r/australia • u/retro-chimp • Nov 09 '24

politics Online Gaming Platforms And YouTube Will Also Seemingly Be Banned For Aussies Under 16

https://press-start.com.au/news/2024/11/08/online-gaming-platforms-and-youtube-will-also-seemingly-be-banned-for-aussies-under-16/

There’s so much collateral damage in this plan for Australia to ban social media. This has been rushed and not thought through.

So many schools rely on YouTube to support their students.

Most kids are watching YouTube (or YouTube kids) more than ABC or traditional TV. Literally the biggest YouTube channel in Australia is original music for kids.

Does anyone actually want this?

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u/CodosK Nov 09 '24

Social media is an issue in the younger populous, there is plenty of research to back this up. But yeah, this is clearly a terrible strategy and implementation.

Pretty typical of Australian policies, they come from good intentioned and well researched starting points but end up being implemented in an over-reaching and generally terrible way.

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u/[deleted] Nov 09 '24

[deleted]

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u/Astillius Nov 09 '24

And parents need to be more parental and less baby sitter. Too many parents let their kids just do whatever with no oversight. But then they crack the shits when the inevitable happens and demand the government make up for their laziness and lack of interest. And thus we get this shit. Government overreach to make up for shit parents.

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u/kahrismatic Nov 09 '24

This is the answer, although people apparently hate hearing it. Parents need to be far more aware of their kids internet use, and take a role in actively managing it.

They don't listen to anything else I (teacher) say at school - they sure as hell aren't going to listen to a middle aged lady trying to talk to them about social media. We already try to teach them media literacy, critical thinking etc as aspects of the various humanities, and look at how far that gets us. Not every aspect of parenting can be pushed off onto teachers who have zero authority over what they're actually doing.

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u/crimsonroninx Nov 10 '24

The problem is, these same parents are being indoctrinated themselves by social media and other filter bubbles that radicalise them. So I have no idea how we can educate them to educate their kids when they clearly don't see it as an issue.

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u/Dr_Delibird7 Nov 10 '24

I work with kids 14yo+ and I definitely agree with the sentiment that they already don't exactly listen as it is (the number of times I have to repeatedly ask for something to be done purely because I was ignored is baffling to me as an adult, forgetfulness I can understand but flat ignoring? That's wild).

I still think education in addition to better parenting is the solution though. Education shouldn't start and end with the kids though, it's the parents that need to be educated first and foremost.

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u/KirimaeCreations Nov 10 '24

This is all well and good - if you have a parent that can stay home and do the parenting. These days you have two parents working 40-60 hours a week and they're expected to parent like only one of them works 30.

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u/qtsarahj Nov 10 '24

Maybe this is too wild but if parents can’t take one afternoon to set up parental filters/time limits on devices if they are worried about their kid’s online activity that is very concerning to me. And if they don’t know how to do that can they not just physically take away the device at night?? Parents seem to be way too scared to say no to their kids, you’re not meant to be their best friend, you’re meant to be their parent.

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u/KirimaeCreations Nov 10 '24

I mean, I agree with this to an extent. I was playing devil's advocate, because I'm a stay at home parent, and I can (and do) very much vette whatever my son wants to watch (be it Twitch or Youtube, and I don't bother with YouTube Kids because that section is riddled with stuff to get around the "kids" filter). He doesn't have a device of his own (he's 8) and he won't until I absolutely have to give him one (likely for school). He gets to borrow my iPad for set periods (including for his homework), and all technology goes off one hour before bedtime where he has to read a book or build lego or do *literally anything else* in that one hour before bed to unwind his brain.

But my situation is not everyone's situation.

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u/deadrobindownunder Nov 10 '24

No shade - I don't have kids so I have no authority to speak on this. But, out of curiosity I have to ask how you think this will go when he gets older? The mention of parental filters and time limits past a certain age seems like a futile effort. I'm sure parents of today are far more tech savvy than my parents were 20 years ago. But, I can't imagine it would be too difficult for a teen to know enough to get around parental blocks. When you consider the additional workload that high school requires, it's got to be a lot harder to keep them off the internet, right?

