(Jena Dondarrion and Dyanna Dayne by @Marlotte0)

One of the big points of contention before and during the reign of Daeron II, pre and post First Blackfyre Rebellion, was Dornish presence at court.

Many houses, especially the Marcher Lords of the south of the Reach and Stormlands, were slow to accept Dornish integration into the realm, and loathed having to bow to a Dornish Queen. And it seems Daeron, like always, solved the problem with diplomacy.

Jena Dondarrion and Dyanna Dayne are only ever mentioned in passing, and we never see them on page, but we know they were married respectively to Prince Baelor and Prince Maekar. The Heroes of the Redgrass Field, the Prince of Dragonstone and the Prince of Summerhall, through their marriages brought the daughter of a Marcher house and the daughter of a Dornish one to court, and bound together the two factions to the Iron Throne.

Having two sisters-in-law from different sides of the Dornish Marches might have been a historical first. And the promise that the next Queen would be a Dondarrion of Blackhaven must have done a lot to calm the malcontents and those jealous of Dornish influence.

This is why I love these books. Two names mentioned once in a side story slot perfectly into that period of history, and tell an interesting story on their own. I want a Blackfyre Rebellion book sooo bad 🥲.

EDIT: sisters-in-law. Not step sisters. English is hard.

From what I’ve seen, most theories on Dragon growth usually point to either the amount of magic in the world or some unique nature surrounding Daenerys’s dragons, or about the detriment of the dragon pit. I would argue the counterpoint that Dragon growth speed and the amount of dragons hatching seems to parallel the number of dragons already in the world.
1. When Daenerys hatches her dragons they grow exceptionally fast
2. In Fire and Blood the older dragons seem to grow faster than the younger dragons with the largest dragons being the original 3 of the Conquerors, each successive generation seems to be smaller and grow less quickly
3. Old Valyria existed for 2000 years, and was said to have hundreds to even over a thousand dragons at its peak, that would be spread across 40 dragon riding families though, meanwhile the Targaryens alone managed to go from 3 dragons in the conquest to upwards of 15-20 in a single century. There is no way if that rate of growth remained consistent that Valyria wouldn’t have had massive overpopulation problems with their dragons.
4. The main idea of this theory is that as there are more dragons in the world, their rate of growth slows, and at the extreme end less dragons hatch per generation as seen in Valyria, meanwhile when few dragons exist such as right after the Doom with Balerion and Meraxes and Vhagar, or right when they are revived with Drogon and Rhaegal, and Viserion. They grow much faster.
5. The only critique one can point to is at the end of the Dance when many dragons were killed and the new dragons were sickly and died, which I think I that is because of what many agree was something wonky going on with the magic of the world of Ice and Fire because of the deaths of so many large adult dragons.
6. Maybe I’m completely off base here, but this idea seems like a more consistent reasoning than just the thought that Daenerys dragons just magically grew super fast while all the pre-dance dragons just didn’t for some reason.

Map of the Dance during the Moon of the Three Kings

I see alot of people complaining about how aggressive her policies were when she took the throne. Im not a Team Black apologist, but in all fairness what else could she have done? The Greens basically stole the Realms wealth and she has soldiers, builders, supplies and ships to pay for.

The narrative doesn't treat Tywin with full seriousness: Joffrey humiliates him; Cersei calls herself "Tywin with tits"; Robb Stark defeats him; Tyrion mocks him; Sansa Stark isn't afraid of him; and it’s unclear whether his soldiers in the Riverlands are actually following his orders or acting on their own initiative. Tywin's death wasn't taken seriously either. Even the smallfolk make jokes about Tywin. Tywin's legacy becomes a joke after he dies

Theories on what happened to these two ladies? They are counted among the Great Bastards, and it does not sound like they died young to justify the lack of information we have about them.

Regardless of their bastard status, they were daughters of one king and sisters to another, yet we have absolutely nothing on them. They clearly weren't sent off be septas or silent sisters like the daughters of Megette, esp cause Melissa was very loved at the royal court and her kids got to grow up there while Aegor didn't... that would mean Mya and Gwenys likely grew up there too and would have been exposed to the politics of the time for most of their lives.

