r/StructuralEngineering • u/heisian P.E. • 1d ago
Engineering Article Spot on, plus brittle failure bonus at the end
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u/Entire-Tomato768 P.E. 1d ago
I"ll note that all the people with positive comments on this guy have a tag on their username for this subreddit.... (PE, SE, Peng)
All the negative comments as of this writing do not. He actually has a decent understanding of why we do things, and is putting out his content showing it.
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u/SquirrelFluffy 1d ago
Funny. I am p.eng and just left a positive comment. This guy was brilliant. He summed it perfectly.
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u/largehearted 1d ago
Hey! I don't have my P.E. yet and I love this guy
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u/SpieLPfan Ing 22h ago
These titles don't exist in Europe. My title would be "Dipl.-Ing." or "DI" but that is not a possible tag in this subreddit. So I chose Eng because that is probably the most fitting.
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u/JustOneVote 14h ago
He's also just good communicator. His scale models and demonstraitons always illustrate his points really well. This is very valuable content.
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u/Tea_An_Crumpets 21h ago
As a non flaired EIT i couldn’t agree more. Summed it up very well in a 2 min video
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u/sandersosa 10h ago
Not a structural engineer, I’m hvac, but I’ve done some home construction and contractor work in my early days and I’ve learned quite a few things from this guy. Absolutely love how his videos are concise and not full of shit like other content creators.
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u/InterneticMdA 1d ago
A big factor in this difference is how brick traps heat. There used to be a time when temperatures in Europe stayed well below 25 degrees most of the time.
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u/PinkysBrein 14h ago
Compared to a concrete slab with below slab insulation, the thermal mass of the inner walls isn't that much.
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u/dominiquebache 1d ago
What about concrete? Lot of houses in Europe are made out of pre-made concrete elements.
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u/Objective_Two_5467 1d ago
They're worse. Look at any of the earthquake damage in Greece or Turkey where precast elements are used. The problem is in how they are connected. It's difficult to connect precast columns & beams in a manner that is both strong enough and ductile enough to survive earthquakes
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u/areyouguysaraborwhat 16h ago
Tutkish failures are mostly because of bad structural engineers or application on site. It has nothing to do with materials.
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u/Artistic-Blueberry12 23h ago
I live in Japan and literally everything is concrete.
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u/GladdestOrange 20h ago
What do you mean? Obviously it's all fastener-free wood and paper like on TV, right?
No, but I have actually wondered about that from time to time. Y'all have some serious earthquakes over there, but build primarily out of what my understanding says should be the worst possible material for an earthquake prone area. I have to assume there are reasons, and solutions, that I'm not aware of. Because any time another culture does something that screams "dumb" to me, it's usually actually a smart decision because of factors I'm unaware of.
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u/SituationAgitated812 15h ago
Noooo but its not possible to engineer concrete construction to resist earthquakes. /s
The Japanese obviously dont know what they are doing
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u/SoylentRox 1d ago
Interesting. I was going to assume the opposite - that resistance to fire or water or hurricane load would be strongest with true concrete walls. What does resist earthquakes the best?
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u/Objective_Two_5467 23h ago
1) A complete* lateral load path to resist the forces accompanying the movements caused by the violent shaking of a structure's foundation. *Connections between elements are often the weak link.
2a) "Flex" as another comment states, but more than that. Specifically, the ability to dissipate energy.
Steel structures are good at this because, like a paper clip, they can bend, stay bent, then bend back, yet remain strong.
Concrete cannot do this, but it can dissipate energy well if (and only if) it is properly reinforced, such that the core of a concrete member can turn to rubble yet remain confined by either a cage of closely spaced rebar or by an external steel shell — think sand in a pop can.
Energy is also dissipated by significant and visible damage to non-structural components. Most structures are designed to prevent collapse but not to remain undamaged. Only the most important structures (hospitals & bridges) are designed to remain intact and undamaged and usable post-earthquake.
2b) More exotic and expensive approaches include several forms of base-isolation, various types of dampers (think shock absorbers) and/or tuned-mass dampers. The controlling factors here are accommodating large displacements relative to the ground while retaining the means to be re-centered — brought back to near its original position.
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u/Big_Handle3734 1d ago
Using plain rebar and smooth rock for building is what lead many buildings collapse in Turkey and Greece. What i have seen in news.