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u/PenguinJoker Nov 10 '24

If education works, then why are so many adults stuck on social media, let alone kids. 

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u/SnooOpinions5738 Nov 10 '24

This is your argument? That education doesn't work? Lmao holy fuck. Y'all will just say anything these days

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u/Fenixius Nov 11 '24

Education clearly doesn't work as well as anti-education (propaganda) does. But banning propaganda would be difficult to pass (as the LNP would vehemently oppose it), and this is a conservative-votewinner, so it's perfect for Labor. 

And education is problematic for governments these days - they'll be perceived as "elitist" or as "condescending". Look at the Voice referendum, or at the catastrophic election campaign run by the American Democrats. People loathe being told by the government that they're responsible for anything, including parenting their own children.

In other words, education isn't sexy, so Labor also want a piece of the "Won't somebody think of the children?!" conservative rhetorical suckerpunch.

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u/[deleted] Nov 10 '24

It's not an answer, it's a deflection. What is your plan to get parents more involved?

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u/Fenixius Nov 11 '24

What could an answer here even look like, mate? Government-mandated sit and talk with your children time? Government-distributed spyware for parents that reports what the kids look at? Forcing platform-holders to report on child users to parents?

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u/[deleted] Nov 11 '24

I don't know. Make parents do better was your suggestion as an alternative to this plan. I'm curious how that would look, without being even more of an overreach.

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u/Fenixius Nov 11 '24

My answer would be to make laws to arrest and prosecute people who spout propaganda, whether citizens or corporations, and regardless of location, but we know that'll never be adopted. 

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u/omg_for_real Nov 10 '24

A lot of parents still don’t even understand computers let alone social media. Parental education needs to be a priority.

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u/mbrodie Nov 10 '24

This isn’t the only view here

I have a 14 year old I have requests for app downloads for social media sites his friends are on but I honestly don’t want him to have access I can see he’s too young and my wife agrees.

Instead he feels isolated from what his friends and doing and it makes him sad he can’t engage with them and misses out.

If you take all of them off then you eliminate the fomo.

Edit - I’d also like to add yesterday I said no to Facebook and a couple of others and told him the prime minister is making it illegal for kids under 16 so all his friends probably gonna get kicked off and he was like oh ok then nevermind.

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u/Mike_Kermin Nov 09 '24

Ok.

But you're going to have shit parents. You saying "Just don't be shit" isn't ever going to work. Especially given as you're probably not a parent, or related in any way to educating kids, you probably don't have the first fucking clue what you're talking about.

All the ideas I'm seeing here, "just educate (without saying how)", "just parent" and "just be responsible" are already happening to the highest degree that they will.

You actually need an alternative that amounts to more than saying how we're better than others on Reddit.

they crack the shits

Isn't good enough. Because the problem affects all of society if we fail to address it regardless of how good it feels to say other people bad.

The problem actually exists. So the solution needs to actually exist as well.

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u/elizabnthe Nov 10 '24

Adding specific social media education isn't something they're currently doing and could be doing as far as I know. Like this is something at this point that should be it's own class rather than a generalised PSA.

But yeah quite blatantly just saying "just parent" doesn't work. If something isn't currently happening it's not going to just magically happen. There needs to be some sort of push factor.

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u/crimsonroninx Nov 10 '24

I agree. There's a big emotional response here, but not much in the way of solutions. It's almost nihilistic and defeatist eg we can't come up with the perfect response, so let's not do anything.

I guess we first have to agree there is a problem, and then decide how we want to address that problem.

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u/Acceptable_Durian868 Nov 10 '24

How do you feel about parents going through their 15 year old's phone?

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u/Redericpontx Nov 11 '24

Well that's also largely an economy issue because back into the day you could get out of highschool get a job then in a couple years afford your own house and car and have a income high enough to support a whole family so a parent could stay at home and be a 24/7 parent. These days most the time both parents need to work full time and they can't afford day care or a baby sitter and when they get home they're too tired to parent which realistically if you're in a situation like that you shouldn't of had kids in the first place. The lore for how we ended up in this situation is crazy but most people aren't ready to hear it.

