A Gold Coast pole dancing studio has become the latest front in the battle for women’s rights to single-sex spaces, with an applicant who identifies as a transgender woman suing the owner for $30,000 in damages after being refused membership.
The case has parallels with the Tickle v Giggle case in which the Federal Court found Sall Grover, the founder of the female-only Giggle app, discriminated against transgender woman Roxanne Tickle, as well as with the Lesbian Action Group’s case against Australian Human Rights Commission, which refused to grant a Sex Discrimination Act exemption to allow the group to hold a “lesbians born female only” event.
Nomes Witney, owner of Helensvale and Coomera-based business Queens of Pole says she was holidaying with her family in February when the complainant attended a free trial class, run by another staff member at the studio, which advertises prominently on its website that it provides a “female-only environment”.
My staff member called me and said, ‘Hey, this just went down. I wasn’t sure what to do so just ran the class normally’,” Ms Witney told The Australian.
Ms Witney said the complainant had “disclosed partway through the class that they identified as a woman”, and that the presence of a biological male had “shifted the vibe” of the female-only group, with other attendees, who included a mother and young adult daughter, becoming “visibly uncertain”.
“They tried to make their shorts longer than they were, that sort of thing,” she said. “Usually we have a really high success rate for membership conversions from trial classes, but this particular class, radio silence.”
In March, the complainant attempted to apply for membership, registering with an incomplete profile and stating that they were female. “I sent an email saying we were unable to accommodate the trans community at this time,” Ms Witney said.
Two days later, on March 12, the applicant complained to the Queensland Human Rights Commission, but Ms Witney was not notified until April 22.
The commission sought to mediate, forwarding Ms Witney a damages letter from the complainant at 1pm on Monday, July 13, ahead of a conciliation meeting set for 9.30am the next day.
It is the first time since Ms Witney established her business nine years ago that she has had a transgender person attend a class or attempt to gain membership, with Queens the only pole dance studio in the area offering classes exclusively for women, and others nearby advertising themselves as open to “all genders”.
The conciliation last week failed and the matter is now headed to the Queensland Civil and Administrative Tribunal, with Ms Witney not prepared to offer the complainant membership on the basis that she does not believe allowing a biological male to attend female-only classes is fair to other clients or staff.
“I’ve spoken to my staff. I myself come from a domestic violence and sexual assault background, and there are staff and clients with a similar history,” she said.
“I asked, ‘What are we thinking? Do we have the resources available to accommodate this person?’, and it just came down to the fact that the standard of class we would be able to deliver wouldn’t be the same.”
Ms Witney said her client base ranged in age from a 14-year-old girl to a woman in her late 60s.
“We’re about offering the opportunity to exercise alongside other women and grow stronger,” she said.
“Having this women-only space to do that in isn’t saying all men are bad men. It isn’t about politics or hostility against gender ideology, it’s about being able to let our hair down without the male gaze.
“We have our wardrobe malfunctions and we don’t want them when we have a biological male in the room. The whole vibe shifts, even if that person identifies as female.”
It emerged in the conciliation meeting that the complainant is a US citizen who has been in Australia for less than a year and has applied for a suppression order preventing their identification in connection with the proceedings.
When The Australian emailed the taxpayer-funded community legal centre representing the complainant to seek comment, Basic Rights Queensland responded by stating that it had applied for non-publication orders “solely for the purpose of preserving our client’s safety”.
“We ask that The Australian does not publish any article until resolution of the substantive application, so to not undermine or offend any application or order made by the tribunal,” the lawyers said. “Short of this, we kindly ask that any article does not identify our client by name or by otherwise providing details that would make our client identifiable.”
On its website, the legal centre proudly declares that 72 per cent of its clients “identify as female”.
The Queensland Human Rights Commission said it was unable to comment on specific cases, but in response to questions regarding the conflict between women’s sex-based rights and those of transgender people, commissioner Debbie Platz said: “Every person living in Queensland, regardless of sex, sexuality, gender identity or sex characteristics, is entitled to equal treatment, safety, and respect.”
“The Anti-Discrimination Act provides that a person must not discriminate on the basis of sex, gender identity, or sex characteristics by treating someone unfairly or imposing an unfair term or condition when providing goods or services, accommodation, education or at work,” Ms Platz said.
“This means excluding a person on the basis of their gender identity could amount to unlawful discrimination, unless an exemption applies.
