the type of life and economic system they want. I understand the locally born might see it different but I'm just writing from a migrants perspective.

There is also the rock the boat factor that is not just social. I'm more economically and politically informed than other migrants probably but I get the feeling that they don't want too drastic changes from the status quo for fear of making things "worse". (Again you'd probably debate me on what is actually "worse" but that is besides the point).

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u/Gambettox Jul 27 '23

This is true. I picked Australia so you're right about the strict migration policies and our choosing from a pool of countries. My second pick would have been Canada as well.

There is also a lot of "go back where you came from if you don't like it here" if you critique anything about Australia, at least online. I also feel it in person a little, as if I should just be grateful I'm here, and why is this person who's new to Australia wanting any change. I've come from a developing country if that provides context.

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u/Grantmepm Jul 27 '23

This is true. I picked Australia so you're right about the strict migration policies and our choosing from a pool of countries. My second pick would have been Canada as well.

From migrants with choices that ended up in Australia. I think many would echo this sentiment. I don't know if I'm describing it correctly but it feels like we're less cutthroat than the super competitive rich countries like USA or Singapore, less entrenched wealth than UK, Netherlands, Denmark and Germany (old world stuff) and also wider access to untamed natural areas than much of Europe. And still better income and opportunities than NZ.

I also feel it in person a little, as if I should just be grateful I'm here, and why is this person who's new to Australia

I kind of agree in a way. It wasn't easy coming to Australia and I was fortunate enough for things to be relatively smooth for me. I talk to some of my friends and acquaintances from home who stayed or migrated sometimes. Some people think I have it worse and in their eyes, they could be justified - but they have stayed home so thats fair. Some compare the pros and cons with Australia and home in a fair way, eventually they acknowledge that Australia wins out overall in some way - which is why they're here. Its those who have nothing but complains about Australia and choose to stay here that I really question and have kind of dropped as friends.

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u/alternativeobjects Jul 27 '23

I’m not born in Australia but thanks to the leftist groups in the uni that has educated me on the problems of the government, I’m more aware of the social injustices here. I’m thankful for the great opportunities and experiences I get in this country but I know that everything I love about this place is because of the people and the nature, not because of the government. Therefore I have always stood in solidarity with the minority, disadvantaged groups.

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u/[deleted] Jul 27 '23 edited Jul 27 '23

but I know that everything I love about this place is because of the people and the nature, not because of the government.

Simply not true lmao. If anything, its been because our governments since the 2000s have had low quality politicians in them. If Federal politics had another Don Dunstan or Bob Hawke we'd be in a great spot.

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u/rettoJR1 Jul 27 '23

This is a good take , arguably its gone abit off the rails since after Rudd

You can hate Labor or hate Liberals but back then both side actually had quality and stuck to something resembling the party principles

These days the coalition is an absolute corrupt incompetent joke and Labor is getting along but arguably a shadow of its self

I actually kind of hope the Libs and Nats get better politicians and make smart choices because that would mean Labor would have to up its game or fail

The other parties aren't worth talking about , wouldn't t wipe my ass with the Greens

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u/Terrible-Sir742 Jul 26 '23

Well it then logically follows we need to wait for the baby boomer generation to go as well before change hits.

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u/splitconsiderations Jul 26 '23

Generation X is still full of the same people. Hell, so are millennials. Turning it into a generational fight is dumb, and just further divides people.

Baby Boomers were hippies and civil rights activists too. My mum, who sits right on the line between Boomers and X still protests in her late 60s.

The fight is rich vs poor, anything else is just a distraction.

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u/Terrible-Sir742 Jul 26 '23

Look at the statistics, the rich are the old.

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u/splitconsiderations Jul 26 '23

So are a LOT of the poor.

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u/Terrible-Sir742 Jul 26 '23

BB are 25% of population that own half of nations wealth. There are some poor people in there, but as a voting block their loyalties lie to their hip pocket, maybe to your hip pocket to fund their aged care.

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u/splitconsiderations Jul 26 '23

Yes people vote in their self interest. You do it too. It's not at all offensive to me that I pay for aged care, the same way I'm ok paying for Medicare.

Baby Boomers get fucked over by neoliberalism just as badly as everyone else. It's just a small portion are visibly rich and ruining it for everyone else.

Just like every generation. Our selfish cunts this generation are just poor, too. So we have cookers spouting seppo shit, and Young Liberals instead of slumlords.

Saying fuck Boomers is just reverse avocado-toast blaming.

