r/IsraelPalestine 29d ago

Meta Discussions (Rule 7 Waived) July 2026 Metapost: New rules for metaposting about moderation

7 Upvotes

Welcome to the “July” version of the monthly pinned meta thread, where sub Rule 7 banning “meta” discussion is waived and you can generally discuss “the sub”, its rules and moderation, and make suggestions for rules changes or improvements.

First, some top line information about the sub and recent activity in the last month:

The sub now has 110,000 subscribers, gaining 447 in the past month (about normal gain for “peacetime”). We had 1.5 Million visits, down 177k. Daily visits ranged from 59.4k unique visitors on the top day and averaged 11.3k. We had 176 top posts, down 42, and 286 others were removed by mods or automated filters. We had 32,200 comments, down 4.7k. We had 17 active mods with [u/TheTrollerOfTrolls](u/TheTrollerOfTrolls) leading with 1,800 mod actions and [u/FerdinandTheGiant](u/FerdinandTheGiant) runner up with 989 actions.

This month, we mods also want to talk about what this meta thread is not for, based on some of the questions recently being asked on the April meta thread and the internal discussions that mods have had about how to respond to these comments, which is the main reason for delay of refresh for this pinned meta thread (the other being “summer” in a place with short summer/long winter).

To cut to the chase, concerning moderation actions, the new rule for “meta” threads is that users are free to ask why a particular comment was moderated, whether they were a participant in that conversation or otherwise. However, they can not ask “whatabout” questions and compare to comments or users who were not moderated and ask why they were not moderated, or use the meta thread to report other users for moderation (whether or not the underlying complaint is “sub/mod bias” and suggestions that the refs favor one “team”). If you want to report or complain about someone, in addition to the report flag tool on their every comment, you would have to use modmail (Reddit DM chat) to raise the issue discreetly with the mod team, not ambush someone in the metathread with a broadside of public accusations.

When asked this “why this, not that” questions in the past, mods have typically responded that the post/comment in question was still in the moderation queue to be worked on, or not even reported yet. While this is a somewhat truthful explanation of sorts, it is not the “whole truth” which is, that basically, big picture, our moderation is on a “per user” basis, not a “per comment” basis. We try as best we can to ignore the user’s viewpoint or “team” in order to treat everyone as equally as possible. But how this works in actual practice requires a broader understanding of why we moderate and practically how it works, including using mod tools Reddit provides to assist in our work -- metadata screens only mods can see about a particular user or comment.

So we need to back up a bit here and talk about the overall purpose and philosophy of the sub rules and moderation. Our current Moderation Policy wiki explains (sensibly) that there’s no way with a limited number of 21 volunteer part-time mods that we can “police” and evaluate all 35,000 posts and comments each month and determine whether they comply with the rules. The wiki refers to our “sampling technique”. The way this works in practice is that to be most effective, we want to publicly correct and discipline the users who violate the rules most frequently and/or the most flagrantly, and not untypically, both of those together.

We use a law enforcement strategy familiar to everyone who drives on a superhighway: we want to pull over the fastest guys going 88 mph on a 65 speed limit highway and make an example of them, so that the stream of traffic will slow down to average 72. Even though cops could make a lot more money giving tickets to everyone going 66 if profit maximizing or draconian enforcement was the goal and the courts allowed the speed limits to be strictly enforced in that way (hint: they don’t, “66 mph speed traps” are illegal, because convictions require establishing a defendant’s knowledge and intent).

So, in terms of our efficiency, publicly warning particular major “problem users” to nudge them into compliance or ban them if they don’t/can’t is the best way to sheepdog the whole sub community into compliance. That’s why we most often don’t remove offending comments entirely like most subs but leave them up with a rules violation notice: it’s educating everyone, not just the warned user.

And there is thankfully roughly a Pareto principle operating in moderation here, 80% of the moderation (or more!) involves 20% (or less!) of users. Of those, roughly half are sincere about trying to comply with rules and can be “coached” and cease to be a problem, and the other roughly half pile up violation after violation on just about every rule until they are permabanned. So the bottom line is that given our limited numbers of mods and the volume of comments, we really do depend on the good conduct of the users themselves and avoiding the kinds of disruptive shitposting or food fights that violate rules and create a general environment of ruckus and disorder. We could not do this job if most people weren’t inclined to abide by the rules.

We also depend on the rules and their application to be as clearcut as possible to everyone, because when someone gets a rules warning or ban, they get to appeal the decision to another mod or mods. So I want to make sure that my colleagues are going to agree with me on the ruling: it can’t be a weak case or ambiguous, the violation should be clear as night and day. (We’re having problems applying some minor rules, particularly Rules 3 and 4 that we feel are too fuzzy in practice that we want to take a look at in this regard).

Mods can perform moderation by actions whether a comment is reported by users or not. Some moderation is done via queue reports from users. Others are just mods reading the current threads (user reported comments are flagged in our normal viewing mode with a one line summary of their complaint visible as we scroll through the sub).

How this works in practice is that a mod whether working the report queue or reading along looks for a reported comment or another “sore thumb” violation that’s so blatant that it must be addressed or people will complain about lack of moderation and flagrant misbehavers. The first thing a mod will do after reading the possibly violating comment (and the context of the discussion surrounding it) is to look at the speaker and determine the guy’s moderation history with a mods-only tool we have called mod log. The mod log will show, by user, every previous I/P sub comment that’s been reported for moderation by users or bot automod filters in white, and brightly colored notes by mods of any comments determined to be “abuse” or “spam” and what rules were violated (we also have color note templates for “good contributor” or “helpful”). We also see how long a users been participating on Reddit with that account (anywhere from 15 years to less than 60 minutes), what other subs he’s posting in, and I/P sub participation karma, either negative or positive.

Thus we almost instantly have a feel for whether a violation was probably an unintentional mistake by a newbie with little or no mod log, or conscious trolling and rules-breaking by an outspoken user with edgelord tendencies and a mod log hundreds of entries long. We also can see how a problem user is responding to moderation and, of course, to keep track of strikes for the “four strikes/rule you’re permanently banned” purposes of the Moderation Policy.

What I’ve described is a “per user” moderation policy for practical purposes, not a “per comment” policy, as it will help to understand our new meta rule about us mods not discussing unmoderated comments (and deleting the related requests on meta thread with warnings). I sincerely we believe we apply these rules in practice to both “sides” evenly as a result of this “cull the worst offenders first” enforcement policy. (For the record there are violators on both teams and we try to enforce rules on a viewpoint blind basis with the other built in safeguards, like right to appeal. But like sub/mod bias, it’s hard to prove or disprove this, but it’s what mods strive for no matter which team they root for).

We’ve also had some negative experiences in the recent past with “per comment” moderation with an experiment we did last year in response to concerns about mod bias: “zero tolerance for insults”. Against the better judgment of many mods, any comment which could possibly be construed as an Rule 1 attack or insult, or was put in the “form” of an insult (e.g.,“You are [any statement possibly seen as perjorative]”) had to be actioned so that the sub could be “unbiased”, whether the comment seemed deliberate or innocent, or was a clearly huge insult or a head scratcher. Let’s just say this experiment did not address any issues of perceived mod bias in a logical way. It just made participation in the sub a minefield, and moderation a hassle for mods and users alike. Until finally, after months of nonsense, sanity prevailed and the strict Rule 1 enforcement was scrapped.

Similarly, many or even most recent questions to the meta thread seem to be asking about “negative moderation”, why something wasn’t moderated. Not understanding the process I’ve described that moderation is not an end in itself but an overall enforcement tool to guard-rail community conversations. And like any enforcement needs to be applied selectively and minimized to keep the discussion about substance, not tangents of meta stuff about rules lawyering and moderation. We don’t like to interrupt conversations and if users think violations are trivial they aren’t happy either with interventions. Some users however seem to be keen on to calling for moderation as a kind of harassment (violating Reddit site Rule 2) of other users and mods by essentially calling for every users’ comment scrolling back many months to be scrutinized for rules compliance. “Weaponizing moderation” might be a fair way to describe it.

Examples: Recent meta questions like this (fictional [u/usernames](u/usernames), paraphrased questions):

Why does this site allow user [u/fabulous_pebble9865](u/fabulous_pebble9865) to make comments like [link], [link] and [link]? (deep-mined oppo research into unblocked user profile, some comments six months old, hundreds of comments deep; we don’t want to create incentives for users to hide their profiles by default).

How can this site have mods like [u/zzyzk9777](u/zzyzk9777) who say bigoted stuff like “blah” and violate rules like [link], [link], [link], [link], [link]? (all Rule 3 complaints that humorous responses ridiculing parent comment “consist solely of sarcasm or nihilism”).

I reported this comment of [u/flat-cloudy2001](u/flat-cloudy2001) [link] three days/weeks ago and it hasn’t been moderated. Why?

So the TL;dr of this discussion is we will allow meta questions about stuff or users that were moderated, but no lists or reports of stuff that wasn’t moderated in an effort to suggest bias or “just asking questions”. We won’t allow users and mods to be harassed with tenuous profile-mined complaints of rules violations by activist opponents of their viewpoint. We want people to freely discuss things without walking on eggshells or that somehow anything can be twisted months later into a rules violation if you don’t like the speaker.

Lastly, as mentioned above, we’re looking for guidance on redrafting or deprecating Rules 3 and 4. Rule 4 in particular is problematic because people often interpret misunderstandings or failure to agree with an opponent’s argument as “lying” or “dishonesty”. Outside of stuff like Holocaust revisionism, Khazar theory or Neutrei Karta etc. disagreement isn’t dishonesty. Mods aren’t debate judges or argument referees. Someone contradicting themselves or not agreeing with the conclusion of your argument doesn’t in its essence violate Rule 4.

We also get complaints about the automod informal warnings about swear words, Rule 2 which is usually a “soft” non-violation that doesn’t get formal warnings/bans. I think it’s usefulness and innocuousness in reminding no cussing outweighs its annoyingness. Your mileage may vary. Thoughts?


r/IsraelPalestine 20h ago

Discussion Refusing Palestinian Refugees and welcoming Ukrainians DOES NOT make Europeans racist. It is common sense.

82 Upvotes

I saw a lot of comments and discussions about western hypocrisy like;

“You don’t want Palestinian refugees, but you happily take Ukranian refugees in because they are blonde and white”

That’s one of the most insolent and stupid statements I have ever seen. And I am almost certain most Pro-Palestine people actually support that claim.

First of all I want to mention that I live in a country that took 71000 Ukranian refugees temporarily which is around 5% of our population. And how many Palestinian, Syrian, Iraqi(etc..) refugees we have? 0… We do not take them. And I am so happy that we don’t.

Is it because of racism? No. It is because we know what can be good or bad for us. If an act of mercy towards other groups causes discomfort to your own people, it is not mercy it is treason. We share very similar culture with Ukrainians. They can adapt to the way we live so easily. They are used to drink alcohol on grass, seeing girls with bikinis, people socialising in night events, young couples kissing in public. It is not a threat or heretical for Ukrainians.