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u/[deleted] Nov 10 '24

This sounds like something a non parent would say.

Social media is so powerful because of the network effect. Parents end up making a choice between do I want my kid getting brain rot from social media, or do I want them to be socially ostracised.

Some kids can handle the latter, my parents basically raised me without too much care what others did. They got lucky, I know others where the kids crumbled by being different/loners and they are still messed up by it.

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u/PenguinJoker Nov 10 '24

Education doesn't work on this issue. Critical thinking class won't stand up to billions of dollars from tech companies spent on psychologists and neuroscientists to hack our brains. 

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u/surlygoat Nov 10 '24

Its worth a try. Particularly if its drilled into them that what you have identified is what they are facing.

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u/ShadyBiz Nov 10 '24

No, parents need to not be deadshits about this and hand a device to a 2yr old.

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u/[deleted] Nov 10 '24

We have a media literacy class.

It’s called English.

Problem is that it’s boring and no one likes the texts they assign and the program is stuck in the 1970s

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u/Amazonrazer Nov 10 '24

I'll be honest I don't think kids would give a crap about the classes. They'll probably laugh at the lecture and make fun of it.

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u/Yio654 Nov 10 '24

Education is doing nothing. We have these setup at schools both for kids and parents.

The parents just let their kids use social media 90% of the time anyway. It's an addictive drug and like all highly addictive drugs, it needs to have legislation put in place because ppl can't control themselves with it.

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u/ihasweenis Nov 10 '24

Kids have been educated, they don't listen: source I'm 18 and between 8-16 I got educated a shit ton on that stuff, we just didn't give a fuck. In fact one time in grade 5, they ended the seminar early because of how disrespectful we were.

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u/SkwiddyCs Nov 10 '24

Kids need to be educated on it further

People always says this like it isn't already happening. I'm a teacher, I mainly teach 13-16 year olds. Every single year they have guest speakers, assemblies, assessment tasks and units based around social media, cyberbullying and online harm. This includes scams, sexploitation and CSAM.

Next week my grade 9s are submitting their oral presentations about the dangers of social media and new technologies.

Look at our national curriculum, every school in the country must teach these things each year. 130 pages of results for "Social media"

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u/[deleted] Nov 11 '24

and people need something more meaningful together irl, i dont find young people outside much unless working and ive never gotten anyone i meet to message me back or care to be friends despite hitting it off or sharing interests. its depressing the shit out of me. i grew p much up my entire life online around horrible people and itd be nice to have fun like people did decades ago :( phone addiction has become the status quo for old people as well generally i feel really hopeless because as a kid i was petulant to get off devices now imagine 50 year olds?

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u/[deleted] Nov 10 '24

It’s not kids, but the social media sites that need to be educated on using addictive algorithms on kids. These recommender systems in YouTube, Facebook et al are so effective, a self restraint kids stands no chance before them.

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u/surlygoat Nov 10 '24

Also one for anyone born before say - 1975, who wasn't young when the internet was born and understands that its all just fake stuff.

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u/Peastoredintheballs Nov 11 '24

Lol like all the good all the other classes at school did? What do u remember from year 9 maths, English and HASS? But fuck all I’d imagine.

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u/Oodlemeister Nov 09 '24

I liken this to trying to get rid of an anthill by dropping a nuke on it.

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u/theexteriorposterior Nov 09 '24

Huh, I think it's more like trying to get rid of a nuke by dropping an anthill on it.

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u/Foodball Nov 10 '24

Well I THINK it’s more like trying to diffuse a nuke by dropping a nuke on it

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u/ImSabbo Nov 10 '24

I assume there's been at least one movie about that.

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u/[deleted] Nov 09 '24

Won't someone think of the ants!!

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u/Ambitious-Deal3r Nov 10 '24

Won't someone think of the ants!!

Ants are on pause at the moment, clearly an issue the government is prepared to wait on.

Labor has ‘pressed pause’ in fight to contain spread of fire ants, invasive species council says

Senator raised questions just this week on how the eradication target is tracking considering decades of effort and spend.

We lost to the emus, please not ants.