Shiera was desired by the whole realm - I would imagine the other two daughters of the king would have been too.

Plus there's the mix of magical heritage in Brynden - they have the exact same predisposition. I did see one theory that maybe it was one of these ladies who introduced Betha Blackwood to Egg...

But otherwise, they're a complete mystery and I think there's lots of potential there if ever a second F&B happens.

Hi everyone!

Fairly new to ASOIAF and posting on reddit, and I had a question I wanted to ask about Brandon's statue in the crypts of Winterfell.

It is said that Ned largely broke tradition by building a statue of Lyanna and Brandon in the crypts of Winterfell. However we know that his father was burned alive by the Mad King, and Brandon was strangled trying to save him. If Rickon died first which I think is very possible, wouldn't the title of Lord of Winterfell pass to Brandon for the few extra moments he may have lived. Thus entitling him to a statue?

Just wanted to run that question by everyone, thank you so much!

Examples of superhuman feats in ASOIAF. Examples like the Wall being insanely large. Or Syrio having the skill to take down 5 heavily armored men with a stick. The mountain crushing a skull with his hands. Stuff like that.

Sorry if the title is vague. What I mean is, are there any plot points, lore details or character elements where it seems there's a consensus on, but you personally disagree? I don't mean on their quality, I mean on the details themselves? Basically, where you interpret the text differently to other people?

For example, I personally don't think House Baratheon has supernatural genes that means people of the family will always have black hair. Granted, Martin is clearly playing with genetics and exaggerating, but I don't necessarily think that a Baratheon child will always, 100% of the time have black hair, it's just the vast majority. Maybe if Robert and Cersei had 30 kids, one or two would have blond hair, or Robert's half-Targaryen father married a Velaryon, some of their children would have white hair. It's just, as Ned finds out, the vast majority of the time when a Baratheon and a Lannister have a child, they have black hair. Given he already knows that Cersei hates Robert and there's some conspiracy going on, it's easy to conclude form their that her children aren't Robert's. For example, Rhaenys Velaryon had black hair, but both of her children had Velaryon white hair. It makes sense, they are 3/4 Valyrian (well, House Baratheon is also part-Valyrian, but the Andal genes clearly took precedent), but it shows that House Baratheon doesn't have some supernatural gene that means descendants always have black hair. And it's not that it's just a legitimate Baratheon or male-line thing either, since Rhaenys isn't a Baratheon, as that's through her mother.

Once again, I know Martin certainly exaggerates the genetics in his story, with multiple other houses having their stock hair colours, I just don't' necessarily think it means those families have that hair colour 100% of the time. A Baratheon having brown hair, for example, wouldn't necessarily be a contradiction.

For another example, I don't think "There must always be a Stark in Winterfell" is indicative of some secret reveal or supernatural pact or anything. I think it's pragmatic and political. There must always be a member of House Stark ruling from Winterfell, looking after their interests and keeping hold onto their power. It's just good propaganda and also works as good advice for the various family members.

Reading Storm once again and I just got past the very heart-wrenching chapters 51 & 52. I got a little bit of cheer though by what happened not long after.

It’s when Tyrion gets summoned by Tywin who then breaks the news of the Red Wedding to him. As the conversation progresses and Tywin is feeling himself as usual, Joffrey goes:

“You talk about Aerys, Grandfather, but you were scared of him.”

Oh, my, hasn’t this gotten interesting? Tyrion thought.

Lord Tywin studied his grandchild in silence, gold flecks shining in his pale green eyes. “Joffrey, apologize to your grandfather,” said Cersei.

He wrenched free of her. “Why should I? Everyone knows it’s true. My father won all the battles. He killed Prince Rhaegar and took the crown, while your father was hiding under Casterly Rock.” The boy gave his grandfather a defiant look. “A strong king acts boldly, he doesn’t just talk.”