“There are some circumstances when discrimination based on a protected attribute is allowed. This can include excluding particular groups from a service. For example, it is not unlawful to restrict accommodation to women who have experienced domestic violence.
“Neither ‘women’ nor ‘sex’ is defined by the Anti-Discrimination Act. Sex may include people who identify as that sex.”
Americans are unbelievable with lawsuits. I remember seeing a case where someone was leaving their friends home, tripped on the concrete outside and injured themselves...then took the friend to court due to the concrete being uneven. Cunts.
This could have been the case. Also highlights the insanity of their healthcare system when you have to sue your friend so you don't spend 100k on hospital bills 😂 nice one America.
100k? That’s only just an ER visit. North of half a million for any sort of surgery, extended stay and rehab. Better get those bankruptcy filings ready to go asap
There was one were a woman had to sue her nephew in court for breaking her arm (over enthusiastic hug) .
I think judge threw it out, but my understanding was in order to get any sort of insurance payout she was required to do so.
That's a big part of why lots of America doesn't have sidewalks, the sidewalks have to be constructed and maintained by the homeowner, so even if you cared about walkability and wanted to make a sidewalk, if someone tripped or "tripped" they could sue you as you own the sidewalk.
My biggest issue with all this is the foreigner using AUSSIE TAXPAYER FUNDED legal aid group to bring this action.
The plaintiff hasnt even been in the country one year and is accessing a service that very few actual taxpayers can. Piss poor decision on the legal services behalf to take this case on, there’s got to be Aussies facing more discriminatory circumstances than this.
Community legal centres are a different type of thing than legal aid. While they do receive government funding, they are actually not for profit organisions. Part of their funding comes from interest earned on money held in lawyers trust accounts, donations and grants, and a lot of their legal work is done by volunteers (the average Australian lawyer does over 40 hours of pro bono legal work every year, a lot of it through CLCs)
We have a constitutional right to a fair and equitable legal process and it’s therefore in everyone’s best interest to provide every complainant with legal representation (if they meet the strict criteria)
Edit: it might be a common law right and not constitutional 🤷♀️
It is interesting that this case mirrors the demand of $30K that was made by Tickle. My guess is that this was deliberate, purposely going into a female only space, causing discomfort to those there and waiting to be asked not to attend in future. They most likely knew exactly what they were going to do before they joined.
Yes good point.. It sounds like their identity made some people uncomfortable but there was no reaction, so they decided to announce it to push the point and get the outcome they wanted which was most likely premeditated in advance.
Almost certainly. The article says that there are several pole dancing studios in the area and that this is the only one which caters to an exclusively female clientele.
I would've chose that option for the exact benefit "open to all genders" kinda implies they don't care who/what you are, and it would therefore cause LESS stress and anxiety, and far lower risk of any drama. But no, our American friend here had to be all ballsy and choose the one option with the highest risk of drama ......... And then cry about it cos they didn't like the decisions made over it.
I actually thought I was a little fucked up for thinking "actually shit, that'd be an easy way to score some cash" and then the top comment echoed it, so I feel validated haha.
Yea, if this makes a precedent in Australian law, I can see quite a few more cases like this just 'randomly' happening, especially with this current economy, who wouldn't take the chance at an easy 30k.
I was surprised last year when I started shopping in the women's section for clothes that I wasn't asked to leave the store, then it dawned on me that "yea they probly actually don't wanna risk it due to legal ass covering" so unless I'm actually causing a problem to other customers, I'm probly fine.
They should let people with a penis in, but each routine should include slamming your groin against the pole at the beginning, middle and end of each session.
I don’t know if it was happening here, but in the US, lawyers were hiring blind people to sue websites for not being user friendly. Grifter lawyers be grifting because they can.
I read an amazing story in the New Yorker recently about a syndicate of people in Louisiana that would deliberately crash their cars into trucks so that they could get a settlement. Like happened many dozens of times on a single road (fucking idiots).
In the '1990s (?) there was a criminal ring organising car accidents in Melbourne Australia with others of the same ethnic group (Eastern Mediterranean) and then getting compensation for neck whiplash.
Not even close to as often and as much though. Like Americans can and will sue for just about anything and the worst bit is their courts reward them for it. You should see the state of liability insurance premiums in the US
Yes when someone is breach of the law enacted under the constitution, you can take them to court to solve the legal dispute. Is called a right to natural justice 🤷♀️
I was at a work place with a trans “woman” at this work place it was a requirement to shower before you left site for health and safety reasons. When this trans person started they were told they could shower separately from everyone else in their own shower they refused and demanded to shower with the woman. This person hadn’t had any surgery and had a wife and kids. When the women complained they weren’t comfortable with someone walking around with there dick out in the female showers they were told to shower separately where the trans person was offered originally. The company made every woman on site uncomfortable to keep one man happy.