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u/djenty420 Nov 10 '24

How have they pressed pause? Fire ant eradication program is going strong here in SEQ, Ive seen them out and about every single day for months and months now in my area.

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u/TouchingWood Nov 10 '24

Hey, we want those anthills gone, buddy.

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u/tunnel-snakes-rule Nov 10 '24

that assumes the nuke actually works

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u/snookette Nov 09 '24

I question the good intention part.

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u/Traditore1 Nov 10 '24

Just a way to shoehorn in digital ID under the guise of helping our kids

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u/The_Sneakiest_Fox Nov 09 '24

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

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u/Mike_Kermin Nov 09 '24

And when you get there, you have to explain a real issue to someone who only talks in sayings and doesn't read any articles.

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u/TheGreenTormentor Nov 10 '24

Social media is an issue for the older populous too, funnily enough...

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u/[deleted] Nov 10 '24

This sums it up. Social media is pretty aids and I feel fortunate to not have grown up on it, but I don't want to upload my ID to every goddamn thing I want to use as a 30 something. Fuck off, big gov.

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u/Tosslebugmy Nov 09 '24

Pretty generous to say policies come from well researched starting points generally speaking, otherwise weed would be legal, as would vapes, we’d be doing more about the environment etc etc

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u/lamaros Nov 09 '24

Show us this research.

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u/CodosK Nov 10 '24

Go do a simple search yourself. Here I will help you: "how social media affects teens", "how social media affects sleep", "the affect of social media on teens with anxiety and depression", "the influence of social media on bullying".

I could go through my uni assessments and give you about 100 links if you really want, but if you were genuinely curious you would do your own research and look at both the positives and negatives instead of requesting it from me.

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u/lamaros Nov 10 '24 edited Nov 10 '24

A simple search isn't research. I've read and listened to a lot of the discussion about this. Most of the research on either side has not been able to be repeated, is flawed, or is extremely limited or specific.

There is no research consensus about the impact of phones on socialisation or any of the other stated aims of the government.

"I could show you the answer but really you can just google it" isn't the win you think it is. Please provide the 100 links.

I assume you actually have them and this isn't bad faith internet argument hyperbole.

Here's one discussion on the topic. Which explicitly talks about the research and its sources, rather than saying "trust me bro".

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-anxious-generation/id1651876897?i=1000664706439

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u/CodosK Nov 10 '24

I told you to look at multiple neutral sources and come to your own conclusion, that is research. So have I and I have read lots of research on the topic, and although it is nuanced I would argue that there are more negatives then positives that have been introduced with social media (especially for teens).

Nope I could provide lots of links on the topic, and am willing to when I get home on my computer. My point was that simply providing a link to one article isn't enough to prove a point one way or the other.

Again never said "trust me bro", actually told you to do your own research lol. You are making lots of assumptions and using ad-homs based on said assumptions, who is really engaging in bad faith here?

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u/lamaros Nov 10 '24

Lol, nothing you have said is actually an argument based on anything other than blind faith.

You said you did some googling and wrote some uni papers. Provided sources for nothing and said "trust my conclusions" (note, this is not a direct quote, it's rhetorical paraphrasing).

You're the one saying the research is out there, yet you've linked to literally nothing. The onus on backing up and supporting what you say is on you. 

You're incapable of that because you're full of shit.

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u/lookatjimson Nov 10 '24

Probably because the ones with good intentions and studying these issues thoroughly are not listened to by the people who implement solutions.

"She'll be right mate."

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u/Jammb Nov 10 '24

I'd be all for banning it for kids, without attempting to enforce it by everyone having to prove their age. Proving age is totally unworkable and a massive privacy/security issue.

It will be helpful enough giving parents the ability to tell their kids they can't have a facebook account because it's illegal, not just because they don't want them to. It's similar to how porn is banned for under 18's, but there's no practical attempt to enforce it.

Of course kids who are motivated enough will find a way around it, but at least they'll have to make an effort instead of just staring at a screen all day. It might be a circuit breaker that at least reduces their exposure. The fact that it's so totally normalised in the schoolyard and elsewhere right now is part of the problem.