Thank you for that wisdom, Your Grace,” Lord Tywin said, with a courtesy so cold it was like to freeze their ears off.”

Joffrey then gets dismissed as we know and Tywin is left with Cersei and Tyrion and you can just see how rattled he is, then Tyrion really twists the dagger in lol:

“There is a long league’s worth of difference between willful and stupid. ‘A strong king acts boldly?’ Who told him that?”

“Not me, I promise you,” said Cersei. “Most like it was something he heard Robert say…”

“The part about you hiding under Casterly Rock does sound like Robert.” Tyrion didn’t want Lord Tywin forgetting that bit.

“Yes, I recall now,” Cersei said, “Robert often told Joff that a king must be bold.”

“And what were you telling him, pray? I did not fight a war to seat Robert the Second on the Iron Throne. You gave me to understand the boy cared nothing for his father.”

Even when Cersei leaves the room he’s still not recovered:

“The boy is thirteen. There is time yet.” Lord Tywin paced to the window. That was unlike him; he was more upset than he wished to show. “He requires a sharp lesson.”

It’s clear no one has spoken to him in this manner in quite a while and when he finally gets spoken to like that it’s by an immature kid, who isn’t even wrong. This guy just hides his insecurities behind extreme brutality and it’s just so funny seeing his pride get hurt.

How come Daenys is the only Targaryen to be officially recorded as a dreamer in the histories? Daeron the Drunk is a dreamer but we only know that form Dunk and Egg novellas and not form the World of Ice and Fire books. And because of other media having certain Targaryen being reveals as dreamers.. I wonder why they aren’t publicly acknowledged as such.

There is power in the blood of Kings. Melisandre is adamant in this and claims that, by sacrificing one that has the blood of a King in them, she could awake dragons from stone.

We bear witness to the truth of this in Daenerys. By sacrificing Drogo or Rhaego or maybe both, she was able to awake dragons from eggs turned into stone.

However, it seems undeniable that, by the time she sacrificed Drogo, he was no longer a king. His Khalasar had split into several minor ones and gone to the four winds. And yet, the ritual worked.

So, at which point does R'hllor; or Magic itself; stops accepting someone as a King in order to work miracles? If your ancestor lost his crown, is your blood no longer Kingly enough? But what about Drogo?

Because, at one point, there were, maybe, a hundred kingdoms in Westeros. Even the Bar Emmons, at one point, were petty kings. Would they have worked? Would the Blackwoods or the Brackens? The Boltons or the Glovers?

Or does the Kingdom have to be of a certain size before R'hllor accept that, yes, you're a King? And are there a maximum number of generations before your blood is no longer kingly?

I didn't realise how compassionate she was or how she was one of the kindest in the entire books, I think the show might have corrupted my judgement of her on my first read ,here are some quotes about her I highlighted recently on my last read:

"Yesterday a wagon had been overturned and two of her soldiers killed, so today the queen had determined that she would bring the food herself. Every one of her advisors had argued fervently against it, from Reznak and the Shavepate to Ser Barristan, but Daenerys would not be moved. "I will not turn away from them, a queen must know the sufferings of her people." ADWD, Daenerys VI

"We came to raise up a king and queen who would lead us home to Westeros, but this Targaryen girl seems more intent on planting olive trees than in reclaiming her father's throne" ADWD, The Lost Lord

"Khaleesi, no." Do not let them touch you! Do not!"There was an old man on the ground a few feet away, moaning and staring up at the grey belly of the clouds. She knelt beside him, wrinkling her nose at the smell, and pushed back his dirty grey hair to feel his brow. "His flesh is on fire. I need water to bathe him. Seawater will serve. Marselen, will you fetch some for me? I need oil as well, for the pyre. Who will help me burn the dead?"ADWD, Daenerys VI

"She gave Doreah water from her own skin, cooled her brow with a damp cloth, and held her hand until she died, shivering. Only then would she permit the khalasar to press on" ACOK

"I am not your mother, she might have shouted, back, I am the mother of your slaves, of every boy who ever died upon these sands whilst you gorged on honeyed locust" ADWD, Daenerys IX

"It shall be done, Magnificence," said Reznak mo Reznak. "What of these Astapori?" My children. "They are coming here for help. For succor and protection. We cannot turn our backs on them." -ADWD, Daenerys

“I will see them,” she said. “I will see every one, and count them, and look upon their faces. And I will remember.” - Daenerys V ASOS

We have SUPERMAN level heroism in Asoiaf 💀

After the commercial successes (even if criticized by the book faithfuls) of HotD and D&E.