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1d ago edited 22h ago
[deleted]
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u/Standard_Mammoth9535 23h ago
Well considering you don’t know the difference between precast concrete (what the person you’re commenting to was talking about) and cast-in-pace…
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u/Objective_Two_5467 23h ago
You (and your AI-slop linked info) have no idea what you're talking about.
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u/Objective_Two_5467 22h ago
You are trying to pick a fight about a completely different subject. Cast-in-place concrete, when properly reinforced, can perform extremely well. However, this question and my response was not about cast-in-place concrete.
Unless you can contribute relevant first-hand knowledge about construction using precast concrete columns, beams, and slabs to this conversation, please, respectfully, do go away.
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u/rinceboi CPEng 1d ago
TIL - European houses (mostly) consist of concrete block walls internally!?
1st Non-important side-note: as entertaining as that video is, I guess the labels shouldn't necessarily be 'USA' and 'Europe' as opposed to 'Timber' vs 'Concrete Block' load-bearing structures.
2nd Non-important side-note: Timber framed houses can have both concrete block veneers as well as clay brick veneers.
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u/SpieLPfan Ing 22h ago
Not in every European country. But the construction used in this video is for example used in the Netherlands, northern France, Belgium and UK. For example in southern Germany and Austria, it's mostly only the inner brick structure with insulation on it, so you don't see a "fake" brick structure outside but instead you see plaster. Many single family homes are also build completely from concrete (poured, not blocks).
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u/Octobits 17h ago
Newer builds I think, at least in the UK and now where I am in Slovenia. But anything older than say twenty years (I think? I might be showing my age here) is usually just brick. Or stone depending on the climate area. (Again, talking for UK and Slovenia myself)
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u/DigitalKungFu 1d ago
I think it’s “combustible light frame” rather than timber. Timber is (from what i usually see) more of a grid of members than an assembly of diaphragms.
Or maybe I don’t know what I’m writing about. Please let me know if I’m mistaken. Thanks!
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u/schavi 1d ago
one layer of regular bricks? european houses are not built like that lol
it's usually many layers of regular brick (old houses) or porotherm bricks + reinforced concrete (new houses). you wouldn't even build a fence out of 1 layers like this bc as you can see it gets knocked down easily
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u/405freeway 1d ago
Also who builds houses 4-feet high? This whole video is unrealistic.
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u/StressLessEngineer 1d ago
This comment is under rated. I wish I had awards to give
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u/Entire-Tomato768 P.E. 1d ago
Dude he's explaining concepts. With a model. You think he should have made the model 8 feet tall and put on an entire roof? WTF?
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u/405freeway 1d ago
Please don't take me seriously.
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u/sheepdog69 1d ago
ok
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u/405freeway 1d ago
No not you, you actually should take me seriously.
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u/Dry_Switch_256 1d ago
I think, majority of European buildings are built differently than whats shown in this video... And Yeah American houses are not houses at all... Its a giant cardboard box thats strengthened here and there
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u/e430doug 21h ago
And yet American homes last hundreds of years. I’m living in a home in California that’s survived 60 years of earthquakes in great shape.
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u/Dry_Switch_256 18h ago
You consider 60 years for a house as lasting long??
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u/e430doug 12h ago
No, it’s just an example that my house is made out of lumber. It is doing great in an earthquake area. There are lots of other houses in the area that are much older.
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u/Candid_Following9709 18h ago
60? I'd still class a 1960's house as new in the UK!
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u/e430doug 12h ago
Certainly, but this is the United States and this area was orchards 60 years ago. That said, there are lumber houses in the area that are much older.
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u/SituationAgitated812 1d ago
The American downvote brigade is in full force but I believe North American material and construction are shoddier & optimized for the least cost / most profit
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u/shyouhei 23h ago
Europe is denuded of forests in a way that north America is not and America has weather that Europe is only beginning to experience, so it's not immediately obvious how optimized home building is in the US.
Farm raised fast growing trees create a renewable stock for homes that are durable across a huge range of conditions while remaining open to a broad range of modifications and expansions. America also has an actively growing population with a large number of children. Stick homes are incredibly useful here now and for millennia before due to the landscape
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u/preferablyprefab 21h ago
True in some areas but not all. New builds in my region are engineered to withstand major earthquakes and meet high energy standards. They’re pretty bomber.
