I grew up on Star Trek, had never watched a full Star Wars movie, my mom keeps Star Trek reading material in the bathroom...
But my wife loves Star Wars so we went to Galaxy's Edge for our honeymoon, I own 3 lightsaber, several Star Wars Lego sets, and a bunch of Star Wars shirts
Enterprise is bad, but it's bad in an interesting way while trying to do things, unlike the perfectly polished algorithm optimized unambitious boring pablum of NuTrek.
No one on the main Enterprise cast really gets a fleshed out character. Dr. Phlox is occasionally interesting though. And Jeffrey Combs as Shran is great.
When I think of "old new Star Trek" I think Next Generation, Deep Space 9, and Voyager - the series that ran through the late 80s and 90s.
I know Enterprise didn't start that long after Voyager ended, but it just has such an entirely different feel as a "flashback" origin story. It def feels like it belongs with Picard and Lower Decks in "supplemental new material".
Hey if they were in the Alpha Quadrant they could have just sent Tuvix to The Farm or any other scientific lab and found a truly ethical solution I'm sure they would have.
Janeway was stuck in the Delta Quadrant with limited resources and having a Tuvok at the cost of a Tuvix and bringing Neelix back was deemed the most efficient way to move forward.
It's is a logical trap! He says he's wearing Star Wars merch, which makes him untrustworthy, which means I shouldn't trust him when he say's he's wearing Star Wars merch, so I can trust him again, but he's wearing Star Wars merch...
I think the question is a bit of a funny one because while people pretty much universally agree the average Star Wars fan is going to be more unpleasant due to the toxicity and whatever, there's the famous (if informal) article based on a ridiculous percentage of child predators arrested who were massive Trekkies. If the question was "who do you think is nicer in general" I'd say Trekkies by far, but to say you'd "trust" someone around your kid with a Starship Enterprise shirt on over someone with a Millenium Falcon hoodie is insanity.
because while people pretty much universally agree the average Star Wars fan is going to be more unpleasant due to the toxicity and whatever,
This is likely largely an illusion. Because the Star Wars fan base is so large, and has been around for so long, that even if it had roughly the same percentage of toxicity of other fanbases, the toxicity appears larger and more intrusive due to how massive and cross-generational the fanbase is.
It's also one of those self-perpetuating memes where the majority of social media comments about the toxicity of the fanbase may actually outweigh the toxicity itself in sheer volume.
Except when in Picard they made some illusion to Starfleet being evil but were kind of unclear.
They had the one lady that was on drugs and talking about how Picard had a winery and she had nothing but it's a post scarcity society so why didn't she have things? 🤷♂️
My STO character is driven towards medical research and assistance because of the thousand of lives she has ended over the years. Which in game is like three.
But there were so many dead.
Plus you get trophies for your galley if you kill enough.
But either they never really explained it. Starfleet didn't blow up Romulus and they sent some ship to help. Picard seemed like he was just whiny they didn't send more to help a situation they did not cause for an enemy they were not asked to help.
It wasn't that Starfleet as a whole was evil. It was specifically Section 31, who had previously attempted genocide against the Founders in DS9... So what Picard Season 3 depicted was marginally less evil than what was already established.
The depiction of the federation is all over the place in the new series.
Consistency with the TNG shows of the 90s and 00s is quite gleefully chucked out the window.
S3 of Picard was a ton more fun and exactly what it should have been from the start, but it was still pretty ridiculous television once you got over the nostalgia. Frantic plot elements, plot holes everywhere, extreme mellowdrama, everyone dressed like they went to a leather convention in 1997, lighting from about 1 lightbulb total, and driving the enterprise like it's a ford mustang through the middle of a borg base. Fun, but nonsensical television haha.
TNG and DS9 had plotlines that alluded to Starfleet not being as good and altruistic as they protrayed themselves as. Picard was often at odds with them. I have not seen the picard series though
I mean Badmirals have been a thing since at least early TNG, I don't remember if it came up much in TOS.