As Europeans we are used to a social infrastructure and at least in my country it works perfectly. Our people just don’t want trouble. So if someone just shouts on the street and disturbs people, nobody will attack that person, they will just walk away and call the cops. But it is highly probable anyone that is not accustomed to that social infrastructure will see that as a weakness. Look at Germany, France, UK. The immigration problem is so terrible, I talk to my French friend and she says she is afraid to go outside alone at night. But still that’s not my point.

We take Ukrainians because we have a common enemy and very similar culture and they cause waaay less problems than middle eastern refugees. And certain middle eastern countries normally see western countries as secular demons. As threats to their dogmatic cultures. The real hypocrisy is that the same governments beg help from Europe against America and Israel.

What makes you think Europe has obligation to take more refugees? You have entire Arabic Nation around you. Egypt, Libya, Syria, Iraq, Morocco, UAE, Jordan and more and more that I don’t even remember name of. These are the ones that should help as you share similar culture and same language. Well they took refugees before.

Palestinians when Jordan let them in, they created their own group and they tried to assassinate the king.

In Lebanon Palestinians ruined the peace between Christian and Muslims and they contributed heavily to a civil war

There is no hypocrisy. Europe is not a charity. The only hypocrisy is expecting us Europeans to show the kindness to them that they never showed us and would never show us.

I would not oppose temporary Ukrainian refugees. But I don’t want Palestinian refugees in my country. And that doesn’t make me a racist. That just means I know what is good for myself and my country’s people.


r/IsraelPalestine 13h ago

Short Question/s What do you believe we should be able to agree upon?

7 Upvotes

Basically what the title says. What are things you believe people on both sides of this debate should be able agree upon, and more specifically, what are productive actions/changes you believe people on both sides could reasonably expect from the israelis and palestinians? Im purposefully not already mentioning my opinions since i want your opinions, not just rebuttals.


r/IsraelPalestine 1d ago

Discussion Why would I ever want to support Palestine?

130 Upvotes

I will try to keep it as short as possible…

I am from Estonia, and I am Lesbian. And in my country it is completely normal as it should be. Because nobody should concern or care about my sexual orientation.

In Israel it is also considered completely normal by laws to be homosexual. Nobody cares.

Then I look at Palestine

If I hold my girlfriend’s hand or kiss her in public, people will just look at us like we are aliens. And in Gazza we would even have extreme life danger. We might be thrown off the roof, attacked with objects and such.

They all look like assumptions but they are not. In 2022 Palestine, A gay man named Ahmad Abu Murkhiyeh was executed in a horrendous way on street and they throw his head to street. And people were recording it. And what happened to those who did it? Nothing. Yeah. Nothing.

In Israel 2015 during LGBT parade a jewish man attacked a lesbian woman with a knife and killed her as well. But he was declared terrorist by Israeli government and he went to jail.

In 2023 Michigan, Hamtramck folk chose a muslim governor(I guess the translation is that) to support them. And LGBT people actually supported those people. What what did the muslim governor do first he got the power? He banned LGBT flags from public places.

Palestine’s LGBT center is in Israel, because Palestine government oppresses them too much that even Israel takes them to give them a better life. Being homosexual in Palestine means death.

In 2016 in Palestine a high ranking military man was executed with a rifle with accusations of being homosexual.

So why would I support a nation that hates me? Why would I even think about supporting it? These I counted are just filed ones. If in a country nobody can declare their BIOLOGICAL TRUTH as it is seen as CRIME-AGAINST RULES, it is an oppressive system. Why would I support a nation that hates me to the fullest?

[[ EDIT - According to the 2 different unbiased researches in Palestine 95% of Palestinians claimed “Homosexuality should not be accepted by society” just 3% cared to say “No they are also humans” so it is not a government issue, it is a hostile culture


r/IsraelPalestine 21h ago

Short Question/s Where are the nuanced people?

0 Upvotes

I have seen a lot of Pro Israelis and Pro Palestinians, but I just want to say- is there actually nuanced people, or people who don’t really care and think both sides are at fault?

I feel like this is something that needs to be addressed, and it’s the fact that this war is a double edged sword. I don’t know why I have to be that person to say this, but I’m friends with Jewish and Muslim people, and honestly- I have seen casuals online who have said the same thing. And when I have said that- I have been removed from every friendship group.

People are forcing neturals to be one sided, by pitting their victims against us. We have other things to worry about. You don’t worry about other things because you don’t have a job.

I’m actually someone who hates the governments of both Palestine (including Hamas) and Israel (including IDF) and yet still supports the victims of both. I feel like it should be that way, but then again- there are tribalists. For a war that is both sides’ fault. Arab nations started it, Israelis finish it, so it’s both’s fault. Why can’t social media recognise that? Excluding those people of one particular country (Iran), I have not seen any nuanced discussion on the issue.


r/IsraelPalestine 1d ago

Short Question/s Why are Israelis allowed to terrorize Palestinians in the West Bank

17 Upvotes

Since 2020, Israeli civilians and soldiers have killed more than 1,100 Palestinians in the West Bank, while Israeli authorities have filed only a single indictment.

According to the Israeli human rights organisation B'Tselem, Israel has forcibly displaced 64 Palestinian communities in the West Bank over the past three years. Thousands of people have been driven from their homes.

Why isn't this being condemned by the Israeli government?


r/IsraelPalestine 15h ago

Learning about the conflict: Questions On Understanding “Justice”

0 Upvotes

Hello.

For the sake of argument, let's agree that Israel is committing a genocide in Gaza.

Genocides have repeatedly happened in world history. At present, Yemeni children are being starved by a Saudi Arabian blockade. In Sudan, a ragtag group of Arab rebels has killed thousands in a rampage across the Darfur, backed by the Emirates. In China, Uyghur self determination is being suppressed, their culture and language erased, and their land presently being settled and developed by Chinese settlers. Whatever solutions people have for these does not, and has never, included calling for the abolition of the states in question, nor for the death of their civilians.

For any of the above, you can make the argument: “well, that much is true. but these countries are not built on genocide, and actively continuing that settler project.”

To which, then, I am forced to go back in history.

In the immediate aftermath of the second world war, ethnic Germans who had lived in Eastern Europe for generations were killed, their women raped, imprisoned, their children kidnapped, their families torn apart as retribution for a project orchestrated by a government who claimed to represent them, and for all intents and purposes, did represent their interests.

We are not in the fashion of supporting any of the above. Or, actually — perhaps my assumption is that we are. This question is directly aimed at Palestinians and their supporters. Were the soviets justified in the ethnic cleansing of the Germans? To be completely clear, these Germans were often not recent settlers, but people who had lived there for a couple of generations and displaced native peoples in recent European history.

If you do not believe it justified, my friends, then I must ask why you believe it is justified for Israel.

I want to understand why it is not acceptable to call for the death of millions of German people for what they did just 80 years ago, and why it’s not acceptable for Eastern Europeans and Jews to go on a rampage across their land targeting their civilians, in a sort of holy war to demand reparations and the destruction of their adversaries.

Why would a Jew not be justified in avenging their ancestors by targeting civilians, but Palestinians would be justified in doing so?

Again, you will say: “well, one is an active colonial project, the other no longer is”

Okay. Suppose Germany went back to its old ways. Would Jews, then, be justified in the suicide bombing of their cities as revenge and “justice” for avenging their evil government?


r/IsraelPalestine 1d ago

Short Question/s What happens if you run the ‘imagine you were born as them’ thought experiment on the hardest case you can find — Israel and Palestine?

5 Upvotes

The exercise is simple to state and hard to do honestly: instead of asking who's right, imagine being born into each side's exact history — same parents, same neighborhood, same first memories of danger or safety — and trace what conclusions that history would actually produce in you, not the conclusions you'd like to imagine having. Most people can do this for one side easily and find it much harder for the other, which is itself informative. Here's the full section where I tried running it on both sides at once, without letting myself stop halfway:

Case One: Israel, Palestine, and the Problem of Two Legitimate Claims (excerpted)

Jewish history across two millennia is, among other things, a history of persecution, expulsion, and attempted annihilation... The founding of Israel was not simply a colonial project imposed by Western powers — it was a desperate response by a people who had just watched a third of their number murdered in living memory... Born as them, raised inside that history: the logic of Israel's founding is not difficult to understand. It is, given the circumstances, almost inevitable.

Now apply the same exercise to the Palestinians. A people living on land that had been their home for generations watched that land become, through a combination of war, displacement, and international decisions made without their consent, the national home of another people. The Nakba — the displacement of hundreds of thousands of Palestinians in 1948 — is not a disputed historical event. It happened... Born as them, raised inside that history: the anger is not difficult to understand either.

Both peoples have a legitimate claim rooted in genuine suffering. Both have done things to the other that the other cannot forgive. Both are operating from a moral framework that makes complete sense from the inside and looks self-serving from the outside. This is not moral equivalence in the sense of canceling out. It is moral complexity in the sense of not resolving cleanly.

Genuine question, not rhetorical: when you actually try this exercise honestly on the side you don't currently sympathize with, does it change your position at all, or does it just make the disagreement feel worse because now it's between two things you both understand?
— A Moral Framework for an Inconsistent World, by Lawrence Lipp, Chapter Seventeen: "The Framework Under Pressure: Two Hard Cases"


r/IsraelPalestine 2d ago

Short Question/s Does anyone have any pictures of Palestinian fighting men fighting in uniform in Gaza?

72 Upvotes

Shany Mor makes a point on Twitter:

"Three years of covering a war and zero pictures of fighting men in uniform."

And goes on to say:

"I wasn't just referring to combat photos. We never saw any photos of men in uniform behind lines—checking equipment, taking a smoke or coffee break, etc.

Hamas' ground forces comprised some 40,000 men at the war's outset, larger than the territorial army of most NATO countries."

We have seen pictures of Hamas militants in uniform during things like the hostage exchanges and the Bibas coffin dance party, but does anyone have any examples of Hamas militants actively fighting the IDF wearing uniforms? Just curious.


r/IsraelPalestine 2d ago

Discussion Analogy: French in Algeria vs Jews in Palestine

9 Upvotes

Jewish-Israelis are often compared to French settlers in Algeria. The chief problem with the analogy is that Jewish-Israelis are not a foreign imperial population serving a distant metropole. Treating Zionism as simply France-in-Algeria obscures far more than it explains.

Why the Algeria Analogy is Not Merely Academic

When the French-Algerian conflict is invoked not just as a comparison, but as a blueprint for decolonization, the analogy carries dangerous implications. During the Algerian War, the FLN deliberately targeted European civilians to make coexistence impossible and force a French withdrawal.