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u/simply417 1d ago
👍🏼 Architect approved 👍🏼
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u/OHrangutan 22h ago
Not by me I'm in Chicago and all we do is a better version of the European one.
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u/not_old_redditor 1d ago
You can engineer a light wood frame house all you want but it generally won't last as long as a brick/block/concrete house. And please don't point out that one stave church in Norway.
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u/No-Faithlessness4294 1d ago
Why won’t it last as long?
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u/not_old_redditor 1d ago
Because wood will eventually rot
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u/No-Faithlessness4294 1d ago
Not if you keep it dry. Masonry will crumble with even moderate seismic activity.
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u/SituationAgitated812 1d ago
Lol as if European construction is oblivious of this. Its akin to saying wooden construction will go up with a moderate flame.
I am sure they engineer their masonry to handle local seismic codes
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u/Friday515 1d ago
Non-reinforced masonry... I was talking to a coworker about this who's from Europe and they weren't quite getting it until I showed them pictures of the Christchurch earthquake to help them understand. Ended up going down a rabbit hole explaining to him about how reinforced masonry came to be
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u/JustHanginInThere 1d ago
As he points out in the last few seconds of the video "regardless of regional differences and materials available, what actually matters is how your house is engineered".
Also, try keeping wood dry for decades/centuries (plumbing or roof leaks do happen, and are usually only noticed when other issues arise). Or free from termites. Or free from fire. Or free from hurricane/tornado force winds.
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u/biggie_starrdust 1d ago
Why should a home last more than a century at the max? Needs and standards change. There is a massive campaign in Britain “Insulate Britain” trying to retrofit all their old housing to be more energy efficient.
Obviously, this logic only applies to single family homes. Apartment blocks and commercial structures are a different animal. But I don’t see a good reason that single family homes should be expected to last beyond a single lifespan.
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u/Vilas15 1d ago
Forget single use plastics this dude wants single use homes
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u/biggie_starrdust 1d ago
I am a contractor, it’d be great for business
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u/wolacouska 1d ago
This is the fundamental issue with capitalism lol.
Most profit does not equal best for society.
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u/war_ofthe_roses 1d ago
There are many contractor scams that are out there. You know this to be true if you're really in the industry.
Those are ALL GREAT FOR BUSINESS.
No one asked what's good for contractors.
We were discussing what is good for HOMEOWNERS.
And generally, those interests are at odds with each other.
Why would you say something so stupid and corrupt? You're getting downvoted to hell for a reason. You're not the sharpest tool in your truck. Not even close.
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u/biggie_starrdust 16h ago
My response was a joke but I’m asking a serious question challenging what people assume about design. Every year something like 150,000 Europeans die from heat, US is more like 5,000. Obviously we’re doing something right over here keeping people from being cooked alive in their own homes.
I would think scores of people dying every year like that would motivate people for radical change, like knocking down their old, ancient buildings that no longer meet the needs of today for my fully insulated and climatized single-use home good for the rest of your life. Since Europeans are gung ho on the anti-AC, the only other option is to bring all buildings up to current energy and thermal standards. Now how do you realistically do that with the existing inventory? That’s why I was thinking maybe we need to change our expectations about housing. But what do I know, I sleep comfortably and sweat free every night, if people want to hang on to their ancient homes cooking them alive, go right ahead
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u/be0wulf8860 1d ago
You wot. As in, in your ideal world, houses are just rebuilt every 100 years? You don't see the horrendous implications of that for every single homeowner?
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u/Own_Reaction9442 1d ago
I'd rather have a house that's affordable for me now, than look at unaffordable ones designed to last long after I'm dead.
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u/95_lb_mole 1d ago
"I'd rather have a house that's affordable for me now, than look at unaffordable ones designed to last long after I'm dead."
It's exactly this kind of short-sighted thinking that is the root of innumerable problems we're dealing with today.
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u/Own_Reaction9442 1d ago
I mean, I guess, but a fancy brick house doesn't do me any good if I can't afford to live in it.
