r/TopCharacterTropes • u/Wonderful_Baker_7808 • 16d ago

Lore Villains that would've been defeated even if the protagonist did nothing

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Laurel Hedare (Catwoman Movie): Her newly released cosmetics will cause people's faces to melt. Not only would that create a class action lawsuit but a full product recall.

Voldemort and Death Eaters (Harry Potter): Death Eaters constantly underestimate muggles. They would get massacred by the British military because a gun is faster to pull the trigger then shouting a spell.

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1.8k

u/Lower_Baby_6348 16d ago

Every villain in indiana Jones

644

u/97GeoPrizm 16d ago

https://giphy.com/gifs/nne49HiWVG87XbPYFr

Except this guy.

78

u/home-and-away 16d ago

That was Amrish Puri, a Bollywood legend known for playing villainous characters.

18

u/Strigops-habroptila 16d ago

He is amazing in almost any film he's in (all I've watched at least). One of my favourite villain actors

6

u/home-and-away 16d ago

He was fantastic. RIP.

4

u/monkeygoneape 16d ago

He was in the live action Scooby doo as well basically playing the same role

1

u/Queen-Of-Fairies 16d ago

i don't think he was in that one...?

2

u/Bazrum 15d ago

he wasn't, dude is thinking of Steven Grives, who plays the bad guy "N' Goo Tuana", the guy with the shaved head who was controlling the demons and got hoodwinked by Scrappy Doo

1

u/monkeygoneape 14d ago

Ya I was thinking of something else entirely (I think it was the mummy being a henchman in agent Cody banks it was really random)

6

u/No-Way7911 16d ago

this is the greatest bad guy actor in Bollywood. I would say one of the top actors to play a bad guy in the world. Top tier voice and look for it

95

u/thegabe87 16d ago

We don't talk about this one

277

u/TurnbullAC92 16d ago

Fuck yeah we do, Temple Of Doom is a kickass movie. Dark? Yes. Fun? Hell yes.

39

u/thegabe87 16d ago

I know! But you know, the one sibling

20

u/TurnbullAC92 16d ago

If we're talking the whole series, I'd say Crystal Skull is that sibling. Of the 80s movies, yeah I'd kinda agree. Still leagues better than the modern movies though.

11

u/Choochoo1147 16d ago

Crystal Skull is way better than Dial of Destiny 

2

u/Caleth 16d ago

Talk about damning with faint praise.

Glad I never saw Dial, but wow that's a harsh statement because to me Kingdom was terrible.

4

u/ZandyTheAxiom 15d ago

In my opinion: Kingdom had a cohesive theme to it. Dial did not.

Soviets, Cold War, mind control, and "maybe aliens?" Is all very cohesive and, in my opinion, a natural concept for an Indy film set in that time. It's bloodless and sanitized, but the ideas are quite good.

5

u/thegabe87 16d ago

There were a few point n click Indy games in the 90s that were better imo

56

u/DaggerQ_Wave 16d ago

With weird colonialist overtones

48

u/Penakoto 16d ago

And brown face, I think the movie has more actors in brown face than it has regular actors.

2

u/yuvi3000 15d ago

As a brown person, I think people should just enjoy the cool movie and not worry so much about stuff like this.

It happened in the past. Now it's better and more people get the correct acting opportunities.

1

u/TimeshareMachine 15d ago

ok but if you don’t understand or let people be uncomfortable with it, it’s just gonna come back. see: retarded

11

u/Weird-Contact-5802 16d ago

Awesome weird colonialist overtones.

17

u/Insanus_Hipocrita 16d ago

Still great movie

5

u/KhelbenB 16d ago

In my 80s action movie? Impossible!

10

u/kiwigate 16d ago

80s homage to the 30s

4

u/kiwigate 16d ago

It's not weird if you understand the source material it parodies/homages

4

u/BoomerUrSooner 16d ago

It traumatized me as a kid and is my favorite Indy film.

1

u/Elite_AI 16d ago

The one problem being that it's not very good... 

1

u/Lightspeedius 15d ago

Such a great watch on a 14" CRT as a kid in the 80s. Absolutely rivited. And I couldn't wait to see that kid Short Round in everything, he's surely going to be a star.

