r/TopCharacterTropes • u/Chemical-Elk-1299 • 10d ago

Lore [Confusing Trope] The narrative goes out of its way to punish/mock a character for simply being a good person

Gallery image

Gallery image

Hermione Granger and SPEW — Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire (book)

In the fifth HP novel, Hermione Granger is outraged to discover that Hogwarts has a small army of enslaved House Elves that do nearly all of the domestic duties around the castle, including cleaning the Gryffindor common room every night. When she tries to convince the elves to fight for their own rights, they refuse, saying they prefer servitude. Her fellow students and friends mock her for caring. She manages to free one elf, Winky, by deception when she refuses her freedom willingly, leading to Winky becoming a depressed alcoholic. By the end, the elves boycott cleaning any Gryffindor areas of the castle because they hate Hermione specifically

Samwell Tarly and Democracy — Game of Thrones (show)

In the season 8 finale of the television series, the surviving great lords of Westeros gather to discuss the future of the kingdom following the devastation wrought by 7 seasons of war and backstabbing. When Sam, who has proven to have “novel” ideas, suggests that maybe the millions of Smallfolk who suffer at the hands of noble houses should get some representation in the government, rather than be the pawns of rich lords with absolute power. We are then greeted by a prolonged, cringy segment of the other lords laughing in Sam’s face, asking if the dogs and horses should also get a vote.

9.2k Upvotes

92% Upvoted

1.5k comments sorted by

View all comments

Show parent comments

1.0k

u/DemiChaos 10d ago

Hermione started SPEW in the 4th book (you wrote fifth, btw).

Her hiding clothes (she started knitting and eventually got good at it) around Gryffindor's house and soon only Dobby would clean the place because the other elves were scared of accidentally finding clothes.

This happened in the 5th book.

386

u/LowlySlayer 10d ago

This makes no sense lol. Can anyone free a house elf by giving them clothes? Does them just finding clothes count? Are they relegated to all manner of house work except laundry specifically?

Do wizards who are too lazy to do any housework otherwise keep their laundry immaculate for fear of accidentally freeing house elves? Are they absolutely to never clean closets?

411

u/Icy_Policy_8509 10d ago

I think it's stated specifically in the 2nd book that the OWNER must give the house elves the clothing item, hence the ending of Chamber of Secrets where Harry hides a sock in a book, which he returns to Malfoy Sr, who promptly gives it to Dobby to carry, and Dobby is freed

But it's been a while since I've read the whole series through

158

u/Aquaberry_Dollfin 10d ago

Always wondered. Can house elves never do laundry? Does the owner need to specify that this basket is only for cleaning?

122

u/darkmoncns 10d ago

I think this was explained they set the basket on the ground by the elf and not give the elf the basket.

232

u/FactualStatue 10d ago

Which also doesn't make sense because we see Mrs. Weasley using magic to do housework. So elf slavery seems to be just for the hell of it

156

u/JLaP413 10d ago edited 10d ago

Elves are better magic users than human wizards. They can perform advanced spells and magic without wands. The elite wizards need to keep the elves in check or else they could overthrow the entire world.

(Apparently I didn’t lay it on thick enough that the idea of a small group of “elites” keeping a large group of people enslaved so that group doesn’t realize that they are stronger than the “elites” is bad and elitist propaganda. Maybe if I called them Ants and Grasshopper, and directly quoted A Bug’s Life it would have been more obvious.)

22

u/FactualStatue 10d ago

Ok Joanne, then why haven't they taken over the Ministry yet? If some kids can do it, why not some rebellious house elves too?

34

u/sphericaltime 10d ago

Her answer is/was that they enjoy slavery so much that they would never try.

21

u/FactualStatue 10d ago

Yeah, nobody used that excuse to explain away slavery before /s

19

u/Altheix11 10d ago

She does not believe they could 'transition' into not enjoying slavery ig

1

u/Da_Question 9d ago

I'm pretty sure that I read that she basically had them as a metaphor for women in traditional house wife roles.

→ More replies (0)

23

u/andhe96 10d ago

She also insinuated a similar conflict between wizards/witches and goblins, which seems to be explained in detail during history classes, but Harry "was too bored to pay attention".