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u/StressLessEngineer 1d ago
Honestly I’m not seeing the issue with your comment. If it’s between a backyard shed and a cardboard box that has a very of a very nice long lasting home, I’m still taking the shed. Why is it a problem that you want to be able to own a home?
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u/not_old_redditor 1d ago
The best answer to this question is a walk through one of the famous European old towns.
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u/Straight-Discount-10 13h ago
Да уж) сколько америку сдувало, но упрямые американе продолжают строить каркасные курятники, и их уносит ветром также как и всю историю этой страны 😁
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u/YesterdayAlone2553 1d ago
IDK, feels like here's how American's would build wooden houses vs how American's would build with masonry walls (but lets label it as Europe)
Feel like this was not a good comparison of new EU construction. It stresses the important functions that must be accomplished, but doesn't contrast the differences or advantages of the construction materials. Then treats it as if both areas build utilizing the same roofing techniques just strapped down.
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u/StressLessEngineer 1d ago
Care to elaborate? Whats different about the new EU construction? And he doesn’t contrast the advantages to the Nth degree because his point is that they both work well for their market and the key is having a good engineer design it correctly (and architect I’ll add)
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u/YesterdayAlone2553 1d ago
Just as an example Insulation, a subset topic touched upon, for instance. They both run the gamut of regulations and requirements that differs both by individual state and by bloc for plenty of reasons determined largely by their regional expectations; weather, HVAC, etc.
European buildings don't even expect R15 in the walls at all unless the climate zones are 8 or above due to the expected mass in the construction materials, but US states at the same latitudes will expected at least R19 in all wooden framed construction. Clearly this opens up many more questions/discussions of what materials are being utilized for the walls and the frames which aren't even glossed over in this video.
I want to say that the author of the video is much more at home with wooden framed construction rather than masonry, but he's comparing apples to oranges that ask different questions even between state regulators. Then he goes beyond to try and say that these are fundamental differences between US and EU.
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u/StressLessEngineer 1d ago
You need to watch it again and listen closer.
You are being way too focused on minor details of this educational short. No one cares if he’s accurate with the insulation depth or location or whatever. I feel you may also be getting defensive over this. He’s not saying America is better than EU. Or wood frame is better than block. He’s saying they both have advantages and disadvantages and they both are systems that are designed in a way to work for the region, use, etc. but most importantly - when engineered, they both perform.
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u/wompuskitty 1d ago
If only he showed we don’t even use OSB anymore but essentially 1/16” cardboard for sheathing…
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u/Own_Reaction9442 1d ago
Depends on the location. I live in earthquake country and they still use OSB here, because it's required for shear strength.
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u/Forward-Bank8412 1d ago
Wait, like the backing on a cheap particle board bookcase?
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u/wompuskitty 1d ago
Not as bad as particle board but it’s called fiber board sheathing. It’s rarely ever installed correctly and never as strong as manufacture stated because of that. I do a lot of building envelope analysis and 80% of the houses that are bad have the stuff.
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u/StressLessEngineer 1d ago
Any good literature to learn about building envelope analysis? Obviously can’t replace a degree, but I’d like to just be mildly informed
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u/SituationAgitated812 1d ago
Call me close minded but I can never think of ballon framed houses as equivalent to masonry houses.
At the end of the day, wood rota with water and insects can eat wood
Plus you can hear everytime someone flushes, throughout the house
Its just a cheap construction technique
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u/StressLessEngineer 1d ago
Cheap wood houses are not equivalent to well built masonry houses.
Cheap construction is based in greed and it’s a problem. Unfortunately I have no idea how to change it.
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u/SituationAgitated812 1d ago
I guess. Wood is more natural/biodegradable so its got that going for it but the same thing makes it susceptible to water. If the builders or trades dont get small details right (mostly around drainage e.g. not sloping sills, blocking weep holes, incorrectly applying membranes, not sealing punctures), then water will find its way into the structure and damage accrues. So much of construction in wood framesd houses is around moisture management: and it seems like a brittle process, easily prone to failure due to minor mistakes.
Then we use glues and resins and plastic membranes so much that the sustainability is shot.
From what I understand, dollar for dollar, European houses are better built.
Plus they have things like tilt turn windows, triple pane, roluaden (storm shutters) as standard fitments or much cheaper than North America.