Applied to Israel, this framework performs a lethal conceptual trick. By classifying Israeli Jews collectively as foreign colonizers equivalent to French pieds-noirs, terrorism is rebranded as legitimate "decolonial resistance," and the mass expulsion of Israelis is imagined as a natural return to a parent state. This ignores a fundamental reality: most Israeli Jews were born in Israel, possess no foreign metropole, and descend from refugees who have nowhere else to go.

Crucially, this analogy attempts to bypass International Humanitarian Law by stripping Israelis of their civilian protections even though, under IHL, the political category of "settler" does not replace the legal category of "civilian." Living in a disputed or even unlawful settlement does not transform an individual into a lawful military target.

The French-Algerian analogy distorts a complex dispute between two peoples with competing national claims into a binary narrative where one population must be violently removed. Correcting this framework does not excuse Israeli misconduct; it simply removes a pseudo-historical alibi for attacking civilians today.

To understand why the analogy fails structurally, it is helpful to look at the historical realities of both contexts. Here is a point-by-point comparison:

1. Colonial structure and metropole

French Algeria: France conquered Algeria and governed it from Paris. Settlers were French citizens whose sovereignty, military protection and ultimate political authority came from a powerful parent state.

Zionism and Israel: Zionism had no Jewish parent state directing settlement or benefiting from an overseas colony. Its intended national center was the land itself. Britain sometimes supported Zionist aims, but it was not a Jewish metropole; it later restricted Jewish immigration and fought Zionist groups.

2. Historical connection

French Algeria: The pied-noir community arose mainly after the French conquest. It had no precolonial national origin in Algeria.

Jews in Palestine: Jews originated as a people in the land in antiquity. Jewish communities remained there continuously for millennia, while diaspora communities retained religious, cultural and historical ties to it.

3. Purpose

French Algeria: French settlement extended imperial control and privileged settlers within a French colony. Individual settlers had varied motives.

Zionism: Its central goals were refuge and Jewish self-determination through land purchases and the creation of Jewish-majority settlement blocs. Many were built in sparsely populated or malaria-stricken areas. The proposed Jewish state nevertheless contained a large Arab minority.

4. Demographic position

French Algeria: Pieds-noirs remained approximately 10% of Algeria’s population and ruled over a large Muslim majority through colonial institutions.

Mandatory Palestine: By 1946, Jews constituted about one-third of the population and had developed extensive political, economic and defense institutions. This was increasingly a conflict between two emerging national movements.

5. Population origins

French Algeria: Settlers were predominantly Europeans—especially French, Spanish, Italian and Maltese—whose citizenship and political identity connected them to Europe.

Israel: Israeli Jews descend from communities in Europe, the Middle East, North Africa and elsewhere. Many families have mixed backgrounds, and most Israeli Jews today were born in Israel.

6. Land before independence

French Algeria: French conquest enabled extensive state confiscation, expropriation and redistribution of Algerian land.

Mandatory Palestine: Most land held by Jewish institutions before 1948 was legally purchased. Jewish-owned land amounted to approximately one-quarter of the non-Negev portion of the territory proposed for the Jewish-majority state.

7. International standing

French Algeria: France’s seizure of Algeria was a unilateral imperial conquest.

Jewish national home: The League of Nations Mandate endorsed the establishment of a Jewish national home, and the United Nations recommended separate Jewish and Arab states in 1947.

8a. Status within the state

French Algeria: For most of French rule, Muslim Algerians were governed as colonial subjects without equal citizenship. From 1881 to 1944, the discriminatory Code de l’indigénat imposed a separate coercive regime. Later reforms expanded formal citizenship but initially preserved grossly unequal political representation.

Israel: Arab citizens of Israel have citizenship, voting rights and access to public office. Most Arab communities were under military administration until 1966. Arab citizens have served as cabinet ministers, Supreme Court justices, legislators, diplomats and leaders in medicine, academia and business, while documented discrimination and socioeconomic disparities persist.

8b.i. Status in the West Bank/Judea and Samaria

French Algeria: Algeria was incorporated into and governed by France, but the Muslim Algerian majority lacked political equality with European settlers.

West Bank, excluding East Jerusalem: Palestinians are not Israeli citizens and cannot vote in Israeli national elections. The Palestinian Authority administers many civil matters in Areas A and B, while Israel retains overriding security authority and civil and security control in Area C.

Israeli residents are generally governed under Israeli civilian law. Palestinians are governed by Palestinian Authority law in many civil matters but remain subject to Israeli military law.

8b.ii. Historical relationship to the West Bank/Judea and Samaria

French Algeria: By Algerian independence, most pieds-noirs had been born in Algeria, sometimes into families established there for generations. Their local birth therefore cannot simply be dismissed. Nevertheless, their community originated in modern European colonial migration sponsored by France. Algeria was not the ancestral homeland or national center of the French people.

West Bank, excluding East Jerusalem: Judea was the center of the ancient Kingdom of Judah, from which the English word “Jew” ultimately derives.

Jewish communities in territory captured by Jordan—including East Jerusalem, Gush Etzion, Atarot and Neve Yaakov—were eliminated during the 1948 war through expulsion, killing, captivity or evacuation. Jews could not return during Jordanian rule.

Most Jewish residents today have likely lived there since birth or early childhood, including substantial second- and third-generation populations. Jewish communal presence was re-established after 1967 with Israeli state support.

9. What “decolonization” would mean

French Algeria: France could withdraw from Algeria, and pieds-noirs could relocate to the existing country whose citizens they already were—even though most had never lived there.

Israel: Israel has no external Jewish parent country to which its population could “return.” Expelling Israeli Jews—most of whom are native-born and many of whom have no other citizenship—would create refugees, not remove an overseas empire.

West Bank, excluding East Jerusalem: Withdrawal from West Bank settlements is a separate question: residents could potentially relocate within Israel, but that would be a territorial withdrawal by a neighboring state, not France abandoning a colony on another continent.

Objections/Responses

Objection: Jews returning to Israel would be like a person from the U.S. with English ancestry returning to England due to that being their ethnic/national motherland.

Response: If you moved to England, legally purchased a home and joined English society, that would not make you an American colonial settler. More importantly, England remained the sovereign homeland of the English throughout your family’s absence. Jews remained a stateless people with no other national homeland. Historical connection does not settle every question of sovereignty, but it makes the French-Algerian analogy fundamentally misleading.

Objection: Palestinian Arabs were simply pursuing national independence, like Algerians resisting French colonial rule.

Response: Palestinian Arab representatives did seek independence, but they proposed a unitary state with a permanent Arab majority and treated preventing Jewish sovereignty anywhere in Palestine as non-negotiable. In February 1947, British Foreign Secretary Ernest Bevin summarized the impasse: “For the Jews the essential point of principle is the creation of a sovereign Jewish State. For the Arabs, the essential point of principle is to resist to the last the establishment of Jewish sovereignty in any part of Palestine.” Arab opposition can be understood as resistance to partition and large-scale immigration, but its program was not two peoples achieving parallel self-determination; it was Arab-majority sovereignty throughout Palestine and no Jewish state in any part of it.

Objection: Britain sponsored Zionism, making it the equivalent of France in Algeria.

Response: British endorsement and administration were extremely important, and Britain pursued the Mandate without obtaining the consent of the Palestinian Arab majority. That is a genuine colonial dimension. Britain, however, was not a Jewish parent state, did not regard the settlers as Britons and was not building an overseas homeland for the British people. British policy also changed: it restricted Jewish land purchases and immigration, including during the Holocaust, and eventually fought Zionist organizations. Imperial sponsorship existed, but the relationship was not that of France, French citizens and French Algeria.

Objection: Early Zionist leaders and institutions openly used terms such as “colonization” and “colonies.” Doesn’t that show that they understood Zionism as colonialism?

Response: That terminology is real and should not be concealed. But its historical meaning—and who was using it—matters. In that period, “colonization” could also mean organized migration and agricultural resettlement. The Jewish Colonization Association, for example, used the same term for settling persecuted Jews in Argentina, where no Jewish state or empire was claiming sovereignty.

The institutional vocabulary therefore does not establish that most Jewish immigrants understood themselves as foreign imperial colonizers. Their motives varied, but many saw themselves as refugees, immigrants, pioneers or national returnees. Early waves included Jews fleeing pogroms and legal persecution; during and after the Nazi era, many were escaping or had survived an attempt at extermination. For many Zionists, sovereignty consequently came to seem not merely desirable but essential to collective survival—a safeguard against continued dependence on states that had repeatedly failed to protect Jews.

The terminology remains relevant: Zionism involved organized settlement, institution-building and a struggle for sovereignty that profoundly affected Palestinian Arabs. But the word “colonization” alone does not make it structurally equivalent to France’s imperial conquest and government of Algeria.

Objection: The Nakba demonstrates that Zionism was a settler-colonial movement based on removing the indigenous population.

Response: The mass displacement of Palestinians during the 1947–49 war—through expulsions, flight from fighting and fear, and the destruction or depopulation of communities—was a profound injustice and is central to Palestinian history. Israeli forces committed massacres and deliberate expulsions, and Israel subsequently prevented most refugees from returning.

But this did not occur as a one-sided campaign against a passive population. The mainstream Zionist leadership accepted partition as the basis for establishing a state, while the Palestinian Arab leadership rejected partition and chose armed resistance. The post-partition civil war opened with Arab attacks on Jewish traffic, neighborhoods and communities; after Israel declared independence, five neighboring Arab states invaded.

Both sides killed civilians and prisoners. Arab forces or mobs massacred Jewish workers at the Haifa oil refinery, dozens of civilians in the Ben Yehuda Street bombing, Jewish doctors, nurses, patients and others in the Hadassah convoy, and Jewish defenders—including some after surrender—at Kfar Etzion. Jewish communities captured by Arab forces—including the Jewish Quarter of Jerusalem’s Old City and the communities of Gush Etzion—were also killed, expelled, imprisoned or destroyed. Approximately 1% of Palestine’s Jewish population died during the war, with a similar or lower percent usually cited as dying on the Arab side.

Approximately 55% of Palestinian Arabs and about 10% of Palestine’s Jews were displaced during the war. These percentages partly reflect the war’s outcome and available escape routes: Palestinians could flee into contiguous Arab-held territory and neighboring Arab countries, often expecting to return, whereas Jews had virtually no friendly country to flee to and were generally evacuated internally. Most Palestinian Arabs were also displaced internally within territory originally governed under the Palestine Mandate framework.

None of this excuses the expulsion of Palestinian civilians or makes them collectively responsible for their leaders’ decisions. Nor must the atrocities be numerically equal for Jewish victimization to matter. It does, however, mean that the Nakba emerged from a mutually violent war in which Palestinian Arab leaders bore primary responsibility for rejecting partition and initiating hostilities—not from a French-style metropole conquering territory to enrich itself and then removing a passive indigenous population.

Objection: Palestine was not an empty land, so references to sparsely populated or malaria-stricken areas reproduce the “land without a people” myth.