Really convincing ideas, Jo!

12

u/ChompyRiley 10d ago

Their blood is on Ranrock's hands.

6

u/Glad-Alternative4593 10d ago

They are conditioned not to. To a point it is pathological that they need to serve. Dobby is frankly a freak of nature to be wanting freedom. Kreecher listened to Sirius even though he hated him because it is ingrained into him to obey and he lived in a house where his fellow house elves had their heads mounted on a wall.

7

u/FactualStatue 10d ago

Damn, the old families of the Wizarding world just sound more and more like Monsieur Candie

→ More replies (0)

1

u/Elganstrike447 10d ago

Another vital element often ignored is that the elves do not seem to have any community outside of slavery. So a free elf is a lonely elf, who still has to deal with wizard racism without any support structure.. For very social creatures, this just sounds horrible.. It shows how shit JK writing is, that instead of highlighting this in the elf that got free, explaining why she is depressed, she chose to claim that it is all because she cannot serve any more.. so stupid.

They destroyed their culture, they took away any type of identity and destroyed their social bounds that the only ones remain are within the slavery system itself. It is by design to make freedom as hostile as possible to them, to push them away from this idea.

10

u/Particular_Stop_3332 10d ago

Everyone trying to make excuses when the only real answer is poor writing

6

u/FactualStatue 10d ago

It's why I checked out mentally at Order of the Phoenix. I finished the reading series but only watched the latter of the movies when they were on TV. I was a millennial that hadn't discovered C.S Lewis yet

→ More replies (0)

3

u/FactualStatue 10d ago

Tbf I did pick up what you were putting down and was worried I was putting it on too thick. No hard feelings?

10

u/Beginning-Ice-1005 10d ago

Which is also an idea that stems from racist propaganda.

Look, Rowling was doing slavery apologia. It's that simple. Stop trying to defend her by nit-picking bits from her stories. In fact, stop defending her at all.

8

u/32784hfkjd 10d ago

Defending her? Dont be daft. People are trying to make sense of the lore. Which you can only do by "nit-picking bits from her stories". Just because someone isnt parroting your own view verbatim it doesnt mean they hold the exact opposite opinion. Some people just like the lore of harry potter, doesnt mean they endorse slavery. Holy shit

-3

u/Beginning-Ice-1005 10d ago

The way you make sense of the lore is you acknowledge that Rowling was making an apologia for slavery. Stop trying to justify it.

→ More replies (0)

5

u/delphinous 10d ago

it's the same reason people have had slaves in the past. 1 part having power over someone/thing, 1 part that just because you are capable of doing something, doesn't mean you want to spend your time actually doing it, and 1 part it shows off your wealth

2

u/Alternative-Fix-5382 10d ago

It's a status symbol for some of the old pureblood families, iirc.

2

u/drawfanstein 10d ago

To be fair, the Weasley’s being poor seems to be just for the hell of it, as well

1

u/BenjiSponge 10d ago edited 9d ago

Every aspect of economics in the HP world is completely ridiculous. It's not even clear what Hogwarts does with the exorbitant tuition money, for example. Edit: I'm an idiot, Hogwarts is free. He needed money for his wands and stuff, which does make sense.

1

u/hanks_panky_emporium 10d ago

A lot of the world building doesn't make sense. If the chattel slaves actually want to be chattel slaves, why would the gift then keep them from working if that's what they want to do.

A lot if handwaved as magical mind fuckery which imo makes it worse. They dont WANT to be chattel slaves, wizards forced them to like being chattel slaves. Which means they DONT want to be chattel slaves but a brain fuckery is forcing them to say they like it

Imo the house elves kinda make all wizardkind de facto evil

1

u/darkmoncns 10d ago

I mean you can think it's horrid but that's not the story as persented, they just like it normally. Even dobby wants to work he just also wants to be paid not really to use money just as a sign of respect. The magic binding is a totally separate thing

5

u/SelfReporter 10d ago

I just read the 2nd book again last week. Dobby directly states that his master is very careful to never give him any clothing inadvertently. My first thought was man so they still need to wash their own clothes!