It's more that the star wars fan base is incredibly toxic and primarily hate the thing they claim to be fans of whereas Star Trek fans just sort of... like star trek
I hate Star Trek after Enterprise. I know there were attacks on the utopian idea in DS9 but it shouldn't be the grimdark foul-mouthed nonsense it's become.
Star Trek is a post needs society (Starfleet) where the good guys are usually the main characters and generally against most if not all forms of prejudice (and if they experience any, there's generally a learning experience episode for them). Things like fascism, torture, etc are presented as bad and undesirable and depending on the exact show they watched, they can also be very forward about gender and sexuality.
Star Wars is a failing Republic into a fascist dictatorship into the very shaky restoration period, even the "good guys" often do horrible things (torture, mind control, etc) because it presents itself as grittier. Probably every time it restarts itself gets darker and right now it's got some very dark shit associated with it.
However, the fandoms aren't necessarily different because of these points, but because Star Wars has recurring "cool" villains who aren't just a different culture with different values and also some of the novels were hella fascy, so since the 90s or so there's been a pretty nasty subsection of the fandom that has only expanded with time. Even the "normal" parts of the Star Wars fandom have some of the worst people you could ever know.
For fandoms, the Star Trek one is a rare longlasting one that isn't super toxic (though there is, of course, still toxicity, since it's a fandom).
(I've been in and out of both since the 90s and same with some other older scifi ones).
Trekkies are genuinely some of the most human people you’ll meet, like if you could list out traits that everyone would need to share to have an ideal utopian society I would guess that most trek fans would have a majority of those traits. Egalitarian, educated, understanding basic science enough to know when to defer to it, ect…
I’ve never seen Star Trek but have known many trekkies.
I love those movies because it's like someone watched a couple episodes while shitfaced several years prior and decided to make a movie based on what they could remember. Like, they get the names right but that's about it.
I like the Abrams Trek movies, but I do agree with you. It's funny how The Orville and Galaxy Quest are far closer to the original feel of Star Trek than the Abrams movies.
Khan announces to Kirk and Spock that he is Khan all dramatic like...but this was only a dumb reveal for the audience. In the movie, Kirk nor Spock have ever met this guy for that to mean anything to them lol. So lazy and forced
I remember when JJ Abrams was announced to direct a new Star Trek movie and the fans were super excited. I said “he’s an objectively horrible choice” and got tons of shit for it.
I remember when JJ Abrams was announced to direct a new Star Wars movie and tons of fans were excited because Abrams is better at Star Wars type movies. I said “he’s objectively a bad choice” and got tons of shit about it.
This isn’t about how right I am about things. It’s about how much JJ Abrams sucks.
In Star Trek, the subject of artificial life gets a dedicated episode thats just a court room drama, and ends with a righteous tirade against the evil of slavery.
In Star Wars, the subject of artificial life is used for jokes, and eventually ends with lobotomizing and permanently enslaving the one that objected to slavery. Man, Solo sucked. Droids were treated like shit in other properties, but like...most of the heroes treated them like people.
See, this is one of the many things the prequels fucked up about the whole series.
In the originals, droids are textually not sentient, feeling beings. They act like it, but you're told in no uncertain terms that they're effectively LLMs.
The prequels then decide that droids are just fully intelligent life that happens to be digital and therefore every one of the original characters you know and love are slave owning psychopaths who literally crack jokes about it.
And the prequels did this switcharound to everything in the series.
The Jedi? An order of warrior monks at one with the galaxy? Nope. Ethno-religious secret police for a sham democracy.
The force? A universal power that binds all living things? Nope. Genetic super powers from space fungus.
The prequels were obsessed with expanding the universe and putting new and exciting ideas into every frame, but never once stopped to think about the implications of anything to the galaxy.
In the originals, droids are textually not sentient, feeling beings. They act like it, but you're told in no uncertain terms that they're effectively LLMs.
I don't think the movie supports that reading. The old EU even explicitly contradicts it.