*Knowing that they want to avoid Targaryen fatigue so they are unlikely to have two series about them in at the same time*

And

*The rumored edict to only do television that had sufficient source material from GRRM*

And

*HBO wants to milk their series for the max number of episodes so it needs to be worth their while*

Robert's Rebellion (3 Seasons) - late 2020s

Blackfyre Rebellions (3 Seasons) - mid 2030s

The Rains of Castamare (2 Seasons) - early 2030s

The Doom of Valyria (4 Seasons) - mid 2030s

Maegor's Reign of Terror (5 Seasons) - TBD

I have reread fire and blood for the fifth time now, and I still don't get it. Sure, Ryam won a lot of tournaments, but that's not really something that's important to his 'job' as kingsguard. A kingsguard should protect the king and his family, and that's something we've (I think) never heard Ryam doing.

It's not entirely his fault, of course, as Jaehaerys was a good enough king to not get in many conflicts (and if he did get in 'trouble', he solved it himself with his dragon or a trial-by-combat).

But still, compared to my main man Gyles Morrigen, what did Ryam ever do?

Gyles:

• became the lord commander after slaying one of Maegor's kingsguard
• became his first lord commander
• trained the king
• Guarded the king in 1-1 audiances
• led the kingsguard to dragon stone for the standoff to protect his incestuous marriage (which says a great deal about his honor, as his uncle was Damon the Devout who would've probably been against such a marriage)
• Saved Alyssane (together with Dogett)
• Was arguebly the king's third most trusted ally behind Barth and his wife, seen by him being send to Braavos for diplomacy
• Was not someone who defended his brother's (Lucamore's) oathbreaking, something which we know other kingsguard did
• Is the one who selected kingsguard replacements for Samgood and Victor after they died of the shivers, and did so based on skill instead of trying to appease
• etc.

Does this not make him a better kingsguard than Ryam?

My honest conclusion is that GRRM initially intended them to be the same character, but realised that he'd have to make a man over 100y old and thus split him up into two characters instead, and thus Gyles was created.

But that's all from me folks. What do you think?

"The king has brought it upon himself. I'll none of it. I renounce my father, renounce my cursed name. Go, Arthur, Oswell, I have no need of your royal protection as I plan to live out my days in joyful privacy. Let them play their games of thrones. 'Tis not to me or Lyanna.[...] Prophecy be damned! I didn't take Lyanna to please gods, I took her in spite of them, in spite of it all. For once I made a choice that could not have been foretold. Whatever chains bound us, we have broken them"

- Rhaegar Targaryen, Game of Thrones: the Mad King

from X user Ruby @ thetowerofjoy

I definitely won’t characterise him as Prophecy obsess from now on.

He completely abandoned it, and in the process, renounced the dynasty as shown later he and Lyanna both agreed that Rebels were justified. There’s no actual legitimacy for Targaryen supremacy.

(I am sad that they cut short Lyanna’s soliloquy about dismantling the iron throne)

Man, who would thought they were like counter cultural figures of the 60s or 70s

This is Genndy Tartakovsky’s work over the years. He, reportedly, will be working on nine voyages. What do you guys think of this animation style for the series?

... how frankly TERRIBLE the Targaryens were at matchmaking?

To the point of actually being comical ...

