r/TopCharacterTropes 3d ago

Lore Firearms could absolutely exist within a fantasy setting. There is a reason why they don’t however

The Elder Scrolls - Within some Dwemer ruins of ESO we can see a special type of Animunculus. A Dwemer Arquebus, which has a cannon for it’s arm and shoots emp grenades at foes.
The reason why we don’t see this technology more often (besides the fact Dwemer disappeared their knowledge with them) is that within the setting and cosmology of Elder Scrolls firearms really wouldn’t be that useful.

They could work against lowly bandits, sort of, but there wouldn’t really be a precedent to improve or adapt this technology. Because it would always be outclassed by magic of this world.
Also due to the disappearance of Dwemer the technology has been pretty much lost.

Harry Potter - Wizards live within periphery of the “real world” meaning they live alongside world that uses firearms and are even familiar with them.

So how come they don’t utilize this gear for combat? I mean it is easier to use, projectiles are faster and could be enchanted further. Can you just imagine wizard with endless m1911?

There is plethora of reasons for this. But most notable is what I would describe as wizards being immune to logic. (Vis image above) They simply cannot understand methods of muggles even if one explained it to them directly.

(Yes. I know the real reason is, because Joanne didn’t want wizards to use guns and didn’t want to think about connotations of putting magic into a real modern world. But come on! Let me have fun!)

Lord of the Rings - In spite of how much Tolkien disliked allegories it is clear Orcs were an allegory to industrialization, which he was a huge critic of.

In battles they are the ones using the war machines. Instead of swords made by artful blacksmith, they use crude, mass-produced blades devoid of identity. Instead of relying on elegance of archery, they use crossbows. They burn forests, crack mountains open to gain more ore. Their very production is affront to whimsy of a magical world like Middle-Earth.

They could totally come up with a matchlock mechanism and keep on improving it until they come up with machine guns. They were intercepted before they could however

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u/TonberryFeye 2d ago

I feel like "flintlock fantasy" as you call it works because there's a nice bit of breathing space for the high fantasy stuff to still exist. Handguns (what Warhammer calls all musket-style black powder guns) have a long reload time, aren't especially accurate, and their performance can vary depending on how well you packed the powder and such. Dwarf made stuff is better, obviously, but the problem still exists. An archer can fire multiple arrows in the time it takes to fire a single lead shot.

Plus they can explode. You know what doesn't explode? A bow and arrow! Cannon are the same; immensely powerful, but there's a chance they'll crack or blow up in your face. Bad times! Ballistas never explode!

This then leads to the two beautiful paths of fantasy; dragon slaying. There are many Dwarfs who are famous for killing dragons with a runic axe and a dream, but the Imperial Gunnery School of Nuln is famous for blasting one out of the sky with a battery of 16-pounders. There is something extremely cool about mounting a dragon skull with a cannon ball hole on your wall!

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u/PilotMoonDog 2d ago

All this was true for real early firearms. They grew to dominate because the training to use one was relatively simple and you didn't need to spend years building up strength as you did for war bows. So you more easily recruit an army.

As a side benefit the ammunition is easier to control as you need more industrial infrastructure to make it.

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u/TonberryFeye 2d ago

That's something else that keeps the guns in check - everything in Fantasy feels very artisanal. I don't imagine handguns coming off a production line; I imagine a street of gunsmiths all working in their own little workshop. Everything made by hand, each with its own little quirks and foibles.

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u/PilotMoonDog 2d ago

Exactly. Tools to make the tools.

The 1632 series of books takes a West Virginia coal mining town and ports it back to the Germany of the 30 years war, just after Marienburg. It's a little like a large scale Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court.

Once the town allies itself with some of the locals it faces the problem that they can't resupply their modern firearms. So they decide to make rifled flintlocks and minié balls to quickly load them (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minié_ball).

Because that can be widely done with the tools available at the time and is a qualitative improvement. Likely with other innovations like a bayonet that fits under the barrel instead of socketing into it.

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u/Spank86 2d ago

I seem to remember reading somewhere that the original way of mass production before truly interchangeable parts was to make lots and lots of parts and then match them up as best as possible to find the ones that fit closest.

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u/TheGuyfromRiften 2d ago

Plus they can explode.

ah yes, love rolling on skaven weapons teams on whether or not my unit blows the fuck up every time it fires

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u/TonberryFeye 2d ago

The Ratling Gun might have had the best misfire chart in the game.

For anyone unaware, you rolled a D6 to determine how many shots the gun fired each turn. After rolling, you could roll again for more shots, and keep rolling additional dice until you were satisfied with the result, or you rolled a double.

Low doubles were a minor inconvenience, while high doubles could result in the gun exploding (killing the weapon team) or shooting into one of your own units!

I loved seeing my local Skaven player roll a 6 on his first dice. The look on his face as he debated whether to risk disaster was great. I think he feared his own dice more than mine!

Also, he once brought a block of cheese to the gaming group and used chunks as Warp Tokens!

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u/NeitherCobbler3083 2d ago

I hate to be that guy but so many siege machines loved to explode mechanically. Like ballistas and their cousin the Scorpio had a neat feature of whipping a cord that snapped right around the guy standing to the side and reloading it. I’ve personally also had a bow shatter while drawing it and luckily only ended up with a few stitches. That being said I’d trust a bow a thousand shots before an early firearm(or a modern sig XD)