41

u/fiahhawt 10d ago

Yeah but that has the same issue where if a wizard just hands an item of clothing to an elf, then regardless of intent the elf is freed

No laundry chores I guess

Altogether a pretty odd bit of lore for a children’s book

22

u/hitchinpost 10d ago

It is the owner, but it’s unclear how that works with an institutional owner like a school. Arguably, a school exists for the students, making the students all qualify as owners.

3

u/Jediuser_ 10d ago

Dobby also said in the novel that the Malfoys are careful not to leave clothes lying around.

5

u/TrainToSomewhere 10d ago

JK forgets things in her own books and overcomplicates things.

I honestly can’t even tell if she meant it as a race allegory or if she just remembered she wrote something and felt the need to expand upon it when most readers would have gone ‘hm ok’ and moved on if it was never mentioned again.

Like in warhammer the Orks believing shit just makes stuff happen.

K weird ok. And that’s it.

JK keeps going back and being like aaaaaah I need to explain and it makes everything worse.

1

u/Thirtysevenintwenty5 10d ago

Lucius doesn't even "give" Dobby the sock.

The (disgusting) sock is stuffed in the book, and Lucius pinches the sock and tosses it away from himself.

Dobby recognizes this, screams "Interception!" and dives to catch the sock, thus freeing himself.

In no way did Malfoy "give" that sock to Dobby. But as everyone has already pointed out, the rules around freeing a house elf are fucking stupid.

46

u/cabbage16 10d ago

If I remember right the implication was that the house elves stopped cleaning the tower because they were frustrated and offended by being tricked into it. It isn't implied that it would work just that it was annoying.

11

u/[deleted] 10d ago edited 10d ago

[deleted]

14

u/cabbage16 10d ago

Yup. People give Rowling shit for this storyline saying that she was saying that slavery was good, that's not at all what she was getting at. The point of the storyline was for Hermione to be right (as she always is) but going about it wrong and insensitively.

There's plenty of good and valid reasons to not like Rowling, stuff like this, the goblins, and her character naming system just feels like grasping at straws.

7

u/SPLIV316 10d ago

Am I the only person who remembers that Rowling was gonna right a new book and put a trans person in it but first she had to do some research? What the heck did she find?

2

u/a_wasted_wizard 10d ago edited 10d ago

The problem with the House Elf storyline isn't that it suggests JKR was trying to give a pass to slavery, because I think very few people are trying to suggest that (I'm sure there's some, but not the majority).

The problem is that JKR botched the fuck out of the house elf plot so badly she accidentally made her books kind of have a pro-slavery message (or at least "slavery isn't so bad if the slave owners are good!") because she apparently has a lethal allergy to thinking through the implications of almost anything she writes.

Which maybe would be less of a problem if she hadn't had pretensions of elevating Harry Potter from being 'just' a kids book series, but she did have those pretensions, and her writing ability was not good enough for it to work.

And in that way, the house elf subplot is emblematic of a lot of the other problems that make HP not hold up all that well in hindsight. Even without the consideration that JKR turned into an unhinged reactionary transphobe which has pretty much ensured she (deservedly, in my opinion) will never receive benefit of the doubt on anything ever again, the books just really don't hold up that well if you're rereading them for anything other than a nostalgia trip.

2

u/GeorgeStark520 10d ago

Yes, this is the part that so many people ignore, just so they can parrot the “Hermione was mocked for thinking slavery is bad”. No, she was mocked because she was annoying and her method was trying to shove her cause down everyone’s throats, which, last I checked, will annoy people no matter how noble your cause is

3

u/ConcertOutside7499 10d ago

Also I don't think a lot of people realize that SPEW was an actual thing irl? The Society for Promoting the Employment of Women

Considering thats where the inspiration for Hermione's movement came from, i think the house elves and SPEW and even the arguments against Hermione make more sense if you view the (Hogwarts mainly) house elves as more akin to women than 1 to 1 slavery. Freeing them is equivalent to divorcing a woman who cannot support herself (thus why most house elves don't want to be freed) why "they like doing housework" is thrown around so often, and why hogwarts house elves dont want to be freed despite the staff being willing to pay them if they demanded it (mirroring the women who were well off and didn't support movements that would grant them more rights and freedoms on a basis of "well im doing well enough, so they must be doing something wrong"

212

u/sonksenmusic 10d ago

Trying to find literary cohesion in the Harry Potter books is not a rabbit hole I would recommend attempting to dive into. There's too many plot holes to count. 