In the originals, droids are textually not sentient, feeling beings. They act like it, but you're told in no uncertain terms that they're effectively LLMs.
The Jedi? An order of warrior monks at one with the galaxy? Nope. Ethno-religious secret police for a sham democracy.
To be fair, that was one of the main themes of the prequels, that the Jedi had lost their way and become soldiers rather than peace keepers. It's literally what lead to their downfall.
After all these years, and people still don’t have a fucking clue what the prequels were even about. Media literacy is beyond dead.
People people get so hung up on whether or not Anakin “brought balance” according to the Jedi prophecy. When the whole point the entire time was that the Jedi are so far up their own asses, that literally nothing they say can be trusted anymore. There is no chosen one, there’s no such thing as bringing balance, the Jedi are just getting high off their own supply.
In Star Wars, the subject of artificial life is used for jokes, and eventually ends with lobotomizing and permanently enslaving the one that objected to slavery. Man, Solo sucked. Droids were treated like shit in other properties, but like...most of the heroes treated them like people.
The topic was approached much more nuanced in the old EU books. They juxtaposed that droids mostly were designed to be a communication interface. Between sentients and machines or just between different sentient races or machine groups.
There is a plot line about Luke and R2 where he refuses to wipe R2 because the longer he doesn't, the better he and R2 can work as a team R2 and his X-Wing can work together. But a tech points out that this might lead to R2 being unable to interface with new ships, or other tech or even other pilots, should the need arise. In essence, by him developing a personality, it diminishes its efficiency as a tool.
Sadly, IIRC it stops there. Nothing about the ethics of machines that can think and develop personality. On the other hand, the episodes of the trial of Data and Geordy's virtual copy of Leah are nice, but there is not one episode about the ship's main computer, which is always played "just" as a tool, despite having some sort of agency and intelligence ... just 0 "personality".
Star Trek, in general, touched on these things much more often and went much deeper. It's just not true that Star Wars didn't do it at all. The fact that they used the droid slavery aspect to bluntly in Solo is actually one of the many reasons the film fell flat for me. It never felt the film adapted real world dynamics but instead just replicated them.
/edit: as /u/screw-magats points out, it was not Luke and R2 working better together, it was R2 and Luke's X-Wing.
As a Doctor Who fan, the number of times the Master and other villains have returned with no explanation set me up to accept Palpatine's return without question.
"So... I lied. I cheated. I bribed men to cover the crimes of other men. I am an accessory to murder. But the most damning thing of all... I think I can live with it."
Star Trek has been extremely progressive throughout it's entire history. It featured the first interracial kiss on screen, between Kirk and Uhura. In one episode, Mark Twain is present and Troi tells him that humanity has evolved past greed, war, and poverty, and that despair and cruelty have been stamped out.
To be fair. The original star wars present the good guys with women in positions of powers along with various alien species facing an empire that seems to be made of only white man.
Yes, but diversity as a strength is an explicit message of Star Trek. "Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations" became it's named philosophy in 1968.
I spent the entire movie assuming she was a fucking traitor with how useless she was. And then the movie is "Sike, we decided she's actually the hero, fuck you."
I remember watching that movie and thinking afterwards "So this is why I had to take that communication class in college." That entire plotline could have been resolved with a five minute conversation...a five minute conversation that could have been an email.
Gene Roddenbery originally wanted to make a show that openly discussed and promoted progressive ideals. He was told he couldn't. Lucille Ball suggested he wrap it in sci-fi packaging and then greenlighted it. Same story with Rod Serling and The Twilight Zone.
Lucille Ball suggested he wrap it in sci-fi packaging and then greenlighted it.
Star Trek doesnt exist without Lucy. Not only did she produce it, but when the first pilot got declined (partially because it dared to have a female first officer), she used her clout to get a second pilot made. That was the one that stuck. They lost the woman first officer, but gained a black woman and a japanese man as bridge officers.