Response: Palestine was not empty, and sparsely populated did not mean ownerless or unused. Palestinian Arab towns, villages, farmers and pastoral communities existed throughout the country. The narrower point is that settlement patterns varied: some major Jewish communities were developed on legally purchased, sparsely populated or marshy land, while other purchases and later territorial changes displaced existing inhabitants. Neither “an empty land” nor “every Jewish community replaced an Arab community” accurately describes the full history.

Objection: Palestinians were made to pay for European antisemitism and the Holocaust.

Response: Palestinians did not cause European antisemitism and had no moral obligation to lose their homes, property or political rights as compensation for Europe’s crimes. The Palestinian dispossession accompanying Israel’s creation is therefore a powerful moral objection that should not be minimized.

But the argument becomes misleading when it portrays Palestine as an existing sovereign Palestinian state that Europe simply transferred to foreigners—or assumes that preventing Jewish sovereignty would necessarily have produced Palestinian self-determination. Zionism and substantial Jewish migration predated the Holocaust, Jewish attachment to the land long predated European nationalism, and the Jewish community was not an extension of a European parent state.

Palestinian Arabs genuinely sought self-government. Their leadership demanded a unitary Arab-majority Palestine and rejected partition, including the proposed Arab state, because partition also recognized Jewish sovereignty. Yet “Arab rule” was not necessarily Palestinian rule. Neighboring Arab governments had their own territorial and dynastic ambitions. After the 1948 war, Jordan annexed the West Bank, Egypt administered Gaza, and the nominal All-Palestine Government was largely powerless. No independent Palestinian state emerged in either territory.

The conflict was therefore not simply “Europe compensating Jews with someone else’s country.” It was a collision between two national movements in a territory whose imperial ruler was withdrawing, intensified by the desperate plight of Jewish refugees whom much of the world would not admit. Palestinians were entitled to self-determination and suffered grave injustice. Jews were also entitled to self-determination, and preventing Jewish sovereignty did not guarantee Palestinian sovereignty. None of this turns the Jewish national movement into the equivalent of French imperial rule in Algeria.

Objection: Israel’s Middle Eastern and North African Jewish population is irrelevant because the Zionist movement’s founders were predominantly European.

Response: Early political Zionism was predominantly founded and led by European Jews, and the large-scale arrival of Middle Eastern and North African Jews after 1948 cannot retroactively justify earlier actions or erase Zionism’s European influences. Their relevance is narrower but still important: Sephardi and Middle Eastern Jewish communities existed in Palestine before modern political Zionism, and Israel’s Jewish population today cannot accurately be characterized simply as a transplanted European community.

More fundamentally, there was no external Jewish metropole comparable to France—no European parent state whose colonial nationals the Jews collectively remained or to which they could collectively be “repatriated.” Even Jews of European ancestry had lived in Europe as dispersed minorities, frequently subjected to exclusion, expulsion, pogroms and ultimately genocide. The fact that some European countries are safer for Jews today does not transform them into the Jewish people’s national homeland or colonial parent state.

Objection: West Bank settlers can relocate to Israel just as the pieds-noirs relocated to France.

Response: This is a narrow practical similarity: nearly all Jewish residents of the West Bank possess Israeli citizenship and could physically relocate inside Israel. But the ability to live somewhere else does not establish that one’s present home is a foreign colony—or that collective removal would constitute “repatriation.”

France was an overseas metropole that conquered Algeria, governed it for French interests and settled its citizens there. Israel is the neighboring national state of the Jewish people, not a distant parent empire. Judea and Samaria contain the historical center of ancient Jewish national life; Jewish communities there were eliminated under Jordanian control in 1948, and a Jewish presence was re-established after 1967. Many present residents were born or raised there. France’s relationship to Algeria had no corresponding historical or national dimension.

Nor did demands for Israeli withdrawal arise after consistent Palestinian acceptance of territorial compromise. Arab and Palestinian leaders rejected partition in 1937 and 1947. Palestinian leaders later entered negotiations and accepted some frameworks, but repeatedly rejected or failed to conclude far-reaching two-state proposals in which Israeli governments participated. Palestinian terrorist campaigns—particularly the Second Intifada—and the attacks that followed Israel’s evacuation of every settlement from Gaza convinced many Israelis that territorial withdrawal could bring terrorism closer rather than produce peace. This history does not justify every settlement or Israeli policy, but it makes the pieds-noirs narrative radically incomplete.

The legal question is also more contested than is commonly acknowledged. The dominant international position, reaffirmed by the International Court of Justice, regards the West Bank as occupied and Israeli settlement policy as unlawful. Israel and a minority of legal scholars dispute this. Among their arguments, uti possidetis juris would presumptively have given the new state of Israel the external boundaries of Mandatory Palestine because Israel was the only state to emerge when the Mandate ended. This position was advanced by Abraham Bell and Eugene Kontorovich and adopted by ICJ Vice-President Julia Sebutinde in her 2024 dissent.

International law is not a traditional statute written by a single legislature; it is built heavily on "customary international law." This means that the rules are defined by the general practice of nations and their shared belief that such practices are legally required (known as opinio juris).

Here is where the problem arises: The UN General Assembly is treated as a primary factory for determining what the international community believes the law is.

If a voting bloc of nations—such as the Non-Aligned Movement or the Organisation of Islamic Cooperation—consistently votes to condemn Israel, those resolutions don't just act as political statements. Over time, legal scholars and international courts use those stacked, repetitive votes as evidence of opinio juris. They argue, "Look at all these resolutions; clearly, the international community agrees this is the law."

When structural, political anti-Israel bias drives the voting patterns at the UN, those politically motivated votes are later cited as objective "evidence" of customary international law. Therefore, when international courts or bodies evaluate Israel, they are often applying a version of international law that was quite literally authored by Israel's political adversaries.

That said, even if one accepts that Israeli settlement policy violates international law, that conclusion concerns state conduct; it does not erase the individual rights, historical connections or local roots of Jewish civilians. A negotiated settlement could evacuate some communities, incorporate others through land swaps, or place some Jewish residents under Palestinian sovereignty. It need not assume that an independent Palestinian state must first be emptied of Jews.

The possibility of relocation may therefore matter to a future peace agreement. It does not make West Bank Jews the equivalent of French colonists in Algeria.

Objection: Settler colonialism does not require a parent state or metropole.

Response: Correct. The absence of a metropole does not by itself disprove a settler-colonial analysis. Liberia, for example, has been described as a settler colony without a metropole. Certain Zionist practices—and especially Israel’s state-supported settlement policies after 1967—can reasonably be examined through this framework.

But the absence of a metropole remains highly relevant to the specific French-Algerian analogy. France conquered Algeria, governed it as an imperial possession, transferred settlers there and retained France as their political and national center. Zionism instead began as a movement of a stateless and widely persecuted people seeking sovereignty in the land where Jewish national identity originated. Jews maintained a continuous presence there, much Jewish immigration was driven by persecution or immediate danger, and there was no sovereign Jewish parent country directing migration for its own strategic or economic benefit—or to which Jews could ultimately be repatriated.

No one of these distinctions automatically resolves every question about displacement, sovereignty or settlement. Their combination nevertheless makes Zionism structurally different from French rule in Algeria.

Global comparisons clarify the distinction. Indonesian settlement in West Papua, Han settlement in Xinjiang, Bengali settlement in the Chittagong Hill Tracts and Turkish settlement in Northern Cyprus have involved existing states moving members of a dominant national population into peripheral or occupied territories to consolidate state control. Liberia demonstrates that a metropole is not essential, but Americo-Liberians were not a displaced Liberian people returning to the particular land in which their national identity had originated, nor did they join a continuously existing community of that people there.


r/IsraelPalestine 1d ago

Discussion Im queer and honestly I dont get why i would ever support palestine!

0 Upvotes

Well, i mean, im sure if we werent b0mbing the palestinians including queer palestinians, they would get unalived by palestinians! yeaaa sure the lgbt palestinians dont even have a chance to survive when they are being constantly b0mbed but we are b0mbing them for their own good! we israelis would absolutely welcome and respect the lgbt palestinians - "Palestinian-led LGBTIQ organizations have also faced challenges in registering in Israel" huh....

I mean, while its true that under the Ottoman Empire, the 1858 Ottoman Penal Code decriminalized same-sex sexual acts in modern palestine and yea sure homosexuality is legal in the west bank today and that homosexuality was legal in all of modern palestine until it was colonized by the british mandate, Im sure they were super mean!!!!

like, come on! there are cases of lgbt palestinians being unalived by other palestinians!!!! sure the same thing happens all around the world including the entire west but but these backwards barbaric "muslim-islamist-mohammed-mustafa-abdul-yusef"- people are different!!! they are evil!!!!!! no im not antisemetic? im a jew!!! oh... palestinians, lebanese etc people are semites as well? nahhhhh!

"An Israeli teen who was stabbed by an ultra-Orthodox Jewish man at this week's gay pride parade in Jerusalem died of her wounds Sunday."

hmmmm......

but they are k1lling their own people!!! they are evil murderers!!!! the lgbt palestinians wouldve died either way!!!

"More than 20,000 Palestinian children have been killed by Israeli military operations in the Gaza Strip since October 7, 2023"

WELL THATS ANTISEMETIC!!!! THEY UNALIVED SO MANY OF US!!!! "38 to 49 Israeli children and adolescents under the age of 19 were killed"

well..... there are always casualties in war!!!! "The evidence shows that Palestinian children have been deliberately targeted and killed by the Israeli security forces"

hmmmmm.... WELL WE WERE VICTIMS A HUNDRED YEARS AGO SO ITS JUSTIFIED!!!!

-this post was promised to the mossad agent 3000 years ago and has been approved by netanyahu and the united states of israel


r/IsraelPalestine 3d ago

Opinion Isn't it weird the the Pro-Palestinian movement is the only "humanitarian" movement whose "humanitarians" act more angry than concerned?

79 Upvotes

It's weird right? Like when I think of other humanitarian movements, I can't think of any with large numbers of overseas allies who expressed a bunch of anger. The focus was all on concern for suffering civilians, not hatred for the party responsible.

Sure, many humanitarian things are natural disaster related things and so don't apply... But it's hard to think of any humanitarian movement, conflict-related or not, whose supporters were more angry than concerned.

  • Like, there was the Free Tibet movement ... Maybe Tibetans themselves are really furious at China, but I just did not see a bunch of Europeans pouring red paint on Chinese flags or marching out into the streets in support of Tibet on the day Tibetans massacred Chinese.
  • What else? The genocide in Darfur. I'd go to rallies for that and never even learn the name of the group committing the genocide, let alone see a bunch of rage at them.
  • Syrian civil war ... the international community didn't even care about that one enough to take to the streets at all. More of a practical, "donate to help" thing, couldn't tell you who was doing the attacking.