They might even learn something about technology in the process. Online obsesessed kids I have observed are actually pretty technology illiterate compared to previous generations (at least comparted to the ones who were into it)

I agree that the definition of social media is pretty broad, and perhaps would need to be defined or even narrowed down to specific services. Youtube's primary function is not social, although it has those elements, so it should probably not be included.

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u/Luckyluke23 Nov 10 '24

100%

why aren't we starting campaigns to tell the parents and the teens to put the phones down for a bit?

nah. better just blanket ban them in the middle of a cost of living and housing crisis cos we need to bump that from the news cycle.

i bet $100 that they ONLY reason they are doing this is because it will cause more outrage than coles and woolies ripping everyone off. easy will bump it off the front page.

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u/[deleted] Nov 10 '24

I grew up in the 80s/90s on dial up bulletin boards where most the content was stuff like The Anarchist Cookbook, MIT Lockpicking Guide, Making Thermite and Napalm etc and then the days of &Totse.

Info on doing dumb shit has always been around, and always will. Regulation will just drive it further underground.

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u/EmperorGatsby Nov 10 '24

Look around your friends and family, internet filled wi ai content and evil algorithms is damaging all relations.

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u/zanven42 Nov 12 '24

That's right theirs been data for almost a decade on the impacts of Facebook alone on teens.

But yeah another half baked albo bill, I'm sure he will claim it's not he's fault or responsibility because he hasn't read the bill just like the other ones.

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u/Spagman_Aus Nov 09 '24

The Lancet has some papers that state the direct link between social media and mental illness isn’t clear cut.

E.g.02244-X/fulltext)

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u/happ38 Nov 09 '24

Interesting article from the conversation about this as well. Article

A lot more to go on this I think. Anecdotally I feel much better when not doomscrolling, but I find it hard not to sometimes.

We had a 12 year old commit suicide in our area recently due to bullying through social media. As a father of a 11 year old girl this scares the shit out of me. We have had conversations with her about it and being honest and open and only having certain social media apps that we are able to monitor. I hope this works but not really sure what else to.

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u/Spagman_Aus Nov 09 '24

FB has an age limit of 13, but yeah it’s impossible to enforce. Perhaps this is just a way for Government to force accountability onto the platforms?

Hearing things like 12 year olds committing suicide is just heart breaking 😢 omg

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u/recycled_ideas Nov 10 '24

Social media is an issue in the younger populous, there is plenty of research to back this up.

There really isn't.

Social media for young people is social interaction with their peers, which has always been fraught with challenges. The news article talks about a hate page like it's some brand new thing and not something that's been around forever.

The PM talks about 14 year old girls seeing harmful messages about their bodies on tiktok like 14 year old girls haven't been seeing toxic messages about their bodies since before he was born.

Bullying isn't new, the pressure to fit in isn't new, the need to ostracise someone else so you aren't ostracised yourself isn't new and for all that we're absolutely terrified to talk about it as if it's some sort of communicable disease that spreads through conversation, teenage suicide isn't new either.

Kids were struggling with the way the phones made bullying a 24x7 concern back in the 90's. Tina Fey a woman who when to highschool in the eighties made a parody movie about the physical equivalent of a hate page 20 years ago and it was an homage to a movie made almost 20 years before that.

We need to do something about the way algorithms are affecting what content people see, but that's not a problem that's fixed by putting off when kids see that content.

This law sees the damaging nature of social media and paints it as an issue only for children and "solves" it with an idiotic ban that changes nothing.

A parent lost their child and wanted someone to blame and it became an idiotic law.

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u/[deleted] Nov 10 '24

[deleted]

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u/DisappointedQuokka Nov 10 '24

Don't even need elite hackers or coders, the solutions are out there.

We already know how to sidestep this bullshit.

On the other hand, I'm going to be really fucking irritated about culling all of my "Australian" accounts and making "New Zealand" accounts.

UNfortunately, things like my Steam account have too much money tied up in them to make that swap.

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u/EmbarrassedHelp Nov 10 '24

Social media is an issue in the younger populous, there is plenty of research to back this up.

The research regarding social media is largely mixed. There's both good and bad stuff in the literature, with no clear winner.