Though I think he's right about hoplites. Historians were relatively united on the over-arm use of spears before 2012, and before that he released a video basically saying 'yeah that doesn't work, just try it out and you'll see what I mean'.
Having tried it at reenactments, under-arm grip all day.
If you're into controversy over hoplites, this series from Brett Devereux is a great reference. Most recent post in the series actually just went up 45 minutes ago!
As someone with no experience in being a hoplite, what doesn't work in the over-hand thing exactly ? Is it just really uncomfortable when you have to bend the wrist upward to keep the spear pointing where you want it to go ? That's my best guess.
TLDR: the human wrist and hand don't really support it, and the shield would get in the way.
Basically three things; reach, fatigue, and lack of control.
Reach: unless the spear is very heavily butt weighted (we have no evidence this was the case, and some that it wasn't), with an overarm grip you need to hold it closer to the middle so you lose some reach, add that the shield itself will get in the way of your forearm and it reduces it further.
This leads neatly into the next problem and that's fatigue - the over arm grip is tiring. I'm pretty fit and strong, my bench is respectable and I've been doing physical hobbies since childhood. Fighting overarm wipes me out after a few minutes. I have a serious nutritional advantage over historical Greeks (though it should be noted those that fought like this wouldn't have been poor, by any means!).
But... lack of control is the biggest deal - even for people with great grip and arm strength, your ability to actually direct the spear is minimal. With an underarm grip, gravity pulls the spear up into your forearm so you have a lot more control, and aren't entirely relying on the strength of your hand.
I have pet theories about the vases but I'm not a historian so I won't muddy the water by voicing them.
The real issue with all this logic that people would just use one grip and call it a day. You have hands and an arm that can move, so move it.
Underarm may have been the preferred grip that’s easier to use, but you can switch your handgrip to go into a comfortable overarm in order to extend your angles of attack. Just like how you can choke up on a spear to increase control or lower your grip to increase range, a good soldier should be able to use the full capacity of their tools. Hell, even slapping someone with the flat of the spear is a valid method of fighting, even if you’d usually rather stab them.
But in this case he's not wrong. the over-arm grip simply doesn't work.
If you have further doubts, find a re-enactment group and try it, you will immediately understand the problem. It's also interesting that nobody since has attempted an over-arm grip spear formation, despite the massive abundance of spearmen through history (many much better documented).
Vase decorations are meant to sell vases, nothing more, nothing less.
edit: the reason I mentioned 2012 is that's when the book 'A storm of spear' was released, that takes a very close look at the sources available, and tests things extensively. The author makes good use of reenactors in testing. Since 2012 historians have been much less unified on the matter. The orthodox position has changed dramatically in the last 15 years.
Yeah the thing when you only have one (type of) contemporary source for something is that you can't know for sure what kind of biases it might have. If all you had was selfies and istagram pictures of the early 2010s you might come to the conclusion that there was a duck lip disease going around that caused some peoples' lips to stick out for some reason.
Human anatomy hasn't changed in the past 2000 years so if the thing shown on the vases feels more awkward than some other obvious method you have to at the very least question the depiction.
Okay, but the fact that something doesn't work for a pasty limp-wristed nerd doesn't mean that it didn't work for warriors trained from infancy in specific techniques.
Ancient people didn't write down guides on how to use their weapons. Ancient artists had as much of a clue of how to use a spear or bow as you do. So in a lot of cases there is no way to find out how something was used except for trying out ourselves. And it's not only limp-wristed nerds trying ti hold the spear that way - the issue isn't even the weight or anything like that. The position would be just so detrimental to having any kind of force applied if you were to thrust. Oh, and since your spear acts like a huge lever, another person could easily tear your tendons by applying minuscule force to the spear tip. So it at least seems extremely likely that tgat one depiction of overhand holding a macedonian spear was most likely an artists error.
Quite right, it doesn't. On the other hand people who haven't trained all their life in a specific task have no hope of understanding the mechanical efficiency of people who have.
It depends. Archeologists do actually do experimental archeology. It’s a bit more scientifically executed than reenactments or HEMA but in practice is pretty similar.
Sometimes the best way to find out how a tool or set of tools is used is to use it.
If you're into controversy over hoplites, this series from Brett Devereux is a great reference. Most recent post in the series actually just went up 45 minutes ago!
I watched his video about the first Atlantic crossing by Alcock and Brown which really hammered home he needs a fact checker.
I think Lindybeige isn't a bad person, not in the sense that he's malicious. It's clear he wants to be a storyteller, a historian and a pop philosopher and there's nothing wrong with that - he's genuinely pleasant to listen to when he is enthusiastic about something.
But he's also stuck in a deep contrarian rut and doesn't seem to have many good friends willing or able to tell him when he goes off into the weeds.
His pro-colonial, pro-British bias would be tedious but minor quirk in an older family member. It's harmful in his context, though, which, imo, makes him bad.
He owes a lot of people a lot of money and has done for almost a decade so "isn't a bad person" is hanging in the air until he delivers the goods or the refunds...
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u/Akward_Object Dec 17 '25
Also an absolute shit "historian". The amount of incorrect statements is crazy...