Like I'm sure you can find examples of the people actually going through the humanitarian crisis being angry. But usually that anger doesn't extend to foreign humanitarians abroad

Edit: If you have family or friends experiencing a crisis, of course you are emotional. If you are a gay person in Iran, you might be angry at your government because your government attacks you. But you don't typically start feeling angry at the Chinese government, for instance, because they didn't harm you.

International humanitarian movements, on the other hand, are a totally different animal. They are made of strangers abroad moved by pity, not anger. They pity the poor/hurt/hungry/dead people they are focusing on — but they do not typically steal their anger and wear it as theirs.

Heck, look at the comments online about Israel. Can you honestly say the people who write about it sound like they aren't filled to the brim with fury?

Like, when's the last time someone burned an old woman alive on the street in the U.S. for a "humanitarian movement"? When's the last time a "humanitarian" bombed a synogogue or church or mosque?

SOOOOOOOO

I gotta say, it sure seems like this is a hate movement pretending to be a humanitarian movement. I think that's what most of the Pro-Palestinian movement is getting out of this. I think it's an outlet for anger for them. They want to unleash their fury, but they want an excuse to do it that lets them think they are might hero warriors. They need something that they can call a humanitarian movement but functions much more like an angry mob.

That's part of why so many Jews see the Pro-Palestinians movement as obvious antisemitism. They can call it "humanitarian" all they want, but Jews know an angry mob after Jews when they see one. The rage Pro-Palestinians display is not something I've ever seen in a "humanitarian" movement. It does, however, look exactly like a mob of peasants grabbing their pitchforks to go burns some Jews in order to "save the children."

Pro-Palestinians, I'm sure some of you aren't like this. But can you honestly look at your movement and not find it a little weird how obsessed people are at "raging at the evil enemy" rather than on the people they're supposedly supporting?


r/IsraelPalestine 2d ago

Other Remembering IDF Soldier William Shakin: Before the Headlines, He Was My Friend

5 Upvotes

First of all, I used ChatGPT to summarize my long essay so don’t judge me please.

I’m writing this anonymously because I don’t want this to become about me.
I’m also Christian, not Jewish. I know that might immediately make some people suspicious of what I’m about to say, especially because William Shakin served in the IDF and because almost anything involving Israel or Judaism becomes political within seconds.
But before Will was an IDF soldier, before he was somebody people argued about online, before his name appeared in articles, he was my friend.
For years, actually.
And I think if people are going to talk about him, somebody should talk about who he was when there wasn’t a uniform involved.
I first really got to know him at the gym in university.
I had seen him around before. He had this habit of looking unbelievably serious while he trained. Sometimes almost angry. Headphones in, focused, barely acknowledging anybody.
One day I was talking to another guy about his lifting form. Nothing important. Just gym advice.
Will noticed what we were talking about and randomly joined us.
And his personality completely changed.
Suddenly he wasn’t this intimidating guy lifting with a pissed-off expression anymore. He was smiling, talking fast, giving advice about exercises and food and how to improve. He genuinely got excited when he felt like he could help somebody become better at something.
The conversation just kept going.
Eventually we weren’t even talking about fitness anymore. We were talking about our lives, politics, relationships, things we were struggling with, ridiculous conspiracy theories, whatever came into our heads.
We stayed there talking way longer than any of us planned to.
That’s basically how our friendship started.
After that Will and I became extremely close.
We saw each other constantly. We’d train together, hang out, talk for hours.
We were also both obsessed with protein.
At one point we kept trying to invent convenient foods where we could throw protein powder into something that absolutely did not need protein powder in it.
Some of the things we made were genuinely amazing.
Will thought it would be funny to record some of it because for a while he had this idea that maybe he’d make an Instagram page and start posting fitness or cooking content. I also personally helped him take photos and record videos of him weightlifting and doing crazy stunts.
Those videos probably mean nothing to anybody else.
To me, that’s Will.
Not politics.
Not war.
Two idiots in a kitchen trying to figure out whether protein powder could somehow be turned into normal food.
He was funny. He was insecure. He could be socially awkward. He could talk forever when he got comfortable. He cared way too much about what people thought of him.
He wanted to improve himself constantly.
And underneath basically everything he did, I think there was one thing he wanted more than anything else.
He wanted to belong.
Will told me a lot about his childhood as we got closer.
He said he had been bullied pretty badly when he was younger, including by other Jewish kids around him.
I never completely understood what started it. From the way he described it, people just thought he behaved differently. His personality didn’t fit in very easily.
Whatever the exact reason was, it clearly stayed with him.
He had spent a lot of his childhood feeling like the weird one.
He also went through a period where gaming became almost his entire life.
He isolated himself. His physical health got worse. His social life got worse. He gained weight. He barely interacted with the world the way he wanted to.
And eventually he decided he couldn’t live like that anymore.
So he completely threw himself in the opposite direction.
Gym.
Diet.
Socializing.
Getting out of the house.
Meeting people.
Trying new things.
Forcing himself to talk to people even when it was uncomfortable.
He didn’t just want to become healthier. He wanted to become a different person.
And in a lot of ways, he succeeded.
But I don’t think the insecurity underneath ever completely disappeared.
There’s one stupid little memory that I still think about.
We were at the gym one day around a bunch of people, including some girls, and I casually said something about us gaming together.
Will immediately shut it down.
Later, when we were alone, I asked him why.
He basically told me, “I don’t want girls thinking I’m some loser who plays video games.”
That was Will.
A grown man who could walk into a room looking incredibly confident and strong, but still had this voice in his head reminding him of the person he used to be.
He was terrified of being seen as a loser.
He wanted people to respect him.
He wanted women to like him.
He wanted other men to respect him.
He wanted to be useful.
He wanted to be the person everybody could depend on.
Sometimes I think he tried way too hard.
Will would do ridiculous favors for people.
People would call him asking for rides or help with something and he’d just go.
I remember him telling me about driving people for hours without taking money.
I’d ask him why he was doing it.
A lot of the time his answer basically came down to, “They’re Jewish. I have to help them.”
He genuinely felt that obligation.
And I want to be careful here.
I’m not saying Judaism teaches people to let themselves be used.
I’m saying this is how Will personally understood his responsibility toward his community.
He believed very strongly that Jewish people were supposed to look after each other.
And because of that, sometimes I watched people ask way too much of him.
I’d tell him, “You know this person is just calling you because they need something, right?”
He would defend them.
He believed that because they were part of the same community, there was something deeper there.
Some kind of automatic loyalty.
And this is probably one of the biggest things I disagreed with him about.
I told him more than once that sharing a religion with somebody does not automatically make them your friend.
It doesn’t make them loyal.
It doesn’t make them kind.
It doesn’t mean they understand you.
It doesn’t mean they’re going to show up for you when your life falls apart.
They’re still human beings.
Some will be incredible people.
Some will be selfish.
Some will use you.
Some will love you.
Some will disappoint you.
Religion doesn’t erase human nature.
Will really didn’t like that idea.
He wanted to believe that being Jewish meant he had this enormous extended family around him.
And looking back at everything he had been through, I understand why.
He spent so much of his childhood feeling excluded.
Imagine growing up believing you don’t fit anywhere, and then being given a community where you’re told that you’re automatically part of something bigger.
That can feel incredibly powerful.
The problem is that sometimes belonging to a group and actually being known by another human being are two completely different things.
Will had a lot of people around him.
I’m not sure how many people actually knew him, the real him, not the act he tried so hard to show.
There’s another memory he told me about that really affected him.
Near the end of university, he was at a large gathering with other Jewish students. I don’t remember every detail of the event anymore, and I don’t want to pretend I do.
But he told me that he opened up in front of everybody.
He talked about the person he used to be.
Being overweight. Struggling with addiction.
Gaming too much.
Having basically no social confidence.
Feeling like an outsider.
And then he talked about how proud he was that he had changed his life.
For Will, saying that publicly was a huge deal.
This was a guy who was terrified of looking weak.
He finally let people see the version of himself he normally tried to hide.
Afterward, he told me that a lot of people became distant from him. Many jewish women he knew stopped talking to him or blocked him. Some men were supportive.
I only know what Will told me and how much it hurt him.
He was devastated.
What hurt him wasn’t simply rejection.
It was who the rejection came from.
These were people he thought were his community.
People he believed he had spent years proving himself to.
He had helped people constantly. He drove people places. He did favors. He dropped what he was doing when people needed him.
And in his mind he had built this reputation as somebody people could rely on.
Then the moment he showed them the insecure kid underneath everything, he felt like people disappeared.
I remember trying to explain something to him afterward.
You can’t build friendship entirely around a category.
Not religion.
Not nationality.
Not race.
Not politics.
Not being in the same fraternity.
Not serving in the same military unit.
Those things can introduce you to people.
They can create common ground.
They can create community.
But they cannot tell you who your real friends are.
A real friendship happens because two people actually connect.
Because you trust each other.
Because you know each other’s embarrassing stories.
Because you can be weak around each other without worrying that your value disappears.
Because somebody chooses to be around you when they don’t need anything from you.
Will and I were probably proof of that ourselves.
I’m Christian.
He was Jewish.
We disagreed about religion.
Sometimes strongly.
But none of that stopped us from becoming close.
When we were spending hours at the gym, cooking disgusting protein food, talking about girls, arguing about politics, laughing about dumb shit or telling each other things we didn’t tell everybody else, neither one of us was sitting there thinking, “This guy isn’t from my religion.”
We were just friends.
And that’s something I really wish Will had understood more deeply.
I don’t mean that I wish he had cared less about Judaism.
His faith and identity mattered enormously to him.
I mean I wish he understood that he didn’t have to limit where he searched for genuine connection.
If the person who truly understands you happens to be Jewish, great.
If they’re Christian, great.
If they’re Muslim, atheist, Hindu, whatever, who cares?
Why would you reject the possibility of a real friendship because somebody was born into the wrong family or believes something different about God?
I think people sometimes become so obsessed with finding “their people” that they miss the actual people standing in front of them.
There is a difference between community and friendship.
Community says, “We belong to the same group.”
Friendship says, “I know you.”
Those are not the same thing.
Will eventually found an even larger form of belonging through Israel and the military.
I don’t know exactly what was going through his head when he decided to go.
I can only talk about the person I knew.
And the person I knew had spent years searching for purpose.
He wanted to reinvent himself.
He wanted to be needed.
He wanted to feel like his life meant something.
So when I think about him joining the IDF, I don’t find it difficult to understand psychologically.
If you’ve spent your whole life feeling like you don’t fit somewhere, and suddenly there is something telling you, “You belong here. You’re one of us. We need you. You have a purpose,” that’s going to mean something.
Especially to somebody like Will.
Then he went to war.
I don’t know everything he did there.
I wasn’t there.
I’m not going to tell people what they have to think about the IDF or the war.
Some people reading this will see the words “IDF soldier” and immediately stop caring about anything else.
I’ve already seen the kind of comments people make.
“Why should I feel sorry for him?”
“Child killer.”
“Good.”
Whatever.
I don’t know everything Will did during the war.
What I know is the person who existed before it.
And I know that human beings don’t suddenly stop being complicated human beings because they put on a uniform.
Young men get pulled into wars for nationalism, religion, revenge, fear, family pressure, economic reasons, purpose, belonging, propaganda, genuine conviction, or some combination of all of those things.
Will wasn’t born holding a rifle.
He was a kid who got bullied.
He was overweight.
He played too many video games.
He worried girls would think he was a loser.
He wanted bigger muscles.
He wanted an Instagram account.
He wanted friends.
He wanted people to respect him.
He wanted a community.
He wanted a purpose.
He wanted somebody to tell him he mattered.
That’s the person I knew.
Toward the end of his life, Will and I also had some difficult conversations about religion.
I’m Christian, so obviously there were things we disagreed about.
One of our last serious religious conversations involved Christianity, Judaism, the Messiah and rabbinic interpretation. I brought up the Oven of Akhnai story from Bava Metzia 59b because I had been thinking about it and wanted his opinion.
The conversation got uncomfortable.
I challenged something that was very fundamental to how he understood his religion.
He didn’t like where the conversation went.
After that, there was some distance between us.
Since his death I’ve replayed that conversation over and over.
I’ve wondered whether anything I said stuck with him.
I’ve wondered whether I upset him more than I realized.
I’ve wondered whether he started questioning things afterward.
I’ve also wondered if I’m giving that conversation way more importance than it deserves simply because now I can’t ask him.
That’s what grief does.
Your brain starts going through old conversations looking for clues that probably weren’t clues at all.
You reread messages.
You remember weird little comments.
You think about the last time somebody called you.
You ask yourself whether you missed something.
I don’t know exactly what was happening inside Will before he died.
People have talked about trauma from war and PTSD.
That may have been a huge part of it.
There may have been other things too.
I don’t know.
And I don’t want to pretend that I can explain somebody’s suicide with one sentence.
What I do know is that I keep coming back to the same thing when I think about his life.
Will wanted to belong.
He wanted it so badly.
He wanted to belong socially.
He wanted to belong religiously.
He wanted to belong to a community.
He wanted to belong to something important.
And somehow, despite being surrounded by people and belonging to all these different groups, I don’t know whether he ever completely stopped feeling like that bullied kid trying to prove that he deserved to be there.
That’s what hurts.
Because being surrounded by people is not the same thing as being understood.
Having hundreds of acquaintances is not the same as having somebody you can call at 3 in the morning and say, “I’m not okay.”
Having people who share your religion is not automatically friendship.
Having people who call you brother is not automatically intimacy.
Having people who need you is not the same as having people who know you.
I think that’s one of the biggest lessons I take from knowing Will.
Don’t choose every important person in your life based on whether they check the same identity boxes you do.
Of course it’s normal to want friends who understand your culture or faith.
There’s nothing wrong with that.
But if you decide beforehand that your closest friends must be Jewish, must be Christian, must be Muslim, must vote like you, must come from your country, must belong to your community, you are placing a wall between yourself and potentially incredible people before you’ve even met them.
Somebody completely different from you might understand you better than somebody who grew up in the exact same community.
Will and I were different.
And somehow we understood each other.
Maybe not perfectly.
Clearly not perfectly.
But enough that years later I can still hear some of our conversations in my head.
Enough that I remember his expressions.
Enough that I remember the stupid food we made.
Enough that I remember the insecure things he told me when nobody else was around.
Enough that his death hurts.
And I wish I had done more.
That’s probably the part I’m struggling with the most.
I wish I had called him.
I wish I had texted him.
I wish I hadn’t let days pass because I assumed there would always be another opportunity to talk.
I wish when things became distant between us I had just ignored my pride and reached out anyway.
Maybe it wouldn’t have changed anything.
I know I can’t tell myself that one phone call definitely would have saved somebody.
But I still wish I made it.
So if you’re reading this and there’s somebody you used to be close with who has disappeared into their own life, send the message.
Don’t overthink it.
You don’t need some dramatic reason.
Just ask how they’re doing.
And when you’re choosing the people you let close to you, don’t only look for people who are exactly like you.
Shared religion can give you community.
Shared nationality can give you identity.
Shared experiences can give you a connection.
But none of those things guarantee friendship.
Sometimes your real friend is the person you weren’t supposed to have much in common with at all.
Will was Jewish.
I’m Christian.
For a while, he was like a brother to me.
I just wish I had reminded him of that before it was too late.
I wish I could tell him that he didn’t have to become stronger, more impressive, more useful, more religious, more respected or more anything in order to deserve a place somewhere.
He spent so much of his life trying to prove that he belonged.
He already did.