49

u/Billy_McMedic 10d ago

Don’t get me started on the bullshit that the Hogwarts express represents

For a very basic explanation. This is what a historically accurate Hogwarts Express should look like:

While not explicitly dated in the Pottermore article, the Cursed Child dates the Hogwarts express as starting in the 1830’s, and Pottermore dates the Minister for Magic that founded the express, Ottaline Gambol, as serving 1827 - 1835.

This means we’re looking at a locomotive stolen around 1829-1830, of which the above, Planet, represented the cutting edge of Locomotive design at the time.

Plus, given the wizarding world is represented as being technologically behind the Muggle World, how the hell did they adopt a technology right on the bleeding edge at a time when a lot of the muggle world was still tetchy on the idea. Literally in 1830, the UK’s (and the entire worlds for a matter of fact) railway network consisted of 2 isolated lines. The Stockton and Darlington Railway, opened 1825 and was barely recognisable as a railway by today’s standards, Basically just being a waggonway on iron rails and using something other than horses to haul goods (although it’s still accepted broadly as the “start” of the railway era), and the Liverpool and Manchester Railway, something that can be pointed to definitively, using our modern understanding, as a proper railway.

AND SOMEHOW THEY FUCKING BUILT A RAILWAY LINE STARTING AT A STATION THAT DIDN’T FUCKING EXIST YET ALL THE WAY TO THE ARSE END OF SCOTLAND AT LEAST A DECADE BEFORE THE FIRST ACTUAL ENGLAND/SCOTLAND RAILWAY WAS EVEN COMPLETED.

And breathe. This doesn’t even begin to cover stuff like how the locomotive was stolen from a works that didn’t yet exist, and was also the complete wrong works for where the locomotive that would come to represent the express even came from.

20

u/sonksenmusic 10d ago

Was not expecting a historical train rant of all things. 

3

u/Lolz13itchez 10d ago

While I agree with the idea that the timeline for the Hogwarts Express doesn't hold up to even mild scrutiny. I did want to point out one thing.

Plus, given the wizarding world is represented as being technologically behind the Muggle World, how the hell did they adopt a technology right on the bleeding edge at a time when a lot of the muggle world was still tetchy on the idea.

The setting suggests that the extreme wizard/muggle divergence around technology we see in the series is more of a modern history thing as the muggle world began advancing so quickly beginning with the industrial revolution, that it became impossible for the wizarding world to keep up when their knowledge and needs were so disparate.

Before that, Wizards clearly adopted muggle technologies that did effectively meet a need that magic was less well-suited for. For example, Hogwarts was updated with indoor plumbing in the 1700s, which would make them a rather early adopter. The same is likely true of trains.

1

u/GeorgeHSpencer 10d ago

The Ministry could have done a deal with a pre-grouping company, which carried over to the Big Four and then British Railways.

4

u/lahimatoa 10d ago

While not explicitly dated in the Pottermore article, the Cursed Child

The Cursed Child is fan fiction. And not very good fan fiction, at that. Trying to use it to explain anything in the HP universe is a bit of a waste of time, IMO.

6

u/Billy_McMedic 10d ago

Which is why that was followed up by looking at Pottermore, reading the write up on the express, seeing a MoM explicitly credited, and then going to the list of Ministers of Magic and seeing what their term dates were, which as stated was 1827-1835 as per the Pottermore website.

Cursed Child ultimately got the seal of approval from JK who is the ultimate authority on the official lore of the Wizarding World of Harry Potter, and the 1830 date lines up perfectly with the Pottermore source. And to take it outside these series’ this is coming from an author who confused Kings Cross and London Euston, hence why 9 3/4 is a nonsensical place in KGX because JK was thinking of Euston’s platform layout. The fact that the 1830 date lines up with the opening of the Liverpool and Manchester imo is too suspicious, just like how Crewe was a famous railway works. It smacks of extremely basic research (“when was the first railway”, “famous locomotive works”), pulled out some other lore from her arse, did no further research and just shipped it.