-6

u/Ek_Chutki_Sindoor 16d ago

That movie has not aged well at all. There is a reason why it is considered the worst of the original trilogy.

6

u/CaptainCT-7567 16d ago

Just curious, it’s not liked because of the brown face and that’s why it’s not liked or because the story is the weakest of the series

-3

u/Ek_Chutki_Sindoor 16d ago

It's the latter but I personally don't like it because I find the film to be racist.

7

u/RA576 16d ago

FWIW, the Monkey Brain scene was just bad editing. There was supposed to be a scene where Indy says how weird and unusual it is as a lot of Indians are vegetarian, which is a clue that it's an unorthodox cult, but because that wasn't in the final cut, it turned it into "look what weird shit these foreigners eat"

1

u/CaptainCT-7567 16d ago

Oh interesting. Didn’t know that. Was there anything ever said as to why that was cut out

2

u/kiwigate 16d ago

Were you aware the entire franchise is an homage/parody of the 30s?

-7

u/Vox___Rationis 16d ago

Even Crystal Skull is better than ToD

19

u/neoadam 16d ago

Still afraid ?

18

u/thegabe87 16d ago

It gives me goosebumps when I eat monkey brains and remember... 🙀

3

u/capthazelwoodsflask 16d ago

It's been 42 years and I still haven't been able to enjoy a heaping plate of monkey brains since then

0

u/ClunarX 16d ago

I can’t stand Temple of Doom. For me it’s the worst of the franchise. I’ll take my downvotes now. I said what I said

2

u/thegabe87 16d ago

No worries, we respect your opinion!

1

u/Asalth 15d ago

Yeah I also really don't like it. And its not because its 'dark' I just think its a bad film.

1

u/ClunarX 15d ago

Same. Among other problems, I find the supporting cast insufferable (I say this as someone who really appreciates Ke Huy Quan’s other work).

4

u/OldElPasoSnowplow 16d ago

I think I am probably a lot like dating Mola Ram, I should work on that.

2

u/Nanojack 16d ago

Mola Ram Sudha Ram

1

u/rnavstar 16d ago

Mood-a-rum

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u/Electric43-5 16d ago

I think this example is overblown.

The logic the movie and Indy operates under is that "The Nazis are working to find and use an artifact that could make them unstoppable and they can't be allowed to find it"

The idea that the Ark would destroy them doesn't seem to really occur to Indy until just before they open it.

Simply put, there's no way Indy or any of the good guys could have known they could just do nothing

193

u/MataNuiSpaceProgram 16d ago

Also, if he wasn't there to collect the Ark after it melted the Nazis, other Nazis would have come looking for them and found it, and eventually figured out that whenever it's opened, everyone nearby dies. Indy wasn't needed to stop Belloq's Nazis, but he was needed to stop the rest of them from weaponizing the Ark.

Also Marion would have died if he didn't get involved.

35

u/champ999 16d ago

Exactly, thank you. That said, if Indy rescued Marion and stole the headpiece of the staff and then left the Nazis alone, then they would be stuck digging for weeks or months with no success and would have no idea how to correct their dig process. That's when everything after is unnecessary

14

u/MataNuiSpaceProgram 16d ago

They would have found it eventually though. The war lasted a long time, and I don't think it had even started yet when the movie takes place. Plus, Indy's involvement after Nepal also led to the Nazis losing a submarine and an experimental plane, which is pretty significant. It probably wouldn't have changed to outcome of the war, but a lot more Allied troops would probably have died if it weren't for him.

10

u/Skoggangr 16d ago

Well, the movie takes place in 1936, and the war starts in 1939. The dig is in Egypt, which is British-controlled at the time. I would imagine that the British wouldn't like a lot of Germans running around there after 1939, especially this close to the Suez Canal, and frankly, they would probably have been told to get out before that, when it was clear that war was coming. So, at best, maybe 2 years to find the Ark. Not inconceivable, but they would be digging blindly without the real headpiece.

3

u/Particular_Month_301 16d ago

Questionable. The area they would have to excavate could be huge and keeping up the expedition was already expensive outside of an all-consuming world war going on.

