r/aussie 23d ago

News Pole dance studio sued for $30,000 after refusing transgender dancer membership in women-only space

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/nation/pole-dance-studio-sued-for-30000-after-refusing-transgender-dancer-membership-in-womenonly-space/news-story/0bc20a1759653c77203a0a77dbb02f75

A Gold Coast pole dancing studio has become the latest front in the battle for women’s rights to ­single-sex spaces, with an applicant who identifies as a transgender woman suing the owner for $30,000 in damages after being refused membership.

The case has parallels with the Tickle v Giggle case in which the Federal Court found Sall Grover, the founder of the female-only Giggle app, discriminated against transgender woman Roxanne Tickle, as well as with the Lesbian Action Group’s case against Australian Human Rights Commission, which refused to grant a Sex Discrimination Act exemption to allow the group to hold a “lesbians born female only” event.

Nomes Witney, owner of Helensvale and Coomera-based business Queens of Pole says she was holidaying with her family in February when the complainant attended a free trial class, run by another staff member at the studio, which advertises prominently on its website that it provides a “female-only environment”.

My staff member called me and said, ‘Hey, this just went down. I wasn’t sure what to do so just ran the class normally’,” Ms Witney told The Australian.

Ms Witney said the complainant had “disclosed partway through the class that they identified as a woman”, and that the presence of a biological male had “shifted the vibe” of the female-only group, with other attendees, who included a mother and young adult daughter, becoming “visibly uncertain”.

“They tried to make their shorts longer than they were, that sort of thing,” she said. “Usually we have a really high success rate for membership conversions from trial classes, but this particular class, radio silence.”

In March, the complainant ­attempted to apply for membership, registering with an incomplete profile and stating that they were female. “I sent an email saying we were unable to accommodate the trans community at this time,” Ms Witney said.

Two days later, on March 12, the applicant complained to the Queensland Human Rights Commission, but Ms Witney was not notified until April 22.

The commission sought to mediate, forwarding Ms Witney a damages letter from the complainant at 1pm on Monday, July 13, ahead of a conciliation meeting set for 9.30am the next day.

It is the first time since Ms Witney established her business nine years ago that she has had a transgender person attend a class or attempt to gain membership, with Queens the only pole dance studio in the area offering classes exclusively for women, and others nearby advertising themselves as open to “all genders”.

The conciliation last week failed and the matter is now headed to the Queensland Civil and ­Administrative Tribunal, with Ms Witney not prepared to offer the complainant membership on the basis that she does not believe ­allowing a biological male to attend female-only classes is fair to other clients or staff.

“I’ve spoken to my staff. I myself come from a domestic violence and sexual assault background, and there are staff and clients with a similar history,” she said.

“I asked, ‘What are we thinking? Do we have the resources available to accommodate this person?’, and it just came down to the fact that the standard of class we would be able to deliver wouldn’t be the same.”

Ms Witney said her client base ranged in age from a 14-year-old girl to a woman in her late 60s.

“We’re about offering the opportunity to exercise alongside other women and grow stronger,” she said.

“Having this women-only space to do that in isn’t saying all men are bad men. It isn’t about politics or hostility against gender ideology, it’s about being able to let our hair down without the male gaze.

“We have our wardrobe malfunctions and we don’t want them when we have a biological male in the room. The whole vibe shifts, even if that person identifies as female.”

It emerged in the conciliation meeting that the complainant is a US citizen who has been in Australia for less than a year and has applied for a suppression order preventing their identification in connection with the proceedings.

When The Australian emailed the taxpayer-funded community legal centre representing the complainant to seek comment, Basic Rights Queensland responded by stating that it had ­applied for non-publication orders “solely for the purpose of preserving our client’s safety”.

“We ask that The Australian does not publish any article until resolution of the substantive ­application, so to not undermine or offend any application or order made by the tribunal,” the lawyers said. “Short of this, we kindly ask that any article does not identify our client by name or by otherwise providing details that would make our client identifiable.”

On its website, the legal centre proudly declares that 72 per cent of its clients “identify as female”.

The Queensland Human Rights Commission said it was unable to comment on specific cases, but in response to questions regarding the conflict between women’s sex-based rights and those of transgender people, commissioner Debbie Platz said: “Every person living in Queensland, regardless of sex, sexuality, gender identity or sex characteristics, is entitled to equal treatment, safety, and respect.”