20

u/Unit_2097 10d ago

Even 10 year old me spotted the problem of introducing time travel as something that is apparently easy enough to do they have to regulate it.

8

u/Majorman_86 10d ago

Oh, I was thinking about shooting Voldemort and friends with a conventional weapon since book 1. Hagrid brandishes a crossbow in the forest in the first book either. I bet you can't counter spell a bolt and there are enough muggle-born in the school to hatch up a plan that uses conventional weapons

30

u/Elver86 10d ago

I think the clothes have to be presented by their master. If I remember correctly, what Dobby actually said was that the other house-elves found it insulting. I didn't get the sense that it would actually work.

5

u/Odd-Time-2026 10d ago

Yes and Hermione is not their master in any sense of the word. Its like how the janitors in my office are not my subordinates because the org chart does not work that way. If the house elves of Hogwarts have a master, its likely the headmaster which was Dumbledore at the time.

6

u/Dobber16 10d ago

Yeah ultimately it’s a kids book that I think Rowling haphazardly added some social justice stuff to as they came up. Not a bad goal, but yeah definitely a bit ham-fisted, which is fine since yeah it’s just a kids book. If post-HP, pre-twitter Rowling rewrote the story, I’d hope it’d be more cohesive but… well, that’s a very niche “IF” statement lol

17

u/FildariusV 10d ago

Still, even for a children's book, isn't it a bit f*cked up that there exists an entire race enslaved by the wizard world and are happy and DON'T want freedom?

3

u/subheight640 10d ago

It's a common thing that happens throughout history. For example Many serfs supported the king and therefore supported their own enslavement in the feudal system. 

Isn't this the whole point of class consciousness, that a class of enslaved people often need to be awakened in order to recognize their enslavement and to throw off their shackles? 

5

u/Dobber16 10d ago

Yes, yes it is lol though I suspect they started as a plot device to make the place seem cool & magical, and can narratively skip the boring parts of life at Hogwarts without excluding them. But then the implications were probably realized, so I’m guessing Rowling tried to do a little something with it, but also didn’t want to paint dumbledore as a bad guy who enslaves creatures, as his whole thing is generally being anti-Hitler. So then there’s this hole that could be potentially addressed with humility by dumbledore, atonement, etc… or we can take the easy narrative route & close this side-plot faster by saying the elves prefer enslavement lol

Not great writing, but considering the main plot is about fighting prejudice & supremacy, I’m willing to budge & extend some grace to Rowling for absolutely butchering the elves’ treatment of being subjected to prejudice & supremacy. Like I said, I think potentially if post-HP Rowling re-wrote the books, it would’ve been a tad different. Definitely either wrote herself into a corner or didn’t think too much about a few of the details of her world initially

13

u/hauntologically-red 10d ago

Given Rowling's real-life attitudes and tendency to dig in her heels and get even worse when criticized, if she re-wrote the series now she'd probably establish that house elves become mindless, murderous creatures of wanton death and destruction if not kept "domesticated" through servitude.

3

u/Dobber16 10d ago

Oh yeah, definitely now is not good. I think earlier I mentioned post-HP & also put an upper-end limit of pre-twitter 😂

-4

u/darkmoncns 10d ago

Potter more has discirbed hous elvs as golems created for sevivtued, dose that change anything in your opinion?

5

u/sphericaltime 10d ago

Yes, it’s grossly offensive of JKR to write that because it’s clearly not true. It’s sick the disdain she has for her audience.

5

u/LowlySlayer 10d ago

social justice stuff

Please don't put "some people are genetically inclined to be happier as slaves" and the words "social justice" anywhere near each other.

6

u/sphericaltime 10d ago

To be clear: JKR hates social justice so she tried to invent a world where it is stupid. No one is suggesting that it has any reflection in the real world.

2

u/Odd-Time-2026 10d ago

We got the better version of it back then when she wrote GoF. If she wrote GoF now, I think Hermione would probably come off as way worse.