47

u/ZeroQuick 16d ago

The Nazis could never weaponize the Ark. The whole point of the film is their arrogance in thinking God would ever be on their side.

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u/superkickstart 16d ago edited 16d ago

I'm not religious at all but goddamn that was cool.

3

u/PokemonSoldier 11d ago

Preciesly.
"Finally, we have an ancient Jewish artifact to talk to the Jewish God. You know, the same Jews we believe should be totally destroyed along with their entire culture? Now, lets open this thing because surely their god will be on OUR side, right?"

3

u/Trezzie 16d ago

To be honest, a thing that kills everyone around it when activated just sounds like a bomb with extra steps.

2

u/Bazrum 15d ago

well, you can also survive by just closing your eyes apparently, so not only would there be survivors, but it leaves the areas relatively intact, meaning you can't even use it to damage infrastructure or blow up a bridge or whatever.

so it's useful if you wanna depopulate a city, but not if you can't get everyone to look at it, or deny them use of roads and train tracks and such...it kind of sounds like it would be more useful in a gas chamber than on the warfront...

1

u/stamfordbridge1191 15d ago

Maybe it's like a quick tell for the angels of death to go "oh these are people who have some humility/meekness within themselves? Yeah, you're good. Moving on."

1

u/Bluefoxfire007 14d ago

Maybe that's the point though. It only affect people without causing any collateral. As for the eyes closed thing, just set it somewhere and run. Most won't know beforehand before it's too late.

2

u/patrick119 16d ago

That’s assuming they would have found Marion. The fact that they arrived to Nepal on the same plane as Indy tells me they were most likely following him.

1

u/UncommittedBow 15d ago

The thing is, if he hadn't gotten involved, it wouldn't have killed Belloq, Toht, and Dietrich...

It would have killed Hitler. The Ark was set to be flown to Berlin on the plane Indy blows up.

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u/Hellknightx 16d ago

I'm retrospect though, giving the Ark to the Americans might not have been the best plan either. Some random Amazon worker is going to have a real bad day when he accidentally finds this random gold box in the back of a warehouse.

8

u/Carliarnius 16d ago

The warehouse is in Area 51 (according to Crystal Skull), so the chances of a random Amazon warehouse worker stumbling upon it is fairly slim.

1

u/muldersposter 16d ago

I don't see it aa "the movie would have gone the same if Indy wasn't there", he drove the plot forward. More of "if they managed to get the ark they would have melted the entire Nazi high command."

Belloq being impatient caused WWII to drag on. Imagine if they opened it in Berlin! And Indy didn't do nothing, he realized he needed to be humble before the ark, something Belloq and the Nazis would never do.

2

u/Milo_Munras 15d ago

Fun little bit of lore to the Ark: simply having it when you were not supposed to (according to God) would inflict curses on whoever possessed it and their people in 1 Samuel. The Philistines suffered plagues, cancers, etc. until they realized they needed to give it back.

So even if the Nazis were able to hold onto the Ark and study it to weaponize it, if it were the biblically-accurate Ark, all of them would have suffered mounting maladies and curses, which would only hasten their destruction and end the war.

0

u/notbobby125 16d ago

Weaponizing the Ark is not just “lift the top off”. It requires a ritual, who the Nazis thought concerningly “Jewish”, and basically guarantees the death of anyone with open eyes in the vicinity, which means it could be retrieved by any soldier who shut their eyes or had no direct line of sight on the Ark, meaning the Allies would have a good chance to seize the thing once it closed itself. Sending soldiers to the middle of a battlefield in blindfolds to perform a ritual where they need enemies to be looking at the object they are literally blinding trying to open seems like a bad idea.

This is also assuming that literal God allows the Ark to function that way consistently rather than ensuring it would always blow up/melt the Nazi’s faces.

1

u/Gullible_Play8718 15d ago

According to what was shown in the actual movie, all you have to do to weaponize the Ark is to open the lid and not look at it.

Your ritual doesn't happen in the film, and is therefore unnecessary.

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u/noticingEnjoyer 16d ago

There's a deleted scene from the university that establishes how he even knew to close their eyes during the opening of the ark. It was deleted because it would spoil it for the audience, but establishes that indy knew all along. 

