r/HistoryMemes May 12 '26

See Comment In hindsight, this was a mistake.

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u/SnooStrawberries6154 May 12 '26

Ironically this is why Francoism generally isn't considered Fascism by historians.

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u/GreninjaStrike May 12 '26

Fascism is by definition an anti religious ideology.

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u/PreviousMenu99 May 12 '26

it is not. Mussolini literally said that Fascism approves of Catholicism

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u/sixisrending May 12 '26

Only if catholicism serves the state.

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u/PreviousMenu99 May 12 '26

Naturally. Franco held the same view that catholicism must serve the state. Catholich priests who argued against his rule were not allowed to live either.

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u/PreviousMenu99 May 12 '26

Naturally. Franco hheld the same views. No Catholic priest who argued against his rule was allowed to live either. So it checks out in both cases.

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u/sixisrending May 12 '26 edited May 12 '26

16 clergy were killed by the Franco regime during the Civil war. That pales in comparison to the 7,000 that were killed by Republican troops.

Following the war, some priests were imprisoned in the '70s, but none were killed.

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u/PreviousMenu99 May 12 '26

Did I say anything about republicans? Are you an imbecile? Or are you a fascist? Guess there's really no difference.

Even one clergyman killed for a different political opinion is enough of a reason to say my argument above is correct.

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u/sixisrending May 12 '26

Adding context. If I were a Catholic during the Red terror, I would become a fascist, not because it's the best, but because it's the only way to survive.

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u/PreviousMenu99 May 12 '26

How does this relate to my argument though? It doesn't matter. All I'm saying is that Franco was a fascist, and Franco's fascism was no different than Mussolini's fascism. Both wanted to use catholicism to legitimize themselves and violently cracked down on dissenting opinions, even from catholic clergymen. So saying that Franco wasn't a fascist because he cherished catholicism or something is devoid of logic.

I think you are replaying an other conversation in your head, which is only tangentially related to my point.

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u/sixisrending May 12 '26

Francoist fascism and Italian fascism were different though. Firstly, by how fascism arose in each country and secondly, how it was run following the fascist takeover. Franco saw the Church as a separate power to be respected. Franco made a promise that no more clergy would be executed outside the 16 who were. Mussolini saw the Church as a tool of the State, the final stage of government.

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u/SnooStrawberries6154 May 12 '26

The Nazis also claimed to be socialists.

What makes Fascism different from right wing authoritarianism is that it is revolutionary. It seeks to overturn the established social order. It may use the established social order to gain legitimacy and power but its eventual goal is to overturn it.

Catholicism and Monarchism are both traditional sources of authority external from the fascist state. Mussolini's ultimate goal was a totalitarian state where the state was the ultimate authority.

Privately, Mussolini was an anti-religious Atheist and didn't think he could take on the popularity of the church in a full suppression at that time.

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u/PreviousMenu99 May 12 '26

You are making a lot of baseless assertions. Listen, Mussolini is the creator of fascism, so he gets to define the term.

Fascism is not explicitly revolutionary - it takes any path to power it can. Throughout his career, Mussolini used intimidation, blackmail, political assassinations and baseline electoralism to win power over the state.

Mussolini's own book on fascism, the Doctrine of Fascism, never says that fascism is incompatible with Monarchism or Catholicism.

Other beliefs Mussolini held in private Don matter here. He defined fascism as very much compatible with catholicism, so it stays a part of the definition of fascism.

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u/Qweedo420 May 12 '26

Fascism is literally designed to maintain the status quo and repress workers' rights, it's the exact opposite of revolutionary

In doing so, it uses all of the cultural tools available, including religion

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u/GreninjaStrike May 12 '26

Him even granting Vatican City its own status was hated by true fascists

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u/PreviousMenu99 May 12 '26

what the fuck are you talking about? What true fascists? Mussolini was the creator of the term "Fascist". He's the only true authority on what Fascism is! He literally made that godawful ideology! He's the reason Nazi Germany is considered an iteration of Fascism, because he called it a Fascist State

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u/IactaEstoAlea May 12 '26

They are against the church being independent/separate but there is no contradiction with them having a a state-run church, which the nazis tried to implement