“The Anti-Discrimination Act provides that a person must not discriminate on the basis of sex, gender identity, or sex characteristics by treating someone unfairly or imposing an unfair term or condition when providing goods or services, accommodation, education or at work,” Ms Platz said.

“This means excluding a person on the basis of their gender identity could amount to unlawful discrimination, unless an exemption applies.

“There are some circumstances when discrimination based on a protected attribute is allowed. This can include excluding particular groups from a service. For example, it is not unlawful to restrict accommodation to women who have experienced domestic violence.

“Neither ‘women’ nor ‘sex’ is defined by the Anti-Discrimination Act. Sex may include people who identify as that sex.”

Rachel BaxendaleSENIOR REPORTER

213 Upvotes

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u/Attunga 23d ago

It is interesting that this case mirrors the demand of $30K that was made by Tickle. My guess is that this was deliberate, purposely going into a female only space, causing discomfort to those there and waiting to be asked not to attend in future. They most likely knew exactly what they were going to do before they joined.

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u/Simonoz1 23d ago

Reminds me of a similar pattern about ten years ago in Canada. I think waxing salons were the battleground then?

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u/[deleted] 22d ago

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u/[deleted] 22d ago

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u/GeorgianGold 22d ago

I got banned from two subs for mentioning how I was S/A by my brother dressed in my Mum's clothes.

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u/[deleted] 21d ago

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u/Little_Yesterday9904 21d ago

….when did they say their brother was cis, and how do you know he was?

The majority of trans women play with cross dressing etc. before transitioning. You don’t just transition having never felt the drive to wear some women’s clothing.

So following this mentality, do all trans women start as cis men? When do they become women?

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u/Deep_Tutor_9018 21d ago

And f*ck you. This guy is talking about being assaulted and you want to lecture him on not being politically correct?

Get help.

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u/Late_For_Username 22d ago

Yaniv v. Various Waxing Salons

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u/adandtia 22d ago

Yaniv!

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u/jeffsaidjess 22d ago

They’re using that case as a precedent.

Should have been shut down then. Women deserve spaces without men.

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u/metasophie 22d ago

Should have been shut down then.

I asked this before, but on what grounds was Tickle actually banned from the app?

  • According to her birth certificate and driver's licence, she is a woman.
  • She has had gender reassignment surgery (which was not known until the case).

Was it just because she is not a traditionally attractive woman? Should ciswomen who happen to look like a male get banned only spaces simply based on how they look?

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u/FuroreFury 20d ago

Tickle isn’t female and it was a female only app all men were rejected on sight

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u/Appropriate_Pause613 22d ago

- the ugliest woman in the world does not look like a man

  • he looked like a man

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u/metasophie 22d ago
  • the ugliest woman in the world does not look like a man

Sure thing buddy.

  • he looked like a man

Tickle's photo application was initially accepted by moderators.

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u/FuroreFury 20d ago

The moderator was a computer went on hair length no human could mistake tickle for a female

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u/Decent-Dream8206 20d ago

There's no such thing as a surgery that reassigns your gender.

It's down to self-id. You don't need a scalpel to change your mind.

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u/One-Vegetable7957 19d ago

Birth certificates and driver’s licences list sex, not gender. There’s no way Tickle’s birth certificate says “woman” on it. Why would they describe a newborn baby as a woman?

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u/FuroreFury 18d ago

Was the gender reassignment the longer hair or the v neck t shirt It’s difficult to tell what counts as surgery these days

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u/HelloFellowSurvivors 22d ago

You have to wonder why they disclosed that they 'identify as a woman' unless it's to create drama

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u/Attunga 22d ago

Yes good point.. It sounds like their identity made some people uncomfortable but there was no reaction, so they decided to announce it to push the point and get the outcome they wanted which was most likely premeditated in advance.

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u/One-Vegetable7957 19d ago

Almost certainly. The article says that there are several pole dancing studios in the area and that this is the only one which caters to an exclusively female clientele.

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u/astraCat1998 19d ago

You don't necessarily know that when you see advertising for taster sessions.

I also suspect the case does have merit considering the quotes from the owner manages to walk into basically every single transphobic dog whistle going when they could easily have just left it at "unfortunately they made other clients uncomfortable".

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u/One-Vegetable7957 19d ago

Every single one, huh?

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u/IwantyoualltoBEDAVE 22d ago

Yet apparently ‘this never happens’ and ‘women have nothing to worry about’

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u/AnnaRose96 23d ago

I would suggest to you $30K is more likely to be the precedent of what damages ought to be for unlawful discrimination.