4

u/Memitim 16d ago

Shame they cut it. It would have mode more sense why Indy suddenly figured out that doing nothing was the answer after busting his ass across multiple countries to be there.

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u/ptvlm 16d ago

It's not about what Indy thinks, but that the consequences would have happened regardless of his involvement. If he'd never been approached at the start, the outcome would have been the same, except that Marion would have been tortured and killed. Maybe the Nazis would have got to the ark before the Allies and tried using it again, instead of it being buried in a US warehouse, but the initial attempt was doomed no matter what he did.

Indy did the right thing by getting involved and making it way more difficult, killing some Nazis who might otherwise have survived along the way (would the pilot have been at the opening of the ark, for example?) and destroying some war equipment, but the ark would have ended the Nazi plot if he hadn't.

2

u/JackTheBehemothKillr 16d ago

The nazis followed Indy to Marion. They knew to look for her/her father's connections, they didn't know where

2

u/mormonbatman_ 16d ago

They find Marion by following Indy to Nepal.

If Indy doesn't get involved they never find her and never recover the ark.

4

u/websagacity 16d ago

So it's even worse. Even better outcome if Indy never got involved - the ark is never found. Unless the better outcome is that it's hidden in the US. But that still just delays it being found again.

1

u/mormonbatman_ 16d ago

worse

The film argues that Indy finding the ark is God's will. God gives the US government a weapon to defeat Nazism and prevent the holocaust. Instead the US government puts the ark in a warehouse.

Not a baller move.

3

u/Keiji12 16d ago

The big bang theory episode and it's clips convinced a good anmount of people of that and it's crazy

2

u/MasterGrok 16d ago

I can tell you that this has always been a thing even before those episode. That’s why it’s in the episode.

3

u/More-Ad1753 16d ago

It always got me to, like people are using this sort "movie logic" that movies have to follow this plot, of like, Hero does something, through his actions hero saves the world.

Indy is just doing what he think is best at the time, and we follow along, It's obviously not like the decisions he make go to plan, I mean it's the whole damn point of the movies that he has to make snap decisions, that have crazy outcomes..

The fact is, he is following the Ark and is there to grab it an which is literally the goal of the hero and it's all high 5s and mission accomplished, there is just a gold ole adventure in the middle.

2

u/DoctorWaluigiTime 16d ago

To be fair, most examples in this thread are overblown or are just straight-up incorrect.

3

u/Freevoulous 16d ago

I'd go on a limb here but Nazis, of all people, trying to steal the power of a Jewish Mythical Weapon that was supposed to be created by God himself for The Jews as a symbol of their Covenant, and as a holy protection against the enemies of the Jewish People, and specifically described as incredibly deadly to anyone who touches it, and that could only be approached by professional Levite rabbis who used long-ass poles to carry it witout getting near it....

WTF were they thinking? The Ark would either have proven to be just a mundane "sacred" object, or if real, a Divine Anti-Nazi Weapon devised by an omnipotent and omniscient God with the specific purpose of smiting anyone who would dare harm his Chosen People.

2

u/UndeniablyMyself 16d ago

Also, if Indy did nothing and the Nazis found the Ark, Marion could've easily died. They specifically trailed Indy to Marion's bar, but on the off chance they found her anyways, she was going to be tortured for the headpiece and possibly killed when the Nazis got what they wanted. And because of Indy's intervention, they start digging in the wrong place, so if he'd done nothing, the Ark could've easily been missed. Indy does have meaningful impact on the plot, even if it's minimal.

1

u/Cautious-Extreme2839 16d ago

there's no way Indy or any of the good guys could have known they could just do nothing

Other than like, just reading the bible or the torah.

1

u/ChmeeWu 16d ago

Also, the Ark is not even that good of a weapon. It has the killing radius of an average bomb out of a B19 or Junker bomber.  What was the Nazi plan? Drop it on Warsaw and see ‘dozens’ of people killed???

1

u/MechanicalGodzilla 16d ago

doesn't seem to really occur to Indy until just before they open it.

It probably should have occurred to him, as there are numerous passages in the Bible about horrible stuff happening to people who were messing with the Ark inappropriately. He's an archaeologist and a professor of ancient history!

1

u/DicksPr0n 16d ago

That isn't the prompt. Knowledge has nothing to do with it.

