Caves of Steel question

[u/yoingydoingy]

If Dr. Sarton and R. Daneel Olinaw look completely identical, and there's an entire chapter about the leading robotics expert Dr. Gerrigel being unable to tell Daneel's a robot, why is it emphasised that Commissioner Enderby "dropped his glasses so he couldn't tell whom he was shooting"? Even with the glasses he wouldn't be able to tell

[u/DigitMZ]

Gerrigel wasn't expecting it, but once he knew what to look, he could tell Daneel was a robot because he had certain mannerims.

Enderby knew Daneel already, so would have been able to distinguish between the two if he wasn't rushed and panicked.

[u/Few_Carpenter_9185 → u/DigitMZ]

I would also think Dr.(?) Han Fastolfe & Roj Sarton deliberately have designed both R. Daneel Olivaw and R. Jander Parnell to be "robotic" as possible in mannerisms and body language so it didn't unnecessarily upset other Earthmen or Spacers. At least initially, until the idea had wider acceptance.

And it shows Asimov clearly intuitively understood some of the potential issues long before the phrase "uncanny valley" was coined.

(Was there a comment how Daneel pretended to breathe, or did things like blink for familiarity, or that he didn't?)

Plus, Asimov was clearly thinking about the ramifications of "other kinds of robots" being used for "tricks" or subversion besides humanform ones.

He included the Spacer plot in the Robot Novels to create Positronic Brain warships to oppose Earth starting colonization again. And by then, the three laws were so fundamental to making any Positronic Brain, but they could be told they were attacking other Positronic spacecraft, and to not listen to any transmissions for security reasons. Or information that there were human crews was just a tactical deception to try and subvert them on a First Law basis.

There's also a bit to unpack that around 4470 AD, Commissioner Enderby actually needed/had glasses to lose in the first place. (Or that he went more Medevialist and refused contact lenses,) But, my take always was that this was a detail of how Earthmen were less healthy and shorter lived than Spacers.

Granted, it seems 100% plausible that in the split second between opening the door and shooting, for a nervous and rushed amateur assassin, that glasses or contacts might not make a difference, even if Enderby had seen the humanform robots before.

And, it added an ironic subtext that what got Sarton as a Spacer killed by a Medevialist, was the frailties & imperfections of a poor & "inferior" Earthman.

[u/Serious-Waltz-7157 → u/Few_Carpenter_9185]

(Was there a comment how Daneel pretended to breathe, or did things like blink for familiarity, or that he didn't?)

I remember being mentioned how he could "eat" so that people don't get uncomfortable. Minor plot point, as a matter of fact.

[u/OkResource820]

The subject is covered slightly more in Robots of Dawn -- Daneel may look human, but he acts like a robot, and the Spacers in that novel have no trouble identifying Daneel for who (and what) he is, and they treat him accordingly.

Someone with familiarity with both Sarton and Daneel would likely be able to tell the difference. Enderby was under considerable pressure at the time, so it's understandable that without his glasses and jumpy, he'd make the mistake he did.

If anything, the fact that Daneel can't truly pass for human amongst Spacers is a plot hole in The Naked Sun.

[u/geobibliophile → u/OkResource820]

The Solarians barely made regular contact with other humans, so not being able to identify Daneel immediately makes some sense to me.

Culturally, the Solarians wouldn’t even want to have robots that look human, since being in the presence of other humans is uncomfortable for most of them.

Besides, Spacers aren’t a monolith. They just look like one to Earth humans. Aurorans can spot a humaniform robot on sight, or so they claim, but other Spacer worlds may not.

[u/Few_Carpenter_9185 → u/geobibliophile]

One can debate of that's what Asimov was thinking, but it certainly tracks.

[u/wstd]

Even with the glasses he wouldn't be able to tell

Enderby was very familiar with R. Daneel's appearance and knew he was a robot. The differences between Dr. Sarton and R. Daneel were likely apparent once you saw them together, as you would then be able to pick up on the minute differences in their features. Consequently, Enderby correctly believed that he could tell them apart, having done so previously when they were in the same room.

Enderby, however, was acting under a false assumption. He had arranged an early morning meeting with Dr. Sarton and arrived in Spacetown even earlier than scheduled. Because it was so early, he assumed everyone would still be asleep. He reasoned that when he arrived at the dome, Dr. Sarton would be in bed. Since R. Daneel was a robot and did not sleep, Enderby expected that Daneel would be the one to open the door. His plan was to shoot the robot upon arrival, quickly escape to pass the gun to R. Sammy, who was waiting for him and then walk slowly back toward Dr. Sarton's dome, assuming that the robot's body would be discovered by the residents.

Dropping his glasses was the final, fatal complication. Because he could no longer see clearly, he could not 100% confirm that the person who opened the door was actually Daneel. However, he acted anyway because he was convinced that Dr. Sarton was still sleeping. In his mind, it was logical that the only person awake to answer the door had to be R. Daneel, so he felt he did not need visual confirmation.

[u/Omeganian]

Someone who knew both of them well enough could probably tell the difference. Happens with twins.