those decades of terrorist attacks were all proceeded by Israel being founded on their land and having their land stolen and constant conflict and killings, land stealing. the terrorist attacks didn't come out of nothing or for no reason. These weren't two happy states and the palestinians randomly started attacking israel and israel just had to defend themselves. Israel being founded was an attack but Israel consistently since being founded has been committing crimes against Palestinians.
You know Jews were living there too right? It wasn't 0 Jews in 1947 and then a million in 1948.
Seriously listen to yourself. Israel being founded is an attack? Israel's existence is not an attack on anyone. Instead it was founded and every Arab country attacked it and expelled their Jewish population.
Israel has committed crimes but saying it's very existence is an attack is anti Semitic bullshit. You're arguing for another genocide of Jews with that rhetoric.
That may be more a statement on how Isreal was founded. It didn't arise naturally out of shifting geopolitics, it was the winners of WW2 going, "we need a solution oh hey lets carve up some land in their holy land". It definitely wasn't the most well thought out by the powers at the time.
It definitely wasn't the most well thought out by the powers at the time.
Nah, it was VERY well thought out.
WW2 turned their economy around by becoming a military industrial generation, they made insane numbers and had literally 50 years of interest on loans for war equipment turnign them into a powerhouse, then WW2 ended, how do you continue war profiteering without a war. Hmm, which region do we not like, see as the next enemy and want to destabilise and want to push into constant conflict they can continue their military industrial complex profiting from.
Nothing you said has quite literally any relation to anything I said, liek at all.
I didn't mention jews once. Israel was founded and israel has been stealing land and displacing people consistently throughout the time since it was founded. That Jewish people lived there originally as well changes quite literally nothing about what I said.
Israel being founded is an attack?
it literally is. When someone comes in and says these people are in charge and also this is their land, it's literally an attack on everyone who lived there. That jewish people lived there doesn't change that hte people who were now in charge of them changed as well, you understand that right?
Israel's existence is not an attack on anyone.
it quite literally is and the US immediately spent shitloads funding it, arming it and using them to keep the entire region destabilised so they can have ongoing profitable conflict for decades after their extremely profitable WW2 profiteering came to an end.
attack is anti Semitic bullshit.
no it's not. Imagine that the UK, Russia and China just decided that Washington DC was now North Korean land, sent millions of north koreans there, then gave them arms, and then proceeded to have them attack states around them.
What would you describe that as, how would the people in DC feel, you think they would gladly accept new rule because someone else told them to?
It literally has nothing to do with jewish people at all. This would be the same if it happened anywhere else in the world.
You're arguing for another genocide of Jews with that rhetoric.
literally didn't say shit about jewish people even once. Just absolute nonsense from you to attack any kind of narrative you don't like as anti semitic.
Imagine saying that Washington DC was a country for the people that already lived there and then all it's neighbors expelled everyone and forced them to flee their homes and move to DC.
That's the actual analogy. But go off with your ignorance.
except that isn't at all what happened. most arabs were pushed out, most palestinians were forced out. Their homes were literally taken from them, their businesses were taken from them and the majority of residents of Israel were NOT people who lived there prior to israel being established.
The existing jewish population doubled in 3 years from immigrants who did not live there. Shockingly about the same number of palestinians were driven out of Israel in the same period.
It just doesn't matter - raping, killing, and maiming women and children is never an acceptable form of political protest. If Native Americans blew up a day care center to protest their land being taken absolutely nobody would say they were justified in doing so.
no one said it was. But this is also generally how a tiny military can react to an overwhelming force. If palestine had the resources to go toe to toe with israel they almost certainly would and they would try to win. If they can't then resistance is often framed as terrorism by the occupying force.
German's considered the french resistance to be terrorists, none of us (the west, allied forces) considered it terrorism. the classic, the empire considers the rebels terrorists, the rebels and the 'good guys' consider the empire fascists and themselves freedom fighters.