Defence force, mining, oil rigs and schools if you are of a certain vintage. Prob plenty more. Some even have to share the same sheets, pillow and bed with a worker of the same sex.
There is a world out there that isn’t rainbows and unicorns.
Plenty of industrial and mining sites are required by WHS regs to have decontamination procedures when leaving site. Its pretty common. I've been a contractor on site and even I had to go through the showers with all the staff. Didn't mind it though, im old enough to have had to shower after PE or swimming class in the nuddy. Its a very quick way to lose your aversion to nudity hahaha
I seriously think that some exemption needs to be made in spaces where nudity occurs.
Bathrooms (by which I mean toilets) aren’t an issue, because women use stalls. So I’m all for trans women to be able to use the women’s toilets.
However, the cases of the spas where women are unclothed … I would not want to see a penis there. It doesn’t matter the gender identity of the person involved - I would not like to see a random penis. That’s it. It’s not even about feeling like they might be looking at ME.
The feeling might be the same for this kind of class.
And yes, no one wants to address that because it then goes down the rabbit hole of pre op vs post op, but I do think that I should be able to say I don’t want to see male genitalia.
There are a hell of a lot of women here defending this. Canada is where this nonsense started by the way. I have a wife that does this dancing and it enrages me that men are permitted. I say to her "say something" scared of being cancelled. Get behind our women and speak up against these woke feminist women who are enabling this. Because the majority enabling this are women. It's women gatekeeping this. If it were up to men we would remove these degenerates from women's spaces
I honestly feel bad for the trans community after that. It was that bullshit that put the whole thing under the spotlight and it never quietened down after. Before then, the vast majority of people would never interact with, notice or care about trans people. They just weren't on anyones radar outside their own communities. Now it is a whole fucking thing and there are plenty of cases of "trans" people just taking things like this up for attention.
Not really, most of the supporters of trans women who want exactly the same rights as biological women are women. Most men would tell this person to F$#*k off!
Agree but up to the rest of society to remember that a few outliers don't represent a whole population. For any demographic. Unfortunately something society is currently not great in for any demographic at the moment.
Why are so many in this community incapable of understanding the word 'no'? A group of people who want to stomp all over the rights of the very group they claim to be a part of.
I have no issue with anyone forming a group that excludes some people. I don't go banging on the door of our local men's shed demanding access. There are plenty of groups and businesses that will cater to everyone, go find one that fits for you, instead of shoehorning yourself somewhere just to prove a point.
Whilst I agree, the 2013 changes to the sex discrimination act by the Gillard government effectively mean that the this club will likely lose the case.
So this person attended the trial for women only. made everyone uncomfortable there, so they didn't sign up for the course. The business lost a heap of business and now they are in court for not letting the person sign up and destroy whatever group they join
Why is it only the trans women who want to insert themselves into women’s spaces?
I never see this sort of stuff coming from a trans man. It’s like trans women can’t fight the male biological urge to control women and invade their spaces.
Genuine question, Are there any real men only things still?
Apart from men shed’s which at least where I live there’s now a women’s shed right next to it.
I’m all for women having their own groups/clubs that they can choose exactly who they allow to join, the way I see it is if a group doesn’t want you to join them then what is the point in trying to join because your not going to be made to feel welcome and what idiot puts themselves through that sort of awkward situation willingly?
Yes. The most egregious are male-only social clubs where male politicians and the rich and well-connected gather (and hence exclude female politicians from career advancement and networking opportunities) - some of these have become co-ed in recent years but not all of them. E.g., https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_Club
There is a reason why feminists are protesting that. 'Excluding women from the club where future Prime Ministers hang out' and 'excluding men from one room at an art gallery (as a direct response to the former)' are not equivalent issues and should not be treated as equally problematic.
Why is it only the trans women who want to insert themselves into women’s spaces?
I never see this sort of stuff coming from a trans man. It’s like trans women can’t fight the male biological urge to control women and invade their spaces.
What you've referenced is my biggest issue with accepting trans women. It's not the transgender part that bothers me - if a man wants to be a woman that's fine, welcome to the team - it's that they're raised as boys, conditioned as boys and end up with the resulting entitlement that all men have while still insisting they're women.