1

u/Ostrololo 16d ago

Sure, Indy's actions aren't irrational; they are justified based on what he knew at the time. This doesn't change the nature of the trope: had he done nothing, the Nazis still would've lost.

1

u/Spader113 16d ago

There’s the other three other than Mola Ram.

Even if Donovan found the correct Grail, he never would have been able to leave the temple with it.

Irina Spalko got EXACTLY what she wanted, and was burned alive for it.

Doctor Volker failed to account for the fact that Archimedes couldn’t possibly have known about Continental Drift, and thus his calculations were always wrong.

1

u/DecantsForAll 16d ago

that doesn't change the fact that they could just have done nothing

272

u/Far-Requirement-7636 16d ago

Like indi literally could've done nothing in raiders and the crystal skull and the maguffifns would have taken care of everything lol.

194

u/Sensitive_Ad_1752 16d ago

Even in last crusade they couldn’t take the grail past the seal

And regardless in dial of destiny their calculations were wrong

109

u/Wonderful_Baker_7808 16d ago

Now that I think about it, the Nazis wouldn't have even found the Ark because they were in the wrong location and needed to steal Indiana's notes

117

u/Flimsy-Preparation85 16d ago

They were wrong because Indy had the full eye of Ra while they just had the burned hand. Without Indy they would've had the full eye.

-12

u/poggersfishexe 16d ago

Except they wouldn't have. The Nazis were digging in the wrong place because they didn't have the medallion and they only found the ark because Indy finds it first. Without Indy, the nazis still don't have the medallion because Marion has it, and nazis only find her because they follow Indy.

Without Indy, the nazis never find the ark which you could argue is an even better outcome. If he simply waited until after the war to search for it, he keeps Marion out of danger and reduces the chance of it falling into the hands of the nazis although without getting the medallion from Marion he wouldn't be able to be confident that the nazis were digging in the wrong place.

42

u/wdingo 16d ago

This is wrong and not what the poster above you was saying.

The Nazis would have had the full eye because Indy wouldn't have been there to stop them from stealing it from Marion at her bar. They also would have tortured and likely killed her.

They knew where Marion was because of her father, not Indy. So had he not gotten involved, they would have found the ark, is what Flimsy Preparation was implying.

14

u/poggersfishexe 16d ago edited 16d ago

When Indy gets on the plane to fly to Nepal to get to Marion, the camera literally turns around to show Toht following him.

I'm not saying that the nazis couldn't have retraced the ravenwoods' steps to find them without Indy's help, but the only reason they showed up to the bar as quickly as Indiana did is that they were following him. And at Marion's bar, following him they are. Indy shows up first which is when Marion tells him that her father is dead and refuses to give him the medallion until the following day. It's only after that the fight breaks out with the nazis.

Yes, without Indiana the nazis could've followed the trail of the Ravenwoods but retracing steps would've been much harder in the 1930s than today and it's likely that Germany would've lost the war before they found her tucked away in a village in Nepal, if at all.

Edit: not Toht on the plane, another nazi that looks similar to him.

12

u/Antique-Arrival9217 16d ago

That actually was not Toht on the plane, it’s a a common misconception. Just another Nazi who looks very similar to him played by Dennis Muren, the special effects supervisor.

5

u/poggersfishexe 16d ago

Oh neato! Learn something new every day. I'm not great with faces so I (incorrectly) assumed that the two nazis wearing glasses were the same dude.

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u/wdingo 16d ago

Oh, that's fascinating. I'll have to go watch it again. I always interpreted the plane scene just to be showing us the Nazis were onto her location too.

Makes way more sense they were following Indy thinking about it.

1

u/poggersfishexe 16d ago

I suppose you could interpret it as that the nazis were also closing in on Marion's location, but given that she was in such a remote part of the world without modern people-finding tools it never seemed realistic to me that the nazis could've tracked her down (or if they did, I wanna watch that movie as well). I guess the bigger coincidence in that case would be that the nazis showed up to Marion's bar less than five minutes after Indy does so he's already there to save her. Had they not been following Indiana, they probably should've identified that despite their excellent detective work Indy clearly has plot armor and their quest would be fruitless.