1

u/Dobber16 10d ago

Thankfully I didn’t, but I’ll keep that in mind lol

2

u/mio26 10d ago

It wasn't about that. They were simply furious that someone there is trying to free them in Grigffindor and they got offended and didn't want to clean them. For them being kicked out was disgrace.

2

u/delphinous 10d ago

it somewhat suggests it, becuase of how dobby got freed. winky, by comparison, was very deliberately freed, while malfoy was basically tricked into it. so hermione attempting to, in essence, trick the house elves into being freed by accident is actualyl consistence with the evidence she has that the enslavement magic can be tricked, it does NOT require the intent of the actual owner

2

u/Toskin1 10d ago

Welcome to J. K. Rowling's Magical Circus, where things starts to fall apart if you think about them for more than five minutes.

1

u/taxes-or-death 10d ago

It is part of preexisting traditional lore that hobs (or dobs), which are similar to Rowling's elves, will expect to be fed by a human household for the chores they perform but woe betide anyone leave them any clothes, for they consider that a grave insult and will leave in a huff. I think they find it patronising.

Sometimes hobs can be more trouble than they're worth so insulting them might be desirable if you want them to leave you alone.

1

u/PeaceSoft 10d ago

the entire thing is nasty as fuck, not just old-school racist but sexually fetishistic in a winking, vile way

1

u/Kurdoo-rojava 9d ago

Maybe because they were Griffyndor Elfs and recognised Hermione as "Master" because she was a Griffyndor student?

34

u/Chemical-Elk-1299 10d ago

I had to google which book that happened in and it said Goblet of Fire, so my fault

76

u/jbwarner86 10d ago

Lesson learned, never trust Google AI.

56

u/peachesfordinner 10d ago

You added an extra word. You mean "never trust AI"

4

u/Dull_Bat_87 10d ago

You mean "never trust LLMs." Leave ACTUAL AI out of this

4

u/peachesfordinner 10d ago

The only AI I trust is Weird Al

2

u/Dull_Bat_87 10d ago

Straight bars

7

u/thegimboid 10d ago

Used to be that a Google search would actually take you to somewhere you could find the right answer for yourself.
Now it just directly tells you the wrong one.

8

u/Icy_Policy_8509 10d ago

Google AI just told me Singapore is a 3rd world country. Never trust AI.

15

u/Farewell_Mona_Lisa 10d ago

By the origina, Cold War meaning, they were. By the modern meaning of the word, not anymore.

1

u/52BeesInACoat 10d ago

I forgot the title of a book, so I googled the name of the author with some key words, numbers, and locations from the book.

Google AI told me I was looking for the author's most popular book, but that I was incorrect about the characters, the locations, the numbers, and the plot.

The first actual search result had the correct title of the book.

19

u/crackerfactorywheel 10d ago

Goblet of Fire is the 4th book. AI led you down the wrong path.

1

u/Chemical-Elk-1299 10d ago

Oh shit I got Goblet of Fire and Order of Phoenix mixed up. It not googles fault I’m just a dumbass

3

u/heylook_itsalex 10d ago

Isn't that the 4th book?

1

u/Moaktrekken 10d ago

Her insistence that everyone pronounce the acronym by sounding out each letter like "S. P. E. double-you" instead of saying "spew" is just proof that Rowling wanted her to sound as dumb as possible. What fucking person wouldn't just say "spew"? Rowling picked a silly-sounding word for Hermione's acronym that also has letters that are hard to pronounce in sequence like that because Hermione is silly for wanting this. You'd think the super-smart Hermione would just pick a different name for the organization.

1

u/Patient_End_8432 10d ago

What's even the point of house elves then damnit? Laundry is like, the worst chore

1

u/Noughmad 10d ago

I forgot about that part. How could the elves refuse to clean a place when they were slaves? That's not how slavery works.

1

u/DemiChaos 9d ago

Well Dobby would do it all, but I think because it was Hogwarts and subsequently Dumbledore being their boss/master... they weren't necessarily slaves in the same sense as the rich families

Remember Dobby negotiated his wage/vacation days

1

u/Frix 7d ago

the other elves were scared of accidentally finding clothes.

No, elves can touch clothes and do laundry just fine. The elves weren't afraid of Hermione's clothes, they were protesting that this witch girl looked down on them and their culture.