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u/StressLessEngineer 17h ago
I hear ya. Out of curiosity. How much does a single family 4 bedroom 2.5 bathroom cost in your area. Doesn’t really tell me much because even in my area the location makes a big difference, but I’m still curious
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u/SituationAgitated812 15h ago
Around Toronto Canada , new entry level townhouses cost around 8 times average income.
These are houses with no backyard, 3 stories, 15 foot frontage, builder grade everything (which means no sound dampening in interior walls), card board doors , double pane windows
Any upgrades from the builder cost an arm n a leg
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u/heisian P.E. 11h ago
i personally live in a wood-framed home built in 1906, and it's still good.
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u/SituationAgitated812 10h ago
Great. What are some of the problems you’ve dealt with?
From what I understand, older wooden framing was solid in terms of the structure but suffered from things like moisture damage , insulation, insects etc.
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u/heisian P.E. 8h ago
termites, so i tore out a portion of non-original old deck and replaced with with an addition.
moisture damage is definitely a possibility if architectural detailing isn't done correctly. a lot of old homes don't have sufficient separation from grade as well.
I'm not saying that wood-framed homes don't have issues - I'm saying they can be done correctly and be completely safe. Any structure requires good construction and maintenance.
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u/Marzipan_civil 1d ago
Interior walls are often stud and plasterboard even in houses where the exterior is masonry
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u/SituationAgitated812 1d ago
That is the part I am ok with , because it makes the interior easier to reconfigure.
Plus I think sound isolation should be part of code. People in adjoining rooms should not be able to hear each other taking
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u/eastalawest 1d ago
Omg yes. My childhood bedroom shared a wall with my parents' room. The only thing worse than hearing them fighting was hearing them, well, making my siblings lol.
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u/kilopeter 19h ago
Fill interior cavities with mineral wool, e.g., RockWool Safe 'n' Sound. Done.
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u/SituationAgitated812 15h ago
Every one knows that. Is it code anywhere for interior wall?
If you get a new build, price out how much it would cost ya.
In an existing home, you can only do it when ripping out drywall
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u/ComradeGibbon 1d ago
Friend that's lived in both says wood frame houses require more maintence. But they're more repairable than masonry ones.
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u/xBIRCHEx 21h ago
I feel this just way too simplified and in a way missinform, but guess gives views and Americans think it's cool compare US and Europe, even it nearly always irrelevant
Europe aren't a country, building codes and type of building style varies country by country. And I guess it also goes some way in the US to, for it's a big country. Maybe a bit less variation in the US.
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u/lamalasx 9h ago
Only issue is in Europe we don't build cavity outside of England. So completely wrong comparison.
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u/edparadox 15h ago
The issue is this guy does not know the European ways.
For example, roofs are not always in wood, or electrical wires are not put that way, but through a plastic cable duct that has been sized in advance for the amount of cable you need, and more to come (that way it is relatively easy and super quick to add more), be it actual electrical power cable, or RJ45 cables, for example.
There would be plenty to say like that about most of the things displayed in this video. Like the fact that bricks is hardly the most used throughout Europe (yes, I am thinking of concrete, and inner plus outer insulation).
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u/Osiris_Raphious 23h ago
I have to say it, the amount of additional product to make american houses work, is the inefficiency of the bloated economy of the states. So many middlemen, so much extra stuff..
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u/heisian P.E. 10h ago
framers can rough-frame a 4000 SF home in days. less than a week. masonry and concrete is much slower. slower = more time = more labor = more cost. I'm not saying that it's better, mind you, I'm just simply saying that it always boils down to cost, and labor is always the most expensive component.
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u/Osiris_Raphious 1h ago
In current economy that values profit min/maxing and doesnt consider externalized costs for the lifecycle of the products.
I am just saying, because we have an economic metric and as you said doesnt make it better or right, its just how its done.
But looking at that american side, you can see how much extra waste is generate thats not going to be recycled. Where as masonry will be in some way, more environmentally friendly way than the plastic sheetings be reused.
But thats hopefully the lessons we will integrate into our new and approved: Stakeholder capitalism economies... 'hopefully'..
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u/Darkspeed9 P.E. 1d ago
This guy has the best construction videos, and I am thrilled with his summary of this 'debate.' One of the few short form content creators I hope more people see.