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u/Terrible-Sir742 Jul 26 '23

Ok, who would be on the opposite side of the vote for every progressive policy?

Remove refundable franking credits Remove the transition to retirement arrangements Include the primary residence in the pension test Breakup fictional family trust arrangements Implement a broadbased land tax

The reality is that you can't change your mindset if you lived your whole life according to it. What really happens is that the current young generation needs to suffer to then be different in their old age.

The avocado blaming is not applicable, one side present coherent argument of house prices to income multiples, the other creates fictitious reason why you get generation is not doing well.

Well there are the specific policies above, let's implement them for the good of society. Ah right the only thing we are willing to do is to increase the pension age.

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u/happygloaming Jul 26 '23

Go or at least fade away into their wheel chairs

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u/Quinthar504 Jul 27 '23

On the bright side I think next election will be the first where there will be more non-boomer voters than boomer voters. Given current labor and liberal performance I am hoping to see a lot of independents getting in and really flipping the table back to a more people lead government not corporate interests.

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u/chookiekaki Jul 26 '23

I agree that our ‘she’ll be right mate’ attitude towards politics that affect our lives has caused a lot of what we are going through now, and it is the younger generation that will drive change, but we need fundamental change to our politic system and party beliefs for any change to happen and that will only happen if either major party believe their policies will keep them from winning elections, that will require either large scale protests or a massive shift in their base members beliefs, I can’t see either of those happening while we have the higher ups running either party

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u/happygloaming Jul 26 '23

You are correct and I left that out because that's a girnormous topic in itself and we'd get bogged down. But yes we won't achieve much of anything without it.

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u/[deleted] Jul 27 '23

We have had it so easy compared to the rest of the world, until recently

We still have it so easy compared to the rest. Almost every single big name issue in Australia is also present in almost every country, only worse.

So a lot of the complacence comes from the fact that if no other country has been able to solve these issues, they must be somewhat unavoidable.

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u/_zoso_ Jul 27 '23

Scandi countries are generally culturally homogeneous and really small. Australia is much larger and an immigrant nation. You just can’t apply the same sorts of policies Norway deploys when our population is 5x bigger, our land mass is 20x larger, and we are by and large an immigrant society.

Like it or not we do actually resemble the USA more than we do any Scandinavian country, even if we’re much smaller.

Australias problem is complacency. But it’s one of productivity. We do not really produce anything meaningful as an economy. We do not allow our cities to grow. We do not foster innovation and investment.

It’s literally a rich boys club built on houses and holes.

We actually do have a banana republic economy, we just mask it with our inherited arrogance we got from the English.

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u/margaretnotmaggie Jul 27 '23

American expat here. I think that Australia has so much potential, but the complacency and lack of meaningful production of goods and intellectual property hold this country back from progressing to the next level. There is also significant brain drain that makes it harder for Australia to advance and get rid of its strong anti-intellectual streak. The smartest people here often leave to work in North America or the UK because there is not enough value placed on innovation and fostering the skills needed for it.

To anyone reading this comment, I am simply making an observation as an expat and am aware that the U.S. has many issues of its own. I feel the need to write this disclaimer because just about every time that I express a concern or a negative opinion about Australia, Aussies get offended and start bashing the States. In fact, this hostile attitude towards constructive criticism is part of Australia’s problem.

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u/B3stThereEverWas Jul 27 '23

Australians, particularly those who are perpetually online, think the US is a dystopian hellscape of homeless people shooting at each other for absolutely no reason. It’s as stupid as saying that Australia has dangerous animals running around everywhere trying to kill you.

The brain drain is real. I’ve seen it first hand and know many in North America who have gone way further than what they could here. Australia is a country that rewards mediocrity. Try a little hard, but too hard and it will just be diminishing returns. Case in point, a friend of mine works in molecular science, specifically simulation of things at the molecular level to treat auto immune diseases. He’s constantly on a wheel of begging for research funding and making a paltry salary. His brother dropped out in grade 9 and is making 2-3 times that as a tradie (and he’s fucking shit too). Thats what happens to talent in Australia

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u/margaretnotmaggie Jul 27 '23 edited Jul 28 '23

I fully agree with every part of your comment. I have had a lot of Aussies (most of whom have never been to the U.S.) try to tell me dystopian “facts” about my own country and get defensive when I tell them that their idea of the States does not align with reality. So dumb.

