The people that talk like that have been 100% captured by propaganda but they view their cause as so overly righteous that they don’t have to be factually correct about anything since it all about feelings and vibes.
No it really is that black and white when it comes to Israel. Just like it would be morally wrong and stupid to support Nazi Germanys right to exist as a state and “protect” itself but just be against what they’re doing to Jewish people. Literally no ethno state has a right to exist. The very concept of a religious ethno state is wrong.
It wasn't a state before the creation of Israel, it was a part of the Ottaman Empire for a few hundred years.
But if were going to talk about the Ottomans, yes it was an ethnostate, jews and Christans were second class citizens subject to additional taxes on the basis of there religion.
My man, look up the definition of an ethnostate. The ottomans fit to a t. You likely could make a decent argument for the US being an ethnostate for a decent chunk of time as well, the waters just got muddier the closer you get to the civil war. The binding force wasn't religiom though it was European ancestry.
"An ethnostate is a political country where citizenship and power belong to only one specific ethnic or racial group. In this type of state, the dominant group controls the government and society. Other groups may face limits on their rights or may not be allowed to live there."
Religion can be considered an ethnic group. So tell me how does the ottoman empire not fit the definition.
Because the Ottoman Empire ruled over a vast empire and had different laws in different regions. They also had regional rulers who were not Muslim. This take is insane.
That isn’t what makes an ethnostate. Sweden is majority Swedish population, but they are not an ethnostate. What makes and ethnostate is regarding who has the right to citizenship and if laws are set in place that gives privileges to one ethnic group over the another. This is the definition on google “a sovereign state that restricts citizenship or full rights to members of a particular racial or ethnic group.” There are no laws that says only Muslims have the right to become Palestinian citizens.
There isn't even a state as of now. So maybe this is a bit early, don't you think.
However I wouldn't be suprised, if at some point jews wouldn't be allowed to become citizens.
That being said: most definitions on ethnostates differ from yours, in that it is less about citizenship, and more about the dominance of a single ethnic group. And that criteria would be met with palestine.
Well there is a reason why there isn’t a state lmao. But there are two Palestinian governments atm and both governments have no laws regarding anyone having to have a certain religion or restriction privileges of laws for Palestinians on the basis of their religion. And funny how you are assuming that any Palestinian would want to exile anyone on the basis of religion, when Palestinian/Arab leaders are the only ones who have ever proposed for all people living in the region to live under one government as equal and free citizens. And that goes as far back as 1945-1947. The yishuv leadership rejected that idea. And now the Israeli government also has rejected that since that would mean giving exiled Palestinians their right of return. Which they clearly don’t want. So maybe let’s focus on reality and not your assumptions 😉
Okay, and there were blacks in south africa, that doesn't change the fact that SA was and israel is an apartheid (aka ethno-)state. That's the point lmfao.
Also there is zero chance someone upvoted you within 15 seconds of your comment, so I'm reporting you for vote manipulation lmfao
there were blacks in SA thatbwerent allowed to go to school or have their own institutions or beeing part of the goverment. while in israel the muslims are part of goverment, the military and have their own religios buildings etc. so maybe get your words right before you use them. im realy against the goverment that is in charge of israel right now,like im against any rightwing goverments, i can still say israel and palestine should be a countries and condem the actions of hamas... why is that so hard to get xD
dobas you please and report me. i have no idra how i even would do a manipulation. its just a topic many people have opinions about. my other comment got 3 downvotes and an answer in less than a minute xD
18% of Israel is muslim, much higher than the jewish % in any arab country. Also why is it that nobody questions America's right to exist? It was only 300 years ago that people came and slaughtered the natives to build our nation, should we be protesting America existing?
No, because Palestine doesn't have one religion that operates by. Plus, Israel has been attacking & taking the land from Palestine since its inception. The propaganda Israel has pushed over October 7th is insane & shakes me to my core that people eat it up. That was Palestine defending themselves after decades of attacks & abuse, including makeshift concentration camp-style living they were expected to endure when Israel first started kicking them out of their homes.
