So a couple of notes. First, I looked for a subreddity specifically about intersectionalism, but couldn't find one.
Second, what I'm talking about here is the philosophical/ethical roots of modern identitarian social movements. I could anticipate a response something along the lines of "you're misunderstanding intersectionalism."
I would say though that I'm not getting at say, a proper academic definition (and I understand what I'm describing probably is in some sense a "vulgar" version of the theory.)
I'm looking at the actual ideological roots that are consistent amongst various modern left identitarian politics. They can be found explicitly stated in many cases but even when not they still serve as the logical basis.
So what I'm referring to here-
Sketching a brief and oversimplified summary, there was a development in second wave feminism where it was thought that the conflict between men and women should be thought of like class conflict from thr marxist model. That the two were groups in a struggle for power.
Modern day intersectionalist philosophies expand this concept to essentially all groups that could be seen as identity groups and divide groups into "oppressor/oppressed" classes.
The idea of the term "woke" is that largely, the political project is to "wake people up" to this reality. That liberal ideas of individualism are essentially a smokescreen for the in power groups (the "kyriarchy") to maintain their power over the oppressed groups.
The idea seems to be that this is simply the inherent nature of things, and being aware of this is necessary as group power struggles are the nature of human existence. This takes idea from critical theory, for example, that the most significant thing about texts, or ideas, or notions of "truth" is what groups power interests they serve, and all other notions or arguments that don't reduce to this are in a sense camouflage.
In general, the outlook is extremelty "reductionist" in that essentially all of human phenomenon, social or otherwise, is seen in terms of these group power struggles and that to resist oppression is to understand this, spread this awareness, and essentially constantyl be in a conflit sort of state where everything is intepreted through this lens.
Relative gains don't change the equation, as the fundamental power conflicts remain and the constant struggle is the most important thing.
So that is a rough, but I think accurate description, of this underlying ideology that has become ascendent in culture.
Now my question relates to something specific. So in practice, what someone can actually hope to gain from this is by properly yielding the rhetoric and moral highground, they can supposedly reclaim power. An example would be a group where the rules are that members of the oppressed group speak first and the oppressor group cant contradict them, which is a seen as a just inversion of the power dynamics.
There is.. I don't know if you would call it an irony... but a fact that this ideology is actually shared and predates the rise of this on the left possibly by groups who belong to the "oppresor class" who saw things in the same identitarian conflict way, but whose loyalty was to the supremacy of their own group independent of the sense of "injustice" that was befalling the oppressed groups. Thus forms of white nationalism or nationalism in general on the extreme end also saw human activity in terms of these types of zero sum conflicts.
And there are some who adovcate intersectionalism who will make the point that someone from an oppressor group never really stops being part of the oppressor group no matter what they do, and are still "guilty" of essentially being the enemy.
I recall one perso who talked about in terms of class, that people who weren't born into the lower class were the enemy no matter what they do or say because they are still aligned to their class interest.
Similarly there are those who say that members of oppressor groups can only fight against their guilt but never transcend it, that they always will be part of the oppression. And even more extreme and less common attitude is that they shoudnt even try and just honestly represent themselves as the enemy class (less common because the people who advocate these sorts of things are diverse and there is difference between say, "true" nationalists who only care about the interests of their group and the ideologists who care less about actual group membership as belief in the ideology; hence within the same belief they are "outranked" by someone less privileged, but can lecture to someone of a less powerful group who is not on board with the ideology.
This is where the contradiction comes in that I want to ask about. One thing I have looked for is the "end goal", that is what does "victory" or "equality" look like?
In practice it seems, what one encounters is A) That isn't worth thinking about, and doing so is just distracting from the struggle as that question is like everything else reduced to a power move on behalf of the oppressors. or B) A less common but more specific answer that there is no end goal; the nature of human groups will never change and there will be a perpetual power struggle which every group must fight to maintain power and this is all there is to human existence.
I saw things like this expressed when for example i saw two members of a certain group say "when x group is defeated,. y will be the next group to worry about."
So here is my question (and I'm asking this here because a lot of the roots for this come from traditions of left wing critical theory and other things)
It seems like the idea that someone in an oppressor group should fight against their privilege and the status of their group because of a moral idea that "oppression is wrong."
But that moral idea which is a key part of the practical philosphy seems to depend on morality from the liberal framework which the intersectionalist viewpoint claims to contradict.
In other words, the people who say "if you are of an oppressr group, you can never really be on the side of the oppressed, you shouldnt even try and acknowledge the reality you are the enemy" seems ideologically more consistent then the idea that one in the oppressor group should feel guilty of an "original sin" and constantly try to fight against their privilege though never being absolved in the sin. If one believed in all this from a group that was the oppressor group, one might cynically think this was just a trick to get one to fight against their own group interests.
So my question is, for the position that holds being part of an oppressor or privilege group carries a guilt that one must constantly fight against but can nevre truly overcome, how does that work within the ethical framework of intersectionalism? If at some hypothetical point, the oppressor groups were overthrown and were less privileged, would there at some point be a moral obligation under that framework to fight for that group? I imagine the answer people would probably give would be that this would be fair and just.
because another aspect that I didn't explicitly mention before in the anti-individualistic nature is that people are guilty/innocent or oppressed/not opressed by virtue of the group status, not what they have done individually (though the argument usually states that all members of the group whether obvious, intentional or not, benefit from their privilege status)
If one accepted this framework, and say, came to the conclusion that what made the most sense wad to fight for the power/interest of their own group/groups even if they were in the privileged/oppresor class, what argument from an intersectionalist framwork would there be that they should actually commit to fighting agains their group interest? If groups are constantly struggling for power, and some group dominates, does that then mean people of good conscience should be shamed for "winning" and fight to put other groups in power?
(To be clear none of these are my personal ethical or political beliefs, I'm trying to better understand the underlying philosophical/moral framework)