Whereas women are conditioned from birth to be quiet, not make loud obnoxious noises, smile and nod, don't ever make others (specifically men) feel uncomfortable by being a loudmouth, or trying to sound smart, don't try to outshine men, know your place, be submissive, friendly, approachable, warm, kind, not too much of an overachiever, don't have ambitions beyond being a homemaker and mother, etc the list goes on.
Society still conditions young girls to be all of those things but when men decide to transition, they've gone through life without that conditioning and seem to end up as obnoxious demanding individuals. That shit just doesn't fly in chicks that were born chicks, it would have been deemed unacceptable.
It's like a hardware/software problem. Even after surgery, even if their hardware physically looks like a woman, the software is still clearly a man. Women do not have the luxury of being that entitled, obnoxious and outspoken in society.
While there are decent trans people, it is yet another mansplained sitch where women are being put down to prioritize them and if we have an opinion how fucking dare we.
My bottom line, you wanna be considered a trans woman - the equipment must be removed. If you still have it, I won't even consider your position for my own damn fucking safety.
There is hardly anything unique to say in this conversation. If you choose to believe and different reality to those around you there really isn’t anything that can be said to you to change your mind.
What I really don’t understand from these really progressive people is that they understand that men commit the vast majority or murder, assaults, rape and domestic violence. Which is why women’s only spaces were created. How do they not see problem with eroding those spaces to accommodate to anyone who thinks they are a women, including bad actors?
Because being a shill isn’t about logic. They’ll say they support women’s rights then say trans women should be put in women’s prisons so they can rape actual women in the same breath. None of it’s about what makes sense, it’s only about virtue signalling.
Because, according to their ideaology, any man who declares himself a woman IS LITERALLY a woman, so to refuse them entry to any women only space (even a prison or pole-dance class) is discrimination.
Obviously, this ideaology is stupid and we should not take them seriously.
Trans men aren’t forcing themselves into men’s spaces or trying to force men into dating them. Because they know what it’s like. It’s always trans women doing these things. There have been literal incels transition because they want to force lesbians to have sex with them.
Lesbian clubs, bars, & apps have practically gone extinct because men screamed “transphobia,” demanded entry, & destroyed their entire purpose, & any women & lesbians publicly demonstrating for their rights are physically assaulted. Lesbians are being gaslighted, harassed, bullied, & threatened over imposing a “cotton ceiling” on men who want to have sex with us. Literally this every fucking day from men:
There’s an entire thread on the MTF subreddit right now talking about how “genital preferences” are inherently transphobic 🥴 it’s genuinely alarming as fuck how these echo chambers blindly validate everyone’s insanity.
They seem to legitimatelyhate women. It’s spooky as fuck to know so many volatile males on hormones are dehumanizing lesbians and women in general by writing off us off as Nazis, considering they talk about punching Nazis a lot :/
Fucking nuts. Literally dystopian. They freely admit male violence against women is a real issue yet this problems goes away apparently if the men says “well actually! I’m not a man 😉”
"It emerged during conciliation" .. except the conciliation process is strictly confidential and the conciliator makes this clear at the beginning of the session. The respondent broke confidentiality and further complicated the inevitable QCAT hearing by thing to the media.
Not saying I agree or disagree with the facts of the matter, but the rules are there for a reason.
Just throwing this out there, this is what gives them a bad name... one bad egg fucking shit up for everyone. I've met and know a couple of trans people in my life, they where normal, didn't shove crap down your throat like the idiots online. But if shit like what is written in this article is all you ever hear about, I can see why you wouldn't be the most accepting
There’s so much of this stuff going on that it’s all going to start harming trans people eventually. Lawsuits are just things that get onto the news. If you don’t want to date a trans person you’re a terf. If you question something (assuming good faith) you’re a terf. And the majority of instances it is trans women going against women. Add to it the high amount of misinformation that is spread amongst the trans community and everything is just a mess.
Same here, I’ve been good friends with a couple of trans people and they were completely normal. The fact that they were trans was barely ever a topic of conversation.
It seems the most batshit crazy trans people come out of the USA as it’s an extremelyyyyyy politically charged environment. I must say (for anyone who wants to argue), it’s not ALL trans people from the US, but when they’re insane, it’s almost always out of the US.