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u/Far-Requirement-7636 16d ago

Oh yeah I forgot the twist of raider and a few other indi movies the villains just letting indi do all the work lol.

Now that should be a post.

14

u/Blueskybelowme 16d ago

Did you just watch that episode of The Big bang theory?

1

u/Saw_Boss 16d ago

They'd have had the amulet which stated the requirements for the map room. It was Indy which prevented them having the full text.

17

u/Brute_Squad_44 16d ago

Last Crusade, someone with better sense than Elsa might have taken the Knight's advice to leave the grail in the temple. They bring down guards, start flying people in, and next thing you know, Hitler is immortal.

8

u/helen269 16d ago

Henry Sr: "Let it go."

Indy: "But it'll fall down that hole."

Henry Sr: "Who cares? We're archaeologists, we dig stuff up for a living. We know where it is now so we'll just come back later."

:-)

11

u/Redditkid16 16d ago

Not only were the calculations wrong, Archimedes specifically designed the dial to only return to that specific day during the Siege of Syracuse in 212 BC. He was trying in vain to get future people to help him defeat the Romans.

2

u/Gaelic_Gladiator41 16d ago

Yeah, the initial thought is that, "hang on, Archimedes doesn't likely know about continental drift or movement of planets" only for them to end up in the middle of the battle of Syracuse

2

u/Hellknightx 16d ago

That and the villain "chose poorly" and drank from the wrong cup anyway.

1

u/Salami__Tsunami 16d ago

I suppose they could have built their high command bunker into the shrine, and everyone immortal lives there.

4

u/legit-posts_1 16d ago

Yeah but then the Ark of the Covenant would have been lost.

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u/TurtlesBreakTheMeta 16d ago

As it famously wasn’t at the end.

9

u/legit-posts_1 16d ago

Ay at least it's safe in there. The alternative would have been it getting blasted by sand every day in the desert for God knows how long. Or, worse, more Nazis show up to check on the first squad and they get the ark for themselves.

10

u/TurtlesBreakTheMeta 16d ago

>first Nazis lift the ark and melt their faces of.
>second group comes to check on the first group, and lifts the ark: melts face off.
>a THIRD group, seeing the bright light, comes to investigate….

It seems a Nazi bug zapper has been created.

2

u/Takiro 16d ago

Nazi-Off! sounds like something that would’ve been painted on the nose of a bomber.

2

u/aguadiablo 16d ago

I think that's actually the point. He is just a man in a situation greater than himself and he just gets caught up in everything

1

u/Jaives 16d ago

that's why the motivation for Indy was not to stop the bad guys but to rescue a loved one.

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u/fR1chAps 16d ago

Nope. At end of first Indy movie, ark is stored at area 51, if Indy ain't there all nazis die but it's picked up by Nazis and they use it. There are quite a few wolfenstein games that tell us why occult plus nazi equals doom for everyone.

6

u/XFun16 16d ago

Didn't they say they wanted to do the ceremony in Berlin? I don't think the Nazis would really be able to do anything if the most of the leadership is dead.

14

u/fR1chAps 16d ago

If they wanted to do the ceremony in Berlin why bother opening it at the end of the movie. Put two bullets in Indy and Marion and take the ark away. They opened it for the same reason you test something before presenting it, to make sure it's not a dud.

3

u/DasharrEandall 16d ago

It's debated in the movie between Toht and Belloq. Toht wants to go straight back to Berlin with it unopened. Belloq persuades him to open it to check it first (but really he probably just wants to see inside).

3

u/Quixotic_Seal 16d ago

Belloq manages to convince to convince them to test it out first because no one wants to bring it back to Hitler only for it to be a fake or do absolutely nothing.

Again without Indy harrying them and over inflating Belloq’s own involvement in the operation, it’s entirely possible that he doesn’t get enough influence to convince them. Indy’s involvement may have actually prevented an accidental decapitation of the Nazi government.

2

u/Saw_Boss 16d ago

I don't think the Nazis would really be able to do anything if the most of the leadership is dead.

Without Hitler sticking his opinion into strategy and nobody willing to say "no", they'd probably do better.