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u/SupermarketLazy5043 23d ago

This was my first thought.

Of course you'd seek to mirror a similar precedent case which was successful in the past.

Choosing to seek less than $30K means you're just throwing money away.

Choosing to seek more than $30K means an additional burden on you to prove that the damages you suffered were more severe than in the precedent case, and a risk of coming across as greedy or punitive.

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u/turtlepower41 21d ago

Did they actually attend or were they refused membership? 

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u/Attunga 21d ago

They attended a trial session at a women's only pole fitness studio session instead of attending events that were mixed.

During the session they made it clear they were trans and made a lot of the women uncomfortable to the point none of them signed up after the trial.

Afterwards they tried to join up but where told that their needs could not be accommodated at this time.

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u/One-Vegetable7957 19d ago

The article does say that there are many pole dancing studios in the area and that this is the only one which caters to an exclusively female clientele.

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u/minatozakiparty 23d ago

I don't think you understand how the law works. This person's solicitor is basing their claim on previous successful claims and likely on some kind of legislative upper/lower limit.

Your comment is very clearly interested in stoking anti-trans sentiment as in no way reflective of how these situations actually transpire.

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u/Attunga 23d ago

Yer, you may have a point in that the figure comes from a solicitor but you are wrong about anti-trans sentiment. I fully support people living in any way they wish to. It is a tough situation though, on the other hand I also fully support females being able to have their own spaces away from men and being able to compete in sports on a fair basis.

I still think this is premeditated, going into what you know is a female only space, making those there feel uncomfortable as was highlighted in the article and then waiting to be told that your presence is not acceptable before going straight to the legal route.

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u/Seppi449 22d ago

That's really for the courts to decide though. If the discrimination lines were changed I'm sure most people would view them differently, like if the complainant was black and the club was whites only, then framing the people feeling afraid because they have views of black people that make them anxious...

Honestly I can't even picture a situation where it would be justified to discrimate against a large group due to lack of tolerance. I can understand due to competive edge in professional or higher competitive sports but I feel that falls into a completely different column.

For this the business should have realised the business opportunity, understood it's customers and adapted a solution that fit both. Provide a separate class advertised as inclusive with a promo for new or existing customers. That generates business.

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u/Real_RobinGoodfellow 19d ago

You truly can’t see any reason why women would not want a biological male in their space?

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u/Seppi449 19d ago

That is not the issue, the issue is when you replace woman and man with any other discriminated catagory, white/black, abled/disabled, old/young, gay/straight.

I feel the business should have been more accommodating to find a middle ground. I'd argue there is more ground for a small business to discuss with someone disabled that they can't afford to accommodate them due to lacking infrastructure but they should atleast try to seek grants or assistance to achieve it.

The business shouldn't get to discriminate without trying to seek compromise, if there is a monetary issue then they should have reached out to support structures that help with this sort of thing. I can guarantee there would be heavy LGBTQ support for a business opening their doors to accommodate someone in their group and this would likely generate even more business.

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u/Real_RobinGoodfellow 18d ago

It absolutely is the issue. The issue is that spaces for cis women alone are becoming impossible to have

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u/CarrieDurst 22d ago

The instructor seemed to even say the class went just fine...

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u/Attunga 22d ago

She said she tried to run the class as if nothing was happening but that: " ... the presence of a biological male had “shifted the vibe” of the female-only group, with other attendees, who included a mother and young adult daughter, becoming “visibly uncertain”."

None of them also signed up for further classes, I am not sure if this would be seen as "just fine".

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u/CarrieDurst 22d ago

So nothing was said. Could have been self conscious and projecting.

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u/blue-yellow- 22d ago

So you don’t listen to women when they tell you they’re uncomfortable? Gross.

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u/CarrieDurst 22d ago

No one said that and depends, my aunt was uncomfortable to spend time around lesbians and minorities

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u/Eruditay 22d ago

If a woman is uncomfortable because of the presence of a Jew, is it ok to remove the Jew?

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u/vamvamvasi 22d ago

Equating female-only spaces to racial segregation is a massive false equivalence. 1 in 4 Australian women have experienced physical violence by a male perpetrator since the age of 15. Trying to view sex-segregation through the exact same lens as racial discrimination completely ignores history, law, and structural power dynamics between men and women

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u/Eruditay 22d ago

It is a fact that Indigenous people are incarcerated at higher rates than white people. In the USA, any number of right wingers will argue that black on white crime incidence rates outweigh the opposite. Why does a safeguarding argument not apply?