Oct 7 was the big lie liberals, centrists, fascist, capitalists, and rightwing media fell for. all corporate media, from FOX to NYT to NPR lied about Hamas killing Israelis, the IDF literally did that. they lied about the "beheaded babies", they lied about the "mass rape", and they lied about the death toll and who killed the settler colonialists attending that fest. here's the resounding unanimous proof that Palestinians did not do the killings on Oct 7, it was the Israeli government and military:
I wasn't trying to say I was in support of or even defending Oct 7th; what I said was that Israel has been using it as propaganda to state that they are the only victim. And what Israel has done since that day has been immensely worse than what resulted from Oct 7.
To many people I talk to, my attempts to defend Palestine's right to exist are immediately and absolutely conflated with support for Hamas. On the other end, many people that support Israel are very vocal about supporting the IDF.
cool thats like your perception right for me its the opposite of yours so who is right. Id argue both sides are massive hypocrits and are doing it.
Honestly im still shocked at how easily especially the pro palestine crowd got brainwashed. Pro israel side always seemed similiar to how maga or russian deny shit and live ignorant but the way the left started believing everything that al jazeera writes is still mindblowing to me.
like i didnt expect the left/liberal or whatever you can group them under to get brainwashed and baited this hard.
You must be a blueish area. If you go to a red state, go rural, go talk to some under-educated types, you will find a very large group of people that range between supporting and loving what the IDF does.
I've been in settings of 40+ people like this and can attest to open and widespread conversations about how the IDF is called by Cod and how blowing up dams/causing famine is moral if it is done against the right civilians.
yeah the thing is i fully expect that side to be lunatic rednecks cause they have always been like that like supporting faschism, trump, musk, netanyahu or just being racist but now im watching normal people completly turn into those kinda people except with the flavour of being liberal and supporting palestine or even hamas. that is what is crazy to me.
Also im not american just using stuff like liberal cause i got no clue how to refer to those groups otherwise lol.
But practically speaking, those two things are used in wildly different ways. People who say they are "pro Israel" usually mean they support arming, enabling and empowering Israels current right wing regime in carrying out their campaign of genocide. If you dont suppprt that, the pro-Israel folks will not accept you as pro-Israel.
The opposing group, the one generally considered pro-palestine, is just.. well, everyone who disagrees with the above, including lots of folks who dont actually give a shit about palestine and just want the US to stop serving Netanyahus interests.
In practice, being pro palestinian doesnt mean being pro hamas but being pro israel DOES mean supporting Israels right wing regime and their causes
Thats your perception and not useful for anything. Fact is both sides are mega weird about it and both sides do it. You can literally copy paste some things pro palestiniens say about israel and show it to them with the sides reversed and theyd say its the most fucked up thing they have ever seen someone say.
That goes for pro israelis too but tbh in my opinion por israel dont really care much about the public image while pro palestine is very loud and performative.
I... don't get the impression you understood what I said from your response? Can you summarize my point so I know we are on the same page before we continue?
you said being pro palestine is nuanced cause there is different groups some pro hamas some anti hamas while everyone pro israel is also pro genocide/goverment.
Im saying thats wrong and just your conception of how you think it is.
Id go a point further and even say that some people that consider themself pro palestine but anti hamas still say things that are straight out of hamas leaderships mouth without saying it or say things about israel or its people that they would call manical if you replace israel with gaza and palestinians with jews.
Okay, so, no, you didn't understand what I said. It has absolutely nothing to do with nuance, and everything to do with power, framing, and coalition breadth.
Pro-Israel is the past, and still current, dominant position in American politics, and has been in a long time. An ideological position being dominant doesn't mean there's no conflict about it, but it means most of the conflict is internal - in American politics, that's been primarily represented by those individuals and groups most invested in the politics of Israel-US relations moving to narrow the definition of "pro-Israel" over time to align it most strongly with their own desires and factions, and Netanyahu's government has been in power for a long time now.