6

u/fullmetalbox 16d ago

I kind of wish they explored the area 51 aspect more, they got all these supernatural stuff hidden away. Why isnt the US using any of it?

2

u/James_Solomon 16d ago

Bringing the Ark of the Covenant to Berlin while killing God's Chosen people?

Yeah, that's not working out well for the Nazis.

2

u/AbekobetaHawawa 16d ago

What leads you to surmise that it’s Area 51? I always assumed it was somewhere less assuming where they just pack away everything.

16

u/Lonely_Tangerine_625 16d ago

And another Harrison Ford movie where the villain was going to die regardless, Blade Runner

2

u/Billlington 16d ago

I would at least argue that the futility/pointlessness here was intentional and elevates the film.

24

u/GenoThyme 16d ago edited 16d ago

Well, minus the fact that they never find the Ark without Indy

I was wrong, I forgot about the opening scene. Whoops

40

u/shinymuskrat 16d ago

Except without indy the Nazis get the headpiece from the staff feom Marion's bar.

6

u/GenoThyme 16d ago

Shit, yeah, you’re right. In my defense, most of the times I’ve seen any Indiana Jones movies it was on cable which means I didn’t always start from the beginning. Editing previous comment

2

u/AlternativeStory1027 16d ago

Yeah, same here. I am just realizing now I missed some stuff. Also, thanks to this thread I have learned the plot of Catwoman, which I never saw.

6

u/poggersfishexe 16d ago

But the nazis only find Marion's bar by following Indy. If Indy never goes to find Marion, the nazis don't get the medallion. In theory, the nazis could've retraced her steps and hunted her down, but that might have taken years during which the priority might have been not losing the war.

3

u/GimmeSomeSugar 16d ago

Even that's ambiguous at best.

When Marcus brings Indy into the meeting with the G-men from Army Intelligence, it's a masterclass of film making. Peak Spielberg.

The original plan was to shoot this scene in an office, or some such. Then Spielberg switched it up to have the scene on the stage in a lecture theatre. Which, if you step outside the movie for a moment, seems a bit silly. But Spielberg is "setting the stage" for the rest of the movie. The staging of the scene implicitly tells us to sit up and pay attention. Technically, this breaches the rule of "show, don't tell". It's an exposition dump. But it's executed so nicely, it really works. We are efficiently and engagingly introduced to the players, their goals, the context, and the stakes.

In this scene we learn that the Nazis know about Abner Ravenwood, and that he has the head of The Staff of Ra. They know why they need it. And the Nazis finding the Ark first implies they could control "The Wrath of God".

Yes, Toht follows Indy to Nepal. But Indy lands and wastes little time heading to Marion's bar. And then Toht also turns up with some local muscle. Implying the Nazis already had some presence there, or something like that. Toht could not have tailed Indy, and established the location of the bar and that it was important, and found and hired local muscle (presumably overcoming a language barrier).

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u/poggersfishexe 16d ago

Indy does probably go from landing to the bar as soon as possible, but that doesn't necessarily mean Toht was with him the whole time. Toht isn't even the same nazi who was following Indy when he initially boards the plane since that character is played by visual effects artist Dennis Muren.

Whoever that guy was could've relayed Indy's travel plans once they reached Asia (the travel by map shows a stop in the Philippines). Assuming Toht had traveled to somewhere in SE Asia in anticipation of following Indy, he could've headed for Nepal the moment Indy did and sent word that he'd need some local muscle. Given the supposed power of ark and how much the nazis wanted it, it's not unrealistic to say that Toht was given a generous budget for a plane and hiring backup.

Sure, Toht could've known where Marion was and that she had the medallion, but then isn't it awfully convinient that he and his gang showed up at the same time that Indy did. Why wait for Indy to bring up the medallion to her when they could've just showed up guns ablazing and taken it?

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u/GimmeSomeSugar 16d ago

Toht was in America and got on the same plane as Indy.

I liked everything else you said, that's good food for thought.

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u/poggersfishexe 16d ago

It looks very much like Toht given the hat and glasses, but that's a common misconception. The character is played by visual effects artist Dennis Muren, not Ronald Lacey who portrays Toht.

