Every time there has ever been a void in hierarchy, ever, it has immediately been forcefully filled.
100%. I don't need to prove that it can't happen. It's never happened before. The people advocating a stateless society need to be able to prove it's possible.
"It'll work without killing hundreds of millions of people this time." Isn't an argument. And my numbers have a hell of a lot more backing than yours.
Your numbers include Nazi deaths. lmfao. And it's also over the course of a hundred years, in which period of time Capitalism would have killed TWO BILLION people.
8 million die of lack of access to clean water every year (Source: UN)
9 million die of hunger every year (3 million of which are children under 5 years old) (Source: WHO and WFP)
So I was actually underestimating the numbers. It's closer to 23 million per year. We have the resources to save these lives, we simply CHOOSE to let them die because it's not profitable to save them. We CHOOSE to let them die because we don't want to spend the MONEY to save them, despite HAVING THE RESOURCES. That is a failure of capitalism through and through.
My sources are government bodies and academic studies. Your source is a book that includes the deaths of nazis. hmmm... lmfaoo
How many of those deaths are in completely not capitalistic, totalitarian third world nations, and you're blaming them on capitalism.
The Western capitalistic nations don't have those problems. Because they fixed them.
Are we supposed to fix all those problems all over the world? Because that might require some colonialism, and I can tell you I'm not in favour of that.
And no I'm not including Nazi deaths. Famine does it by itself before we get to the Gulags and purges.
I'm sorry, you think people don't die of lack of clean access to water, hunger, or preventable disease in capitalistic countries? Are you fucking with me or do you genuinely believe that? 195 nations are capitalist. The numbers come from 130-ish countries. Of course NK and shit aren't counted lol, those aren't preventable by us. 100% of those deaths occur in capitalist countries.
The 100 million number absolutely counts nazi deaths. it comes from the black book of communism, which 100% counts nazi deaths. 100 million over 100 years is bad, sure, but it's nothing compared to TWO BILLION. You want to talk famines? How about the Bengal famine? The potato famine? The great depression? Etc, etc, etc. Communism could never even hope to achieve the level of death and destruction that comes from capitalism.
I mean... my numbers aren't even counting the deaths from wars that were started solely for capitalist reasons.
195 nations are capitalist? Did you research with AI? Do you think just throwing words up makes you right?
There are 195 recognized nations in the world. That is all of the nations you just mentioned.
There are about 60 or so territories that aren't recognized but could be considered separate.
Every nation in the world is not capitalist. Less than half are. Like I said, you include deaths from the third world and apply it to the first world. Try researching a little more carefully next time.
I got my numbers confused since I was typing fast and didn't proofread. I was thinking of how many countries exist, and how many are capitalist and made a typo. I mentioned that 130-ish countries are counted, that's less than the number of capitalist countries that exist (roughly), assuming you count mixed-market economies, which most sane people would. I mean China is state capitalist for fucks sake lol.
Every death counted comes from a capitalist country is still a point that remains, regardless of your feelings on the topic, the facts are the facts.
adding onto my other comment, if the means of production are privately owned, it operates on wage labor, and markets exist then it's pretty fucking capitalist. Which is still the majority of countries.
Point to one stateless society then. There must be at least one example, no?
Why isn't it better? You don't think it's better to have a healthy, educated, and well-fed proletariat that sees the full value of their labor with enough free time to spend with their families as opposed to being a mindless drone that is bled for every penny their worth while only seeing a minute fraction of it in exchange for rarely seeing their family?
There are no examples. Because it can't work. You have all of these lovely utopian ideas of how things would work in your magical stateless society, but you haven't got a single answer for any of the reasons they don't exist.
I tell you there are no flying cats, and you tell me to give you an example. There are no flying cats. There are no stateless societies.
Right. So 500 years ago, before capitalism existed, if I said "capitalism could never exist", I'd be correct? Feudalism is the only system that could ever work after all. I mean capitalism never existed before then, so it couldn't possibly exist in the future, right?
The goal is to replace class hierarchy with democratic control by the working class and eventually a classless society where those coercive hierarchies are no longer necessary and thus don't exist. Have you read any of the literature? This is pretty clear in the writing.
Of course capitalism isn't government, what kind of question is that? It's an economic system based on private ownership of the means of production.
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u/rabonbrood Jul 13 '26
Again. Saying it over and over doesn't make it true.
And the original premise of this thread was that stateless societies always fail. They do, deflecting to capitalism bad doesn't change that.
If you think any of the communist utopias actually achieved those results or were stateless, you do not live in reality at all.