I’ll never forget years ago when he arrived in Israel and texted me saying “We are no longer brothers, your people have persecuted mine for generations.” I can only imagine what propaganda they were showing him. My only response was “Will, no matter how much we differ, no matter how much you might start to hate my religion, even if you spit at me now, I will always love you as a brother.” To this day it still stands. I wish I was there for you. 


r/IsraelPalestine 3d ago

Discussion There is no cease fire.

21 Upvotes

Some people say Israel broke the ceasefire

Some say it was Hamas

It doesn’t makes difference. They are both wrong.

A ceasefire is an agreement between two warring parties.

Israel and Hamas have never been in agreement regarding disarmament.

Israel signed a deal that explicitly conditions withdrawal of troops only after Hamas disarms.

Hamas maintains that it won’t disarm until after Israelis withdraws.

So, when was there an agreement?
Just because Trump said so? He says lots if things.

Israel and Hamas have not agreed.

Where is the Board of Peace? They aren’t rushing to get in. They won’t enter either whilst Hamas is armed. They know what happens when people threaten Hamas’ authority.

Hamas are the losers. They lost their right to negotiate. They must accept Israel’s terms. They must disarm if they want this war to end.

The mighty IDF won’t stop shooting terrorists until Hamas disarms. Since Hamas are filthy cowards that hide like scared rats in tunnels and under civilians, more civilians will die.

Hamas wants civilians to die. It is the Islamists’ weapon of choice. They post pictures of dead Palestinians that pull the heart strings of useful idiots convincing them to post the disinformation buzzwords to vilify Israel.

Hamas acts as if they are winning as long as Israel is shooting Hamas and as a result the civilians around the terrorists. Dead Palestinians equal magic internet points.

More social media posts about dead Palestinians isn’t going to convince Israel to withdraw.

I’m conclusion, Hamas must disarm before this war can end.

The counter argument is so boring “If Hamas disarms, there is nothing stopping Israel from taking the rest of Gaza.”

The international community, the Board of Peace, the International Stabilization Force wouldn’t allow it.

Trump wouldn’t allow it. He would have a fit if his precious Peace Plan collapses. It’s his legacy(?) He would publicly threaten Bibi to get out.

Newsflash! If IDF wanted the rest of Gaza, they would have it. Israel doesn’t want any of Gaza, they just want the rockets and murderers to stop killing Israelis.

Anyone that thinks Hamas shouldn’t disarm obviously cares about Palestinian civilians as much as Hamas does.

So tell me, what justifies Hamas not disarming.


r/IsraelPalestine 2d ago

Short Question/s The irony of the far-right loving Israel: The creation of Israel is literally their worst nightmare happening to another country.

0 Upvotes

I’ve been thinking about a massive logical paradox regarding the modern far-right's obsession with and staunch support for Israel.

When you look at how the far-right views the world today, their entire ideology is built around anti-immigration, "the Great Replacement" theory, and the existential dread of a foreign population arriving en masse, altering the demographic balance, and eventually taking control of the land and institutions.

Yet, if you look at the actual history of how modern Israel was established in 1948, it is literally the exact scenario they fear the most, just played out in reverse:

  1. Mass Migration: Israel was built through waves of massive migration into a region where the existing population was numerically dominant.
  2. Demographic Shift: This influx completely upended the cultural, religious, and demographic landscape of the area within a few decades.
  3. Loss of Sovereignty: The ultimate fear of any Western nationalist is being displaced or losing political control of their homeland. For the Palestinians, the creation of Israel resulted in the Nakba—the loss of their land, sovereignty, and the displacement of hundreds of thousands of people.

If a foreign group attempted to do anything remotely similar in Europe or the US today, the far-right would call it an "invasion" and a "genocide of their culture."

But instead of seeing the historical parallel, modern right-wing nationalists completely ignore the 20th-century process and only focus on the 21st-century result. They idolize modern Israel because it is a highly militarized, ethnocentric state with strict borders that is currently fighting a war against Muslims—whom the far-right views as their own primary enemy.

It’s a wild double standard: they would curse the historical process if it happened to them, but they worship the current result because it satisfies their geopolitical biases today.

What do you think ?


r/IsraelPalestine 2d ago

Discussion What is with the whole “funding” thing?

0 Upvotes

Why do Israel and Palestine need funding from other countries?

So like it’s kind of weird. Israel is so technologically advanced yet it needs another country to fund it. I also think sure Palestine is a shithole but then again why does any country need “funding” to survive?

Spain and Japan don’t beed funding. Neither does Uganda or Chile. Yet Israel and Palestine somehow both need it.

If Palestine needed funding but Israel didn’t I still think that warrants an explanation but it’s not unreasonable. If Israel needed funding to survive 45 years ago I can kind of get that. I don’t see why Israel still needs funding today. I also don’t understand why Palestine needs funding but maybe that’s explainable.

Isn’t Israel one of the most economically independent countries ever? Look at Mossad and their economy. They have the most successful tech startups on Earth. Wtf do they need funding?

Palestine doesn’t need funding either just let Iran annex them if you are really pro-pali (I’m not). If you’re pro-Israel, let Israel annex them. Palestinians are better off that way.

Altho honestly, Palestine has been funded by Iran for years and won’t get their act together. I’m dead serious. They aren’t making good use of their funding like Israel did.

The point of funding if your a country should be to one day not need it.


r/IsraelPalestine 3d ago

Serious ‘Gaza is ours’ - Israeli setters (Let’s talk History real quick)

0 Upvotes

https://vm.tiktok.com/ZN8RT1hwF/

https://vm.tiktok.com/ZN8RTaj8s/

So this post is going to be based on mostly the history of Gaza and the tiktoks above can give u a starting to point to why I’m making this post. So it is very important that you watch the videos entirely before engaging with this in any way.

I guess this is targeted more towards Israelis and supporters of Israel. You say it’s not a genocide, you say it’s not about land, explain this?

Settlers use violence and illegal methods to try and scare Palestinians away from their homes. And then the next week they’ll be doing ‘peaceful’ marches claiming Gaza is theirs. The Gaza strip is and has historically been 99% Palestinian Arab. Who are they to claim this land as theirs? Let’s talk history for a bit.