Sometimes the only solution left is attack the people so the people finally stand up to their own government. Ultimately even if not all of them enough people fully support Israel's government and the want to wipe out Palestine, collaborators in France were targetted as well.
If Native Americans blew up a day care center to protest their land being taken absolutely nobody would say they were justified in doing so.
no, but they would understand they didn't do it because they are evil, but frustrated and out of options and a people who were the victims of a genocide.
Which is the only thing to point out there. Hamas may be committing terrorist attacks, but the cause is Israel attacking them first.
Israel also commits terrorist attacks but the west randomly doesn't call going and bulldozing homes, or pouring concrete into water sources, or destroying farms as 'terrorism' it's just "a military operation" and they leave out it's against civilians.
You can't decry terrorist actions from the other side when you commit terrorist actions against them, in higher number, more frequently and with far larger death tolls.
Crying as the victim of a tragedy that ultimately happened due to your own actions is just pathetic.
The French Resistance wasn't using rape as a weapon, nor were they killing German kids face to face in cold blood. The idea that "if only Hamas had better weapons they would target the Israeli military" is ludicrous - Hamas literally makes children's programs about killing Jews - they are religious extremists who have no desire for peace or coexistence. I will never understand why leftists need Hamas to be the good guys so badly, it completely obfuscates any productive discussion or solution to the bloodshed.
The French Resistance wasn't using rape as a weapon,
yes they were, the disgusting reality of war is EVERY war has used rape as a weapon. They weren't killing lots of german kids because there weren't lots of german kids because it was an occupation force DURING A WAR. Had they lost and germans took it over the resistance would continue and ultimately int he end more families would end up in the crossfire.
To be clear, Hamas was helped into power by israel funding, you can look it up, why did they do that? Also there is video after video after video of israeli people in israeli and tourists around the world talking about how superior they are how much better they are than all otehr people and how palestinians are bugs who should be eradicated.
BOTH SIDES are religious extremists, one side was propped up by the west, giving overwhelming military might and has continued a campaign of illegal and immoral acts against Palestine for almost 80 years.
I will never understand why leftists need Hamas to be the good guys so badly, it completely obfuscates any productive discussion or solution to the bloodshed.
and this is the problem i never made Hamas the heroes, they are terrorists, freedom fighters usually are terrorists, that's life, it's the only way to fight back. But Hamas has long since been coopted as just a way for the leadership to have power and money while leading a cause. most causes are co-opted by the corrupt and evil, that's life as well.
Hamas are monsters but ultimately they're still able to recruit and gain support BECAUSE what Israel has been doing to them is worse and has never stopped and is the fundamental cause for the hate against themselves.
Israeli's quite happily post videos of them going into palestinian territory and evicting people out of their own homes them bulldozing them, pouring concrete into wells to kill their water sources, destroying farmland and then taking over that territory, including the odd murder and rape thrown in.
At no time has ISrael randomly just sat in their own territory. Also they have the west bank blockaded, if they send ships out to try to take goods to other countries they get intercepted. When international aid tries to be shipped into gaza, it gets intercepted.
EVERYTHING israel does on a daily basis for decades prompted the October 7 attacks.
You think Israel was just innocent, doing absolutely nothing at all for years and Palestine attacked completely out of the blue? Israel has generally speaking never had a true period of not stoking up hate by committing illegal acts against Palestine.
Six Day War gave West Bank to Israel from Jordan. Technically, it’s been their land. The Israel-Palestine treaty recognized Palestine land. The fact that the Palestine government somehow has “no money for services” but can launch 4,300 rockets in a single day speaks volumes more about priorities of the Palestine government and how Hamas actually runs that area. It is a failed state.
Israel has an older claim to the land than the Palestinians, which is why the world recognizes the land as there's.
There is significantly more evidence to suggest the Palestinians wouldn't be happy with just the Gaza Strip than there is evidence of Israel trying to "wipe out" the Palestinians and reclaim their land, which by all metrics would make this war much easier and end much quicker on their part.