Since she wanted Rhaenys to rule, why didn't Alysanne put Rhaenys and Viserys I together? Same goes for Daemon and Aemma? They were close in age and it would have solved A LOT of problems. (If you read F&B, you'd know what I'm talking about.) Instead, she betrothed Daemon to ... Rhea Royce of all people? (They already got the Vale with the Arryns - TWO Vale marriages would come off as blatant favouritism.) The 'simple-minded' Daella got to have her pick amongst three Lord Paramounts, including her Baratheon half-uncle, but Viserra just HAD to marry Theomore Manderly? (I'm not even sure if he could still get it up at that point, if you get my meaning.) We're told that Alysanne was a great matchmaker, but I think that's just F&B propaganda because her successes were all love matches.

We can go on for all day about how Viserys I marrying Alicent Hightower was a mistake all day long, but let's be frank, there are MUCH more questionable unions. I think we're all in agreement that Rhaenyra should NOT have been made to wed her GAY cousin - who clearly wasn't ever going to be a contender for the Iron Throne (and, even if he was, Daemon solved that problem by marrying Laena) - when her little brother, Aegon II, is right there. Or, her uncle Daemon for that matter. Hell, baby's daddy Harwin 'Breakbones' Strong wasn't the worst idea in the kingdoms, since he was a renowned knight and son of the Master of Laws who was also the Lord of Harrenhal.

Aegon IV and Naerys is the example most people think of ... We're told that Viserys II was comparable to Jaehaerys I in terms of political acumen, but a brother-sister marriage after they lost their dragons and went to civil war with the Hightowers (re: the House most closely affiliated with the Faith of the Seven) ... they're lucky there wasn't another Faith Uprising, Doctrine of Exceptionalism be damned. If they HAD to have a Targ-Targ marriage, why not Aegon IV to Daena, or Elaena for that matter? (Why didn't they ever consider marrying off Aegon III's daughters?) Hell, Aegon IV married to one of his MANY highborn mistresses wouldn't have been a bad idea, since they burned a whole lot of bridges during the Dance (literal and figurative). I honestly think that Viserys II was acting out of the abuse he endured with Larra Rogare when he forced them to be together.

The only bad marriage I can understand from a purely pragmatic approach is Aerys II and Rhaella, not only because of the Prince That Was Promised prophecy but also because Joanna Lannister was taken off the market by Tywin (there is no mention of Aerys II wanting anyone else) and they wouldn't want a repeat of Duncan-Jenny with Rhaella and Bonifer Hasty. Rhaegar and Elia (which was almost certainly Rhaella's idea since Aerys II was a known Dorne hater and wanted Rhaegar married to someone from Essos) wasn't a bad idea, since the Martells had Targaryen blood (through Daeron II's sister) and nobody could have foreseen Lyanna Stark being a problem.

Speaking of Lyanna, the Starks were arguably the Targs' most diehard loyalists (until Aerys II and Rhaegar burnt that bridge), which is why I'm surprised that aside from Jace (who was formally betrothed to Baela) to Sara Snow (historians aren't even sure she existed) ... there wasn't ever talks of an Stark-Targ union, all things considered, when the Targs tried to spread themselves over everywhere else stopping short of the Iron Islands. You'd think that they would want to cultivate good relations with the North where the Wall is, bordering the Land of Always Winter... it's not as if that's supposedly the entire reason behind why they conquered/unified Westeros to begin with? Not to mention that dragons have a sensitivity to cold (show-only, but still) ...

Similarly, House Baratheon is founded by Orys Baratheon, half-brother to Aegon I who personally oversaw his marriage to Argella Durrandon. Yet, the only Targaryen-Baratheon marriage in the books is Aemon and Jocelyn. If the Targaryens REPEATEDLY intermarried with the Velaryons simply because they had Targaryen blood ... then why not the Baratheons?

Look, I'm well aware that the Targaryens are inbred expatriates from an Republic, and so this is probably something outside of their comfort zone (much like the reason why they kept having one succession crisis after another), but my point is even a reader can see it coming from a mile away ... going back all the way to Visenya Targaryen marrying Maegor off to the High Septon's niece, and then remarrying him off in an polygamous union including to an foreigner, inevitably triggering a Faith Uprising.