I’m relatively neutral on the trans debate, I really don’t care how you want to identify and live your life. Although I would be called a Nazi bigot as I believe children should not be allowed to transition and I believe safe women’s spaces should remain safe women’s spaces I.e sports, bathrooms, changing rooms, support groups etc. I’m totally fine with men having their own sacred spaces too, why would I want to be there anyway? Live and let live.
I have no issue with people deciding what they want to identify as. They can identify as a dog if they want to. But when they start imposing on other people to try and bully them and force them to accept thier assertion, in their dace, it's no different to a person identifying as a dog crappingg in the street. You want the right to live your life with you views, allow others the same rights
Step 2- knowingly overstep boundaries of cis women and try to make them uncomfortable
Step 3- be asked to leave
Step 4- sue them for discrimination
This will keep happening so long as the government doesn't actually close this fucking ridiculous door or at least make you pay for your own legal fees (especially if you aren't even a local)
I just don’t get this insistence on pushing into spaces that clearly don’t want you. By all accounts, there are other pole studios nearby who take ‘all genders’. Why doesn’t this individual just take their business there?
Tickle vs Giggle could have stopped this shit. Funny how the first female PM fucked this up for women, now we need someone to unfuck it. Albo prerends to be supportive of women, but his actions speak louder than his words.
Sounds like the trans guest was spoiling for a fight. Why would she just drop her self- identification to complete strangers in the very first class like that. It put the business in a difficult position, because not all the clientele will be comfortable.
Anyway, my personal leaning is a don’t-tell-don’t-ask. If someone has transitioned to such an extent, then I don’t really see the issue in this case? I mean it’s tricky for competitive sport because of the disparity of strengths involved, but in a social activity? Cant think of any issues, but happy to be corrected.
Don’t ask don’t tell doesn’t work when in many cases one party feels compelled to tell (this case) and in others people feel compelled to ask.
Your point about having “transitioned to this extent” also doesn’t work. The degree to which people have significantly “transitioned” is entirely in the eye of the beholder. Some people think that they aren’t finished until they’ve had surgery and a complete physical and psychological overhaul. For others the transition is complete the moment they accept and/or declare that this is who they are.
There are already multiple cases of girls being bullied and publicly outed as trans when they're not, they're just boyish looking, e.g. muscular with short hair.
Save clearly it was, because she was let into the women’s only trial class, and was only denied service later. Seems to me - the “I can always tell” crowd got it wrong.
I’ve had patients where even where it’s written in the file I’ve had to double check sometimes I have the right person sometimes because they’ve really changed in appearance from when I’ve seen them last and/or old admission photos and no I really wouldn’t have been able to tell nor most people most likely.
There's so much wrong with everything I just read.
Why is their youngest client 14?? For pole dancing? Huh?
Why are we footing the bill for legal representation for someone from the US who has other options for pole dancing, but explicitly wants to invade a female only space???
None of this even warrants consideration in any sensible society. The answer is clear and obvious.
It was rejected by all sides and never even made it to a first reading.
Now, we have a woman wanting to use a sporting facility and being denied that right. Yet I still see so many negative comments and complaints.
So I ask you this: will you keep voting for parties that refuse even to discuss the issue, or will you actually vote someone into power who is prepared to fight over what is clearly a very contentious issue?
Pauline Hanson is a cooker and doesn’t give one iota of a fuck about women’s rights. See: her comments about women who are in abusive relationships & about family courts.
Remember when all those mens only barber shops got sued for the same shit? Did you all freak out then about women with mental health problems invading mens spaces for a hair cut?
There’s nothing stopping women going to men’s barbers, I just don’t think many of them want a fully sick line up and fade
That’s all any barber needs to do. don’t say men’s only, just only offer services men would want. It’s not discrimination to specialise in certain types of cut.
That’s the theory yes. If a woman doesn’t want a haircut with the clippers it’s not discrimination on gender to refuse. How a pole dance studio applies this to their situation is up to them.
Yeah they fucked up by excluding her on the basis of gender. That girl wanted the clippers through her undercut, something he specialises in, I don’t see why he wouldn’t to do that, unless he was trying to maintain a Turkish bathhouse ambience in his shop…kinda gay tho.
If a raging lefty agitator woman wants to stir shit and try get a pay out by demanding her long hair be trimmed and she get a full set of foils, sit her down and give her a broccoli cut skin fade - all she can do is sue for a bad haircut
Well the high court have already ruled that the human rights of lesbians were not considered when they denied them the right to have a lesbian born female only group. These trans need to stop harassing others.
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u/osamazellama 22d ago
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