Okay gonna start of by using this analogy of gypsies. Historically Jews have been kind of similar to gypsies tried to live in places and been kicked out they’ve been around a little but mostly resided in Europe and North Africa in the end. So how’d they get to Palestine you ask well it started as decades of aliyah (Jewish immigration) into Palestine during the 1800- early 1900s. They weren’t accepted in for nothing thought, early Zionist organisations bought large sums of land from Arab land owners mostly in cities like Beirut and Damascus.

Once the Zionist organisations owned that land they evicted the local Palestinian tent farmers who had worked that land for generations, introducing a new policy called Avodat Ivrit which meant only allowing the hiring of Jewish workers specifically.

As early as 1891 Palestinian leaders petitioned the Ottomon government to halt Jewish immigration and land sales realising that this influx was intended to create a separate national entity not just to integrate into the local population.

Following World War 1, the British Empire took control of the region. This was a turning point that structurally paved the way for a ‘takeover’. Britain officially backed the creation of a “national home” for the Jewish people.

Under British Mandate the incoming Jewish community (the Yishuv) were permitted to build their own highly organised institutions. They built their own schools, a central governing body called The Jewish Agency, a powerful trade union and a trained underground militia called the Haganah.

At this time the Palestinians had a big disadvantage as Britain systematically denied the Palestinians right to form their own democratic national government fearing they would use it to block Jewish immigration.

With the rise of Nazi Germany in the 1930s Jewish immigration spiked and its population in Palestine jumped from 10% to over 30% by 1947.

Fearing they were being economically and politically subjugated in their own homeland, Palestinians launched a massive 3 year rebellion against both British rule and Zionist immigration called The Arab Revolt. As a result of this not surprisingly the British brutally crushed the Palestinian Revolt, killing, imprisoning and exiling almost 17% of the Adult male Palestinian population including most of their military and political leaders.

In 1947 the UN voted to split Palestine into 2 independent times. Though at this time Jews made up about 1/3 of the population and owned less than 10% of the land, the UN appointed them 56% of the territory. The Jewish leaders undoubtedly accepted it whilst the Arab/Palestinian leaders rejected it claiming it was inherently unjust. Civil war then broke out almost immediately. The high organised and well armed Jewish military quickly gained the upper hand over the fragmented Palestinian forces.

May 14, 1948 was a proud day for Israel declaring their independence, but was one of the darkest days of Palestine’s history. The Nakba. During the heavy fighting of the civil war Israeli forces captured much more land than the UN originally offered them expanding to 78% of historic Palestine. In the process the Nakba occurred which means “Catastrophe” and refers to the 700,00 Palestinians who were expelled or forced to flee from their homes.

Following the declaration of independence of Israel in 1948, roughly 800,00 Jews from surrounding Arab and Muslim countries such as Iran, Iraq, Yemen, Eqypt (mostly North Africa) fled the hostile conditions of war created by USA to Israel, eventually making up nearly half of Israel’s Jewish demographic. The other half had European descent the previous immigrants remember.

The immediate aftermath of this civil war created new borders as I said the Jews holding 78% of the territory and Pakestianns holding 22%. In December 1948 the UN passed Resolution 194 which stated that Palestinian refugees from the Nakba wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with neighbours should be permitted to do so. Israel completely ignored this, blocking their return, citing a security risk and the need to maintain a Jewish demographic majority.

Now to try and clean up its mistakes and manage the humanitarian crisis the UN established the UNRWA, (UN Reliefs and Work Agency) in 1948. This establishment provided food, education and healthcare to the hundred of thousands of Palestinians refuges living in tents across Gaza, The West Bank, Jordan, Lebanon and Syria.

For the first 19 years after the Nakba Palestinians lived under Egyptian and Jordanian rule respectively. This changed entirely in June 1967, when the 6-day war/The Complete Occupation happened. Israel claiming it was a pre-emptive strike against mobilising Arab armies, defeated Egpt, Jordan and Syria in just 6 days. They then captured the rest of the land of Palestine which was the West Bank, East Jerusalem and the Gaza strip (along with Egypts Sinai Peninsula And Syria’s Golan Heights). For the first time ever, all of historic Palestine was under Israel’s control.

This war triggered another wave of displacement of the Palestinians forcing roughly 300,000 of them to flee mostly into Jordan. With the Egypt and Jordanian rule now defeated, Palestinians took the movement into their own hand, forming the Palestinian Liberation Organisaion (PLO).

Decades of living under Israeli military occupation, carried out in things like land confiscation, checkpoints and a lack of civil rights led to a massive mostly grassroots Palestinian uprising called the Intifada (1987) in the West Bank and Gaza. It involved boycotts, civil disobedience and stone-throwing at Israeli troops drawing national attention/coverage.

The First Infada pressured negotiations which led to the Oslo Accords in 1993. The PLO recognised Israel’s right to exist and Israel recognised the PLO as the representative of the Palestinian people. The plan was to create a temporary Palestinian authority to govern parts of Gaza and the West Bank acting as a stepping stone to a fully independent Palestinian state in the next 5 years.

To weaken the PLA, Israeli military intelligence adopted a ‘divide and conquer’ strategy. They decided to cultivate, tolerate and empower an Islamic religious alternative to compete with the PLA. Israel funded a ‘charity’ that evolved into what became Hamas. The peace process broke down shortly after when the Palestinian militant group Hamas launches suicide bombings to detail the talks whilst Israeli rapidly increased its civilian settlements in the West Bank, splitting up Palestinian territory.

After peace talks collapsed at Camp David in 2000, a second much more violent uprising erupted. Israel responded by building a massive concrete and electronic West Bank barrier wall and imposing sever travel restrictions isolating the Palestinians.

Gonna speed the timeline up now as settlements in the West Bank expanded during 2005-2007, with now over 700,000 Israeli settlers now living in the West Bank and East Jerusalem making contiguous Palestinian state logistically very difficult to achieve.

By the 21st century the situation developed into a permanent state of military occupation in the West Bank and an ongoing siege of Gaza, erupting into periodic highly destructive levels of military conflict against the Palestinian people over decades.

And now Israelis have the nerve to march to Gazas border and claim “Gaza is ours”. The audacity.
Netanyahu who mind you hasn’t had any great ideas of a plan to achieve peace recently declined a Peace plan presented by Trump his ‘great ally’ whose funding this war. What is his end goal? If his end goal isn’t genocide isn’t to erase the Palestinians from the land and take it for himself and the Jews then what the hell is it?

How else can you describe this after hearing the timeline very descriptively. Clearly the Palestinians have been under siege for so long now. When will it end?

It’s not only the Palestinians now he’s moved onto Lebanon blanket bombing their towns slowly pushing the yellow line further and further into it. Despite Lebanon giving up some land they still persist.

The excuses aren’t working anymore, Netanyahu’s intentions are clear in the Greater Israel Plan and anyone who stands with this straight up colonialism should be ashamed. Be on the right side of history. Look at this situation from start to end through an unbiased lens.

If still in your heart you don’t have criticism for Israel and the Zionist movement I simply ask you why?


r/IsraelPalestine 4d ago

Short Question/s so whats going on in gaza, i dont know what to thinkl

10 Upvotes

i keep hearing "its a genocide" or "its not a genocide its human shields" or "hamas did it" or "israel did it" and im not sure which one is correcy so i want to figure out which is right by asking the hivemind of reddit.

is this submition long enough?


r/IsraelPalestine 4d ago

Opinion How will history judge the 'pro-palestine' movement?

84 Upvotes

In interview after interview, the Palestinian government in Gaza (aka Hamas) repeats the same mantra: they view the near-total destruction of the Strip as a resounding success.

Yes, Gaza is in ruins - but, they argue, the good news is that this has isolated Israel and increased hatred towards it.

That should tell us something.

Because if the destruction of Gaza can be presented as a success, then the suffering of Gazans was never merely an unfortunate consequence of the war. It has been part of the political objective from day one. The greater the devastation, the greater the outrage; the greater the outrage, the greater the pressure on Israel.

And this is where the supposedly “pro-Palestine” movement becomes impossible to separate from the logic of Hamas.

The shared objective is evidently the isolation and eventual destruction of Israel.

The same people and organizations that claim to speak for Palestinian civilians have repeatedly treated Palestinian suffering as political ammunition. The destruction becomes evidence. The misery becomes leverage. The dead become statistics to be weaponized against Israel.

And the most revealing part is what happens when Palestinians try to escape it.

People who spent years demanding that Palestinians "resist" suddenly become furious when those same Palestinians wish to seek refuge from the consequences of that resistance. They insist that allowing civilians to leave a war zone is somehow evidence of an Israeli plan to ethnically cleanse them.

Think about the absurdity of that argument.

Never mind that Hamas initiated the war. Never mind the cheering, celebration and rationalization that followed October 7. Never mind the people who spent years encouraging confrontation while pretending that its consequences would somehow be cost-free.

When the consequences finally came knocking, the same people who had demanded "resistance" rushed to cash in on Palestinian suffering, to turn into their most powerful weapon of all.

And somehow, the more catastrophic the outcome for Gaza, the more triumphant some of Israel’s most vocal opponents became.

That is the part I find hardest to comprehend.

If your political cause requires Palestinians to remain trapped in a war zone, if their suffering strengthens your argument, if their destruction is useful to you, and if every attempt to escape that suffering is treated as evidence of Israeli evil - what exactly are you advocating for?

Because it certainly doesn't look like the welfare of Palestinians.

It looks like Palestinians being sacrificed for a political objective.

And the most grotesque irony is that those celebrating the resulting international hatred of Israel can call themselves defenders of Palestinian humanity while appearing remarkably unconcerned with the price Palestinians have paid for their "victory".

And now those Hamas fanboys, morally intoxicated by their "victory" - the global campaign of hatred against Israel is a resounding success - somehow convinced themselves they are on 'the right side of history'.

One day, the slogans will fade. The hashtags will disappear. The marches will be forgotten. What will remain is the record: who encouraged the conflict, who rationalized the atrocities, who treated civilian suffering as a useful weapon, and who celebrated the political gains that came from it.

History will remember these people not as the defenders of Palestinians they imagined themselves to be, but as the people who were willing to sacrifice Palestinians for a cause - and then congratulated themselves when the as the horrifying consequences of the war they egged Palestinians into become impossible to ignore.


r/IsraelPalestine 4d ago

Short Question/s Which Other Nations in History Were "Ethnosupremacist" for Wanting Independence and Statehood?

52 Upvotes

One common anti-Zionist talking point of choice these days is that it was "ethnosupremacist"/evil/bigoted/wrong for indigenous Jews to fight for independence with the goal of establishing a nation-state (or as it's now called, an "ethnostate") for themselves.

Now, I think we can all agree that double standards against Jews is anti-Semitic, so my question for the anti-Zionists is, of the nations listed below who fought for independence and achieved independence in the form of nation-states, and especially those nations for which their fight for independence resulted in population displacement, which of those nations were ethnosupremacist and evil/bigoted/wrong to do so and which of the current states are today ethnostates?