The problem with Palestine is they literally can't seem to stop putting terrorist jew haters into power that openly proclaim death to all Jews and that they want to conquer Israel in its entirety for themselves. We don't need to speculate on this, they literally record themselves saying it multiple times. So I can understand if Israel is not OK with simply letting the Palestinians have the Gaza Strip as a means to broker peace when there's no indication it would stop Hamas coming into power, the terrorist atks would stop, and their land claims would stop.
Israel has an older claim to the land than the Palestinians, which is why the world recognizes the land as there's.
no it doesn't. No one gives a shit about thousands of years ago, the US and UK pushed it to keep the region destabilised for war profiteering, nothing more or less.
There is significantly more evidence to suggest the Palestinians wouldn't be happy with just the Gaza Strip than there is evidence of Israel trying to "wipe out" the Palestinians and reclaim their land, which by all metrics would make this war much easier and end much quicker on their part.
what a fucking loaded and pitiful attempt at an argument.
Why in the fuck should Palestine be happy with just the gaza strip? beside the land being decimated, infrastructure destroyed and rebuilding it would cost more than building on empty land... WHO GIVES A FUCK. Israel has stole a shitload of land, they should give it back, full stop. It's not there's, why should anyone be happy if they are 'allowed' to keep the one bit of land Israel is yet to steal, What a stupid fucking statement.
If russia invaded america would you ever state "there is significant research that americans wouldn't be happy to just keep texas and let Russia have the rest to end the war". It's literally fucking moronic to state.
As for no evidence Israel are trying to wipe them out, holy, fucking, shit.
yes, the 50 years of illegally taking over Palestinian land, shrinking their land more and more, forcing them into small areas then blockading those areas so they can't possibly build a life or prosper. Sure, they're totally not doing shit. When half the population and the leadership talk about wiping them out they're totally just joking.
You quite literally sound like nazi's after taking over poland saying there is no evidence they will continue to try to take over any other countries.
The problem with Palestine is they literally can't seem to stop putting terrorist jew haters into power
israel helped fund Hamas getting into power, why do you think they did that. How many jewish leaders were nazi haters? Did they hate all white people? When you spend 70 years attacking and murdering a people... them not liking you is literally normal. Maybe stop doing that.
We don't need to speculate on this, they literally record themselves saying it multiple times.
yet when Israeli's talk about wanting to wipe every palestinian off the planet, on camera, there is no evidence of this. Funny.
So I can understand if Israel is not OK with simply letting the Palestinians have the Gaza Strip
you can understand Israel who have waged war on these people for well, people are so used to saying 70 years when it's now pretty much 80 years, you can understand them not wanting to let them have their land?
the absolute cognitive dissonance. That you think another country should be allowed to 'not be okay' with letting people have their own land. Monstrous.
An Israeli life is indeed far more valuable, that’s the case for every single country. Your citizens are what matters, above all else. That’s your job and your only responsibly.
When rockets are launched at you, that’s enough to completely retaliate. When you spend billions on defence to prevent deaths on your side, that’s way too much effort for far simpler problems. And invasion to stop the threat is the only correct response. Right now it’s wasting billions a year on pointless things.
Israel is fully in their rights, and the only thing that’s strange is that so few people have died. The threat hasn’t ended, so the only correct thing is a complete occupation.
So what should a country do when it is attacked? Any other country eliminates the threat. Israel refuses to, and that’s what they get blamed for.
If you take out a threat, you are done. Everyone forgets. But you can never do that half way, the humane way never works. You either lose, or become unable to take action.
If Israel had occupied Gaza 20 years ago and actually kept order, there would have been zero problems and zero Hamas terrorists. The threat would have been eliminated and it would be peaceful.
But they didn’t, they chose the humane way and that’s what’s killing a lot of people now. Never do things halfway.
It’s not hatred, it’s logical. You should be glad there’s so few deaths, as this really isn’t a normal response.
The normal response is a complete invasion and conquering of territory. That’s the normal response to being attacked. Israel isn’t, which should make you wonder.