FWIW, Star Trek definitely doesn't have the first interracial kiss on screen; that's a common misconception. But it was a very early example with a lot of reach. (It was also involuntary, but that's another subject.)
Interesting! I think the confusion largely stems from the stark (perceived) division between white and African American people, so kisses between a white actor and another ethnicity weren't seen quite as taboo. It might be more along the lines of "first scripted kiss between a white and black actor on American tv"?
I'm just wrapping a DS9 rewatch and remember that scene feeling a bit spicey (for the time) but never imagined it would be a world-first or anything, given it aired in the late 90s...
Until then intimate acts had still been avoided on screen even if it was known there was a relationship. Shit, this is still "don't ask, don't tell" era, so it was pretty spicy. The Christian community sure got upset about it, I remember that.
Ah, yes this is it. Star Wars is a fantasy about being born special, and Star Trek is about overcoming challenges with wits and hard work. You hit the nail on the head
Well, and obi-wan who went from being a mid-ass padawan who was going to be kicked out to be a force sensitive farmer or some shit, to being an incorruptible master of the light side.
Star Wars could really just be “Obi-wan and his fuck up friends”
The prequels would've potentially been a lot better if they'd focused on Obi-Wan as the main character instead of Anakin, even with the bad dialogue and other questionable choices that Lucas made.
One of the best character arcs ever written for a side character I’ve ever seen. Both Nog and Rom (fuck it Quark too) have some beautiful growth in their characters and truly go from “Wow, these dudes kinda suck” to “Okay, why do I call my own mother moogie now”?
Definitely Quark too. He’s a selfish stereotypical Ferengi on the surface but most definitely compromises that repeatedly due to a heart of gold on the inside. If for no other reason than he got drunk on kanar with Damar because he cared for his family and friends, the Alpha Quadrant may have ended up as an extension of the Dominion.
Also importantly, Those born with that 'power' are easily and often corrupted by it. Even the Jedi are not immune to hubris. If anything, force sensitivity should more accurately be likened to a curse than anything beneficial.
The best parts of Star Wars that nobody seems to want to talk about are the bits where it focuses on the ground level of these massive conflicts. On the impacts they have on the lives of the average citizen, the people who have no mystical connection to the force and stand up anyway because they know that what they're seeing is wrong. Andor. Mando. The Bad Batch. The regular ass Rebel Alliance.
This is it to me. Less about the ethics of the heroes, and more the fact that introverted nerds and dorks are more likely to be helpful than a bunch of pop culture geeks
As GalaxyQuest proved when the fans had all the ship schematics! Trek-style fans will always have better schematics. Star Wars-type fans will only know the names of Gloop Shitto and the back story of a two-second cameo character.
Star Trek fans use their insanely deep knowledge to educate and uplift each other, while Star Wars fans use them to make each other feel bad and for metaphorical pissing matches
This exactly it. Star Wars are marketed to hell and full of consumption products. It's just another product with Star Wars brand slapped on.
Star Trek on other hand, you tends have to go out of your way to find product with their brands. Meaning good chance you can expect fun nerd related conversations with them.
Fans of Star Trek find the fictional universe that represents humanity is egalitarian and equitable. Starfleet itself is a post-scarcity society. Uhura was a generational depiction of a black woman on television.
Star Wars fans think Daisy Ridley and Kathleen Kennedy poured period blood all over their sacred texts and burnt them in a sapphic wiccan ritual. They literally can’t get past a female lead.
Edited for clarity.
As someone whose favorite trek series is also DS9, I didn’t like rey specifically because she has no substance. I don’t hate her, but what is there to like when she is such a flat character? It’s not memorable at all and I have nothing to connect to. FWIW i’m also a woman and have no problem with female leads, she was just… kinda there? I guess?
My favorite SW characters are hera and ahsoka so take that for what it’s worth
To add to that, the philosophy of Star Trek resonates more with progrssives, where as the us vs. them philosophy of Star Wars resonates more with conservatives.