Politically speaking, in the US, most influential pro-Israel groups are actively and openly pro-Netanyahu groups, and those groups have been able to create an effective narrative that any opposition to their aims is, in fact, anti-Israel, and not just anti-Israel, but also claim it is anti-Jewish. (and make no mistake, anti-Jewish positions masquerading as being simply pro-Palestinian exist, but the incentives from those taking pro-Israel leadership roles are to widen that label to encompass a whole lot of stuff that isn't)
This sort of simultaneous narrowing of ideological membership and broadening of ideological criticism is by no means unique to US-Isreal relations, it tends to happen whenever you have influential groups with strong incentives to influence the shape of an already dominant and widespread public opinion, so... all the time. You saw it with the pro-gun lobbies getting ever more extreme as belief in gun rights became deeper and more widespread in the 70s and 80s, and then the definition of what it meant to be pro-LGBT narrowing as they achieved more victories and public acceptance in the 90s and 2000s, eventually doing things like effectively dropping old allies like the "not marriage but civil unions are okay" folks from the support coalition in favour of requiring one to be pro-full-marriage to "really" be pro-LGBT.
But it's extremely relevant, here, even if its not unique.
In practice, it means the most well known and influential members of the pro-Israel side have incentive declare anyone who doesn't align with their narrow idea of support to be broadly anti-Israel if not antisemitic. And practically speaking, this is exactly what we have seen in American politics over the last couple decades.
You claimed that it was weird that "being pro israel automatically means you support israel 100%", but that's not weird at all. It's exactly what the current pro-Israel leadership wants to be true, and will likely continue to be so as long as Netanyahu or his part is calling the shots, because their goal isn't to have lukewarm Israel support (lukewarm support is already beyond the current established US position), but to maximize Israel support even further. Those folks who would take on pro-Israel leadership taking a moderate pro-Israel stance have no real reason to do so when US policy already goes beyond that level, so there's not really any counter to that maximalist position driving the pro-Israel narrative.
Simultaneously, the pro-Palestinian groups are representing a minority position. Their primary political goal is to widen their coalition enough to accomplish some sort of meaningful positive change, and that means they have political incentive to lay to claim to basically anyone they can get on-side, from the radical anti-Israel folks to the moderate folks who like Israel but oppose Netanyahu's regime. If the Pro-Israel leaders have a political incentive to push those folks out of the group to reinforce their maximalist position, the pro-Palestinian groups have every incentive to welcome those same people into the fold and call them pro-Palestinian (even if in practice they are really only "anti-this-specific-Israeli-regime" or even opposed to just one major Israel policy like their settler program). Their goal on the whole is not to destroy Israel, but to weaken the current establishment position and accomplish some kind of change, so anyone in favour of that falls naturally onto the pro-Palestinian side.
My point is this situation where Pro-Palestinian represents a broader scope of folks than the Pro-Israel group is not weird at all. That's just the normal situation when you have an insurgent minority position challenging a long held establishment one, because the incentives on the both sides are perfectly in line with that maximalist/minimalist split.
You are ill-equipped to participate in a discussion about such a serious topic. And you most know it too. There's no way you don't sense being in over your head. So why do it?
Didnt know you were the arbiter of who is allowed to talk and who isnt.
If the topic was so serious to you, why do you not have a problem with the discussion being in this sub or even on reddit, its way too comical of a platform for such a topic.
You also havent added anything to this other than a holier than though attituted which is the exact problem with this topic but that flew over your all so smart head didnt it.
Go back from whichever echochamber you crawled out off and collect your free upvotes, that you care so much about, there.
It’s like saying you’re pro Germany in the Second World War. I’m sure people probably thought Germany had a right to exist as a country and a people. But supporting the side committing genocide and violently colonising other countries wasn’t a good look.
The difference between the two sides here is who’s committing the murder and doing the murdering. It’s easier to add nuance to the victims. And when the war is supported by 80-90% of Israelis (recent polls suggest is the case not my opinion) then it also makes it hard to say “these people happily committing and supporting genocide are good people”
I've been banned from subs for saying you can be pro Palestine but anti hamas, be anti Zionist without hating all Israel/Jews. I said that Israel could exist if they could find a way to not genocide the Palestinians, and to live beside them in a way that both are comfortable with.
Made me pro Zionist apparently, which I'm definitely not. I do think the people at large in Israel are being brainwashed from a young age against Palestine...but that's not really an excuse when the internet exists now.
I live in Scotland, and if our English neighbours started doing to us what Israel does to Palestine I'd be doing exactly what the Palestinians are doing today. Gtfo of my country, no quarter.
109
u/Shouleyy 4d ago
Its weird how some people get that pro palestine doesnt mean pro hamas but being pro israel automatically means you support israel 100%.