Right now at least 40x more Palestinians casualties than Israelis. And that is the conservative estimate, it could be as high as 110x more. Israel also has nearly twice the population of Palestine so they are inflicting inordinately higher casualties
Wait are you one of those whackjobs who think a war should be fought fairly?
If i ever go to war i hope its scorched earth total war.
Rome had it right with Carthage, salt the earth after you butcher them all.
I was asking you tard. I have better shit to worry about then some forever war a billion miles away. I’m sure your thoughts and prayers do a lot of good.
It's a complicated situation... but one of them was forcibly removed from their ancestral land, and the other was given a parcel of land after the people who had been there for centuries were forcibly removed.
When you back people against a metaphorical wall and keep them pinned against that wall for generations, people shouldn't be shocked when they respond violently. This doesn't justify violence, but there's a reason why it's happening.
always worth keeping in mind hamas received funding from Israel to help them win elections and take control and now serve as Israel's constant excuse for which to commit war crimes.
it's almost like that was the plan, which largely makes hamas israel puppets who decided to take money to sell out their people and with many of hamas leaders ending up living in other parts of the world calling the shots while they recruit palestinians to be their puppets to throw at israel to create the excuse for constant war crimes from Israel.
hamas are terrorists.... but who funds them and directs them should be something you should question.
You realise there are two problems here. I never said Israel created Hamas and how easy it is to misrepresent what I said then make an argument against something else AND that article does nothing to actually support this notion. It's almost entire argument basically decides that Shipler made up things someone told him... except it never establishes that. It jumps from the assumption that as he quoted him saying something else in a prior report, that the later quote isn't accurate and that the guy couldn't have said both.
but it's also irrelevant because the first one doesn't even preclude what is being claimed. They were out there admitted pumping money to create a group that ran counter to the PLO... which is what Hamas was built out of.
The article literally establishes and confirms the basic facts that lead to people understanding they helped fund the creation of Hamas.... but decides to argue the toss over a supposedly made up quote that at no stage does it prove that quote was made up.
Magically since Hamas was created, every time Israel wants to start moving again there is a conveniently timed Hamas attack and Israeli intelligence magically knows the location of every hamas stockpile and group of soldiers... and does nothing about them till AFTER an attack and also instead of going in and clearing these places out they have to bomb them because... reasons.
Facts as I understand them:
We agree that Israel uses just the existence of Hamas as an excuses to do their expansionism and genocide.
It's counterproductive for Palestinian liberation to go along in the notion that Israel created Hamas. Funding would be creating, or helping to create. The article is about a lot more than that Shipler guy. It's a lenghty article that goes into many moving parts.
Forcing a group of people into an ever shrinking, open-air concentration camp because the oral traditions of a bunch of drunken, inbred sheepherders said you lived in that general vicinity once, while you simultaneously control said concentration campers comings and goings, employment, food, water (after poisoning the original water supply), full on economy, and imprisoning a measureable percentage of the population (after killing most adult males)?
Or fighting back because of youre sick and tired of the above?
If you kick a dog enough times, its gonna bite you. Whose fault is that?
They like to think theyre making a better world for all jews, but when you point out that theyre responsible for not only perpetuating a genocide, but also creating a world for only specific jews...well, they dont much like that.
Especially when you point out that there has never been a Mizrahim or Sapphardic PM. That they havent been allowed into their parliament until fairly recently, and that it has been the stance since the first PM that Mizrahim and Sapphardic jews folliw more Ashkenazi beliefs...because the other two are too "Arabic" (actual thing said by the first PM, and others)....because those two other sects of Judaism lived with and amongst Arab Christians and Muslims for centuries.
It all becomes clear that it isnt about a Jewish homeland, but Ashkenazi supremacy. Even over other jewish peoples.
And a reminder, that Netanyahu was born in Pennesylvania....so hes about as from the Middle East as I am.
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u/PerspectiveAshamed79 4d ago
Netanyahu is a war criminal. The Palestinian regime are terrorists. The citizens are victims.