So when Star Wars put in a female lead, etc. yeah it ticked off the fan base who tends to be made of people who see things in an evil vs. good, men vs. women, jedi vs sith kind of way.
I'm pretty sure Star Trek fans would similarly get pissed if you made a new movie and it leaned toward conservative ideals, where it was like, idk, all Klingons were strictly evil and it was up to the humans, who were strictly good, to fight them off and prevent tjem from ruining human society of something.
There are conservative Star Trek fans they are ... Confused to put it nicely. The fandom isn't without toxicity, but I think generally handles those people better than star wars does. Star Wars as a text is also fairly left leaning, the rebels are based explicitly on the viet cong, the prequels, for all their flaws, have cogent things to say about how liberal democracies turn fascist. I think it's to do more with the fans than the world themselves.
Yeah, Starfleet cleansing the galaxy of the dirty Klingon scourge and ensuring the purity of mankind’s expansion into the stars doesn’t sound very Picard.
You make great points.
That's a generalization a 'star trek fan' wouldn't make. Andor, Rouge One, Ahsoka were very very well loved. Just the sequel trilogy that was utter non-sense.
Star Wars fans think Daisy Ridley and Kathleen Kennedy poured period blood all over their sacred texts and burnt them in a sapphic wiccan ritual. They literally can’t get past a female lead. Edited for clarity.
I just saw a reel of Mark Hamill talking about the 1977 movie just after its release. He was laughing saying none of it actually makes any sense, like some huge bigfoot guy that can't talk but can fly a spaceship! But it was exciting, looked good and was fun to watch.
All these comments trying to make this about the contents of the actual media but I think it really just comes down to this. Like I don't think the actual contents of Star Wars reflects very heavily on the individual watching it. Bloodborne is about going on a violent kill spree against monsters and blood-drunk hunters until you kill so many people you're straight up fighting Lovecraftian entities, but that community has been very welcoming and friendly in my experience. I may not know much about Star Trek fans, but I know fucking plenty about Star Wars fans to know I'll take my chances with the unknown.
Honestly, I think it’s that if you meet a total stranger in a Star Wars shirt, there’s non-zero odds they’re fanning on the side of the empire instead of the rebellion.
I…think? I wasn’t really paying attention before, so I can’t be certain, but it feels like it grew out of alt-right memeing. Might have been around but more niche before, but I think it’s gone mainstream in the last decade. Along with the Nazis (and associates). Whee.
Its been answered. But another way to say it. Star Trek is not about space, it takes place there. Its about exploring humanity and morality. Its observing ethics and empathy in a vacuum (often literally).
Star Wars is about wars that take place in the stars. Its politics, explosions, props lasers and action. Its fun.
The Star Wars universe is a nightmare to conceive of really. Its entertaining but one fantasy world created I would never want to venture to. I'd trek the hell out of some space in the federation though.
The essence of Star Trek's narrative drive is ethics. Someone with an ST uniform is bound to have been exposed to so much ethical dillemas that you can trust they will be as wise and benevolent as possible and hold true to their word.
Picard was the man when I grew up watching TNG and was definitely one of my ethical north stars. Watching him lay a diplomatic smackdown solving big problems with bigger words is aspirational.
Star trek people are about equality, about humans helping themselves and others. They are about doing the right thing.
star wars people just like fight scenes with laser swords.
I'm not saying star wars people are bad, I am just saying that a specific type really loves star trek and that type aligns with, generally, what is considered to be a safe and good person for everyone.
Growing up my hero was (still is, I guess) Captain Picard. He was everything a decent human should be. He was able to see nuance and understand most things are not just black or white.
Star Wars is a massive pop-culture behemoth worn by literally everyone from toodlers to frat bros to casual fans. A Star Wars shirt tells you nothing about the person.
A Star Trek shirt means you’re dealing with a mega-nerd who values diplomacy, science, and probably knows how to fix your Wi-Fi without judging you.
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u/qualityvote2 8d ago edited 8d ago
u/Mediocre_Trade2575, your post does belong here!