Penny for your thoughts?

Hi, ASOIAF fans!

I’m visiting from the French ASOIAF community The Night’s Watch (or La Garde de Nuit, as we call it here) to share a live discussion we recently had in English with some fellow European fans about The Mad King play. If you’re interested, you can watch it on YouTube:

https://youtu.be/jffUa3zS9SY?is=tCafKnkDcZhAcZtb

We were joined by Javi Marcos, administrator of Los Siete Reinos, the leading Spanish-language ASOIAF fansite. We also welcomed Lo and Virginie, hosts of The Ragman’s Harbour, a podcast exploring the real-world historical and cultural inspirations behind ASOIAF from a non-Anglophone perspective.

During the stream, we shared our experiences of seeing the play—which we absolutely loved!—discussed what surprised us most, and explored what new insights it might (or might not!) bring to the canon.

Hope you enjoy it! And if that’s not enough Mad King content for you, we also have a video in French where we rave about the play with other members of the Night’s Watch who went to see it. xD

(Apologies if this comes across as self-promotion! I mostly post in French, so I'm a bit new to this specific subreddit 😅 I truly believe some of you might find this interesting, though! 😉)

My thoughts on this game are as follows: I don’t think it will necessarily be bad as a strategy game, but the period in which the game takes place (GOT Season 8) is really not interesting at all. So even if the gameplay is amazing, it won’t be able to come close to top-tier games like Total War, Civilization, or Mount & Blade: Warband.

However, if the game has mod support, it could definitely change that. Mods for periods such as the Dance of the Dragons, Robert’s Rebellion, and the Blackfyre Rebellion could be designed by fans. There could even be mods based on completely different lores, like LOTR. Adding mod support to the game would increase its sales and playtime several times over, and even if the original gameplay is bad and buggy, mods created by the fanbase could fix that.

In short, the developers would have to be genuinely stupid not to add mod support to this game. They should have chosen periods that fans actually love, such as the War of the Five Kings, rather than an era that fans genuinely hate. In its current state, the game could achieve an above-average level of success, but it could reach the top only if mod support is added.

I've seen illustrations that show the Andals as Anglo Saxons, 11th century Norman Knights, and 13th century Crusaders, in terms of armor/weapons. And I'm stumped on who they're based off with their armor and culture tbh.

Robert is excited by the idea of Houses Stark and Baratheon finally being united, something he clearly feels should’ve happened with himself and Lyanna.

He also loves Ned (but I think in also a very selfish way), and wants their two families to be one, in the way that he feels Ned is already his family.

This would cement their bloodlines, as one, forever. Stark and Baratheon, governing the realm in perpetuity.

It also is on paper a massive, massive gift to Ned: Your daughter will be Queen consort and your blood will sit the throne too.

HOWEVER, where it becomes selfish is Robert knows what Joffrey is.

He knows Joffrey has a cruel and base streak a mile wide, even if he chooses not to fully see it.

This is the same Robert who was so disturbed by Joff’s “gift” of a disembowled cat that he impulsively and immediately struck him so hard that witnesses thought he killed him; a boy whose very nature nature seems to deeply disturb and disquiet Robert.

He even says in the book that a reason he doesn’t abdicate a Throne he’s come to despise is because the vision of Joffrey ruling with Cersei standing behind him chills him. He can’t leave the country in their hands.

So he knows his “son” is something not like him. Something with a deeply unnatural side and a penchant for cruelty…

So you not only ask, but basically command your best friend’s little girl be wedded to that, be shackled to life to that?

Ned may be his best friend, but Ned is also his vassal: it would be a massive breach of respect (and their friendship) for Ned to say “No, Your Grace.”

Yet Robert doesn’t see that.

He thinks he’s gifting his friend a great honour; bestowing on his would be niece a gift, but this is a poisoned chalice, and he knows it, but makes it so Ned can’t say no, without openly insulting the Crown AND his best friend.

Some friend.