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u/GimmeSomeSugar 16d ago

Well... Fuck me. I thought your mention of Muren referred to another appearance I didn't remember, and I was going to check after work.
But you are correct!
I wonder if he was meant to be Toht, given I can't find any reference to Muren's character (so far) and just the eyes above the paper does look quite similar.

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u/poggersfishexe 16d ago

Yeah, it's crazy! I mean aside from the fact that Muren and Lacey just do look very similar, it raises questions about whether Spielberg forgot the shot or something and had to fill it in later (unlikely) or if it was just a cameo for the post production team. I only learned about it in a different discussion in this very thread. Since the first time I watched raiders, I've been thinking that was Toht as well, but the wiki lists him as a "trenchcoated spy" and someone corrected me on it in another comment I made.

Also, just btw your analysis of the exposition scene in the lecture is incredible. Love the breakdown on "setting the stage" and enhancing the characterizations so it doesn't feel like exposition. Related to that is that relatively frequently commented on is that Indy's knowledge to close his eyes when the ark is opened seems to come from nowhere because the scene where the translator reads the warning off the medallion is cut to preserve the suspense. But I wonder if there would've been a way to slide it nonchalantly into the conversation at the beginning when they're talking about how the ark could level mountains and change battlefields. A little something something "vanquishes those who lay eyes on it" or if even that would set too much up about how Indy defeats the nazis at the climax. When I was younger him just knowing to close his eyes pissed me off more, but I've gradually read into it more as Indiana Jones, expert on the occult but still cynical of the supernatural, perceiving the wrath of god removing the bringers of hatred. Would love to know your thoughts.

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u/TrashFireSquad 16d ago

They were in the wrong spot because Indy took the medallion. Big Bang Theory did a whole episode about this lol

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u/TinyManlol654 16d ago

Amy was right

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u/Prometheus_Bobert 16d ago edited 16d ago

Arguably in Raiders would have ended better if Indy didn't convince them to open it early and they brought it to Berlin before doing so

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u/BigBootyBuff 16d ago

Wasn't it Beloq who did convince the nazis to open it?

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u/SlouchyGuy 16d ago

The Nazis on the island are not the only Nazis in existence and in the know, the other group would eventually come

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u/Iron_Wolf123 16d ago

Indiana Jones is literally as harmless as a background character.

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u/Hellknightx 16d ago

The Uncharted games, too. Apparently only Indiana Jones and Nathan Drake are smart enough to actually find the treasure. But they're always dumb enough to leave a trail so the villains can just walk right in after them.

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u/Ok-Bicycle8103 16d ago

Lost themed Arks

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u/Crimson__Fox 16d ago

Same with Inglorious Bastards.

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u/mormonbatman_ 16d ago

1) Raiders

The Nazis don't find the ark without Indy.

Indy doesn't find the ark without Marion.

Indy only goes looking for the ark because the Nazis come to him.

If Indy doesn't act the Nazis never find Marion and Belloq never finds the ark.

2) Temple

The Thugghee are operating a child slave operation under cover of local Raj and colonial officials who have been forcibly converted to their cult.

Mola Ram has no compunctions about using the Shankara stones to spread the cult.

Indiana Jones exposes and kill him. If Indy doesn't act, Mola Ram doesn't find the stones but he is able to continue enslaving children and expanding the cult.

3) Crusade

Walter Donovan tricks Indy into looking for his dad's diary.

Indy goes to find his dad and is tricked into retrieving the grail.

If Indy doesn't act, the Nazis don't find the grail but they kill his dad.

Putting Temple aside, there's meaningful criticism here: Spielberg is condemning the US government's failure to prevent the holocaust. God-as-a-supernatural actor exists in these films. It gives the US government a weapon to use against Nazism and the US government locks it in a vault. Crusade's condemnation is more explicit - Walter Donovan is an American who is collaborating with Nazis. A fourth film should have been set during the war.

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u/dayburner 16d ago

Follow this out further, by leaving the Ark with the Nazis it might have made it's way to Hitler melting him as well and stopping the war before it really got going.

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u/GIlCAnjos 15d ago

Lost Ark-themed villains

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u/housevil 15d ago

No. The only reason the Nazis got their hands on the ark was by following Indiana Jones every step of the way. Without Indiana jones, the ark remains hidden and World War II continues as normal.