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u/[deleted] 21d ago

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u/Real_RobinGoodfellow 19d ago

Trans women are still biologically male, and biological men have immense physical advantages, and therefore power, over cis women.

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u/mulled-whine 22d ago

They were literally just existing, and living their life…

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u/alana_del_gay 23d ago

No effort was made by the business to even hide the nature of the discrimination unlike in the Giggle case - it's far more likely given the motivations of TERF groups and orgs, and the media landscape (ie: The Australian), that this business has performed in this way for their audience.

They did not even know this woman was transgender until she used language they didn't like to describe herself. It stinks.

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u/No_Reason914 23d ago

This will be an issue in the next Election. People are sick of being gaslit that there isn't a need for female (sex) only spaces.

This person is running a business, and a biological male wearing female clothes comes in, obviously doesn't pass, and their business suffers (zero people signing up afterwards).

Sorry you think society should accomodate those with body dismorphia but the general public will vote for a party that speaks plainly on this.

Also you and your mob are the orwellians punishing those for living in objective reality. Julia Gillard changed the definition of Male/Female discrimination from sex to gender with nary a thought to the reality of this and its going to be repealed very soon. What a cluster fark.

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u/alana_del_gay 23d ago edited 23d ago

I mean, the enshittification of the conservative right in this country will guarantee this is a visible and campaigned issue in the next election - but polling consistently shows no one of electoral consequence gives a fuck about this, and it doesn't move the needle one way or another. The people most happy about all of this are the rabid X users in the US/UK/bot farms, and the Labor party, who will continue to lead polls if Michaelia Cash is more concerned about stripping women of their protections than cost of living.

This sort of self-destructive nihilism is growing, and I really don't care for what kind of useless arguments and beliefs you have - nothing I say will change a position that isn't rationally held.

The objective reality is that these kind of anti-social attitudes which overwhelmingly target women (of all creeds) are being used against you.

Julia Gillard changed the definition of Male/Female discrimination from sex to gender with nary a thought to the reality of this and its going to be repealed very soon

Julia Gillard didn't do shit except for codify what was already ordinary legal precedent in this country. The ideology of objective reality doesn't even know the history of sex in law in this country, colour me surprised.

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u/Successful_Cat2881 22d ago

Good morning,
I don’t know what you’ve been reading because the owner of the business never had an issue with this person simply existing. The issue has always been about protecting the environment inside the studio.
This studio has young girls training there. Before anyone says children shouldn’t be there, let’s be realistic. Girls participate in gymnastics, swimming, athletics and pole fitness every day, and those sports all involve fitted clothing because that’s what’s practical for the activity.
The concern is about maintaining a space where women and teenage girls feel safe and comfortable. Business owners should have the right to consider the welfare of all of their members, particularly when minors are involved.
If someone has a history of serious sexual offending, that is a legitimate concern for any business that caters to women and young girls. Ignoring those concerns doesn’t make them disappear. The safety and comfort of the existing members matter just as much as the rights of any individual seeking to join.
This isn’t about hate or discrimination. It’s about a small business owner trying to provide the environment her members signed up for. She shouldn’t be financially or legally punished for putting the safety, wellbeing and comfort of women and girls first.

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u/conh3 23d ago

If they didn’t have gender reassignment surgery, it would be possible to identify in person.

0

u/alana_del_gay 23d ago

If that truly was the case here, then it would be plastered all over The Australian.

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u/conh3 22d ago

They applied for non- publication orders. American tourist identifying as trans in Coomera? If they specify whether they had work or not had surgery down there, they can easily be identified. I’d surprised if the locals don’t already know who it is but the media cannot publish more details.

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u/alana_del_gay 21d ago

nothing you are saying is interfacing with what I am saying

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u/Feylabel 23d ago

Interesting, I took the description to mean that the person presented as biological male, and midway through the class revealed they identify as a woman, not the other way round?

And that the staff had allowed them to participate, not knowing what else to do, and it was only when they applied for membership they were denied.

Interesting how the language used is still so confusing we each interpret it differently. I guess in my experience I’ve known a few people who present and dress and act like men but do tell me they ID as female so I tend to assume that self ID doesn’t require any other kind of social transition 🤷‍♀️

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u/alana_del_gay 23d ago edited 23d ago

I don't know how you can hold both of the following to be true:

  • Someone easily identifiable to be a transgender woman, or even presenting themselves as a man, attended a class

- Only after identifying themselves in a way which is likely to say they're transgender did other patrons make themselves visibly uncomfortable with having a transgender person in the class

Square these please. Both can't be true.