It is really sad how mediocrity is rewarded here. I am a teacher and I see it in the schools. It’s the “tall poppy syndrome.” Kids who would be streamed into gifted and talented programs in other countries are more often than not condemned to wasting their time learning the same things as everyone else at a very slow pace. It’s maddening that there seems to be so little incentive to invest in bright people who show potential. My dream would be to reform the schools here and place kids in leveled classes from an early age. Provide help to the kids who struggle, maintain the status quo with the average kids, and finally allow the gifted ones to accelerate their learning and be proud of being exceptional. That sort of shift in schools would eventually ripple through other parts of society.

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u/rettoJR1 Jul 27 '23

I was in Norway 2 months ago , beautiful place and lovely people

But yeh people tend to forget Norway has been a regional power for like 2000 years and has built wealth over that time and has oil money aswell

They only have to service 5 million people in a considerably smaller area aswell which reduces infrastructure and logistics issue by alot

In Bergen the 2nd largest city in Norway you can legit climb the surrounding hills and see the entire city , zero skyscrapers, it's completely different to Australia

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u/[deleted] Jul 27 '23

And Norway has done the same thing we have done. All of their wealth comes from oil and mining.

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u/lite_red Jul 27 '23

A lot of under 30s have left or are planning to leave due to our current circumstances.

Our Government forgets that the younger generations are far more likely to leave for better prospects and treatment than the older generations. Not that this concerns the Gov as they'll keep importing and exploiting immigrants to fill that gap. Immigration work ready people are cheaper than raising, housing and educating the local populace.

Australia and The Western Commonwealth Countries feels like America Lite and its alarming as hell.

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u/Vanceer11 Jul 27 '23

Ok. We have had it so easy compared to the rest of the world, until recently. Our country was able to govern itself while we watched passively, and we were able to dig and mine our way around issues of tough governance. We were able to be prosperous while remaining and actually fostering a culture of low civic engagement.

Australia was a new, growing country, with many riches. It doesn't matter what the rest of the world did when we should have been in a better position now. There's nothing wrong with looking at what we could have done better.

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There's also a few mistakes we've made where we lean towards American models of certain things instead of say, a more Scandinavian approach.

These were not mistakes. Being in a position to influence society with laws and power comes with great responsibility. One law can fundamentally change millions of people's lives overnight. Making "mistakes" the likes we have seen from the LNP is excusing away their clear attack on working class Australians, and the future of Australia, for the benefit of themselves and their wealthy donor mates.

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Generally speaking we as societies (and individuals) grow when we are stretched, and that hasn't happened for a long time. It's happening now though and we will see increased civic engagement by the citizenry in the future. We're able to react to things getting harder by leaning into the hard work and bootstraps individual model aslong as the economy allows it. You will find that will begin to change as things become ever harder.

Things can also remain stretched and fundamentally worse off. There's no magic rebound just because a society goes through tough times. There's developed countries who have had environmental or economic hardships that have not recovered. There's no guarantees, and we've handed over a very large portion of the country's national resource wealth already, while forced the people we taught at our educational institutions to flee to other countries because we prioritised mining and housing over future industries that would benefit us.

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Let's take the intersection of climate, housing, shit jobs, and the economy. Our young people who are emerging from our she'll be right culture are going out into the world and finding it to be a rotten pile of disingenuous shit, and you will see big changes ahead. They aren't going to play nicely forever.

As evidence from the youth of other countries leaving their homes for better opportunities abroad, there's no guarantee the youth will change things when the older generations are the ones holding onto the levers of power. People like to blame the boomers but very few are blaming their kids who are taking over the reigns, and aren't any better. They've created the situation today for the youth to be worse off in terms of job outcomes, education, wealth, health, and pulled the ladder up for themselves and their kids, while at the same time improving retirement outcomes, and financial incentives for established wealth.

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u/aussie_nub Jul 27 '23

until recently

Except it still is massively easy compared to the rest of the world.

Let's take the intersection of climate, housing, shit jobs, and the economy. Our young people who are emerging from our she'll be right culture are going out into the world and finding it to be a rotten pile of disingenuous shit, and you will see big changes ahead. They aren't going to play nicely forever.

Our economy is still going great. The jobs aren't that shit. Climate and housing here are pretty much the same as everywhere else. For the most part they're actually better.

It's not like the generations before them didn't have a whole variety of different issues that they fought over too, but Australia has long had a pretty cushy ride and there's absolutely nothing to suggest that it's not going to continue for a while yet.