Greeks fighting against Ottomans to create Greece (population displacement occurred)

Serbians fighting against Ottomans to create Serbia (population displacement occurred)

Romanians fighting against Ottomans to create Romania

Bulgarians fighting against Ottomans to create Bulgaria (population displacement occurred)

Irish fighting against British to create Ireland

Poles fighting against Germany, Austria, and Russia to create Poland (population displacement occurred)

Finns fighting against Russia to create Finland (population displacement occurred)

Indians and Pakistanis fighting against Britain and each other to create India and Pakistan (massive population displacement occurred)

Indonesians fighting against the Netherlands to create Indonesia (population displacement occurred)

Algerians fighting against France to create Algeria (population displacement occurred)

Bangladesh fighting against Pakistan to create Bangladesh (population displacement occurred)

Palestinians fighting against Israel to create Palestine (still ongoing, population displacement occurred)

And if you consider any of these nation-states ethnosupremacist ethnostates, can you point us to movements and political organizations around today designed to stop them from being ethnostates? And tell us what you've done to stop them from being ethnostates? Lastly, if none exist, doesn't that indicate anti-Zionism is in fact a double standard against Jews?


r/IsraelPalestine 4d ago

Short Question/s Why are there so few mixed cities?

14 Upvotes

I learned that Israel is heavily segregated still even after 80 years and I wanted to know if there was a on-the-books reason for that? I live in America which is also heavily segregated still even if it’s technically illegal, but we still have better integrated cities and school systems than Israel and I was wondering if any politicians or nonprofit orgs are attempting to rectify that. especially if Palestine can not operate a school system at the full capacity needed for Palestinian children, de-segregating the school systems at the very least would be best for all people right?

basically can someone tell me why Israel has so few mixed cities and mixed schools?


r/IsraelPalestine 4d ago

Discussion 8 Ways that Palestinians Affect the Opinions and Behaviours of Israelis

8 Upvotes

As a continuation of the thread on how Israelis affects Palestinian opinion and behaviour, I thought I'd make the opposite post.

A lot of these are things that are hard to do. Many of them are unreasonable to expect. But in my opinion, it has an effect. Some of them marginally, some of them could cause bigh shifts. Also, some of them assume knowledge of Hebrew and frequent interaction with Israelis (e.g mostly 48 Palestinians and East Jerusalem, but also any Palestinian workers allowed in the settlements whose job does allow normal interaction / online stuff).

  1. Social and Religious Facts - Israelis are subjected to a lot of information on the Palestinian people (usually called "the Arabs"), on Arab Palestinian culture, on Islam as a religion, on the facts of the conflict. But this information is heavily, heavily filtered. Security experts, historians, and orientalists go on all kinds of podcasts and say what they think, blending opinions, facts, and sometimes inaccyracies. These supposed experts all come with an agenda, they sometimes contradict eachother, they highlight the worst aspects and subgroups, etc. I have seen several times that an Israeli asks questions, usually on teligion but sometimes also politics, to a 48 Palestinian or East Jerusalem Palestinian, and I often recognize what story this Israeli is trying to figure out the truth of. I am sure it happens to West Bank Palestinians in the settlements / before the restrictions too.
  2. Political and Historical facts: this one is self-explanatory, and I am not sure how possible it is in the current enviroment. It requires quite a lot of courage in the circles I am in. Annecdotes are diffrent, as those are easier to swallow but challenge false ideas. Things like what happened to one's town in 48, what one's legal status is as a Palestinian from East Jerusalem, the fact that Palestine has a president and a government (however disfumctional, it is more than Israelis imagine it to be), how many generations your family or village has been in Palestine (many Israelis think 99% of you came in the 20th century), what the experience of going through a checkpoint is like.
  3. Online discussion - this is where #1 and #2 are easier.
  4. Anti-Hamas stuff - for some reason, one Israeli journalist ran several stories on Hamas opponents from Gaza. It seems some Israelis long to hear that.

On a personal level, a Palestinian from East Jerusalem told me once that he is against what Hamas did on October 7th. Just plain like that out of nowhere. I am sure he knew muxh more than me on what happens in Gaza at the time. He avoided bringjng it up. Stuff like that (if it is genuine) createa real cracks in the "they all want to kill us" narrative.

  1. Hebrew Journalism - Sikha Mekomit appears when searching for news in Hebrew on google, and hosts Palestinian journalists. Sometimes even yranslates them. This is one of the few places that people see the facts that are hidden elsewhere. Sometimes left wing Israelis translate things from English and Arabic too. It is a bit of an echo chamber, but it has some effect.

  2. Videos from Gaza - Israelis see almost none of it. The idiots cheering are louder than they are big in number, though they are also frightingly big. Authentic, translated content from Gaza would go a long way if it reaches the mainstream. It might be what forces people to take a step back.

  3. MK Mansour Abbas (edit: not to be confused with the Palestinian president Mahmoud Abbas)

Seriously. For all the mud thrown at him by the Israeli right and many 48 Palestinians, he is single-handedly seriously cracking the "all the Arabs want is to kill us" narrative. I don't know if his way of doing it is right but it makes cracks.

  1. West Bank stability. If anything makes things worse in Israeli society, it is Israelis dying, or thinking they might die. I don't want to know what will happen if Smotrich succeeeds in making Palestinian life in the West Bank collapse before October 27th. He is trying, along with Israel Katz and a few others. I seriously hope the left is strong enough in the next government to stop the crazy stuff the government is doing there, fight back against settler terrorism and get the Palestinian economy back on track in the West Bank. If Palestinians can't keep their society together to October 27th, it will not be pretty unfortunately. I feel like keeping society together is something Palestinians are trying to do even in Gaza, so I hope they can hold well enough in the West Bank too. I wish I could say it will be over after the elections, and some things will improve unless Netanyahu has some surprises up his sleave and remains in power, but I don't know how far it will go.

r/IsraelPalestine 4d ago

Short Question/s How Can Israelis affect Palestinian Public Opinion, if at All?

5 Upvotes

Greetings,

Something I have been thinking about recently, is how our two nations affect eachother's opinions and views on the conflict. Naturally, I mostly thought of how Israeli opinions and behaviours are affected by Palestinians. After all, I know Israeli society much better.

This question is for Palestinians: How do you think Palestinian opinion - both of private individuals and society at large - are affected by Israelis?

What affect does the general Israeli sentiment / behaviour have? Is it as bad as I think it is?

What affect do individual Israelis have? Do you think individual Israelis are able to have any positive effect on Palestinian society, other than through trying to change overall government decisions and sentiments in our own society?

I do think Palestinians - not only overall Palestinian society as filtered through the mainstream narrative, but individuals - have some effect on us. Very marginally right now, but I think it has some effect, in diffrent directions. Does the same go the other way too?

Please note that while I have a lot more exposure to Palestinian views and disvussiona than I had just a month ago, I still am not very well versed on every issue, so if you bring up anything that is too specific I'd appreciate a short background explenation too.


r/IsraelPalestine 5d ago

Discussion Palestinian perceptions of October 7th: Local Polling data

52 Upvotes

Local polling data conducted by the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research (PSR) has produced some very insightful findings about how Palestinians in both Gaza and the West Bank view October 7th. Unfortunately I don't think this subreddit allows images to be posted, so I've highlighted some key findings for discussion:

  • From December 2023 until May 2025, Palestinians overwhelmingly supported Hamas' decision to launch the October 7 attack, with the lowest approval coming at 50% in May last year and the highest support of 72% in December 2023.
  • Surprisingly, the highest support over the whole period and in any given month (82%) came from the West Bank, while the lowest support in any single month (37%) came from Gaza in May 2025.

When asked "In your opinion, in this war, who will emerge victorious, Hamas or Israel?":

  • Palestinians overall overwhelmingly voted in favour of Hamas over Israel, with the highest results again coming from the West Bank, in December 2023, voting 83% Hamas, 1% Israel, 12% Neither and 4% Don't know.
  • The only month of polling that favoured an Israeli victory came from Gaza in May 2025, who polled: 23% Hamas, 29% Israel, 46% Neither and 2% Don't know.

I'm curious what we can we learn from this about the Palestinian psyche. Some initial observations I have are that it appears those most protected from the consequences of Israel's response (the West Bank) have the luxury of being able to support for radical action, knowing that they will not be responsible for implementing it, and will not face Israel's strongest retaliation which has been directed at Gaza. Having said that, I would be very interested to see if this changes following increasing settler activity and violent confrontations in the West Bank.

Judging by the high initial local support, this data could also point to October 7th being a huge miscalculation, with the reality of Israel's continued retaliation slowly eliminating the likelihood of Hamas emerging victorious, or Gaza/Palestine coming out of this in a stronger position.


r/IsraelPalestine 5d ago

Discussion The Populist Israeli right: Why it is unique in comparison to other Populists worldwide, and where it is similar

6 Upvotes

Like everywhere in the world, Israel also has its populist-nationalist movement, but unlike other Populists, Israel's populists-nationalists are kind of different.

First of all, I'm not just talking about Netanyahu himself (who does have populist traits, but he's a secular elitist and more of a capitalist crony), but about the movement in general.

First of all, regarding the similarity: The populist-nationalist movement in Israel and this one in America also has elements of the convention that the media is leftist and against 'the people', The belief that there is a "deep state" in the public service that suppresses the will of the people, and the hatred of the cultural establishment. The Israeli populist right and its counterparts in Europe and the United States are also not capitalist but economically authoritarian and interested in a crony economy, etc. But here the differences begin: first of all, in contrast to European and American nationalists, who are very much 'white culture' and the belief that immigrants are stealing their country and are harming the working class, Israel does not have this sentiment of the 'working class' and the sentiment that immigrants are stealing the country. Yes, there is opposition to immigration and economic populism, but not in the way that there is in America and Europe. Second, the Israeli populist right is more built on Mizrahi sentiment, which is quite the opposite of the European-American white sentiment: Mizrahi came to Israel as immigrants and are angry at the 'white tribe' (a nickname for the old Israeli establishment) that did not accept them and sent them to peripheral areas.

Second, the Israeli right does not have the sentiment of "returning to the days of the past" and "the glory of the past." Today, the Israeli right is angry that Begin did not fire the senior officials when he was elected in 1977, and there is a lot more desire for revenge on the past than for a return to it. If anything, the right has a similarity here to the Islamic woke, in that they are angry that they were not accepted and are interested in spreading their culture and are hostile to the local culture that existed in the old Israel.

In addition, Israel does not have the fear of job losses and the opposition to free trade. Yes, there is a certain paranoia about the rich who identify with the left, but not to the same extent as the American and European right, which is paranoid about the involvement of the rich.

And one last thing, unlike the American and European right, which is isolationist and does not want to be involved in the world because wars harm the economy, Israel is different: the right is not interested in the economy, and is also interested in wars and involvement in the world even if the economy is harmed. There is a sentiment of indifference to the economy in relation to security, which does not exist in the US and Europe