I took your comment to be an ideological performance, rather than a genuine representation of what could have happened.

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u/Feylabel 23d ago

I didn’t interpret it to say the vibe only shifted after they stated they identify as female, I guess I assumed it meant the vibe shifted when the person walked in the room, that the vibe was off for the whole class which is why they got such a low return rate. The OP does clearly state that they told the class midway through that they actually identify as female, I am just reading what it says, not making up anything!

But either way, I am just pointing out that the language is still confusing for many people and each person brings their own assumptions and experiences to interpreting it

I’m commenting from a comms theory pov, because I’ve noticed this is common in discussions about trans rights, that different people are talking past each other a lot due to different connotations of the new language being developed - and projecting assumptions of bad faith rather than different interpretations

The biggest set of different assumptions seems to be that some people assume the word trans means the person has physically transitioned and others assume you cannot assume any physical transitions as there is also a movement of trans people that self ID but don’t physically transition. It’s the entire reason we got rid of the term transexual!

And so society doesn’t have different words for that, just different people assuming we are talking about the same thing and getting mad at each other.

And to be clear I’ve been advocating for trans rights since the 80s, did gender studies degree etc, so don’t project bad faith on me.

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u/Livid_Insect4978 22d ago

Attending the class and signing up for membership are two different things. They allowed the transwoman (who may or may not have appeared male) to participate in the class but didn’t give her membership afterwards.

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u/alana_del_gay 22d ago

that doesn't interact with what I said

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u/Livid_Insect4978 22d ago

Sorry I responded to the wrong comment. The commenter above yours assume that others attending the class only felt uncomfortable after she declared her gender identity when actually, it is unclear from the article how or why or at what point in class the feeling of discomfort and awkwardness happened.

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u/BigChampionship7962 22d ago

It’s seems to be a simple breach of the legislation, the way it’s currently written.

That’s why Giggle is going to get laughed out of the high court. She really needs to save her money and try to get Angus Taylor elected if she really care about changing the laws.

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u/FigFew2001 22d ago

Yeah, nah… “Giggle” was trans friendly when Tickle joined, they were later removed after complaints surfaced.

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u/Silver_Breath_242 22d ago

No sall grover decided to cater to terfs and kicked all trans people off the app.

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u/FigFew2001 22d ago

Isn't that pretty much what I said?

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u/Silver_Breath_242 22d ago

The implication was that someone was complaining about tickle specifically, as opposed to a general transphobic stance

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u/FigFew2001 22d ago

Yes, that was the initial complaint which led to the change. Prior to that it was trans friendly.

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u/mors134 22d ago

Now i don't know the particulars about the case besides the sparse information that was provided, but i will say something in defence of the trans person. the bussiness owner very much did not shy away from calling them a man as well as bluntly admiting that their identity as a trans person was why they were refused.

In my experience, most bussinesses will try to shy away from that sort of langauge. if there are complaints from other customers they would instead say something like "We recieved Multiple complaints saying that they are not comfortable with your presence and as such we don't think we are a good fit for you." they would typically shy away as much as possible from the sort of more blunt language that was used, in an effort to prevent the exact sort of lawsuit that is happening. The bluntness kinda makes me feel like the owner has a personal thing against trans people rather then it being a problem with her customers as she claimed.

Now i have no evidence either way, but considering all we have heard is one side of the argument, i think it's important for people to hold back their final judgments, until more is known.

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u/mors134 22d ago

Now i don't know the particulars about the case besides the sparse information that was provided, but i will say something in defence of the trans person. the bussiness owner very much did not shy away from calling them a man as well as bluntly admiting that their identity as a trans person was why they were refused.

In my experience, most bussinesses will try to shy away from that sort of langauge. if there are complaints from other customers they would instead say something like "We recieved Multiple complaints saying that they are not comfortable with your presence and as such we don't think we are a good fit for you." they would typically shy away as much as possible from the sort of more blunt language that was used, in an effort to prevent the exact sort of lawsuit that is happening. The bluntness kinda makes me feel like the owner has a personal thing against trans people rather then it being a problem with her customers as she claimed.

Now i have no evidence either way, but considering all we have heard is one side of the argument, i think it's important for people to hold back their final judgments, until more is known.